Let's Talk About Paragon 2.0 - Travis Day

  • #1

    Originally Posted by Travis Day (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)

    I've seen a lot of assorted questions floating about so I wanted to take a little time explaining some of the current details of the system. As always this is not completely final and is subject to change.

    First, let me start with the intent of the system so everyone has a bit of context. The initial implementation of the Paragon system was meant to help provide players a form of end game progression. The primary end game progression is items; Diablo is all about finding awesome items, and using them to murder the hordes of evil. Sometimes, though, you may go for a while and not find a new exciting item, the primary goal of the Paragon system is provide you with some form of tangible benefit for killing lots of monsters even if you didn't find new items.

    The initial system accomplishes what it set out to do, but unfortunately there comes a time when you have maxed out that progression and suddenly you start losing out on part of your reward for killing monsters (experience). The first change to the Paragon 2.0, removing the cap, is intended to ensure that, no matter how much or how little you play, you will always be earning that experience.

    The next thing that we wanted to address with Paragon 2.0 is that, since Paragon experience was associated with a specific character, it had the unfortunate side-effect of making players feel more tied to a specific character than we wanted them to be. If you have a Paragon 50 Wizard it makes it that much harder to convince yourself to try a new character because some people would feel like they are "wasting experience," either on the Wizard or on the new character they wanted to try out. We want players to feel that they are being rewarded for their time investment, regardless of what character they are in the mood to play or experiment with. This is the primary reason we are changing Paragon levels to be account-wide instead of character specific. We want people who have invested time earning Paragon experience to be able to enjoy all the changes and new content the expansion introduces without having a sense of loss for "wasting Paragon levels" on a character, especially since the Crusader is so awesome I expect 200% of players to just re-roll ;)

    Lastly, spendable points. Anyone who has played Diablo games in the past has some fond memories (or not, if you ever misclicked the wrong stat) of picking how they wanted to spend their points whenever they leveled. While giving players more character customization options isn't the core intent of the system, it did present itself as a good place to introduce the mechanic. Players already earn bonus stats, Magic Find, and Gold Find when they earn a Paragon level, but we thought giving players more options and letting them choose what they wanted their bonus to be was just better all around. When you gain a Paragon level in the new system, you will receive a Paragon point to spend. What category that point can be spent in is determined by what Paragon level you earn. Paragon level 1 gives you a point to spend in a Core Stat, Paragon 2 gives you a point in the Offensive category, 3 is Defensive, and 4 is Utility (Adventure). Each Paragon level past that follows the same pattern. At present all categories other than Core Stats (Str, Int, Dex, Vit) have a cap on the number of points that can be allocated to them, which also means there is a cap to the total number of points that 3 of the 4 categories can have. If you reach Paragon 800, you will have maxed the number of points that can be allocated to the Offensive, Defensive, and Utility categories and all future Paragon levels will grant you a point in the Core Stat category instead.

    Hopefully this covers the majority of questions that people have. While I am incredibly busy working on the expansion at present, I'll do my best to answer whatever remaining questions people have about Paragon 2.0.
  • #2
    To save my poor eyes along with the eyes of all other readers, please put the following around the text.

    [ blizzquote author='Travis Day' blue='http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/10025092427'] [ /blizzquote]

    Just remove the spaces.
    Blizzard Entertainment - Diablo III Community MVP
  • #3

    Originally Posted by Travis Day (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)

    They will look up and shout: 'save us', and I'll whisper: 'no'.
  • #4
    For anyone TL;DR this is pretty much the only new bit of information

    Originally Posted by Travis Day (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)


    Paragon level 1 gives you a point to spend in a Core Stat, Paragon 2 gives you a point in the Offensive category, 3 is Defensive, and 4 is Utility (Adventure). Each Paragon level past that follows the same pattern. At present all categories other than Core Stats (Str, Int, Dex, Vit) have a cap on the number of points that can be allocated to them, which also means there is a cap to the total number of points that 3 of the 4 categories can have. If you reach Paragon 800, you will have maxed the number of points that can be allocated to the Offensive, Defensive, and Utility categories and all future Paragon levels will grant you a point in the Core Stat category instead.

    My only concern might be that if you just keep leveling, can your DPS get so high you steamroll even the hardest content? Probably not. But I'd hate to see this be the case.

    Also, the core stat category is probably going to be very obvious and tedious which point you put into every time for many players with the way most players tend to focus solely on DPS and main stat over anything else. But let us hope that might not be the case if the game becomes more challenging, VIT or extra armor from STR could be viable. Or maybe changes to the other stats are being tweaked as well?
  • #5
    I'm not sure I like this system. I rather have the flexibility to put whatever point into whatever category. I dont like that only 1 out of every 4 levels I get a point into a specific category.
  • #6
    Quote from itirnitii

    For anyone TL;DR this is pretty much the only new bit of information

    Originally Posted by Travis Day (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)


    Paragon level 1 gives you a point to spend in a Core Stat, Paragon 2 gives you a point in the Offensive category, 3 is Defensive, and 4 is Utility (Adventure). Each Paragon level past that follows the same pattern. At present all categories other than Core Stats (Str, Int, Dex, Vit) have a cap on the number of points that can be allocated to them, which also means there is a cap to the total number of points that 3 of the 4 categories can have. If you reach Paragon 800, you will have maxed the number of points that can be allocated to the Offensive, Defensive, and Utility categories and all future Paragon levels will grant you a point in the Core Stat category instead.

    My only concern might be that if you just keep leveling, can your DPS get so high you steamroll even the hardest content? Probably not. But I'd hate to see this be the case.

    With timed trials etc and considering the time it will probably take in the upper echelons of paragon levels with higher insane amounts of exp needed per level, I do like the system. And with the timed trials and loot runs I think I will actually enjoy going beyond those 800 levels.

    And if it were any other way, I think it's pretty obvious everyone will just be going for max dps. With this rule, Blizzard just ensures everyone feels their character is progressing at a steady rate.
  • #7
    Quote from RasAlgethi24

    I'm not sure I like this system. I rather have the flexibility to put whatever point into whatever category. I dont like that only 1 out of every 4 levels I get a point into a specific category.


    I agree. Even more so if I'm unable to have maxed MF with a single paragon 100 worth of XP. That would have been the first thing I maxed, after that probably move speed.
  • #8
    I'm sure I don't like this system.

    Why would you force us to assign points where you want?, fuck off, give us freedom.

    Thanks.
  • #9
    My guess is they want the majority of players to not be strictly DPS oriented. If we can place our points wherever we're just going to pick a category and max it, then move to the next category and max it, and repeat ad nauseum which isn't that enthralling. Now at least we raise four category at once? I'm not sure my opinion on it, but I'm not too upset about it.
  • #10
    Gonna agree with most, forcing us not to place points into whatever we value most first is awkward and probably unnecessary.

    Is balance really going to be out of whack if someone maxes out stat X instead of stat Y with his first, and most accessible, paragon points? If you don't want paragon50 people to have 50 pts into critdmg, perhaps you should have critdmg max out at 20 points. It's not that hard and way better than forcing the completionists to not be able to complete, the minmaxers to not be able to minmax and the rest of us to just wonder what in the hell is going on...
  • #11
    Quote from itirnitii

    My guess is they want the majority of players to not be strictly DPS oriented. If we can place our points wherever we're just going to pick a category and max it, then move to the next category and max it, and repeat ad nauseum which isn't that enthralling. Now at least we raise four category at once? I'm not sure my opinion on it, but I'm not too upset about it.


    If that is the reason, then they need to fix the problem, not force us to "handle" it.

    If everyone allocates points in DPS, because it's the obvious choice, then something is very wrong.
  • #12
    I want flexibility in the paragon system. If someone is short on defensive stats from gear, they can make it up through putting more points into that category, if people need it elsewhere, they fill holes there. I dont like forcing us to an even spread in each category.
  • #13
    Quote from RasAlgethi24

    I want flexibility in the paragon system. If someone is short on defensive stats from gear, they can make it up through putting more points into that category, if people need it elsewhere, they fill holes there. I dont like forcing us to an even spread in each category.


    Expressed that way, it would seem like something that Blizzard would cave on.

    Personally, I don't have too much of an issue with this system until you've spent 50 points in Core (and the other three tabs). Then, your next 50 in Core will probably go to Vitality even though they'd obviously be spent better elsewhere. But the next set of 50 is going to be your two off-stats which have very marginal gains. Being forced into putting 50 into dex and 50 into int (let's pretend the toon in question is a Barb) before you can get other, more pertinent, stats... seems a little wonky and contrived to me. Unless, of course, those stats have some tangible effect on my barb beyond a small amount of dodge and resist all.
    p400 :: 85.1k EK :: 2.38m TK
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  • #14
    Quote from Indimix

    I'm sure I don't like this system.

    Why would you force us to assign points where you want?, fuck off, give us freedom.

    Thanks.



    Hey while they are at it, why are we only allowed 6 skills? GIVE US FREEDOM! LET US USE ALL THE RUNES FOR EVERY SKILL AT ONCE!!

    It's called balance. Settle down.
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChB2_IPc-HVXbi0jS1Riljg
    ^ YouTube.Com/IceBleuGaming ! It's a thing! Check it oooout!
  • #15
    Quote from shaggy

    Quote from RasAlgethi24

    I want flexibility in the paragon system. If someone is short on defensive stats from gear, they can make it up through putting more points into that category, if people need it elsewhere, they fill holes there. I dont like forcing us to an even spread in each category.


    Expressed that way, it would seem like something that Blizzard would cave on.

    Personally, I don't have too much of an issue with this system until you've spent 50 points in Core (and the other three tabs). Then, your next 50 in Core will probably go to Vitality even though they'd obviously be spent better elsewhere. But the next set of 50 is going to be your two off-stats which have very marginal gains. Being forced into putting 50 into dex and 50 into int (let's pretend the toon in question is a Barb) before you can get other, more pertinent, stats... seems a little wonky and contrived to me. Unless, of course, those stats have some tangible effect on my barb beyond a small amount of dodge and resist all.


    Remember, they said core stats don't have a cap.
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChB2_IPc-HVXbi0jS1Riljg
    ^ YouTube.Com/IceBleuGaming ! It's a thing! Check it oooout!
  • #16
    Don't forget we've been told that we can respec the points at "any time". :)

    So I see conflict with the point allocation restriction.
    sto lavorando
  • #17
    There is no need for a conflict. From what Travis Day explained, you get 1 point for each tab in every 4 levels. So in plvl 20, you will get 5 points for each tab. So when you reset, you will probably get 5 points for each tab; not 20 points to spend on any tab.
  • #18
    Quote from Indimix
    If that is the reason, then they need to fix the problem, not force us to "handle" it.

    If everyone allocates points in DPS, because it's the obvious choice, then something is very wrong.


    I don't think this is a problem (one can argue if it is actually a problem) that can be solved. Killing monsters and improving yourself to kill them faster is the core of Diablo. In Diablo 2, you could spend your skill trees freely (and even in Diablo 2 we had restrictions for more powerful skills in the case of tied skills); and even then, people put their skills to where they get more dps. Why Amazons never put more than one point into dodge skills? Why Barbarians only put one skill in Iron Skin? Why Salvation, Bone Armor, Fade and many other defensive skills only get one point? Because other skills makes you kill faster; and by killing faster, you lessen the need for defense.

    If we can put our paragon points freely, then the same will happen in Diablo 3. People will max CHC, CHD, AS and put every point in main stat, ignoring the rest (maybe except movement speed). As you can see, there is not much game here.
  • #19
    I have actually just one major concern that I haven't seen being mentioned anywhere: will paragon become mandatory?

    When they introduced paragon they stressed over and over again that they don't want to make paragon farming to become a mandatory chore. Now, seeing that for example the crit chance from the offensive tab might be super important, I'm (as always) worried about the gap between the sub-p100 players (many people don't have more than 1 billion paragon XP yet) and those with multiple p100's (there are quite a few with more than 500 combined paragon levels, which is around 10 billion paragon XP). I wonder if that means that in order to play with someone who is paragon 300, I need much much much higher gear in order to be on the same level (in terms of EHP and DPS). With a free system and no constraints you could at least skip utility and offense and boost your EHP...
  • #20
    I wonder what will happen if I delete a character (after parangon 2.0) in order to start a new one. Will that character's xp be lost ?
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