No, they won't replace the AH. Trade needs to be painful.

  • #21
    Quote from Solmyr77

    If trading items will in fact take much longer than it used to, we'll have a "working as intended"-situation, where time spent actually playing (=killing stuff) might be as (or rather: more!) effective as (than) time spent browsing some sort of item-database. Whether this database is integrated into the game menu or not, who cares?


    As long as a single desirable item with a low drop rate is in the game, trading will be more efficient. Having to trade outside the game will lead to more time away from killing monsters. You really dont get it, do you ?
  • #22
    I think that they should put a giant banner on the login screen the first time you start the game that would say that unless you use the in-game trade chat, Blizzard won't refund/restore anything in case of account hack or trade scam.


    Haha, yeah because the trade chat will be scam free. I actually did lol when I read that :-)

    Plus it would be so simple to get around. Find deal on 3rd party, log into game and just repeat it in chat, suddenly its legit?
  • #23
    I just don't understand this post. The game is supposed to be painful? No, it needs to be fun and enjoyable. Trading is an optional feature in the game, just like the AH was. Now instead of everyone being close to the same level, only the people willing to take the risk of buying gold and items from third parties are going to have the upper hand in the game, just as before with using the RMAH. Except now it's all behind doors and not supported by Blizzard, so maybe that's what everyone wanted, but I think it's ignorant.

    So how are we really solving here? People are still going to complain, unless they come up with an amazing and PAINLESS trading system that doesn't make you turn into a Blizzard CM and scour through a wall of text just to find something legit.
  • #24
    Quote from Twoflower

    Quote from Solmyr77

    If trading items will in fact take much longer than it used to, we'll have a "working as intended"-situation, where time spent actually playing (=killing stuff) might be as (or rather: more!) effective as (than) time spent browsing some sort of item-database. Whether this database is integrated into the game menu or not, who cares?


    As long as a single desirable item with a low drop rate is in the game, trading will be more efficient. Having to trade outside the game will lead to more time away from killing monsters. You really dont get it, do you ?


    I'm not sure if you've understood the point of the OP. Trading should be made more inefficient so that killing monsters and finding their own loot is the more efficient way of obtaining upgrades for new players. And even for end game, finding your own loot should be a reasonable alternative to trading. At the moment, trading via the AH is the most efficient way of obtaining loot for every character at any level. After the AHs close doors, trading may or will be more efficient only for the players who've been grinding the end game for a while. And that is how it should be.
  • #25
    Quote from Twoflower

    Quote from Bagstone

    The AH was just too simple, too easy, and made playing obsolete. This is why OP is absolutely right. As I mentioned somewhere else, if they allow some "AH in the nutshell" via the vendor where you can put up some items like on the AH and random other items show up, it could work, as it doesn't allow for millions of items being searched and traded, but only a few occasional trades.



    And where did you get the value to trade in the AH ? Oh, by playing the game you say ? Oh the irony.

    "only a few occasional trades" is a illusion. People will just trade outside the game. Removing the AH does only make it more time consuming, nothing else. Which is great cause that way we will spend less time playing the game, that's what we always wanted rigth ?

    You guys just dont think it trough. Nothing new on this site though...


    Right, you're the only enlightened clown here, everyone else is dumb.
    If you truly can't avoid spending hours and hours on 3rd party sale sites and risk getting scammed just to "get ahead" in a game with basically no competitive elements in it, then your problems go well beyond Diablo 3.
  • #26
    Quote from maka

    If you truly can't avoid spending hours and hours on 3rd party sale sites and risk getting scammed just to "get ahead" in a game with basically no competitive elements in it, then your problems go well beyond Diablo 3.


    Agreed... but I think that mentality applies equally to people who can't avoid spending hours in the RMAH or the GAH, honestly. People like to talk about visibility, but my buddy today was raging that they're taking out the AH because he spends "50% of his time" in the AHs and he "enjoys it more than the actual game" and I thought.... well, buddy, you are part of the problem, not part of the solution.

    That being said, I don't think that trading needs to be punitive. I don't think ANY aspect of a game should be not fun by design. That's asinine, and that's where I take issue with the OPs idea. This is a game - a franchise - with tradeable loot. Saying that trading should be punitive and painful is, frankly, douchey. I agree that people who choose not to trade should be able to see success in the game. But I don't agree that someone who has been unlucky and not found a Windforce, but who has found 14 Lacuni Prowlers, should feel like the game is out to get him when he attempts to trade surplus for shortages. The game already has screwed him by RNG. There needs not be more screwing in the name of forcing people to play the "real" way.

    Just remember, this is a game. If you find an item that you truly don't want to use, you shouldn't think "Wow, I'd like to trade this for something more useful but trading makes me want to stick my testicles in a blender so I'll just put it in my stash and hope RNG is better for me." That's decidedly NOT fun. And games should be fun.
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  • #27
    Adding my experience from PoE, a game that does have a competitive edge to it and a much smaller and more focused/hardcore playerbase than Diablo, in regards to trading in shady sites / rmt etc .

    It does happen among the elite players. The vast majority of the playerbase have no idea whatsoever, or inclination thereof, to search for 3rd party sites that accomodate trading, be they rmt or simple search engines that browse the game's official trade forums.

    I base this on the fact that I've sold a LOT more items while bumping my own thread in the forums than people randomly messaging me when they found an item I was selling through an indexer. There is 0 evidence supporting the idea that a large amount of the playerbase will conduct its business anywhere other than the official forums / ingame chat. Removing the AH will in effect vastly reduce the volume of items getting traded.

    +1 to OP, very well said.
  • #28
    Quote from shaggy

    Quote from maka

    If you truly can't avoid spending hours and hours on 3rd party sale sites and risk getting scammed just to "get ahead" in a game with basically no competitive elements in it, then your problems go well beyond Diablo 3.


    Agreed... but I think that mentality applies equally to people who can't avoid spending hours in the RMAH or the GAH, honestly. People like to talk about visibility, but my buddy today was raging that they're taking out the AH because he spends "50% of his time" in the AHs a


    Of course it applies. The comedic value of this whole situation is in the fact that the people that are now complaining were the same people that were throwing around 'arguments' like "you don't HAVE to use the AH, it just takes a bit of self-control". Well, you don't have to use 3rd party sites......it just takes a bit of self-control.
  • #29
    * As long as trading is relatively "effortless", you will get loot 10-20x faster by selling every item you find, and only getting upgrades from the AH. This order-of-magnitude multiplier is a mathematical certainty, regardless of how bad or how good the loot is.

    * Making trading "painful" (difficult and time consuming) introduces the possibility that you will get loot faster by playing self-found and not trading at all. This is a good thing.

    * No matter how difficult trading is, there will always exist a certain gear level where trading is more efficient than self-found. However, it is possible that most players are optimal, or near-optimal with self-found play. (for example - nearly all "casual" Diablo 2 players played self-found or very close to self-found)

    * In an "efficient trading" universe, you only get a 15% incremental value from sharing free items among a trusted social circle - the difference between AH tax and no AH tax. Yet you get 1000% or more value from selling items on the AH, compared to playing self-found. This creates a strong disincentive to share items with your friends. In D2 if my RL friend found an item that's godly for my Sorc (and he doesn't have a Sorc), he would give me the item for free. (and vice versa if I found something for his Zon) In D3 if he found a comparable item, he would look on the RMAH and see that it's $100, and there's no way he'd give me the item for free.

    * In a "painful trading" universe, you get an extremely high incremental value from freely sharing items. If a group of 6 friends shares free items, each friend has access to a pool of items that's 6x as large as self-found. (+500%) This is a much larger efficiency benefit than barter-style trading (which is inefficient and vulnerable to mistrades and/or scamming). Therefore, everyone has an incentive to share, and having trustworthy friends is worth major in-game benefits.
  • #30
    I made a ton of money in the auction house, and in that regard, I am sad to see it go. However, I know it ultimately robbed me of the experience I yearned for before its release. I agree with the OP. 1000%.
  • #31
    Quote from Zeon1129

    you DON'T find a good item every 20h with this itemization...

    Itemization at launch IS what killed the AH. Not the easy access to it.

    We had NO CHOICE other than to use both AH's because items that drop are just EXTREMELY BAD unless you run a bot and manage to have tons of each items to ID and roll one good.



    Fix the goddamn itemization and people will leave AH by themselves! or maybe only using it to buy crafting mats and gems.


    Even with great itemization, you'll always be a step behind gear on the AH, because your 2000 hours will always be less than the combined hours of 3 million players and the loot that has brought.

    As someone who played D2 for 8 years without trading a single item I'm not too worried about the lack of an AH.
  • #32
    I totally agree with OP!!
  • #34
    Quote from Bagstone

    Thank you, brx, for pulling out this picture. I'm gonna bookmark your post, I feel it will come in handy a couple of times within the next few days/weeks ;-)

    It's been a long time since I've read the original post.


    I add my thanks!

    Trade should be completely removed from the game? I think no but a better solution is needed.
    Perhaps we should open a post and start brainstorming, maybe Blizz will take notice if we think of a good solution.

    As OP stated the actual AH system is NOT a good solution.
    It grants too easy access to powerful items to too many players too quickly which, as a consequence, lead to:
    1) too many powerful chars farming at high MP and thus injecting an even greater amount of items in the AH
    2) the game feels too easy (if you buy stuff, and so came MP)
    3) not rewarding enough (aka nothing good drops, and so came BoA recipes)
    4) with no end content (item hunting is a powerful motivation but why should you play again and again if nothing good will drop and anyway you can buy it and save the hassle? and so....Paragon and Hellfire Ring)
    5) just frustrating (aka why am I being punished for not buying my way to efficiency? see picture posted by brx)

    Also whenever Blizz devs thought about a fix or a new feature or a change in geme mechanic they had to factor in the AH (again, see picture posted by brx) which most often than not it's been a limiting factor.

    Now they are rid of it and can have a much freer approach.
  • #35
    I don't understand... they remove AHs so people play the game itself more, but with in-game trade being the only trade option people will spend days and days just looking for items they want. I am not even mentioning that trading sites will shine and a lot of people will just spend their time their.

    Yeah I may have spent hundreds of hours in AH in Diablo 3, but I spent just as much or more hours in trading sites in Diablo 2.

    That said, I see a lot of advantages of removing AHs.
    You should never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
  • #36
    To be honest I love to trade I remember I used to spend hours in D2 just trading gear, most of the time i made good trades and combined with farming runs I was able to progress into higher levels of gear. Only problem with D2 for me was the fact that at some point in gear curve the drop chance for BIS gear was so small that people either overpriced the gear or just wanted strait up cash for it. After that happened jsp started up and everyone and their mom started to sell their top gear there. I feel that trading is needed for the game to feel complete. I also don't know how I feel about smart drops I mean it will get boring when you have mostly BIS gear yet only gear for your character keeps drops even thou it is a side-grade at that point, but only time will tell.

    All in all I hope blizzard at lest give back trading channels and good ways to make trade games otherwise there will be a lot of scamming going on which will just make them do work they don't want to do.
  • #37
    Quote from Kblavkalash

    I don't understand... they remove AHs so people play the game itself more, but with in-game trade being the only trade option people will spend days and days just looking for items they want. I am not even mentioning that trading sites will shine and a lot of people will just spend their time their.

    Yeah I may have spent hundreds of hours in AH in Diablo 3, but I spent just as much or more hours in trading sites in Diablo 2.

    That said, I see a lot of advantages of removing AHs.


    Why not substitute those "AH hours" for "in-game hours" instead of "3rd party site hours"?
  • #38
    Completely agree with the OP.
    This is one of the best things they could have done to improve the state of in-game community and trading in general. Bring on the trade channels!
    "Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the small death that brings total obliteration."
  • #39
    Quote from MaddogBG012788

    All in all I hope blizzard at lest give back trading channels and good ways to make trade games otherwise there will be a lot of scamming going on which will just make them do work they don't want to do.


    There will be a lot of scamming regardless. Unless they come up with a bullet-proof solution (which I highly doubt).
  • #40
    while I think the in game chat need to be more active, specially in the Europe Zone, the closure of the system can be pretty nice. For example I been working on a project mainly academic and personal upgrading skills that can have more meaning at the moment, it's a community house auction and also have a GLOBAL chat in it.. I had created a discussion regarding that that you can follow up @ http://www.diablofans.com/topic/103266-d3-community-auction-house-live/
  • #41
    Quote from shaggy

    Just remember, this is a game. If you find an item that you truly don't want to use, you shouldn't think "Wow, I'd like to trade this for something more useful but trading makes me want to stick my testicles in a blender so I'll just put it in my stash and hope RNG is better for me." That's decidedly NOT fun. And games should be fun.


    This is why I like the AH. Not because I think it was 100% successful, but it was because it was an attempt to fix a major flaw (IMO) with D2. Of the 10+ characters I maxed in the game, I think I made...2 trades?


    Quote from maka

    Quote from Kblavkalash

    I don't understand... they remove AHs so people play the game itself more, but with in-game trade being the only trade option people will spend days and days just looking for items they want. I am not even mentioning that trading sites will shine and a lot of people will just spend their time their.

    Yeah I may have spent hundreds of hours in AH in Diablo 3, but I spent just as much or more hours in trading sites in Diablo 2.

    That said, I see a lot of advantages of removing AHs.


    Why not substitute those "AH hours" for "in-game hours" instead of "3rd party site hours"?


    Because 1 hour of AH/3rd party site is like 20+ hours in game? And that's probably a massive low ball. A lot of people play the game for the sense of progression. I, personally, do not. I stop playing when it's not fun, and getting new gear is only a small percentage of that. But others do.



    Anyway, I really hope they come up with something to replace the AH. And by replace, I mean something that makes it so you can barter in ways other than a stupid amount of threads/named games (which you couldn't do when I played last spring, and I assume you still can't do).

    Perhaps it's a barter house, where you post what items you want to trade, and what items you want to trade for, and you can search by items you want, items others want, and specific trades (this for that). If they did this, they would have to make it anonymous, and it would still be painful, because you have to hope that someone, somewhere, wants what you have, has what you want, AND is using the trade system.

    I also hope they have a good alternate to trading. Perhaps increase the value you can get by selling/salvaging? The idea is "I have this legendary that I won't, and I don't want to bother trading, therefore, howerver, I can get something useful from vendors, so that is what I'll do." That would be my guess at what brimstone is for, it is just that the AH combined with not so good crafting made it not so useful.
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