Wyatt Chang on Combat Philosphy

  • #21
    Quote from Catalept

    You seem to have missed the bit where I proposed instagibs that were the result of the player ignoring game mechanics designed to punish indifference to same, whereas current instagibs pretty much come out of nowhere. The subtle (and, in your opinion negligible?) difference is that one is down to player thought and planning, the other is down to RNG.

    ... welp?


    I didn't miss a thing. They want instagibs to never happen, they're the bad design.

    I like your idea about extra punishment because of gameplay fails. If they tweak healing so that you could go from 100->70, 70->80, 80->50 and so on you might as well design monster abilities such that the 80->50 step becomes 80->30. And you'd need 10 seconds of leeching/regenning (or a health orb) to get back to full. It'd force you to be on your toes a bit more.

    But you want them (or you don't? you basically ignored the main point of wyatt cheng's post) to leave healing uncapped and scaling directly only with dps (this part is their design problem) and introduce some extra ways to get instagibbed. You're not focusing on the problem at hand.

    Monster resists could be part of it - then again, they could simply cut player dps down a bit for the same effect - but they're still not solving much in AoE situations (so, most situations) or higher monster power levels, where monster HP scales a lot faster than their damage. As a barb with rend, I always have an easier time fighting multiple rare packs than single opponents. There has to be a hard limit on how much you can heal within a certain timeframe if they're going to be able to tweak monster damage to make us feel danger even if <1s full to zero deaths are impossible.
  • #22
    Quote from elvy

    I didn't miss a thing. They want instagibs to never happen, they're the bad design.

    I like your idea about extra punishment because of gameplay fails. If they tweak healing so that you could go from 100->70, 70->80, 80->50 and so on you might as well design monster abilities such that the 80->50 step becomes 80->30. And you'd need 10 seconds of leeching/regenning (or a health orb) to get back to full. It'd force you to be on your toes a bit more.

    But you want them (or you don't? you basically ignored the main point of wyatt cheng's post) to leave healing uncapped and scaling directly only with dps (this part is their design problem) and introduce some extra ways to get instagibbed. You're not focusing on the problem at hand.


    I didn't read that post as Blizzard not wanting any instagibs at all... the reason why I proposed them is that if you don't have them, then the meta-game become all about outgearing the big hits so you can go back to ignoring game mechanics, which is exactly the problem at hand.

    At the moment, the 'punishment' for ignoring elite abilities is no worse than (and in most cases not nearly as bad as) the 'baseline' incoming damage, which means that the sustain needed for ordinary combat has a side-effect of making things like mortars, plague and fire-chains irrelevant. Part of the solution is reducing 'base' monster damage and life-steal, absolutely... but that alone would make combat tedious, and it'd still be as faceroll as it is now (assuming you're at a 'comfortable' MP).

    IMO, a crucial part of fixing this issue is to have elite abilities that force the player to switch their tactics or face unavoidable death. In my perfect D3, there should be particular abilities and combinations of abilities that brutally punish the inattentive, but only give a brief scare to people who are on their toes. A WW barbarian, CM wizard or TR monk who pays no attention to what they're fighting should die within seconds when they encounter their nemesis affix... to the extent that even dialing back the MP 3 or 4 levels shouldn't be enough to save a faceroll player from their own tunnel-vision.
  • #23
    Quote from Catalept

    I didn't read that post as Blizzard not wanting any instagibs at all...


    That's because Wyatt didn't say anything about removing all instagibs. It's not in the post. Someone is just making shit up.

    I am willing to bet that they do keep certain one-shot (or exceptionally-high-damage) attacks. Stuff like Mallet Lords, Azmodan's fireball, Skeleton King's wind-up attack, etc. One-shot mechanics work well for "special" attacks that must be avoided. They don't work well on common attacks like mortar, arcane, etc. I think that's precisely what Wyatt was talking about.

    That's not to say that mortar is an instagib mechanic. But it is to say that if one volley of mortar takes you down to 10%, then, due to its relative common occurence, that becomes a point at which you gear around. If you can heal that 90% through globes/potions/or regen stats before the next mortars happen, then there's no point to the mechanic.

    That's a far cry from "there won't be any instagib mechanics" though.
    67.1k elite kills :: 1.98m total kills :: p255
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  • #24
    Quote from shaggy

    I am willing to bet that they do keep certain one-shot (or exceptionally-high-damage) attacks. Stuff like Mallet Lords, Azmodan's fireball, Skeleton King's wind-up attack, etc. One-shot mechanics work well for "special" attacks that must be avoided. They don't work well on common attacks like mortar, arcane, etc. I think that's precisely what Wyatt was talking about.


    I hope they do. Telegraphed instagibs make for a fun game, regardless of genre, even if they raise my blood pressure too damn high in HC.

    Quote from shaggy

    That's not to say that mortar is an instagib mechanic. But it is to say that if one volley of mortar takes you down to 10%, then, due to its relative common occurence, that becomes a point at which you gear around. If you can heal that 90% through globes/potions/or regen stats before the next mortars happen, then there's no point to the mechanic.

    That's a far cry from "there won't be any instagib mechanics" though.


    Well, as I said, I think one mortar hit should be a minor annoyance, but eating 8 in a row should turn you into jam regardless of your EHP... so yeah, if Blizzard starts talking about removing all instagibs, I shall be grumpy beyond reckoning.
  • #25
    Quote from shaggy

    Quote from Catalept

    I didn't read that post as Blizzard not wanting any instagibs at all...


    That's because Wyatt didn't say anything about removing all instagibs. It's not in the post. Someone is just making shit up.

    I am willing to bet that they do keep certain one-shot (or exceptionally-high-damage) attacks. Stuff like Mallet Lords, Azmodan's fireball, Skeleton King's wind-up attack, etc. One-shot mechanics work well for "special" attacks that must be avoided. They don't work well on common attacks like mortar, arcane, etc. I think that's precisely what Wyatt was talking about.

    That's not to say that mortar is an instagib mechanic. But it is to say that if one volley of mortar takes you down to 10%, then, due to its relative common occurence, that becomes a point at which you gear around. If you can heal that 90% through globes/potions/or regen stats before the next mortars happen, then there's no point to the mechanic.

    That's a far cry from "there won't be any instagib mechanics" though.


    Actually Wyatt has said similar.
    Right now we don't have many ways to stress the EHP of the ranged classes without it feeling bursty. I think this is because the game has an plethora of "Do the right thing and take 0 damage, do the wrong thing and take 100K damage". Since the outcomes are so binary, the correct way to build a ranged class is to try to do the right thing as often as you can, and maybe build enough survivability so you can make a mistake once in a while. What I think we need more of is "Do the right thing and take 20K damage, do the wrong thing and take 80K damage". You're still trying to do the right thing, but you're still taking damage either way. Besides, Sanctuary is a dangerous, violent and hazardous place - some amount of damage comes with the territory. When I play, I want to feel stress on my EHP and my Sustainability while still feeling satisfied for making smart plays. I also want to value incremental survivability choices I make on my gear and my skill build.


    Let's take it into some more concrete numbers. Let's say a Demon Hunter has 30K health and regenerates 20K health per second via Gloom or what have you. In that world, a 30K hit kills you instantly.
    Let's take a mechanic like Mortar. Suppose at the MP level you're playing at, Mortars hit for 30K. As a Demon Hunter you have 2 choices, you can either plan on avoiding all Mortars perfectly, and then you don't die. Or you can gear for either 35K basically you're allowing yourself some "slush". How you gear depends on your confidence in your ability to avoid those Mortars, and how sensitive you are to death.

    If you gear for 30K or less, then you are going to feel like the game is really cheap and unfair when you do die, because when those mortars hit you that you had planned on avoiding, you go from full to dead instantly. (Side note, this contributes to Vortex feeling cheap. It's not that Vortex kills you directly, but Vortex causes you to take damage from something you had previously planned on avoiding completely, because you know it kills you)

    On the other hand, if you gear for 35K health, then the game went from threatening to super-easy-mode, because the mortars are flying at you once every 2 seconds, and you heal to full in 1.5 seconds, now the mortars never actually kill you. In fact, you might not even bother dodging them anymore.

    Now enter the "half-damage and half-healing". Instead of healing for 20K health per second, I heal for 10K health per second. But instead of taking 30K damage, I take 15K damage. In the absence of any other changes, I think we'd see exactly what you predict. The game didn't become interesting, instead, I'm just going to gear with 15K health.

    However, what if the way in which we cut Mortar damage wasn't just a strict 50% cut. What if we took the 30K damage and made it "0 damage if you avoid the Mortar by 20 yards, 5K damage if there is a Nearby Hit of about 8 yards, and 25K damage if you are hit directly".

    Now as a player I can't reliably plan on avoiding all the Mortar hits. If I want to play super-duper safe I can avoid all the mortars, but I'm probably running a ton and doing almost no damage. Realistically I'm probably going to take 5K "incidental damage" constantly. This is going to eat into my 10K healing per second. If I take a 25K hit that leaves me at 5K health, I'm scared but not dead. Over the next 5 seconds I can't afford to take another direct hit, and can either play super conservatively to avoid even 5K hits, or I can play more aggressively and accept that my 10K regen per second is being partially counteracted by the 5K near-hits and just make a concerted effort to avoid any more direct hits until my health is back up to a comfortable range.

    You're right this would be a significant shift in the environment, which is why you haven't seen such a change.

    Note: I'm not actually saying we're going to change anything with Mortar. I'm just using it for illustrative purposes because I think it's a good example for people to wrap their minds around right now.


    When incoming damage is that high, a 15% increase in monster damage would result in death. This leads to comments like "As soon as I turn up the Monster Power I get 1-shot". I'd like to see a game where a clever player can handle a higher Monster Power by reducing incoming damage through good play.


    He never comes right out and says it but if you read between the lines, he's implying that he's not happy with current balance of dmg output vs rewarding good play vs life steal.

    In the case of the abilities you mentioned since they are all very telegraphed then sure I could see them remaining high dmg, but I don't think they want them to 1 shot you. Especially mallet lords, I've watched good players die to jailor mallet lords. And with Loot runs, you will too. So unless you think read affix -> run is the type of gameplay they are promoting, I'm sure you'll agree.
  • #26
    Quote from Catalept

    Quote from elvy

    ^
    The problem is the existence of instagibs, a recognized bad design, which in turn exist because there exist healing mechanics that enable you to heal back to full in a very short time - something must be dangerous for the player, after all.

    And your solution is... more instagibs. Welp :)


    You seem to have missed the bit where I proposed instagibs that were the result of the player ignoring game mechanics designed to punish indifference to same, whereas current instagibs pretty much come out of nowhere. The subtle (and, in your opinion negligible?) difference is that one is down to player thought and planning, the other is down to RNG.

    ... welp?


    Don't like the idea, because then the game becomes far too much about twitch skill (nearly 100% really) and not enough about gear, the game would strike some sort of balance, ideally. Players should feel threatened/stressed in harder difficulties with sub-par gear, but it shouldn't be a case of: your gear must be this good to ride.

    You can have situations of requiring players to pay attention and play well without outright killing them upon the first mistake made.
  • #27
    Quote from riptide


    He never comes right out and says it but if you read between the lines, he's implying that he's not happy with instagib as it stands.


    If I'm reading this thread correctly, nobody is. There seems to be some differing opinions on whether it should exist at all, but TPTB haven't signalled their intentions in that regard... but it's important to remember that they are indicating that they want to solve both the problem of stat-stacking trivialising content, and the somewhat faceroll nature of D3's combat once you get a 'safe' build+gear combo.
  • #28
    a relevant presentation from Wyatt Chang himself :
    http://us.battle.net...inder-7-10-2013
    from the 03.00 min mark until around 13, their general approach towards healing
    I like his approach , let's see how they actually do it
  • #29
    They better think about the ugly word "downtime" when changing life gain mechanics. What am I supposed to do after a battle when I'm not at full health?
    Back in 2002, in DAoC (first big game after D2's life steal paradise), I'd have to sit down and wait for several minutes to slowly gain health back. Then came Blizz with WoW and its food, which meant sitting down and waiting again, but not for so long. Keep in mind, both games were MMORPGs and designed to have dedicated healing classes around you.
    Now how are they going to adress this in a game without those? Town portal and visit the new Akara?

    I'm not a big fan of these health globes, they're ok for the 1-60 part, but I don't want to rely on them in the endgame. My favorite aspect of the game so far are the uber boss encounters and I wouldn't know how to best them with an hp pool that only goes into one direction: down.

    Keep in mind, I'm mostly talking out of a melee pov. I've played (and killed Diablo with) an ~8k hp DH that would die to the sandstorm in a2, but I wouldn't want to go back to that anti-melee game.
    I apologize for any formating issues in my posts, I just can't use the new editor.Currently playing Magic 2014, see my thread:http://www.diablofans.com/topic/97565-magic-2014/
    Also, if you like Classics, try:Dungeons and Dragons Anthology ( http://www.gamersgat...ster-collection )
  • #30
    They won't completely get rid of life regen, the point is it should be far less bursty and consistent. So if you meet a hard elite pack and your health is dropping, you have to pop a panic cooldown, or run back and regroup, etc. Potentially makes for a lot more interesting and varied gameplay.
  • #31
    I would like to see some buffs to shield users.

    that is more important to me than some to-be-or-not-to-be about instagibs. We got so many good items that buff block and good shields. Improve their Damage block give some "on block" spells and let some shieldusers play a fun game
  • #32
    Here is my 2 cents from playing multi classes in MP10.


    We will go after elites and rare mobs only if we know we will live. Why? It's not worth our time in a run to even kill a elite/rare with PGL 90+

    They need to make the kill more rewarding. 1-4 useless rare items are not cutting it. Now if there was a 25% chance of a super rolled item. Then we would take the risk of death to beat the elite/rares.
  • #33
    2200 life per sec and i clear mp10 with no LS and i have no problems, so i assume there isn't much changing to me.^^
    Those Who Do Not Know True Pain Cannot Possibly Understand True Peace...
  • #34
    Quote from Solmyr77



    I'm not a big fan of these health globes, they're ok for the 1-60 part, but I don't want to rely on them in the endgame. My favorite aspect of the game so far are the uber boss encounters and I wouldn't know how to best them with an hp pool that only goes into one direction: down.

    Keep in mind, I'm mostly talking out of a melee pov. I've played (and killed Diablo with) an ~8k hp DH that would die to the sandstorm in a2, but I wouldn't want to go back to that anti-melee game.


    He already mentioned making health globes drop every 20% of an elites hp. Health globes are actually really good, even now, if you even have a single + health globe stat. In my case I have 1 item with +10k or something like that. That makes a world of difference and I have a 60k HP pool.
  • #35
    Quote from ChaosCode

    Here is my 2 cents from playing multi classes in MP10.


    We will go after elites and rare mobs only if we know we will live. Why? It's not worth our time in a run to even kill a elite/rare with PGL 90+

    They need to make the kill more rewarding. 1-4 useless rare items are not cutting it. Now if there was a 25% chance of a super rolled item. Then we would take the risk of death to beat the elite/rares.


    They are changing this in RoS, it's confirmed. Far less drops, but of far better quality <3
  • #36
    Look, the same thing happened with WoW a while back. Healing was out of control, mana was a nonissue and the only thing that could kill the maintank was ridiculously bursty damage. I remember parsing logs where I had landed a heal 100ms before the tank died, but because of latency it never registered and we wiped. And these heals weren't reactionary, several people were spamhealing, it just so happened that the tank got 'instagibbed', ie died from 100 to 0 in less than half a second (NOT from one hit!!).

    As long as healing such as this exists, damage has to be bursty. What is going to kill the 60k hp Barbarian who can heal himself for 5k per enemy around him per second? The screen has more than 12 enemies on it at all times, after all.

    So... read what Wyatt is writing, consider that this has happened before and Blizzard knows about it and you can come to some relevant conclusions. They're talking about the balance of damage vs hp vs lifesteal and they want to make it less bursty. That means less incoming damage and less incoming healing. Unavoidable deaths due to some mechanic or another aren't necessarily awful if implemented in, say, a boss encounter, where you know it's coming, it's part of the fight, it's a gimmick etc. Having such a mechanic on regular elite packs is not it, though. Especially when stuff like Vortex --> Frozen --> Mortar can happen, which you can do absolutely nothing about (or is everyone playing WW barb and totally forgot about monster cc abilities :P).
  • #37
    Follow up:

    Originally Posted by (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)

    Hi guys, I've seen some great feedback so far. Let me answer a few questions and address some concerns.

    Regarding the existing monster affixes. We'll be keeping an eye on these. For example, Reflects Damage internally has been changed to a flat amount rather than a percentage. I don't know if it's going to ship this way but that's the current internal version.

    If we don't want a game defined by one-shot deaths, then we can't have damage that is defined by it's burstiness. Some people have suggested that the solution to making the game more tactical is to make all mechanics 100% avoidable. This sounds good on paper but unfortunately doesn't address one-shot deaths. What we want to do is avoid the extremes. Maybe in one case you can avoid all of the damage, but in another case "good play" means you avoid half of the damage. Having a broad spectrum of attacks with varying degrees of avoidability means both combat decisions and gear matter.

    There have been some concerns that we'll swing back to the extremes of hyper-defensives builds such as when the game first came out. This is not the intention. As DrothVader pointed out, there's a middle ground here where you're able to gear and play offensively, but you still have to concern yourself with the dangerous affixes and other mechanics.

    A clarification: When I said "After we pull in the rate of healing, next we analyze the patterns in which monsters deal damage" I meant those as steps in the development process. Sorry for the confusion. I didn't mean for a moment that we were going to release in between those two steps. As TheTruth posits, this is an iterative process. There are actually MANY steps involved, those are just the first two. We're changing a lot of things and we'll do a lot of testing of the whole package before putting it all live.

    I also share ComposMentis' concerns that although we're trying to adjust how combat feels, we should make sure the result isn't a game that feels slow. Diablo is still an action RPG. As Bomdanil says, there's still a lot of room to "hack and slash through endless piles of monsters". Creating room for players to mitigate incoming damage through smart play is not mutually exclusive with being able to blow them up at a fast pace. A few people have jumped to the conclusion that tactical = slow, or created a false dilemna between "fast paced action RPG" and "strategic prolonged tactical combat". There are more possibilities than this. The goal is a game where the combat can still be very fast, and you are mowing down enemies, but you also get to make quick decisions about when to use a CC ability, when to pop a defensive ability or who to prioritize as a target. These are tactical decisions that don't detract from a fast pace.

    I want to thank everybody for the really solid and constructive discussion. It's good to see so many thoughtful posts. I can't realistically respond to everything (such as the suggested modified damage model or some of the potion ideas) but I do appreciate that so many people put effort into stating their reasons and opinions clearly.
  • #38
    Quote from RasAlgethi24

    Originally Posted by (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)

    Regarding the existing monster affixes. We'll be keeping an eye on these. For example, Reflects Damage internally has been changed to a flat amount rather than a percentage. I don't know if it's going to ship this way but that's the current internal version.


    WTF? That sounds horrible. So Reflect Damage would just be another flat damage type like Plagued or Desecrator. I hope this get changed back, I actually think the current RD ain't that bad.
  • #39
    Quote from Bagstone

    Quote from RasAlgethi24

    Originally Posted by (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)

    Regarding the existing monster affixes. We'll be keeping an eye on these. For example, Reflects Damage internally has been changed to a flat amount rather than a percentage. I don't know if it's going to ship this way but that's the current internal version.


    WTF? That sounds horrible. So Reflect Damage would just be another flat damage type like Plagued or Desecrator. I hope this get changed back, I actually think the current RD ain't that bad.


    Agreed. As much as RD was a pain in the ass sometimes, it is a unique and interesting mechanic and it should stay that way.
  • #40
    Quote from maka

    Quote from Bagstone

    Quote from RasAlgethi24

    Originally Posted by (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)

    Regarding the existing monster affixes. We'll be keeping an eye on these. For example, Reflects Damage internally has been changed to a flat amount rather than a percentage. I don't know if it's going to ship this way but that's the current internal version.


    WTF? That sounds horrible. So Reflect Damage would just be another flat damage type like Plagued or Desecrator. I hope this get changed back, I actually think the current RD ain't that bad.


    Agreed. As much as RD was a pain in the ass sometimes, it is a unique and interesting mechanic and it should stay that way.


    RD is not interesting it is nothing more than a gear check. Got enough LS/resists/armor to survive? Ok ignore it completely. Don't have enough to survive? Have fun waiting for the pulses or insta-gib yourself.

    My friends and I are at the point where we can ignore it on MP10. No idea why people like reflect except to laugh at people who haven't hit the gear level to ignore it or something.
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