Wyatt Chang on Combat Philosphy

  • #41
    Quote from Karandor

    Quote from maka

    Quote from Bagstone

    Quote from RasAlgethi24

    Originally Posted by (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)

    Regarding the existing monster affixes. We'll be keeping an eye on these. For example, Reflects Damage internally has been changed to a flat amount rather than a percentage. I don't know if it's going to ship this way but that's the current internal version.


    WTF? That sounds horrible. So Reflect Damage would just be another flat damage type like Plagued or Desecrator. I hope this get changed back, I actually think the current RD ain't that bad.


    Agreed. As much as RD was a pain in the ass sometimes, it is a unique and interesting mechanic and it should stay that way.


    RD is not interesting it is nothing more than a gear check. Got enough LS/resists/armor to survive? Ok ignore it completely. Don't have enough to survive? Have fun waiting for the pulses or insta-gib yourself.

    My friends and I are at the point where we can ignore it on MP10. No idea why people like reflect except to laugh at people who haven't hit the gear level to ignore it or something.


    But life steal is being removed/nerfed, so I don't see how this is relevant for the upcoming expansion.
  • #42
    ^It's relevant because without LS, its impossible to mitigate against reflect damage. They have to reduce damage reflect somehow with the LS nerfs. If you have high dps even with extremely high levels of mitigation, without LS you would pretty much instantly kill yourself.

    I like the change. Exploding palm is one of my favorite monk skills, always hated instantly killing yourself if you a palm explosion gets reflected.

  • #43
    Quote from RasAlgethi24

    ^It's relevant because without LS, its impossible to mitigate against reflect damage. They have to reduce damage reflect somehow with the LS nerfs. If you have high dps even with extremely high levels of mitigation, without LS you would pretty much instantly kill yourself.

    I like the change. Exploding palm is one of my favorite monk skills, always hated instantly killing yourself if you a palm explosion gets reflected.


    I meant his post was irrelevant, not the actual discussion about life steal. He's complaining that reflect damage is an easy monster affix to counter but is referencing life steal to back up his claim; but Wyatt, and the people that are referencing Wyatt by discussing reflect as a flat damage return, are talking about changes for RoS, not gameplay right now. Since gameplay in RoS probably won't include life steal, or it will be greatly reduced in efficiency, his post about how easy it is to ignore reflect damage with enough life steal is pretty irrelevant when we are all discussing upcoming changes where life steal more than likely won't exist.

    I think we're both on the same page, I probably just wasn't quite clear about what in his post I was critiquing.
  • #44
    Quote from RasAlgethi24

    If you have high dps even with extremely high levels of mitigation, without LS you would pretty much instantly kill yourself.



    That's the whole point: the DPS of players was growing at a much larger rate than their mitigation, namely via de CC/CD combo (which they are apparently nerfing). That's gonna change, so I expect RD to stay as a % rather than a flat value.
  • #45
    Quote from Bagstone

    Quote from RasAlgethi24

    Originally Posted by (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)

    Regarding the existing monster affixes. We'll be keeping an eye on these. For example, Reflects Damage internally has been changed to a flat amount rather than a percentage. I don't know if it's going to ship this way but that's the current internal version.


    WTF? That sounds horrible. So Reflect Damage would just be another flat damage type like Plagued or Desecrator. I hope this get changed back, I actually think the current RD ain't that bad.


    This, as others have pointed out, is probably a sure sign that Life Leech is going to disappear, or be severely nerfed and simply a consequence of that change. Granted, it's speculative, but I can't see any other reason why they'd be touching reflects damage at this point, except for the fact that they don't like Life Leech - and that seems reasonable given Wyatt's post about incoming damage versus healing.
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  • #46
    Quote from maka

    Quote from RasAlgethi24

    If you have high dps even with extremely high levels of mitigation, without LS you would pretty much instantly kill yourself.




    That's the whole point: the DPS of players was growing at a much larger rate than their mitigation, namely via de CC/CD combo (which they are apparently nerfing). That's gonna change, so I expect RD to stay as a % rather than a flat value.


    Even with the caps, with the new much higher dps weapons and higher stat roll lv70 items, DPS will go up, not down. Even higher dps without LS? Instant death against damage reflect if it stays as is. Doesn't really matter even if you have extreme levels of mitigation.
  • #47
    Why are you not considering that they might just fiddle with the % of damage reflected? I think that's a possible solution.
  • #48
    Quote from maka

    Why are you not considering that they might just fiddle with the % of damage reflected? I think that's a possible solution.


    It would have to be a pretty drastic cut. I'm not certain but I believe damage reflect currently is 10% back. They would have to cut it to like 1-2%.
  • #49
    It has to be remembered too that the reflect damage aura turns on and off... so if it is punishing when it is on you will really have to time your attacks better.
  • #50
    Quote from maka

    Why are you not considering that they might just fiddle with the % of damage reflected? I think that's a possible solution.


    Because it's worse than a flat dmg as a solution.

    We already know they don't want any 1 shot mechanics, at the very least on normal elites, and that they are focusing on more constant dmg(than we even have now) and less burst. They aren't going to make it so reflect dmg can turn on and you kill yourself a % dmg will certainly do that.

    That would make it so early on when you're gearing up, it's a free mod that may as well not be there. Meanwhile when you're at the gear ceiling, you 1 shot yourself. So what they would have to do is impose more rules to make that solution work. That seems like more work for little gain.

    Besides a flat dmg increase makes your character feel more powerful as it gets gear. Instead of the % which makes you feel weaker and goes against the whole idea of the game. The only way you can outgear a scaling percentage of incoming dmg is to have a scaling percentage of incoming healing. Which they don't want anymore.
  • #51
    Quote from riptide

    Quote from maka

    Why are you not considering that they might just fiddle with the % of damage reflected? I think that's a possible solution.


    Because it's worse than a flat dmg as a solution.

    We already know they don't want any 1 shot mechanics, at the very least on normal elites, and that they are focusing on more constant dmg(than we even have now) and less burst. They aren't going to make it so reflect dmg can turn on and you kill yourself a % dmg will certainly do that.

    That would make it so early on when you're gearing up, it's a free mod that may as well not be there. Meanwhile when you're at the gear ceiling, you 1 shot yourself. So what they would have to do is impose more rules to make that solution work. That seems like more work for little gain.

    Besides a flat dmg increase makes your character feel more powerful as it gets gear. Instead of the % which makes you feel weaker and goes against the whole idea of the game. The only way you can outgear a scaling percentage of incoming dmg is to have a scaling percentage of incoming healing. Which they don't want anymore.


    So, it's a problem that the % reflected is a free mod when you're gearing up, but it's not a problem that the flat damage becomes a free mod when you're geared?
    Yeah, no contradiction there.

    Also, I don't 1-shot myself anymore on RD, so, if you do, maybe you should rethink your character.
  • #52
    Quote from maka

    Quote from riptide

    Quote from maka

    Why are you not considering that they might just fiddle with the % of damage reflected? I think that's a possible solution.


    Because it's worse than a flat dmg as a solution.

    We already know they don't want any 1 shot mechanics, at the very least on normal elites, and that they are focusing on more constant dmg(than we even have now) and less burst. They aren't going to make it so reflect dmg can turn on and you kill yourself a % dmg will certainly do that.

    That would make it so early on when you're gearing up, it's a free mod that may as well not be there. Meanwhile when you're at the gear ceiling, you 1 shot yourself. So what they would have to do is impose more rules to make that solution work. That seems like more work for little gain.

    Besides a flat dmg increase makes your character feel more powerful as it gets gear. Instead of the % which makes you feel weaker and goes against the whole idea of the game. The only way you can outgear a scaling percentage of incoming dmg is to have a scaling percentage of incoming healing. Which they don't want anymore.


    So, it's a problem that the % reflected is a free mod when you're gearing up, but it's not a problem that the flat damage becomes a free mod when you're geared?
    Yeah, no contradiction there.

    Also, I don't 1-shot myself anymore on RD, so, if you do, maybe you should rethink your character.


    In the situation behind "% vs. flat damage" what needs to be ultimately accomplished is having it be difficult when you're starting off and not well geared, but then when you become better geared it is less difficult but still somewhat difficult. When comparing these two scenarios, we have to ignore life steal, because in RoS that won't be able to be counted on so readily to counterbalance the incoming reflected damage.

    To me, flat damage is a lot easier for Blizzard to manipulate because it takes one variable out of the equation: DPS. All they have to do is look at EHP when determining a flat value returned to your character as damage. All they have to do is consider these extremes: (1) what damage a character with low EHP would take and (2) what damage a character with high EHP would take and pick an appropriate flat damage rate to return. Because there's only the variable of EHP they can easily pick a flat value that is punishing no matter what your EHP, but different degrees of punishing based off that EHP. They can easily pick a flat value that is neither overwhelming or negligible.

    When calculating a percent of damage you throw in that extra variable which concerns the character's DPS. What would a character (1) with low DPS and low EHP (2) with low DPS and high EHP (3) with high DPS and low EHP (4) with high DPS and high EHP. Factoring in DPS creates a more compelling mechanic concept, but it also creates possible imbalances if not done properly. Note that I am not saying it can't be done or that it shouldn't be done, I just think it is a lot more difficult for Blizzard to balance.

    So the question lies really in whether or not Reflect Damage should be a mod that punishes high DPS/low EHP but is more or less ignored by low DPS/high EHP, or should it just return a flat value that is easier to balance and punishes low EHP more than high EHP but is difficult no matter what. I think both individually are possible it just depends on how Blizzard wants Reflect Damage to ultimately work as a game mechanic, but to me they are mutually exclusive and can't work in tandem. One gives us a more compelling dynamic that can be extremely punishing or completely negligible while the other is easier to balance and if done properly will always be different degrees of punishing.

    I personally like the flat damage choice, because I find dying to one mechanic based on gear choices to be pretty excessive. It doesn't feel good to be to have to stack EHP just because I might run into one affix when otherwise if I never saw it I would have been fine without the extra EHP. I don't think one affix should hold that much individual power to influence gear choice. But it should also be noted that reflect damage pulses so maybe it is fair to have it be that punishing since you shouldn't be attacking when it is triggered? That's really up to Blizzard to decide if that is to be the deciding factor. But then again, I don't like the idea of it being negligible either by just stacking enough EHP in comparison to your individual DPS. A flat damage return would be easier balanced to not cause that to happen.
  • #53
    Quote from maka

    So, it's a problem that the % reflected is a free mod when you're gearing up, but it's not a problem that the flat damage becomes a free mod when you're geared?
    Yeah, no contradiction there.


    Well, yeah, the whole idea of a game like this is that as you get more gear the monsters become easier, not harder. That seems like a pretty fundamental tenet to a game that's about becoming more and more powerful through Paragon & items, right?
    p400 :: 85.1k EK :: 2.38m TK
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  • #54
    Quote from maka

    Quote from riptide

    Quote from maka

    Why are you not considering that they might just fiddle with the % of damage reflected? I think that's a possible solution.


    Because it's worse than a flat dmg as a solution.

    We already know they don't want any 1 shot mechanics, at the very least on normal elites, and that they are focusing on more constant dmg(than we even have now) and less burst. They aren't going to make it so reflect dmg can turn on and you kill yourself a % dmg will certainly do that.

    That would make it so early on when you're gearing up, it's a free mod that may as well not be there. Meanwhile when you're at the gear ceiling, you 1 shot yourself. So what they would have to do is impose more rules to make that solution work. That seems like more work for little gain.

    Besides a flat dmg increase makes your character feel more powerful as it gets gear. Instead of the % which makes you feel weaker and goes against the whole idea of the game. The only way you can outgear a scaling percentage of incoming dmg is to have a scaling percentage of incoming healing. Which they don't want anymore.


    So, it's a problem that the % reflected is a free mod when you're gearing up, but it's not a problem that the flat damage becomes a free mod when you're geared?
    Yeah, no contradiction there.

    Also, I don't 1-shot myself anymore on RD, so, if you do, maybe you should rethink your character.


    Not sure if you read the last paragraph but I already pointed out the logic in that. If you disagree with more gear = more power. Perhaps you should design the first ARPG to deviate from that.
  • #55
    Quote from itirnitii

    Quote from maka

    Quote from riptide

    Quote from maka

    Why are you not considering that they might just fiddle with the % of damage reflected? I think that's a possible solution.


    Because it's worse than a flat dmg as a solution.

    We already know they don't want any 1 shot mechanics, at the very least on normal elites, and that they are focusing on more constant dmg(than we even have now) and less burst. They aren't going to make it so reflect dmg can turn on and you kill yourself a % dmg will certainly do that.

    That would make it so early on when you're gearing up, it's a free mod that may as well not be there. Meanwhile when you're at the gear ceiling, you 1 shot yourself. So what they would have to do is impose more rules to make that solution work. That seems like more work for little gain.

    Besides a flat dmg increase makes your character feel more powerful as it gets gear. Instead of the % which makes you feel weaker and goes against the whole idea of the game. The only way you can outgear a scaling percentage of incoming dmg is to have a scaling percentage of incoming healing. Which they don't want anymore.


    So, it's a problem that the % reflected is a free mod when you're gearing up, but it's not a problem that the flat damage becomes a free mod when you're geared?
    Yeah, no contradiction there.

    Also, I don't 1-shot myself anymore on RD, so, if you do, maybe you should rethink your character.


    In the situation behind "% vs. flat damage" what needs to be ultimately accomplished is having it be difficult when you're starting off and not well geared, but then when you become better geared it is less difficult but still somewhat difficult. When comparing these two scenarios, we have to ignore life steal, because in RoS that won't be able to be counted on so readily to counterbalance the incoming reflected damage.

    To me, flat damage is a lot easier for Blizzard to manipulate because it takes one variable out of the equation: DPS. All they have to do is look at EHP when determining a flat value returned to your character as damage. All they have to do is consider these extremes: (1) what damage a character with low EHP would take and (2) what damage a character with high EHP would take and pick an appropriate flat damage rate to return. Because there's only the variable of EHP they can easily pick a flat value that is punishing no matter what your EHP, but different degrees of punishing based off that EHP. They can easily pick a flat value that is neither overwhelming or negligible.

    When calculating a percent of damage you throw in that extra variable which concerns the character's DPS. What would a character (1) with low DPS and low EHP (2) with low DPS and high EHP (3) with high DPS and low EHP (4) with high DPS and high EHP. Factoring in DPS creates a more compelling mechanic concept, but it also creates possible imbalances if not done properly. Note that I am not saying it can't be done or that it shouldn't be done, I just think it is a lot more difficult for Blizzard to balance.

    So the question lies really in whether or not Reflect Damage should be a mod that punishes high DPS/low EHP but is more or less ignored by low DPS/high EHP, or should it just return a flat value that is easier to balance and punishes low EHP more than high EHP but is difficult no matter what. I think both individually are possible it just depends on how Blizzard wants Reflect Damage to ultimately work as a game mechanic, but to me they are mutually exclusive and can't work in tandem. One gives us a more compelling dynamic that can be extremely punishing or completely negligible while the other is easier to balance and if done properly will always be different degrees of punishing.

    I personally like the flat damage choice, because I find dying to one mechanic based on gear choices to be pretty excessive. It doesn't feel good to be to have to stack EHP just because I might run into one affix when otherwise if I never saw it I would have been fine without the extra EHP. I don't think one affix should hold that much individual power to influence gear choice. But it should also be noted that reflect damage pulses so maybe it is fair to have it be that punishing since you shouldn't be attacking when it is triggered? That's really up to Blizzard to decide if that is to be the deciding factor. But then again, I don't like the idea of it being negligible either by just stacking enough EHP in comparison to your individual DPS. A flat damage return would be easier balanced to not cause that to happen.


    Well said. I'm for the flat damage change. One shotting yourself with a well placed EP taking out the whole pack and yourself isn't fun. Even with a % reduction, you'd still die from reflected EPs as elite monster health is a huge number. It's like iron-maiden all over again.
  • #56
    "Combat Philosophy", isn't that an oxymoron ? :)
  • #57
    I see the aim to "improve the combat philosophy" as a nice try to improve build variety for everyone. Currently if you get one-shot - it's determined by your gear + build, not your skill. If they put the emphasis on skill (positioning, avoiding stuff, etc), you will have much more freedom in picking skills.
    Pietrak#2537 - changed my battle.tag just for you ;P
  • #58
    Quote from shaggy

    Well, yeah, the whole idea of a game like this is that as you get more gear the monsters become easier, not harder. That seems like a pretty fundamental tenet to a game that's about becoming more and more powerful through Paragon & items, right?


    Mostly yes, but I think, RD is a decent means to force certain classes to consider defensive stats for their gear. If it weren't for RD, which Wiz/DH/WD would have LS at all? Physical resist? They could forsake those stats in favor of pure offense, creating an imbalance vs melee characters.

    Blizz could in theory achieve something similar with a flat thorns aura, that would just mean you need physical resist of x to mitigate it vs needing y% of your dps. Balancing this absolute x might be very tough compared to a relative y.
  • #59
    Quote from Solmyr77

    If it weren't for RD, which Wiz/DH/WD would have LS at all? They could forsake those stats in favor of pure offense, creating an imbalance vs melee characters.


    Anyway it's just 1 affix on 1 item... So we have to sacrifice 1.3% of our affixes... If at least we had to have LS on every item to make it work, it would be a real sacrifice.
  • #60
    Quote from Solmyr77

    Mostly yes, but I think, RD is a decent means to force certain classes to consider defensive stats for their gear. If it weren't for RD, which Wiz/DH/WD would have LS at all? Physical resist? They could forsake those stats in favor of pure offense, creating an imbalance vs melee characters.


    Why should *one* affix have that responsibility? There are a ton of offensive damage-causing affixes a monster can have, in addition to their basic attacks. Why shouldn't mortar, molten, fire chains, etc. be the impetus for defensive stats? If we're gearing a specific stat for a specific affix, that's really botched design and it points to exactly what Wyatt is talking about "fixing" with combat.

    The fact that we need Life Leech for Reflects Damage directly leads to the other problems. Now that we have Life Leech those mortar monsters have to do MORE damage to fight through our leeching which means that we have almost-binary damage (deadly or insiginificant).

    We shouldn't be worried that WDs, Wizzies, and DHs might not gear for Life Leech because that's a symptom of a much bigger problem - the problem that Wyatt is hopefully going to solve for us.
    p400 :: 85.1k EK :: 2.38m TK
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