here's a thought: whenever you die on SC just slap yourself really hard.
Punishable death... *goes away mumbling.
Haha...
Yeah basically i think that walking all the way from the waypoint to where you last were before you died is punishing enough... I mean it's the most annoying thing ever.
Well, it's quite simple... Death will be punishable:
-> You will most likely fail or do poorly your Nephalem Trial if you die (many of them will be timed in a way)
-> Durability lost (gold)
-> Time lost
-> Goblin escape
Someone asked the question "how that is fun" if you have a harsher death penalty. Well, in my opinion it just adds some excitement to game play if "staying alive" feels like it's worth something. If death includes some penalty, not dying over a longer period becomes some sort of achievement.
That being said, death should not feel like it's too discouraging. I personally felt that a 10% XP loss in D2 was quite annoying and sometimes I just Alt+F4'd and stopped playing for a while. For someone who's not playing "efficient", 10% XP are equivalent of days or weeks of time on high levels; for a credit card WW barb 10% XP are just a couple of minutes. Same with repair costs - there are billionaires in the game who wouldn't care if every repair was 1 million gold; for some even the 50k repair bill is a heavy burden right now.
Therefore, "gaining less" instead of "losing stuff" sounds better and is a fair solution, in my opinion. Losing a NV stack might not necessarily be the best way here - again, for some people gaining 5 stacks takes 2 minutes, for some it takes 20 minutes. What if you only have 2, 1, or even zero NV stacks? Brute force galore. I think the best way to go about this is a debuff that take its toll on efficiency. Every death reduces bonus XP, bonus MF, and bonus GF by 25%. If you die four times, you lose all benefits and gain only base XP/MF/GF. After 10 minutes without death, the debuff disappears.
what if you want to kill a keywarden and you died right before you got to him and he is really far from the waypoint? Well now you gotta go look for a champ / elite pack and then walk all the way back to the keywarden... not to mention the possibility that you might have already cleared like 99% of the act and finding a pack is like the hardest, most time consuming thing ever.
That's too harsh and too annoying. I still think that the fact that you have to walk like an idiot for a couple of minutes sometimes is punishing enough.
what if you want to kill a keywarden and you died right before you got to him and he is really far from the waypoint? Well now you gotta go look for a champ / elite pack and then walk all the way back to the keywarden... not to mention the possibility that you might have already cleared like 99% of the act and finding a pack is like the hardest, most time consuming thing ever.
That's too harsh and too annoying. I still think that the fact that you have to walk like an idiot for a couple of minutes sometimes is punishing enough.
I agree Jamoose, we certainly need a way to discourage dying but taking NV stacks away just isn't the right way to do it. As you said it's just too annoying.
It's hard to discuss a topic like this when the game is in it's current state. Some ways they could discourage dying and their pros and cons.
Increase repair bill:
Pros - Yes that's right we all remember the hefty bill we would need to foot after dying before it got a good hit with the nerf bat! There's nothing worse than getting a big +50k repair bill (the value can change I'm just using 50k as an example)
Cons - If you're bad or unlucky you'll become a very poor person.
Take away XP:
Pros - I don't know anyone who likes getting their hard earned XP taken away form them.
Cons - Bound to get some anger in the 70+ paragon levels. Depending if it's percentage based that is.
Increased gear damage:
Pros - More visits to the vendor/Hagrid to repair
Cons - To be honest I cant think of any cons, but if you can think of any let me know!
That's all I can think of for now, it's a bit late. I'll add some more if I think of any tomorrow!
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Bashiok - Blizzard Representative - 08/01/2011 -"So how many skill combinations are there now? Well taking into account 6 active skills, all the rune combinations, and 3 passives we currently expect each class to have roughly 2,285,814,795,264 different build combinations."
"Hey, I thought you'd like the witty irony of grub-on-glowie violence!"
what if you want to kill a keywarden and you died right before you got to him and he is really far from the waypoint? Well now you gotta go look for a champ / elite pack and then walk all the way back to the keywarden... not to mention the possibility that you might have already cleared like 99% of the act and finding a pack is like the hardest, most time consuming thing ever.
That's too harsh and too annoying. I still think that the fact that you have to walk like an idiot for a couple of minutes sometimes is punishing enough.
There was an idea floating around to allow higher than 5 NV stacks but with a large diminishing return beyond 5. If we allow more than 5 we can still use the NV stack penalty upon death but never lower than 5.
what if you want to kill a keywarden and you died right before you got to him and he is really far from the waypoint? Well now you gotta go look for a champ / elite pack and then walk all the way back to the keywarden... not to mention the possibility that you might have already cleared like 99% of the act and finding a pack is like the hardest, most time consuming thing ever.
That's too harsh and too annoying. I still think that the fact that you have to walk like an idiot for a couple of minutes sometimes is punishing enough.
There was an idea floating around to allow higher than 5 NV stacks but with a large diminishing return beyond 5. If we allow more than 5 we can still use the NV stack penalty upon death but never lower than 5.
Yeah my bad for not reading through the whole thread before replying. But yeah i can see the logic behind this. I think i had a similar idea posted somewhere once too
what if you want to kill a keywarden and you died right before you got to him and he is really far from the waypoint? Well now you gotta go look for a champ / elite pack and then walk all the way back to the keywarden... not to mention the possibility that you might have already cleared like 99% of the act and finding a pack is like the hardest, most time consuming thing ever.
That's too harsh and too annoying. I still think that the fact that you have to walk like an idiot for a couple of minutes sometimes is punishing enough.
Are you replying to my idea or the "losing NV stack" idea? For exactly that reason I suggested to have -x% XP/F/GF; you can still kill the keywarden with NV5 and get your key drop, as it's not affected by MF; but you'll get less XP/MF/GF. If you want full XP you'll have to wait 10 minutes. Let's add a bit more spice to it: it's 10 minutes if you do nothing, or the debuff disappears after killing x monsters (x being an arbitrary number). The game should not encourage idling, of course. But a death penalty should be a penalty.
For rich people with multiple billions of gold, death is absolutely meaningless at the moment.
Increase repair bill:
Pros - Yes that's right we all remember the hefty bill we would need to foot after dying before it got a good hit with the nerf bat! There's nothing worse than getting a big +50k repair bill (the value can change I'm just using 50k as an example)
Cons - If you're bad or unlucky you'll become a very poor person.
Take away XP:
Pros - I don't know anyone who likes getting their hard earned XP taken away form them.
Cons - Bound to get some anger in the 70+ paragon levels. Depending if it's percentage based that is.
Increased gear damage:
Pros - More visits to the vendor/Hagrid to repair
Cons - To be honest I cant think of any cons, but if you can think of any let me know!
That's all I can think of for now, it's a bit late. I'll add some more if I think of any tomorrow!
I'm not sure what the difference between increased repair bill and increased gear damage is. You mean 20% instead of 10% durability loss for each death?
All these three ideas have the problem that they don't scale. Some of my very very casually playing friends, and some of the self-found players I know, think that the repair costs in the game as of now are already quite high. Of course, anyone who has used the AH for a bit and has a couple of millions now doesn't care anymore. And there are people with billions of gold; even if a full repair was 1 million (which would ruin most players) they still wouldn't perceive it as enough punishment to say "ouch" when they die. Same with XP - some people are gaining 400m XP/hour, but I know people who have an average XP gain of 10-20m/hour.
If you really want to revamp death punishment - and this is what this thread is about - you need to look for a solution that scales, as the gap between casuals and high-end gamers is just crazy.
You're definitely right bagstone! Yeah I just read through what I typed earlier, it didn't make a whole lot of sense!
Oh well back to lurking this topic!
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Bashiok - Blizzard Representative - 08/01/2011 -"So how many skill combinations are there now? Well taking into account 6 active skills, all the rune combinations, and 3 passives we currently expect each class to have roughly 2,285,814,795,264 different build combinations."
"Hey, I thought you'd like the witty irony of grub-on-glowie violence!"
They should bring back old repair costs imo (from death, not from wear-and-tear). Maybe even go as far as adding a small exp loss (without being able to lose lvls though).
People complaining that they were spending more gold to play than they were gaining were simply in the wrong difficulty/Act/MP-level for their own sake.
If you're dying more than you're making, it's a very clear message from the game designer that you're doing something wrong. Specially in what are supposed to be the "higher difficulties".
But Zero, with only a small exp loss, without being able to lose levels, what would be the point? You don't lose a level, there's no additional fear. All it does is hinder you from getting the next level, and enough time put in to make that up, and that death penalty is nullified.
I don't remember what exactly the old repair costs were, but I do remember them to be pretty steep, and I wouldn't mind them returning to a steep place. As I recall, in Diablo 2, repair costs for really high end gear was extremely steep, on top of the "toll" death took just for the death itself. Back then, one single death could you over a hundred thousand or more, between death penalty AND repair costs. Now that gold amounts and stats and such are so much higher, they could multiply all repair costs by 10, and it would be fine.
But I fully agree with that second statement...anyone complaining they were spending more gold to play than they were gaining were playing far too high up on the difficulty scale. My Monk handles MP7 with a couple deaths per run, which isn't too bad. If I'm extremely careful, I can avoid death altogether, but MP6 can be a bit easy, which is why I keep him at MP7.
Dying too often should ALWAYS be a marker that a player is doing something wrong, and should be changing something up to prevent it.
It makes sense, I just happen to have a different opinion. Don't lurk, keep contributing :-) Fight for your idea, c'mon!
But the best idea's come from lurking! I think...
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Bashiok - Blizzard Representative - 08/01/2011 -"So how many skill combinations are there now? Well taking into account 6 active skills, all the rune combinations, and 3 passives we currently expect each class to have roughly 2,285,814,795,264 different build combinations."
"Hey, I thought you'd like the witty irony of grub-on-glowie violence!"
If you die you cannot gain any experience for 2 minutes after your death.
Efficiency wise it would make sense to stick to an MP level you can survive in and not try to leach in higher MP multilayer games..
If this was the case then it would might make sense for me currently to drop back down to MP8 solo rather than MP10 solo as I die once or twice in a 30min run on MP10.
Any death penalty that give people reason go afk for x time is badly designed.
Any death penalty should do something that incentivizes you to get out and kill mobs again to get it back.
If you die you cannot gain any experience for 2 minutes after your death.
Efficiency wise it would make sense to stick to an MP level you can survive in and not try to leach in higher MP multilayer games..
If this was the case then it would might make sense for me currently to drop back down to MP8 solo rather than MP10 solo as I die once or twice in a 30min run on MP10.
What are you expecting the majority of the players to do if this was implemented?
would you expect people to keep playing the same difficulty levels? or decrease it?
They would be a lot more cautious in determining the MP level they are best suited for... rather than people punching above their weight (which is sort of the current case with MP10)
In either case, what would you expect people did for those 2 minutes? would they continue as nothing has happened? or idle for 2 minutes?
Personally, I am still skeptic about such an implementation, as I still feel it encourages people to a gameplay of the following pattern. "I do my town business when I die". I do not think you should feel there is a specific time you should go back to town, and especially not because of a debuff.
Players should go back to town because they have business they want to take care of, and not for any other reason.
Ok so what if we shortened the timer. 1 minute of no exp.. or 30 seconds of no exp gain after death, to maybe avoid having extended down time in town?
The issue I have with the Nephalem stack idea is that it will cause your groups to have mismatched NV stacks.
Lets say a group of 4 do a Key Warden Run, you are all going along getting NV stacks and you died once, some else died twice so: P1 (you)= 4 NV stacks, P2 = 5, P3 = 3, P4 = 5
P2 and P4 have engaged the keywarden and take him down in 20 seconds, you and player 3 get no key "thanks guys"
Or you have a nice group where you all keep trying to help P3 get to 5 NV stacks but every time you come across an elite he dies (if not more than once...)
The whole group has 5 NV except player 3 and now his deaths punish everyone in the group...
I'm tending to agree with those who say that there shouldn't be a death penalty at all.
With areas such as Arreat Crater, if you have to run all the way back because you've died outside the entrance to the next level, that's one HELL (lol) of a walk! You lose time you could have spent farming, it's just overall unpleasant.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Bashiok - Blizzard Representative - 08/01/2011 -"So how many skill combinations are there now? Well taking into account 6 active skills, all the rune combinations, and 3 passives we currently expect each class to have roughly 2,285,814,795,264 different build combinations."
"Hey, I thought you'd like the witty irony of grub-on-glowie violence!"
I'm tending to agree with those who say that there shouldn't be a death penalty at all.
With areas such as Arreat Crater, if you have to run all the way back because you've died outside the entrance to the next level, that's one HELL (lol) of a walk! You lose time you could have spent farming, it's just overall unpleasant.
I agree with this comment. I, personally, don't wish the game to be "punishing." If I am a fresh 60 and try to do mp 10 in my leveling gear, then I deserve to die a bunch until I figure it out. The fact that it takes me 60 days and 5million gold to gain a single paragon level is enough. I think a rational person playing the game will say, "hey, I died 10 times on the first section in mp 10. Maybe I should tone it down a bit..." Through trial and error, they may find the right mp/spec combo that works for them.
TL;DR: Let the individuals pride and stupidity be the punishing factor, not the game mechanics themselves.
Same as now for reviving on the checkpoint. High gold cost to revive on corpse and be invisible for 5 seconds (for repositioning). 1 NV stack cost to revive on corpse with a 10 second invulnerability window. 5% EXP bar cost to instantly blow up the elite
With the changes coming whereby it is intended good play as well as overgearing will be possible, therefore making it more viable for undergeared players to play a higher MP the idea of a more severe death penalty goes against this.
Personally in SC I like playing on a higher MP than people would probably suggest for my gear level as I like the additional challenge, a more severe death penalty will discourage those that enjoy playing like this and just push more players into the "I must be 100% optimal at all times and never ever ever die" mentality.
There is never going to be a solution that will seem punishing enough for the very rich while not seeming overly harsh for those that play self found.
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Haha...
Yeah basically i think that walking all the way from the waypoint to where you last were before you died is punishing enough... I mean it's the most annoying thing ever.
-> You will most likely fail or do poorly your Nephalem Trial if you die (many of them will be timed in a way)
-> Durability lost (gold)
-> Time lost
-> Goblin escape
That's good enough already IMO.
Someone asked the question "how that is fun" if you have a harsher death penalty. Well, in my opinion it just adds some excitement to game play if "staying alive" feels like it's worth something. If death includes some penalty, not dying over a longer period becomes some sort of achievement.
That being said, death should not feel like it's too discouraging. I personally felt that a 10% XP loss in D2 was quite annoying and sometimes I just Alt+F4'd and stopped playing for a while. For someone who's not playing "efficient", 10% XP are equivalent of days or weeks of time on high levels; for a credit card WW barb 10% XP are just a couple of minutes. Same with repair costs - there are billionaires in the game who wouldn't care if every repair was 1 million gold; for some even the 50k repair bill is a heavy burden right now.
Therefore, "gaining less" instead of "losing stuff" sounds better and is a fair solution, in my opinion. Losing a NV stack might not necessarily be the best way here - again, for some people gaining 5 stacks takes 2 minutes, for some it takes 20 minutes. What if you only have 2, 1, or even zero NV stacks? Brute force galore. I think the best way to go about this is a debuff that take its toll on efficiency. Every death reduces bonus XP, bonus MF, and bonus GF by 25%. If you die four times, you lose all benefits and gain only base XP/MF/GF. After 10 minutes without death, the debuff disappears.
what if you want to kill a keywarden and you died right before you got to him and he is really far from the waypoint? Well now you gotta go look for a champ / elite pack and then walk all the way back to the keywarden... not to mention the possibility that you might have already cleared like 99% of the act and finding a pack is like the hardest, most time consuming thing ever.
That's too harsh and too annoying. I still think that the fact that you have to walk like an idiot for a couple of minutes sometimes is punishing enough.
It's hard to discuss a topic like this when the game is in it's current state. Some ways they could discourage dying and their pros and cons.
Increase repair bill:
Pros - Yes that's right we all remember the hefty bill we would need to foot after dying before it got a good hit with the nerf bat! There's nothing worse than getting a big +50k repair bill (the value can change I'm just using 50k as an example)
Cons - If you're bad or unlucky you'll become a very poor person.
Take away XP:
Pros - I don't know anyone who likes getting their hard earned XP taken away form them.
Cons - Bound to get some anger in the 70+ paragon levels. Depending if it's percentage based that is.
Increased gear damage:
Pros - More visits to the vendor/Hagrid to repair
Cons - To be honest I cant think of any cons, but if you can think of any let me know!
That's all I can think of for now, it's a bit late. I'll add some more if I think of any tomorrow!
Bashiok - Blizzard Representative - 08/01/2011 -"So how many skill combinations are there now? Well taking into account 6 active skills, all the rune combinations, and 3 passives we currently expect each class to have roughly 2,285,814,795,264 different build combinations."
"Hey, I thought you'd like the witty irony of grub-on-glowie violence!"
There was an idea floating around to allow higher than 5 NV stacks but with a large diminishing return beyond 5. If we allow more than 5 we can still use the NV stack penalty upon death but never lower than 5.
Yeah my bad for not reading through the whole thread before replying. But yeah i can see the logic behind this. I think i had a similar idea posted somewhere once too
Are you replying to my idea or the "losing NV stack" idea? For exactly that reason I suggested to have -x% XP/F/GF; you can still kill the keywarden with NV5 and get your key drop, as it's not affected by MF; but you'll get less XP/MF/GF. If you want full XP you'll have to wait 10 minutes. Let's add a bit more spice to it: it's 10 minutes if you do nothing, or the debuff disappears after killing x monsters (x being an arbitrary number). The game should not encourage idling, of course. But a death penalty should be a penalty.
For rich people with multiple billions of gold, death is absolutely meaningless at the moment.
I'm not sure what the difference between increased repair bill and increased gear damage is. You mean 20% instead of 10% durability loss for each death?
All these three ideas have the problem that they don't scale. Some of my very very casually playing friends, and some of the self-found players I know, think that the repair costs in the game as of now are already quite high. Of course, anyone who has used the AH for a bit and has a couple of millions now doesn't care anymore. And there are people with billions of gold; even if a full repair was 1 million (which would ruin most players) they still wouldn't perceive it as enough punishment to say "ouch" when they die. Same with XP - some people are gaining 400m XP/hour, but I know people who have an average XP gain of 10-20m/hour.
If you really want to revamp death punishment - and this is what this thread is about - you need to look for a solution that scales, as the gap between casuals and high-end gamers is just crazy.
Oh well back to lurking this topic!
Bashiok - Blizzard Representative - 08/01/2011 -"So how many skill combinations are there now? Well taking into account 6 active skills, all the rune combinations, and 3 passives we currently expect each class to have roughly 2,285,814,795,264 different build combinations."
"Hey, I thought you'd like the witty irony of grub-on-glowie violence!"
Those people don't die anyways, so who are you trying to effect here?
But Zero, with only a small exp loss, without being able to lose levels, what would be the point? You don't lose a level, there's no additional fear. All it does is hinder you from getting the next level, and enough time put in to make that up, and that death penalty is nullified.
I don't remember what exactly the old repair costs were, but I do remember them to be pretty steep, and I wouldn't mind them returning to a steep place. As I recall, in Diablo 2, repair costs for really high end gear was extremely steep, on top of the "toll" death took just for the death itself. Back then, one single death could you over a hundred thousand or more, between death penalty AND repair costs. Now that gold amounts and stats and such are so much higher, they could multiply all repair costs by 10, and it would be fine.
But I fully agree with that second statement...anyone complaining they were spending more gold to play than they were gaining were playing far too high up on the difficulty scale. My Monk handles MP7 with a couple deaths per run, which isn't too bad. If I'm extremely careful, I can avoid death altogether, but MP6 can be a bit easy, which is why I keep him at MP7.
Dying too often should ALWAYS be a marker that a player is doing something wrong, and should be changing something up to prevent it.
Bashiok - Blizzard Representative - 08/01/2011 -"So how many skill combinations are there now? Well taking into account 6 active skills, all the rune combinations, and 3 passives we currently expect each class to have roughly 2,285,814,795,264 different build combinations."
"Hey, I thought you'd like the witty irony of grub-on-glowie violence!"
If you die you cannot gain any experience for 2 minutes after your death.
Efficiency wise it would make sense to stick to an MP level you can survive in and not try to leach in higher MP multilayer games..
If this was the case then it would might make sense for me currently to drop back down to MP8 solo rather than MP10 solo as I die once or twice in a 30min run on MP10.
Any death penalty should do something that incentivizes you to get out and kill mobs again to get it back.
They would be a lot more cautious in determining the MP level they are best suited for... rather than people punching above their weight (which is sort of the current case with MP10)
Ok so what if we shortened the timer. 1 minute of no exp.. or 30 seconds of no exp gain after death, to maybe avoid having extended down time in town?
The issue I have with the Nephalem stack idea is that it will cause your groups to have mismatched NV stacks.
Lets say a group of 4 do a Key Warden Run, you are all going along getting NV stacks and you died once, some else died twice so: P1 (you)= 4 NV stacks, P2 = 5, P3 = 3, P4 = 5
P2 and P4 have engaged the keywarden and take him down in 20 seconds, you and player 3 get no key "thanks guys"
Or you have a nice group where you all keep trying to help P3 get to 5 NV stacks but every time you come across an elite he dies (if not more than once...)
The whole group has 5 NV except player 3 and now his deaths punish everyone in the group...
With areas such as Arreat Crater, if you have to run all the way back because you've died outside the entrance to the next level, that's one HELL (lol) of a walk! You lose time you could have spent farming, it's just overall unpleasant.
Bashiok - Blizzard Representative - 08/01/2011 -"So how many skill combinations are there now? Well taking into account 6 active skills, all the rune combinations, and 3 passives we currently expect each class to have roughly 2,285,814,795,264 different build combinations."
"Hey, I thought you'd like the witty irony of grub-on-glowie violence!"
I agree with this comment. I, personally, don't wish the game to be "punishing." If I am a fresh 60 and try to do mp 10 in my leveling gear, then I deserve to die a bunch until I figure it out. The fact that it takes me 60 days and 5million gold to gain a single paragon level is enough. I think a rational person playing the game will say, "hey, I died 10 times on the first section in mp 10. Maybe I should tone it down a bit..." Through trial and error, they may find the right mp/spec combo that works for them.
TL;DR: Let the individuals pride and stupidity be the punishing factor, not the game mechanics themselves.
Same as now for reviving on the checkpoint. High gold cost to revive on corpse and be invisible for 5 seconds (for repositioning). 1 NV stack cost to revive on corpse with a 10 second invulnerability window. 5% EXP bar cost to instantly blow up the elite
Personally in SC I like playing on a higher MP than people would probably suggest for my gear level as I like the additional challenge, a more severe death penalty will discourage those that enjoy playing like this and just push more players into the "I must be 100% optimal at all times and never ever ever die" mentality.
There is never going to be a solution that will seem punishing enough for the very rich while not seeming overly harsh for those that play self found.