Let's Talk About Paragon 2.0 - Travis Day

  • #81
    Quote from Tralfamadore

    Quote from Indimix

    Why do you justify the sad current state of this game comparing it to another game?.

    In almost all of your posts you say something like: "in D2 we had the same, D2 didn't do any better, D2 blablabla".

    Who cares what D2 did or didn't do, this is D3.


    I think you missed the point of the discussion, honestly. I don't think anyone is justifying the current state of the game by comparing D3 to D2. I just think some people are tired of hearing how D3 is a shit game for x mechanic because it is uninspired and boring while D2 was awesome because of a very similar mechanic.

    That's at least my take.


    Not at all, most ppl here tell the same fallacy when they can't defend their game, I'll list some of the most used ones:

    - D2 was the same
    - If you don't like it don't play it.
    - Why are you posting in a diablo fans site then?.


    I could continue, but you get my point.
  • #82
    I'm with Shaggy.
    Monster Power is not supposed to be about progression. That wasn't the intent. There is no "you have to beat MP10 to beat the game." Monster Power was designed so that you could play at the level you felt comfortable playing. You could give your character a challenge if you wanted to or scale it back and relax. It's not supposed to be about progression, people just choose to frame it that way. All the best items can drop on MP 1 as well as MP10. Blizzard stated their intent with Monster Power was not to make you feel like playing MP10 was more rewarding than MP1, it was just to offer yourself more of a challange if you so desired. Now whether that is actually true can be debated since MP10 can be more rewarding for sure, but that was not Blizzards intention as stated. They'd probably still be trying to balance it if all patching wasn't put to a halt after 1.08 since RoS is on the horizon and they will probably and hopefully create something more dynamic.

    Another thing, I think the worst aspect of Diablo 3 as far as creating new characters go is the linearity of skill choices. Why do skills have to unlock at certain levels and have it all be so structured? Where are the choices to unlock things on your own? Or through items you find? Runes could have been items you found or rewards for killing bosses and then you use them to unlock the runes of your choice. I think that was rushed and should be completely revamped. Yes at max level you will still end up with the same character as any other of the same class, but at least the journey could be different getting there...

    For me Diablo 2 was not any more interesting in farming than Diablo 3 is now. In fact it was more boring for me thinking back on it... Create game, kill Pindleskin, leave game, create game, kill Pindleskin, leave game. Oh. my. fucking. God. It was not revolutionary in the slightest. Create game, teleport straight to Meph, kill him, leave game, create game, teleport straight to Meph, kill him, leave game. I don't know why I did that as much as I did... I'm not saying Diablo 3 is the end all be all to fun, but Diablo 2 isn't much better and arguably it isn't even so.

    I played Diablo 2 a lot. I mean A LOT. I was that little nerdy kid with glasses and acne that just sat all day on the computer with my mom worried that I had become possessed. I remember making spreadsheets about the items I would find each and every run as a catalog for other players. I didn't play anything else but Starcraft and console games here and there. I want to testify that not all players cared about making different version of the same class. My goal was to have a 99 of all seven classes and I never made a duplicate class. I just want to throw that out there.

    EDIT: restructure my post ._.
  • #83
    Quote from miles_dryden

    Quote from maka

    Sorry, shaggy, but he's right. And you know exactly what he means. In D3 you just farm to get 'moar': more damage, more health, more resists. Nothing really changes.
    Also, the fact that you equate having A MAXIMUM of 5 characters (most people have 1 or 2, mayben3) in D3 to the dozens he mentioned having in D2 is a bit....meh, I don't wanna start flinging insults.
    Whether or not RoS can change that, remains to be seen. But I have some reservations.


    As far as 'wacky builds' goes, the new legendaries should provide a bit of fuel for that fire.

    Also, I don't agree that having dozens of characters just for trying out different builds is really fundamentally better (or even all that different) than what we have now. In D2, if you wanted to try something new, you had to essentially start from scratch. Sure, you could send some gear over to your new character to help him level but you only get to really start playing with a new build once he hits 70-ish, and that takes time. In D3, If you want to try a build, you just do it, and just keep any spare gear in your enormous stash, without the need to make a muel character just to hold stuff.

    If you enjoy leveling a new character just for the sake of doing that, there is nothing stopping you. 2.0 will make that even more rewarding.


    Wait wait wait... level 70 takes some time!!!! Ummm no If i recall correctly I got several characters (100's) to level 89-90 in a very very short amount of time using the Power leveling of a Hammerdin and Necro
  • #84
    Quote from miles_dryden


    Ok, I'm not being clear. I realize that currently, gear can pretty much be used for anything, with no gear-based build requirements. My point was that with the upcoming changes to legendaries and itemization in general, there will be a greater push to have item "collections" for different builds and strategies (think defensive/conservative vs glass cannon, resource generation vs. movement/utility, that kind of thing). I admit up front that this is optimistic. But since our stash is so large, we can just throw all the extras in there rather than having to create new characters just to hold stuff, which is one less reason we need to be able to create lots of characters.


    Yeah. I was talking about the current game; whether RoS will change that is still anyone's guess. I'm hoping it will.

    @shaggy: we're talking about two fundamentally different things, here. I was talking about what you do when you reach higher levels; you're talking about what the game does to you when you reach those levels.
    italofoca said it: in D2 high-ish levels, you could really go off on a tangent and make some crazy builds if you had the item(s). I believe that was his original point. You could make really cool things with your character if you were willing to put in the farming time.


    Quote from itirnitii

    I'm with Shaggy.
    Monster Power is not supposed to be about progression. That wasn't the intent. There is no "you have to beat MP10 to beat the game." Monster Power was designed so that you could play at the level you felt comfortable playing. You could give your character a challenge if you wanted to or scale it back and relax. It's not supposed to be about progression, people just choose to frame it that way.


    The fact that you get loot at a ridiculously higher rate in high MP's totally throws your theory out the window. If playing at MP8 gives me 4x the amount of legendaries per unit of time than playing at MP2, then it's not really a choice is it? (note: proportion is not necessarily accurate).
    If people just want a challenge, then make MP unimportant when it comes to loot. As soon as higher MPs give more loot, and since this is a loot-based game, then the highest MP automatically becomes the goal.

    Quote from itirnitii

    Another thing, I think the worst aspect of Diablo 3 as far as creating new characters go is the linearity of skill choices. Why do skills have to unlock at certain levels and have it all be so structured? Where are the choices to unlock things on your own? Or through items you find? Runes could have been items you found or rewards for killing bosses and then you use them to unlock the runes of your choice. I think that was rushed and should be completely revamped. Yes at max level you will still end up with the same character as any other of the same class, but at least the journey could be different getting there...


    I've been saying that since the beta. Totally agree.
  • #85
    Quote from maka

    @shaggy: we're talking about two fundamentally different things, here. I was talking about what you do when you reach higher levels; you're talking about what the game does to you when you reach those levels.
    italofoca said it: in D2 high-ish levels, you could really go off on a tangent and make some crazy builds if you had the item(s). I believe that was his original point. You could make really cool things with your character if you were willing to put in the farming time.


    But they're attempting to address this via legendaries in RoS.... yet he says that RoS will be "more of the same" more or less.

    So, either he doesn't actually know what is in the works in RoS.... or he's just complaining for the sake of complaining. Either way it doesn't make it a strong stance to take. Being purposefully unaware of what RoS contains and then saying it's just the same farming should NOT be something that we embrace on any site like this. We should expect that the posters here are not woefully ignorant and at least semi-informed before they start taking pot shots at the game.

    I know, for a fact, that when I saw that legendary property that increased damage and resource generation by 25% while moving and reduced both by 25% while stationary I immediately thought "that'd make for the foundation of a Strafe build." Isn't that more or less what he wants? Items that influence builds?

    Maybe it was a shortcoming of D3, maybe it wasn't. But he's including "suboptimal" builds... and if you include those in D3 you literally have endless builds. I can farm MP1 with most skill combinations if I ignore efficiency on almost every toon.... which is VERY similar to playing D2 - if you didn't care about efficiency you could make some pretty interesting builds, but if you did care about efficiency there really weren't huge amounts of variety among builds.

    Quote from Indimix

    Not at all, most ppl here tell the same fallacy when they can't defend their game, I'll list some of the most used ones:


    There is nothing fallacious to point out that certain systems/mechanics were carried over from D2 when you have a bunch of trolls who think that D3 should just be D2 reskinned and get massively butthurt when they have to be reminded that BORING things like Monster Power were, for all intents and purposes, directly ported from their Jesus Christ on Rollerskates game.

    All it amounts to is pointing out hypocrisy. If Monster Power is boring then so is /players. You can't criticize one without criticizing the other since they are one in the same. If you hate Monster Power but aren't man enough to admit that /players was the same thing then, simply put, you're being a hypocritical troll.

    I realize this is difficult to understand for people who believe that Dave Brevik walked on water, but it's reality. Monster Power was derived directly from /players. So if Monster Power sucks that means that D2 had a flaw! Shocking!
    66.0k elite kills :: 1.97m total kills :: p244
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  • #86

    Baal zone had randomized enemies in higher difficulties. More than 10 years ago.

    Oh you mean that place everyone just teleported through to get to Baal's minions? ;)

    But ya, I agree we could do with more randomness. Loot runs and adventure mode should go a long way with that.


    Wait wait wait... level 70 takes some time!!!! Ummm no If i recall correctly I got several characters (100's) to level 89-90 in a very very short amount of time using the Power leveling of a Hammerdin and Necro




    Oh, so you didn't actually care about making new characters? That wasn't the fun part? You only cared about getting the character to high enough level to try a new skill setup? Well with D3, YOU DON'T EVEN NEED TO DO THAT! You just change your skills to what you want, no muss no fuss!
  • #87
    Quote from riptide

    Also, I would not really bring up GGG's budget vs Blizzard. I know I've spent way more on PoE than I have in D3. They have way less overhead so their profits are probably not too far off from Blizzards and are most certainly higher per player.


    I have no interest in the companies' profits. Talking about budget here. If you're doubting budget size, take a look at the ad campaign Blizz launched for D3. You don't do tv ads for stuff that cost 5m.

    The point is Blizzard probably had more than 30 people working on D3 through the years, simply because they're a big established company that could afford to do so. And they can afford to make big design changes/additions now, even at a shortterm profitability loss, because the company's reputation is at stake with this game and they're smart enough to think about longterm (see decision to close down AH.

    /offtopic
  • #88
    Quote from maka

    The fact that you get loot at a ridiculously higher rate in high MP's totally throws your theory out the window. If playing at MP8 gives me 4x the amount of legendaries per unit of time than playing at MP2, then it's not really a choice is it? (note: proportion is not necessarily accurate).
    If people just want a challenge, then make MP unimportant when it comes to loot. As soon as higher MPs give more loot, and since this is a loot-based game, then the highest MP automatically becomes the goal.


    I said it was their intention, not what actually happened. Monster Power was not intended as a progression scale, as specfically stated by Blizzard. So whoever chooses to perceive it that way that is on that person. Just because Blizzard failed to properly manage it that way doesn't negate their intention. I don't think Blizzard intended players to exploit builds to breeze through MP10 the way we do now when it was designed and I don't think they plan to balance the percentages of bonus exp and item drops because RoS is coming and they are probably scrapping the entire thing.
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