Rewarding the Loot Hunt - Loot 2.0

  • #122
    Quote from shaggy

    Quote from Solmyr77

    shaggy, you're missing an important point:
    No matter, how good the items are that the individual finds during his play sessions. If the very same items can be traded penalty-free, they will be on the AH long before he gets to find them himself. Thus he is still better off getting them there. Carrot in your face syndrome all over again.


    If self-found is enjoyable enough that people don't click the AH button then what's it matter what's on the AH?

    That was the whole fucking point of that article... making self-found fun, and rewarding, enough that people don't bother with the AH button. This was very much do-able in D2. I don't know why, suddenly, in D3 people are whining that trading will always be better. It was better in D2 too. No one gave a shit because self-found was rewarding and enjoyable so people who didn't want to trade .... didn't.


    It's that carrot in your face problem. If I only have to make 3 simple clicks to get a better Mempo than I could ever find, it feels stupid not to take it, rendering my own stuff useless in the process.
    I apologize for any formating issues in my posts, I just can't use the new editor.Currently playing Magic 2014, see my thread:http://www.diablofans.com/topic/97565-magic-2014/
    Also, if you like Classics, try:Dungeons and Dragons Anthology ( http://www.gamersgat...ster-collection )
  • #123
    Quote from shaggy

    Quote from Solmyr77

    shaggy, you're missing an important point:
    No matter, how good the items are that the individual finds during his play sessions. If the very same items can be traded penalty-free, they will be on the AH long before he gets to find them himself. Thus he is still better off getting them there. Carrot in your face syndrome all over again.


    If self-found is enjoyable enough that people don't click the AH button then what's it matter what's on the AH?

    That was the whole fucking point of that article... making self-found fun, and rewarding, enough that people don't bother with the AH button. This was very much do-able in D2. I don't know why, suddenly, in D3 people are whining that trading will always be better. It was better in D2 too. No one gave a shit because self-found was rewarding and enjoyable so people who didn't want to trade .... didn't.


    Uhm.... do you really think that i can find the best items in the game by actually playing the game right now? Chances are it's going to take me years of farming to accomplish that on my own. However, farming the ah allows you to get incredibly good gear in less than 2 months of playing the ah simulator( taking into account the time it takes to learn the prices and getting very good at flipping). That's not "playing the game".
  • #124
    Quote from Solmyr77

    Quote from shaggy

    Quote from Solmyr77

    shaggy, you're missing an important point:
    No matter, how good the items are that the individual finds during his play sessions. If the very same items can be traded penalty-free, they will be on the AH long before he gets to find them himself. Thus he is still better off getting them there. Carrot in your face syndrome all over again.


    If self-found is enjoyable enough that people don't click the AH button then what's it matter what's on the AH?

    That was the whole fucking point of that article... making self-found fun, and rewarding, enough that people don't bother with the AH button. This was very much do-able in D2. I don't know why, suddenly, in D3 people are whining that trading will always be better. It was better in D2 too. No one gave a shit because self-found was rewarding and enjoyable so people who didn't want to trade .... didn't.


    It's that carrot in your face problem. If I only have to make 3 simple clicks to get a better Mempo than I could ever find, it feels stupid not to take it, rendering my own stuff useless in the process.


    Pretty much this ^
  • #125
    Quote from shaggy



    You keep quoting that. You do realize that article makes it PATENTLY clear that Blizzard believes Loot 2.0, crafting, and the Mystic will very much achieve the goal of de-emphasizing the AH right?

    Nowhere in that article did ANYONE at Blizzard say that killing monsters should result in BETTER gear than trading. They simply said they want to change people's play priorities. That's the whole problem with this suggestion and I can't believe I continue to explain this.

    This doesn't fix the itemization problems that are driving people to the AH. You can throw all the "pristine" shit around that you want, it doesn't change a fuckin thing. All that "pristine" becomes, based on the OP suggestion, is a shot in the dark to have a 20% better item. People are pushed towards the AH because of itemization issues, period. When you have less than a .1% chance to actually find your own gear then you're going to move on to what satisfies that need to find an upgrade.

    I know plenty of people who WANT to play self-found but won't do so until it's a rewarding experience. They don't care if some guy uses the AH and gets more DPS than they do. What they want is self-found to be REWARDING. It currently is not. if you change that, there are tons of people who would switch, regardless.

    Nothing about these "pristine" items makes self-found more rewarding. At best it's a half-baked add-on to the upcoming changes Blizzard has planned. But, without those changes, this suggestion doesn't do anything to fix the core problems players are facing. Without Loot 2.0 items will still be random, legendaries will still be brimstones most of the time, etc. You can stick a "pristine" tag on a piece of shit, but it's still a piece of shit.

    I'd rather focus on making sure that items aren't pieces of shit as opposed to try and figure out how to fake people into thinking they're good. When I find a pair of Frosties I'm not going to give two fucks if they're pristine or not. What I want to know is that the damned item is good, and useable, not that it's a dogshit item with 20% more stats on it.

    So, given that "pristine" items hinge on Loot 2.0 to actually be part of that rewarding self-found experience, why not just focus feedback directly on Loot 2.0 instead of ancillary systems? Why not fix the crux of the problem instead of performing a rain dance around the problem without ever addressing it?


    While i agree that fixing the problem at its core is ideal, because of the ah's convenience and efficiency, loot 2.0 will have a new norm, which i'll never be able to reach by just playing the game, a conclusion drawn from the information given to us. Maybe they have something else for blizzcon, but i think we can agree that if fixing the problem doesn't include a system that draws us from the ah, nothing will change. While the mystic does fill up that role of drawing us from the ah, it's not enough. That's where the pristine mechanic comes in. The mystic reroll system coupled with the pristine mechanic would be perfect to make us play the game again.
  • #126
    Shaggy's point is correct and it's the same point that blizzard is trying to make; if you're actually able to find upgrades for yourself, then the game will be a LOT more fun. I know I personally won't care what's on the AH when I know there's actually a good chance I'll find it.
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChB2_IPc-HVXbi0jS1Riljg
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  • #127
    Quote from Solmyr77
    It's that carrot in your face problem. If I only have to make 3 simple clicks to get a better Mempo than I could ever find, it feels stupid not to take it, rendering my own stuff useless in the process.


    It's called self-control. Just because the AH is there doesn't mean you have to use it. No one is forcing you.
  • #128
    Quote from Bleu42

    Shaggy's point is correct and it's the same point that blizzard is trying to make; if you're actually able to find upgrades for yourself, then the game will be a LOT more fun. I know I personally won't care what's on the AH when I know there's actually a good chance I'll find it.


    Define "good chance" to find it on your own. You know that the AH has about 5 million times that chance to "drop" this item for you.
    I apologize for any formating issues in my posts, I just can't use the new editor.Currently playing Magic 2014, see my thread:http://www.diablofans.com/topic/97565-magic-2014/
    Also, if you like Classics, try:Dungeons and Dragons Anthology ( http://www.gamersgat...ster-collection )
  • #129
    Quote from Solmyr77

    Quote from Bleu42

    Shaggy's point is correct and it's the same point that blizzard is trying to make; if you're actually able to find upgrades for yourself, then the game will be a LOT more fun. I know I personally won't care what's on the AH when I know there's actually a good chance I'll find it.


    Define "good chance" to find it on your own. You know that the AH has about 5 million times that chance to "drop" this item for you.


    Well we can take from the games con reveal that legendaries have a roughly 500% higher drop rate. We know that items can be smart drops suited for your class, and that the pool of over 200 legendaries have all been upgraded.

    I'm going out on a limb here and I'll say that playing self found will actually kick ass now.
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChB2_IPc-HVXbi0jS1Riljg
    ^ YouTube.Com/IceBleuGaming ! It's a thing! Check it oooout!
  • #130
    Quote from Vladh

    While i agree that fixing the problem at its core is ideal


    OK so you and I agree. This is a breakthrough! And it only took like 7 pages!

    Given that Blizzard is a very prominent A-One studio, why shouldn't we expect them to give us the best possible solution? Why shouldn't we expect that they knuckle down and fix the core problem?

    I don't know people who played D2 online who knew the value of an 8/8/20 Vamp Gaze. I didn't know people who would drop a 6/6/15 Vamp Gaze on the ground because they could just go to trade chat and get better items. Why? Because, somehow, D2 made a self-found experience that was rewarding enough to make people simply not worry about what they could get from trading.

    This threshold obviously differs from you to me to the next guy and is hard to peg, but it's out there because it's been done in the past.

    Bear in mind that some people WANT to be able to max their characters in a short timeframe. Some people WANT to never use the AH. And some people (I fit mostly into this bucket) simply WANT to play however we feel like at the time. I am primarily a self-found player, but if I decide I want to go to the AH and buy something I don't need Bobby Kotick to come to my house, break my kneecaps, and tell me that I'm a disgusting human being and that my mother would be disappointed in me for "cheating" my video game experience.

    So, really, what are YOU looking for from a self-found experience? If you don't want to use the AH, what would it take to make you forget it exists, regardless of what other people are doing? I'm not asking anyone to answer that publically, but figuring out what the answer is will lead you to a better understanding of the situation for yourself.

    EDIT
    I'll attempt to answer those questions here... attempt.

    In a self-found experience I simply want to feel that I have a shot to get the gear I want. I don't necessarily need BiS items, but on a scale of 1-100 (1 being a perfectly weak character and 100 being a completely decked-out character), I want self-found to give me a legitemate chance to get around 90-95. I understand that the AH and trading will generally do so faster, and that they *may* be the only way to get to 96+, and I'm generally OK with that. I just want the gap between self-found and AH to be significantly smaller than it currently is. That, in and of itself, would get me to essentially forget that the AH exists.
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  • #131
    Quote from shaggy

    Quote from Vladh

    While i agree that fixing the problem at its core is ideal


    OK so you and I agree. This is a breakthrough! And it only took like 7 pages!

    Given that Blizzard is a very prominent A-One studio, why shouldn't we expect them to give us the best possible solution? Why shouldn't we expect that they knuckle down and fix the core problem?

    I don't know people who played D2 online who knew the value of an 8/8/20 Vamp Gaze. I didn't know people who would drop a 6/6/15 Vamp Gaze on the ground because they could just go to trade chat and get better items. Why? Because, somehow, D2 made a self-found experience that was rewarding enough to make people simply not worry about what they could get from trading.

    This threshold obviously differs from you to me to the next guy and is hard to peg, but it's out there because it's been done in the past.

    Bear in mind that some people WANT to be able to max their characters in a short timeframe. Some people WANT to never use the AH. And some people (I fit mostly into this bucket) simply WANT to play however we feel like at the time. I am primarily a self-found player, but if I decide I want to go to the AH and buy something I don't need Bobby Kotick to come to my house, break my kneecaps, and tell me that I'm a disgusting human being and that my mother would be disappointed in me for "cheating" my video game experience.

    So, really, what are YOU looking for from a self-found experience? If you don't want to use the AH, what would it take to make you forget it exists, regardless of what other people are doing? I'm not asking anyone to answer that publically, but figuring out what the answer is will lead you to a better understanding of the situation for yourself.

    EDIT
    I'll attempt to answer those questions here... attempt.

    In a self-found experience I simply want to feel that I have a shot to get the gear I want. I don't necessarily need BiS items, but on a scale of 1-100 (1 being a perfectly weak character and 100 being a completely decked-out character), I want self-found to give me a legitemate chance to get around 90-95. I understand that the AH and trading will generally do so faster, and that they *may* be the only way to get to 96+, and I'm generally OK with that. I just want the gap between self-found and AH to be significantly smaller than it currently is. That, in and of itself, would get me to essentially forget that the AH exists.


    What if competitive gametypes are introduced like PvP? Gear will be a large factor towards success. While Self-finding items may be fun by that point, it doesn't mean they will be efficient enough to compete.

    I do think it's possible for Loot 2.0 to make item affixes interesting enough to reduce AH use. I think it will be very difficult to reduce the efficiency of the AH though unfortunately. I am open-minded enough to wait and see. Just thought I would bring an idea to the table, even if just a fraction it could help Blizz spark some ideas.

    As far as D2 and enjoying self-found over trading, D2 didn't have the convenience of an auction house. The Auction House sells things for you 24/7 and doesn't require hoping someone is currently online who has the item you're looking for. I'm sure if it did, the self-found experience would not be the same.
  • #132
    Quote from WarlockHolmez
    What if competitive gametypes are introduced like PvP? Gear will be a large factor towards success. While Self-finding items may be fun by that point, it doesn't mean they will be efficient enough to compete.


    if they introduced any sort of PvP (and this overall discussion is probably for a whole different thread), I'd hope they'd create PvP only skill tree and PvP only items (gained through PvPing).

    No matter what they would do they'd run into people complaining about items being bought off the AH or the exact inverse. "Man that guy is only beating me because he was lucky and has a near perfect-pristine Skorn and a bunch of other near perfect-pristine items. My RNG is shit, I quit!"
  • #133
    I dont get how anyone can be against this as long as its in addition to and not replacing any other fixes. This idea just makes it easier to find a viable item outside the auction house. It doesn't effect your ah experience at all. It's a win, win. Nevermind the numerical values, as the OP said, they're just place holders.
  • #134
    Quote from Tralfamadore

    Quote from WarlockHolmez
    What if competitive gametypes are introduced like PvP? Gear will be a large factor towards success. While Self-finding items may be fun by that point, it doesn't mean they will be efficient enough to compete.


    if they introduced any sort of PvP (and this overall discussion is probably for a whole different thread), I'd hope they'd create PvP only skill tree and PvP only items (gained through PvPing).

    No matter what they would do they'd run into people complaining about items being bought off the AH or the exact inverse. "Man that guy is only beating me because he was lucky and has a near perfect-pristine Skorn and a bunch of other near perfect-pristine items. My RNG is shit, I quit!"


    I guess the debate would be The consistency of AH farming VS The Luck of Loot Hunting, which do you prefer? Though I feel Luck would at least involve playing the game the whole time.
  • #135
    Quote from shaggy

    Quote from Vladh

    While i agree that fixing the problem at its core is ideal


    OK so you and I agree. This is a breakthrough! And it only took like 7 pages!

    Given that Blizzard is a very prominent A-One studio, why shouldn't we expect them to give us the best possible solution? Why shouldn't we expect that they knuckle down and fix the core problem?

    I don't know people who played D2 online who knew the value of an 8/8/20 Vamp Gaze. I didn't know people who would drop a 6/6/15 Vamp Gaze on the ground because they could just go to trade chat and get better items. Why? Because, somehow, D2 made a self-found experience that was rewarding enough to make people simply not worry about what they could get from trading.

    This threshold obviously differs from you to me to the next guy and is hard to peg, but it's out there because it's been done in the past.

    Bear in mind that some people WANT to be able to max their characters in a short timeframe. Some people WANT to never use the AH. And some people (I fit mostly into this bucket) simply WANT to play however we feel like at the time. I am primarily a self-found player, but if I decide I want to go to the AH and buy something I don't need Bobby Kotick to come to my house, break my kneecaps, and tell me that I'm a disgusting human being and that my mother would be disappointed in me for "cheating" my video game experience.

    So, really, what are YOU looking for from a self-found experience? If you don't want to use the AH, what would it take to make you forget it exists, regardless of what other people are doing? I'm not asking anyone to answer that publically, but figuring out what the answer is will lead you to a better understanding of the situation for yourself.

    EDIT
    I'll attempt to answer those questions here... attempt.

    In a self-found experience I simply want to feel that I have a shot to get the gear I want. I don't necessarily need BiS items, but on a scale of 1-100 (1 being a perfectly weak character and 100 being a completely decked-out character), I want self-found to give me a legitemate chance to get around 90-95. I understand that the AH and trading will generally do so faster, and that they *may* be the only way to get to 96+, and I'm generally OK with that. I just want the gap between self-found and AH to be significantly smaller than it currently is. That, in and of itself, would get me to essentially forget that the AH exists.


    Then we are in agreement. I don't want to enforce self found. Like you said, getting around 90-95 is enough, problem is, right now, i don't think we're getting anywhere around 20.

    It's just... there is a minor problem bugging me regarding the new legendaries. They will be build changing, at least i hope so, but when they'll flood the ah and make no mistake, they will, you'll still farm the ah for those new legendaries, because let's face it: why would you ever spend 5-10 hours for an item you could've gotten in less than 10 minutes with the ah.

    I don't know... i'd still like it much more if the pristine mechanic got implemented, because considering the 500% increase drop chance in legendaries, you ARE going to find legendaries by yourself, not incredibly fast, but you will find them eventually. With the ah as part of the equation, you wouldn't have an incentive to kill demons. Those legendaries would cost gold, gold is gained best by playing the AH simulator(it's the only way to get it in high amounts) and voila, we're back to farming the ah for items. Personally, given the nature of the ah/ rmah, i'd much rather have those special affixes on the legendaries as a reward for playing the game, something to long for.
  • #136
    Quote from Tralfamadore

    Quote from WarlockHolmez
    What if competitive gametypes are introduced like PvP? Gear will be a large factor towards success. While Self-finding items may be fun by that point, it doesn't mean they will be efficient enough to compete.


    if they introduced any sort of PvP (and this overall discussion is probably for a whole different thread), I'd hope they'd create PvP only skill tree and PvP only items (gained through PvPing).

    No matter what they would do they'd run into people complaining about items being bought off the AH or the exact inverse. "Man that guy is only beating me because he was lucky and has a near perfect-pristine Skorn and a bunch of other near perfect-pristine items. My RNG is shit, I quit!"


    Uhm, except there's a major flaw in your logic. Playing the game and finding some items by yourself CANNOT be compared to farming the ah and buying items with gold earned by playing the ah simulator. Those who have near perfect pristine items actually earned them, so if they beat you to a pulp, it's ok. Play the game, find pristine items and challenge him again. Also, the RNG on affixes can be circumvented by the mystic.

    But i agree that there has to be pvp gear or something to equalize the insane stats on some chars, mostly because as a self found, even with 40% stats increase on pristine items, i'd be behind the ah farmers.
  • #137
    Quote from RasAlgethi24

    I dont get how anyone can be against this as long as its in addition to and not replacing any other fixes. This idea just makes it easier to find a viable item outside the auction house. It doesn't effect your ah experience at all. It's a win, win. Nevermind the numerical values, as the OP said, they're just place holders.


    +1
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