What Made D2's Itemization so good?

  • #82
    D3 itemization is just criminally bad. Something like this shouldn't exist in 2013, and especially not by a company such as Blizzard. I'll just be short and mention the very nice fact that ALL CLASSES FUCKING WANT the exact same items, with only the primary stat varying. Head slot = only Mempo. Bracer = only Lacuni. Shoulder = only Vile Ward. Belt = only Witching Hour. Boots = only Ice Climbers. 2h weapon = only Skorn. 1h weapon = only echoing fury.

    for every. fucking. class. pointless to even discuss anything further as their entire premise with the loot system is so incredibly flawed and stupid I just can't believe any of them (or at least the ones making the decisions) ever played Diablo 2 or other good and classic RPG's.

    and the sad thing is, judging by RoS reveals so far, I'm afraid they, contrary to their claims, still don't understand the core of their itemization problems, and the Loot 2.0 will end up the same as Loot 1.0 but with higher rolls on everything.
  • #83

    D3 itemization is just criminally bad. Something like this shouldn't exist in 2013, and especially not by a company such as Blizzard. I'll just be short and mention the very nice fact that ALL CLASSES FUCKING WANT the exact same items, with only the primary stat varying. Head slot = only Mempo. Bracer = only Lacuni. Shoulder = only Vile Ward. Belt = only Witching Hour. Boots = only Ice Climbers. 2h weapon = only Skorn. 1h weapon = only echoing fury.

    for every. fucking. class. pointless to even discuss anything further as their entire premise with the loot system is so incredibly flawed and stupid I just can't believe any of them (or at least the ones making the decisions) ever played Diablo 2 or other good and classic RPG's.

    and the sad thing is, judging by RoS reveals so far, I'm afraid they, contrary to their claims, still don't understand the core of their itemization problems, and the Loot 2.0 will end up the same as Loot 1.0 but with higher rolls on everything.


    Itemization is currently bad but not all classes want the same thing. Helm? Wd's are better off with a Zuni's Vision, Wiz's use Storm crow regularly. Bracers? A lot of people use crafted ones, same goes for shoulders. Belt? Some barbs are better off with a IK Belt. Boots? Nats boots (in conjunction with the set bonuses) are the best boots for dex characters. The best dps boost for intel characters are Zunis. 2 handed weapons I'll give you. 1 handers? EF's arent mandatory at all. I actually hate EF, I only use it on my barb. Monks are generally better off without it. And if you dont duel wield, a rare actually beats out an EF since you dont take advantage of the +aps.
  • #84

    D3 itemization is just criminally bad. Something like this shouldn't exist in 2013, and especially not by a company such as Blizzard. I'll just be short and mention the very nice fact that ALL CLASSES FUCKING WANT the exact same items, with only the primary stat varying. Head slot = only Mempo. Bracer = only Lacuni. Shoulder = only Vile Ward. Belt = only Witching Hour. Boots = only Ice Climbers. 2h weapon = only Skorn. 1h weapon = only echoing fury.


    Many WDs use Zuni's helm over Mempo. Many Monks use Inna's helm over Mempo.

    Many WDs use crafted bracers over Lacunis.

    Crafted shoulders are a complete alternative to Vile Wards for all classes.

    Many Wizards and WDs use Zuni's boots over Ice Climbers. Many Monks and DHs use Nat's boots.

    Echoing Fury is completely inferior to most well-rolled rare weapons.

    You were saying?

    This guy was asking for what makes good itemization. If you can't give him reasonable feedback so he can make his own game, please don't talk shit for the sake of looking like an internet tough guy.
    66.0k elite kills :: 1.97m total kills :: p244
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  • #85

    D3 itemization is just criminally bad. Something like this shouldn't exist in 2013, and especially not by a company such as Blizzard. I'll just be short and mention the very nice fact that ALL CLASSES FUCKING WANT the exact same items, with only the primary stat varying. Head slot = only Mempo. Bracer = only Lacuni. Shoulder = only Vile Ward. Belt = only Witching Hour. Boots = only Ice Climbers. 2h weapon = only Skorn. 1h weapon = only echoing fury.

    for every. fucking. class. pointless to even discuss anything further as their entire premise with the loot system is so incredibly flawed and stupid I just can't believe any of them (or at least the ones making the decisions) ever played Diablo 2 or other good and classic RPG's.

    and the sad thing is, judging by RoS reveals so far, I'm afraid they, contrary to their claims, still don't understand the core of their itemization problems, and the Loot 2.0 will end up the same as Loot 1.0 but with higher rolls on everything.


    While I get your point it would be much better received with less broad sweeping generalizations. I know for a fact there are a few classes/specs out there that don't need the gear that is labeled as the "only" choice.
  • #86

    Most of this isn't helpful. The guy wants to know what is good about D2s loot (hell, he'll probably take examples from any ARPG, I'd guess) because he wants to use that knowledge to make his game better. Telling someone "everything was perfect with D2 loot" doesn't help because he's obviously not copying D2s loot 1-for-1. He needs specific feedback, not infographs made by some butthurt Blizztroll that aren't even factually correct.

    Some things to think about when it comes to loot:

    Player Power vs Monster Power
    In D2 you could beat the game naked. This meant that the items were sorta like... icing on the cake. An imperfect item was still viable. This is why so many people say stuff like "lower level items were viable!" These items were viable because the game was less difficult. People clamored for higher difficulty in D3, they got it, and one of the side-effects is that it puts more emphasis on attaining items that are "great" instead of just "ok." Which is better? Can't say. I'm not personally a fan of being able to beat a game that's loot-centric without any loot, though.

    Unkillable Players
    Life Leech. My favorite topic ever. In D2 you could stack this til the cows came home (err no pun intended) and make a character that, in PvM, was exceptionally difficult to kill. Was this good design? I doubt it because it was one of the first things that the D3 team nixed. It was recognized that having characters that could basically stand in anything, and who basically had infinite life and mana with fairly low gear requirements was a bad idea. I'm not saying that D3 got this right, but I would definitely caution you about not throwing stats like Life Leech (or Mana Leech) around on lots of items or, at the very least, keep careful control on it so as not to dillute the game with that particular stat. Then again, you may want to avoid it completely and go in another direction which would also be interesting.

    Skills
    This is the one area that I think D2 completely outstripped D3, although we will see how Loot 2.0 addresses it. Most of the skill-specific affixes in D3 are completely inadequate and insufferable. They're almost always inferior to other offensive stats and for most builds it's not worth having them. STONE OF JORDAN (D3) is the one major example against this because of how the item is designed. However, the +all skills and +trees were pretty slick because of how they interacted with your other choices. I took exception with +individual skills that granted the ability to gain skills from other classes (Enigma), but in general there was a better interaction. A druid helm that had +Lycanthropy, for example, was great. Allowing everyone to Teleport was a dire mistake. The only downside of this was that +all skills became a pretty ubiquitous stat and was one of the main ways to increase your damage.

    Weapons
    This is a hot topic since the D3 team decided that weapon damage determines the damage of all your abilities whereas D2 weapons had no bearing on your damage. It is my feeling that it makes no sense for an all-powerful wizard to be running around using a weapon he found at level 4 because it's got better stats. No one complains that armor = defense and that higher level items have more armor. Yet somehow people complain about what amounts to a mechanic that ensures that some dinky level 4 newbie wand isn't the best item in the game. I don't get it, I never will. Is it a bit strange that a fireball from the sky takes your weapon damage into account? Sure. Does it provide better gameplay? Absolutely. As an adventurer why wouldn't your weapon be one of your most important items?

    Charms
    Never ask people to trade inventory space for power. It was a great idea in theory. In practice it was a massive annoyance. Items should be equipped. If they are to be carried around on your person then put them in some "bag" or "pouch" that is separate from the actual inventory. Do not use inventory space for this. It's infuriating.

    That's all I have in terms of actual feedback on the subject, OP. I hope it helps give insight for your items in your game!

    For sure! Thanks for the constructive feedback! In my game all the skills are based on you weapon damage, but I'm still wondering if that's the best way to go about it.
    My thinking: Maybe do a hybrid between weapon damage and elemental type damage. For example, if fireball does 125% weapon damage now, maybe it would do 60% weapon damage and 10 Fire damage (increased by X% to Fire damage stat).

    In terms of difficulty of the monsters, there are 3 levels of difficulty: I, II, III (easy enough)
    The default is the easiest, which I balance the game around. A couple of people have complained how feeling nearly invincible makes the game seem pointless, so I'm trying to decrease the amount of OP items right at the start and make the player feel like they worked for those 5 property items, not just receive them easily at level one.
    Diablo 3 made yellow items pretty darn rare throughout pretty much all of act one on normal, then increased their drop rates (it seems). It felt annoying, but it solves perhaps larger issues.

    Another itemization feature I'm going to try is making the items with less properties have higher potential values on them for the stats. For example: a 5 property rare can roll between 10-15% attack speed. With this new system, a blue item with 2 properties could roll between 15-20% attack speed.

    Everything's up in the air still, and I can't wait to read the rest of these posts and for future responses :)
  • #87

    If I were to build a game, I'd rather copy D3's itemization (or TL1).

    I played a bit of TL1, and would like to know what you thought was so great about that game's itemization.

    With my game, I guess its more comparable to TL1 in that the game is kind of short, and that technically it goes on forever, but the final boss can be reached in about an hour. This is on purpose, as I love an EXTREMELY fast paced game, and how sometimes I feel arpgs can be a little too slow for my taste. That's just my personal opinion, and I still love the genre (or else I wouldn't make an arpg).
  • #88

    UI plays a huge part with items too :)

    How would you say UI affects itemization specifically? A few others fave mentioned this but I can never seem to get a clear response on it.
    My game uses a pretty basic itemization UI: 25 inventory slots, 5 equipment slots, 4 skill gem slots. You can right click to equip, left click and drag, etc. Is there something intrinsic I'm missing that is unnoticeable at a glance but makes an under the hood difference?
  • #89

    And +skills were never random rolls - you couldn't roll between 1 and 50 +skill. In D3, all relevant stats have pretty huge ranges, which adds to the perception that the itemization sucks.

    I'm still messing with the item ranges to figure out a good balance of random and pointless.
    If I'm understanding this whole discussion at all (somewhat difficult to extrapolate from varying opinions but trying hard), +1 skill was an easy way to boost DPS.
    Perhaps in my game a good way to do this would be to have items that give +1 fire skills, or +1 melee skills, or +1 area skills
  • #90

    I think no one has mentioned prefixes and suffixes yet, just affixes like they are now in D3.

    D2 had many interesting affixes, yes, but it also included the inability of many of the flat out best affixes to roll together. With enough interesting affixes this wouldn't be an issue with D3, however this is not the case.

    Let's take, for example, a weapon in D3. It can roll +flat dmg, +dmg%, +crit dmg, +socket, +attack speed, +mainstat. This is the perfect roll for all builds and all characters dps wise, no exceptions. Lifesteal might be more desirable instead of attack speed or mainstat if you can't get any of it elsewhere, but that's it. Any other affix is, by comparison, bad.
    Let's now imagine that these all could not roll at the same time. A rare could still have 6 mods, however 3 would have to be prefixes and 3 affixes. You could have 4+ of these mods as prefixes. Some builds would value +flat dmg and +attack speed more than +mainstat or +dmg%. Even if it's still just boring dps increases we're dealing with, now there's some flavor to it. The perfect weapon isn't predetermined for all situations anymore.

    This is obviously just a band-aid for the 'we don't have enough interesting stats to throw at you' problem. But it's a pretty good band-aid and it could be argued that even if there were 10 equally desirable stats, giving the itemization team the ability to disallow a few of them from rolling together would be a powerful tool in their hands. A lot more powerful than just disallowing more brackets from the same category of affix to roll together, like it is currently.

    The way I've attempted to deal with the whole CC/CD thing in my game was by only allowing CC to roll on weapons, with a higher number value compared to D3. We'll see if it works out well :)
  • #91

    if you hand Lord Voldemort a shitty wand he's still Lord Voldemort. the ideal wand maximises his power but even with a shitty wand he's still one of the most powerful wizards alive....

    I'd simply like to point out that in the 7th he spent countless resources trying to obtain the elder wand so he could kill Harry ;)
  • #92
    This is a truly great thread. I'm creating my own Diablo game like the OP, but mine is a SC2 map (based on D1) and I plan to add a skill system loosely based on D2. Thanks for everyone that posted. :)

    Some design aspects I took away from this thread:
    - Make weapons grant a stat called Spellpower that non-weapon related spells rely on. Some item types (like 2-handed) should grant more of that, but in general every weapon should add it.
    - Spellpower should only influence a smaller part of the spell's damage. Then the power on the weapon isn't mandatory. D3's system with everything being based on DPS which heavily relied on the weapon (due to all other things being factors for the weapon's damage) isn't the way to go.
    - Make skills using weapons rely on weapon damage.
    - As I'm recreating D1, heroes learn arcane spells via books found in the dungeon. Spellpower would influence the strength (damage/mana costs) of those spells, so a Melee class might benefit from spell power on their weapons, too.
    - No +allSkills as they boost too much at once.
    - Separate weapon speed and cast speed.
    - Multiple affixes that alter the same aspect, but in different ways (for example: +Defense, +Defense%, +DefenseBasedOnCharLevel) => creates multiple good choices. Best possible item version might be rarer than before, but you end up with more good items.


    I really liked in D3's design that stats actually matter to your hero (-> later you noticed that they matter way too much) and that spells rely on the items rather than relying on nothing [excluding +spell affixes] (=> most D2 spells).

    D2's stats had little impact, if it wasn't vitality. That's something that should be improved, though. So, you would have specialized affixes (direct specific changes) and fairly good affixes (stats that influence a lot of things).

    For example, Strength improves weapon damage, weapon hit chance, dodge chance (= D2 defense) and improves critical chance. Another aspect Strength could alter would be physical damage resistance.
    Dexterity would improve the same things as Strength except for physical resistance, but with a higher focus on dodge and weapon hit chance than strength and as a unique aspect: block chance.
    The used weapon type would have different percentages for strength and dexterity to influence the weapon's damage. Swords would benefit more from dexterity than an axe.
    Vitality adds life and raises the chance to avoid triggering the own hit recovery (for the sake of not making vitality OP, there shouldn't be high +life% affixes in the game or just none).
    Magic/Intelligence/Energy adds mana, improves arcane spells (damage and/or spell's to hit chance). ["Spells" missing a target deal 25% damage rather than 100%] and add a resistance value to the elements. In D2, you would never want to spend points in energy, afaIk.
    This makes the stats very complex to understand, but they provide bonuses which are all good to have.

    D3 cut the hit/miss chances on monsters completely. This makes the battles more reliable, less frustrating and plan-able, but it makes the item requirements simpler. I think PoE did a good job keeping the miss chance in the mechanics, but raising the average hit chance to a value where it's unlikely that you miss a lot of attacks after another. Missing multiple attacks without dealing damage is something that can create frustration.

    Also, I think that D3 shouldn't have gone the simpler mechanics way. Examples of aspects that became simpler:
    - no miss chance => no attack rating affixes => simpler dexterity stats, less frustration because of missed attacks, ranged combat became predictable (like 2 attacks per monster and it is dead)
    - +Vitality and +Life merged => less complexity of affixes between classes
    - no passive life regeneration on monsters => no benefit of poison damage or monster healing prevention affix, life value is more readable
    - no chance to make monsters not spawn a corpse. Blizzard could have added monster types that benefit from corpses (resurrecting/exploding/spawning new monsters/totems, ...), but that aspect of D2 was cut rather than developed/used. D2 only used fallen shamans on corpses, if I remember it correctly. But affixes preventing such a system might be very gimmicky.
    - monsters have no resistances => less cluttered UI, but simpler mechanics
    - elemental damage has no effect except for cold damage slowing => elemental damage doesn't matter in PvM
    - no hit recovery (on heroes) => no affixes to reduce hit recovery, combat might feel much smoother without it

    I assume these mechanics add to the linearity of the affixes in D3.
  • #93


    And +skills were never random rolls - you couldn't roll between 1 and 50 +skill. In D3, all relevant stats have pretty huge ranges, which adds to the perception that the itemization sucks.

    I'm still messing with the item ranges to figure out a good balance of random and pointless.
    If I'm understanding this whole discussion at all (somewhat difficult to extrapolate from varying opinions but trying hard), +1 skill was an easy way to boost DPS.
    Perhaps in my game a good way to do this would be to have items that give +1 fire skills, or +1 melee skills, or +1 area skills


    Yes, lots going on in this thread!

    What I was trying to say with regard to +skills is that they have three main benefits: first, they scale well. +1 to All Skills was just as valuable to a level 50 character as it was to a level 70 character. Second, there wasn't a huge range - you could find +1 or +2 to All Skills, and that was it. This means that you can't get a bad roll, unlike D3 where STR can add a lot of damage, but an item can have between 1 (terrible) and 300 (amazing). Finally, it was usually guaranteed - unique items either had it or didn't, there was no randomness.

    People forget that although D2 had a "random" item system, most builds used primarily unique weapons which had fixed stats. They had ranges, so your Doombringer might have 250% damage up to 300% damage, but that was about it. Even a low-roll Doombringer was decent. Thinking about your standard Hammerdin, for example, the normal setup was all uniques and runewords. You could get away with rare jewelry if you wanted to, as long as it had certain stats.

    So the main point is, don't make your high-end loot as random as it is in D3. The random stuff should be for leveling up, and then when you get toward the end, you get into the uniques which are pretty specific.
  • #94


    UI plays a huge part with items too :)

    How would you say UI affects itemization specifically? A few others fave mentioned this but I can never seem to get a clear response on it.
    My game uses a pretty basic itemization UI: 25 inventory slots, 5 equipment slots, 4 skill gem slots. You can right click to equip, left click and drag, etc. Is there something intrinsic I'm missing that is unnoticeable at a glance but makes an under the hood difference?


    Ui influences how people gear by giving them information about how their item choices affect their damage output, defensive stats etc. In diablo3 its generally very clear which items make your build more effective, because calculations like DPS are done for you and displayed so that you can make the best decision for your character.
  • #95
    I think the similarities between the game are uncanny but in the process of trying to make a sequel without making the same game twice they shit the bed. A lot of the stats are arbitrary in both games, but I do feel that they put too much importance on the items themselves in Diablo 3. Itemization was better in Diablo 2 not in the fact that the items were so much more cleverly designed, although they were, but mostly because the characters themselves had intrinsic value. What I mean by this, and we've all seen this argument a hundred times, is that the characters just had more inherent *oomph*, they could get through the game more fluidly because of what the character had to contribute to the equation of damage and EHP.

    One other thing, is that items had a very consistent value across the online experience. For example, if you were to find a Vampire Gaze, or a Windforce, or Shako, Oculus, etc, you were basically always guaranteed a certain amount. I never had any problems trading online in that game, never had any problems with dupes, except Ith weapons which disappeared on 1.1 patch day, but thats a different story. I handled thousands of SOJ's myself, and my brother easily handled thousands himself, never had one disappear. Ever. Even when highrune currency came into play, the economy was very consistent, the items you found were predictable which led to a predictable market. That was really important for my experience. There wasn't such a large perpetual deflation problem.

    I think that having the players do a little work is intriguing and creates this mentality of ownership and commitment. In Diablo 3 so much of the work is done for you that, I believe, turns a lot of people off. DPS, Toughness, all that, it's just too transparent if such a thing existed. That's just my thoughts.
  • #96
    Versatility.

    -There were character builds where skillset was not even a second thought, but gear made the character.

    -The items made the estabilished skill-trees creatively branch-off; I.E.: "I wonder if this could work with a hand-to-hand combat sorc because of these attributes..."

    -The items were so varied; All the attributes could be skill bonus for outside the given class, but in a generally accepted class item..." Barbs could use a wand to cast something...or a flail or whatever...

    -To asscribe to the above...prefixes and affixes worked in a more versitile way. Classes regularly interchanged items and even rarer builds could be affected by itemization of a more straight-forward build path.
  • #97


    D3 itemization is just criminally bad. Something like this shouldn't exist in 2013, and especially not by a company such as Blizzard. I'll just be short and mention the very nice fact that ALL CLASSES FUCKING WANT the exact same items, with only the primary stat varying. Head slot = only Mempo. Bracer = only Lacuni. Shoulder = only Vile Ward. Belt = only Witching Hour. Boots = only Ice Climbers. 2h weapon = only Skorn. 1h weapon = only echoing fury.


    Many WDs use Zuni's helm over Mempo. Many Monks use Inna's helm over Mempo.

    Many WDs use crafted bracers over Lacunis.

    Crafted shoulders are a complete alternative to Vile Wards for all classes.

    Many Wizards and WDs use Zuni's boots over Ice Climbers. Many Monks and DHs use Nat's boots.

    Echoing Fury is completely inferior to most well-rolled rare weapons.

    You were saying?

    This guy was asking for what makes good itemization. If you can't give him reasonable feedback so he can make his own game, please don't talk shit for the sake of looking like an internet tough guy.


    So there are a whooping *2* choices per slot, and only if you are a specific class. My points have totally been made void by your incredible fanboism Wisdom. Wow, the depth of D3 itemization.

    D2 had at least 5 viable items in every slot. Probably more but I don't want to overstate as some people here seem to take things too literally.

    Further, I didn't take crafts into equation as I'm talking about items people buy. Basically all non-BoA bracers other than Lacuni (only well rolled) are worthless; same with shoulder, nothing except Vile Ward is worth shit/ no one wants it. But fine, even if you take into account the crafts, they only matter for the Bracer and Shoulder slots.

    Also my point was helpful to the OP I believe - bottom line is, give people CHOICE and don't tunnel them into 1-2 choices per slot because it ruins the economy and gameplay alike.
  • #98

    So there are a whooping *2* choices per slot, and only if you are a specific class. Wow, the depth of D3 itemization. D2 had at least 5 viable items in every slot. Probably more but I don't want to overstate as some people here seem to take things too literally.


    Totally. Like for chest, right? What were the top 5 chests in D2 again? (Good luck trying to find 5 different ways to write Enigma.)


    But fine, even if you take into account the crafts, they only matter for the Bracer and Shoulder slots.


    And amulets and gloves.
  • #99

    Totally. Like for chest, right? What were the top 5 chests in D2 again? (Good luck trying to find 5 different ways to write Enigma.)


    Enigma, Skin of the Vipermagi, Fortitude, Chains of Honor, Tyrael's Might

    You won't see a lot of sorcs wearing Enigma, Skin of the Vipermagi is a much better choice next to Chains of Honor... there are also a lot barbs preferring Fortitude for the damage, which is btw the default choice for Amazons and Shapeshift Druids.

    Also I knew people who preferred Tyrael's Might over Enigma for PvE because of the Bonus dmg vs demons and the rest of the stats are pretty good anyway.
  • #100


    So there are a whooping *2* choices per slot, and only if you are a specific class. Wow, the depth of D3 itemization. D2 had at least 5 viable items in every slot. Probably more but I don't want to overstate as some people here seem to take things too literally.


    Totally. Like for chest, right? What were the top 5 chests in D2 again? (Good luck trying to find 5 different ways to write Enigma.)


    But fine, even if you take into account the crafts, they only matter for the Bracer and Shoulder slots.


    And amulets and gloves.


    I didn't mention amulets and gloves as single choice item in my first post. People use Rares on this slot so they aren't tunneled into one choice.

    Viable D2 chests: Enigma, Chains of Honor, Bramble, Fortitude, Skin of the Vipermagi, Arkaine's Valor, Tyrael's Might, Tal Armor, IK armor, Shaftstop, Guardian Angel, Ormus' Robes.........................


    As you see, CHOICE. D3 is ok with regard to for example gloves and amulet - you can potentially use legendary/ set/ rare, depending on build/ rolls/ budget. But that's only Gloves, Rings and Amulet atm, the only "variable" slots of any build, where you get the missing stats from your main pieces. Diablo 2 had this in EVERY slot, and even better/ more choice.

    EDIT: Added Ormus's Robes to viable D2 chests.
  • #101


    Why are most of you saying D2 Hell difficulty could be "beaten nude" / retardedly easy etc., when that is not the case at all? I don't remember the earlier patches too well, but from v1.10 on Hell was hard, far harder than D3 Inferno mp0 is nowadays.

    NO CLASS could beat it nude, and some classes (sorc for example - or basically any that relies too much on 1 element) could not beat it at all (except by skipping a lot of mobs - and even then, some parts like Travinical Council just weren't possible without Gosu items like Infinity)

    It only became easy once you outgeared it by a huge margin, just like it is now in D3. So the fuck is up with all the talks of D2 easiness.


    Yeah, good point (though slightly derailing the thread), but I just don't get it despite people writing that in every one of these discussions. As a self-found player and someone who refrained from using duped high runes and other stuff, hell was sometimes a pain in the ass for my Blizzard sorc. But then, I'm also not a pro gamer. It could be beaten nude though, there were some groups doing that (there was even one group who did the entire game including uber events nude).




    http://diablo.incgam...e-uber-tristram

    These guys cleared all of D2, naked, hardcore, including Pandemonium and Ubers, post-1.10.

    http://diablo.incgam...11-HC-naked-zon

    There's a guy who got to 75, naked, hardcore, in 1.11, with an Amazon.

    There are tons of people who did stuff like this. These were just the first two Google results I pulled up.

    I'll stop saying D2 was easier than D3 when people start showing that they can clear all of D3 naked (they can use a weapon for obvious reasons), on hardcore. The bar was set by the D2 players who did it. The only thing that keeps me saying it is that no one in D3 is recreating those feats. The minute people start doing it in D3 you can bet your ass I'll stop using the "people beat D2 naked" argument. Until that point, it's completely valid and based in fact.

    EDIT
    Also can we please keep this on-topic? The OP isn't asking people to debate whether or not people did beat D2 naked, especially since everyone knows it was done many times, and it's been archived on many sites. He's asking about what he can do to draw from D2 (and presumably other ARPGs) to make his game better.




    Excuse me for chiming in late, I mostly lurk elsewhere these days, but spreading such things about D2 catches my attention ;)

    Both views are too drastic from my point of view. NO, you did not need BERMALBERIST to even beat the game, everything was doable with reasonable self-found gear.
    And that "naked" stuff is hilarious. That second guy used his merc with equipment to beat the game. Everyone could have such a companion and watch him kill stuff. Most people actually had them for mobs that were immune to their specific damage element. So that doesn't count as beating the game without items to me.
    The first crew, ok, they probably "abused" the fact, that skills weren't tied to weapon damage like they are in D3.

    D3 isn't abusable in such a way, because you need certain numeric dps and ehp values to beat the encounters at hand. Let's just call them gear checks. The existence of such requirements doesn't make encounter A harder than B -which might not have them- in terms of player skill. I suppose a lot of people remember Patchwerk/Brutallus from camp A and Kael'thas Sunstrider from camp B ;)
    I apologize for any formating issues in my posts, I just can't use the new editor.Currently playing Magic 2014, see my thread:http://www.diablofans.com/topic/97565-magic-2014/
    Also, if you like Classics, try:Dungeons and Dragons Anthology ( http://www.gamersgat...ster-collection )
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