Honestly, how many people would play ladder if the best items in the game were non-lad only?
^^ This needs to be addressed.
Okay, Ruksak, I'll address it right now. The very best items aren't ladder only.There you have it, its been said, and its been addressed.
Some people on this board just look for conflict. A similar group of people just like to support one anothers' idea's and theirs alone and turn anyone who opposes them into a witch hunt. I'll be frank, here, if you are incompetent enough to read the material that has been laid before you and make an intelligent conclusion to whether or not ladder only material imbalances the game or starkly reduces incentive to play non-ladder, you are looking for conflict and you refuse to ever see any point other than your own. You also do not contain the ability to discuss things objectively.
You've said incorrect things and made unpleasant insinuations. After being corrected, you change your argument. Thats how I know that when I'm specifically speaking to you or people like you, you're simply NOT worth my time. It's so typical that people feel "owed" a response or clarification. Well, if you would get your head out of your ass, you might just see an answer here or there.
If I disagree with you, that's means I just want to fight?
How very arrogant.
Have I not been mature and cordial in this discussion?
Ladder Only Items;
Griffs
Kira's
Shadow Dancers
Andy's
Tyrael's
Death Clever
Gheed's
Levi
Ladder Only Rune Words;
Spirit
Insight
Grief
Fort
Death
Last Wish
Now I didn't mean ALL the best items were lad-only. I meant many of them were. Indeed. Nobody wants to be cut out.
You're evading the meat of the matter. EVERYTHING could drop in ladder. The drop table was gimped in non-lad.
Again, would you play ladder if not everything could drop, but it non-lad, everything did drop?
Honestly, how many people would play ladder if the best items in the game were non-lad only?
^^ This needs to be addressed.
Path of Exile to the rescue! They are currently running a couple 4month leagues (in effect ladders), anarchy, which is softcore and onslaught, which is hardcore, where the best amulet and ring base type don't drop at all, as well as their corresponding uniques, a couple of which are an absolute must for many endgame builds. The most valuable unique item overall in the game (a chest with +1000hp, when the most you can get from any other chest is ~110) is also disabled in these leagues.
Instead, they do have some new ladder-only base types for rings and amulets, as well as a few uniques that correspond to the new base types, none of which comes even a little close to the value of top items. They are only 4 in total number, 2 for anarchy and 2 for onslaught.
They've yet to announce what will happen when the leagues end. Most people assume the new items will just start dropping again in the old leagues, but it's only an assumption at this point. Dead onslaught characters go to standard at once, while the leagues are active. Anarchy characters will go to standard when the leagues end and live onslaught characters will go to hardcore.
Current player ratios announced by the head admin were 9 anarchy:3 standard:3 onslaught:1 hardcore. Preselected league for new players in the game (as in, just installed the game and go create a character) is anarchy.
Sometimes other games happily provide relevant information to what would otherwise be hypotheticals
Does anyone know what those actual numbers are beyond ratios? Is it 18, 6, 6 and 3? is it 900000, 300000, 300000, and 100000? Truthfully what I think is more telling is that if people were actually interested in that sort of game play (ladder resets, race, rerolling, etc) then PoE would be a much, much, much more popular game.
That involves brand name, budget size, know-how, marketing and a whole lot of other stuff not really relevant to what ruksak was asking. The PoE demographic is people who liked Diablo2 and like aRPGs in general. If you want to ignore a relevant dataset from this group that directly answers the core question being asked, go ahead. I don't think it's very wise though.
I do remember reading a PoE dev saying that unique logins are in the tens of thousands per day value, for whatever that's worth.
It is not like PoE is this super-inidie game that no one has ever heard of. With that begin said the numbers are very relevant, because you're talking about a subset of people that are interested and want that type of game play, so it is far from a non-biased sample size.
Let's not for get that it was being spammed all over Diablo forums, including the official forums. It also had popular streamers (Kripparrian) promoting the Hell out of the game for a long, long, long time via Twitch, YouTube, etc. The game has had its chance to catch on to a wider audience and it just seems that those interested in PoE vs. Diablo 3 are two different crowds.
I agree with TheSeanis. He brings valid points to the table. I suggest that everyone read his posts again before making any false accusations and if you still feel like he's wrong, read them again and again.
People keep saying they'd be forced into playing ladder. No one would force you into doing anything. Chances are you won't even get to see those ladder-only legendaries regardless of your time spent farming. Also, and this is of critical importance, after the 1st season, a lot of those ladder only items would be brought into the economy, a very good point made by TheSeanis, something which i overlooked completely.
Personally, if the ladder had nothing new to bring to the table, i really don't know if i would play it. Maybe if i "beat" the game and started to get bored and wanted to change things a bit.
This is not a valid line of logic. Just because I may not ever see it drop does not mean I shouldn't have a chance to see it drop. Also consider the inverse of that. Chances are you will never see it drop in ladder-only, so therefore why does it need to drop in ladder-only?
We don't seem to share the same topic. I am trying to reach a sweet spot where ladders are Not required for you to enjoy the game, but can still have a reason for you to play them whereas you keep going on and on about ladder only loot and you don't even have a good argument against them being there, whilst i have given you reasons for them to BE there.
Yeah the sweet spot is, no items specific to any mode of play. Done.
Well, one guy asks a hypothetical and gets a real dataset directly relating to his question from a close as possible demographic. However the dataset disagrees with his assertions so he just goes 'fuck the dataset, I'll stick to my guns'.
The other guy also decides to ignore the dataset and stick to his guns because he formulates his own theory, based on nothing much at all as far as I can tell (really, you're telling me a small company with a budget of a few million can compete with Blizzard's and Diablo's brand name/PR? and that 'people who liked D2 and like aRPGs' aren't a relevant demographic to answer questions about what would happen if things were different in Diablo3? just because they have tens of thousands instead of hundreds of thousands playing daily? is this real life?).
Right. I posted about narrowmindedness in the previous pages, happily other people read these threads as well, even Blizzard people. Still don't think a ladder will happen for Diablo3 (nor do I really want one), but if it does, they'll hopefully not offhandedly discount feedback like you seem to be.
What are you talking about? PoE had its chance to capitalize on what would be considered a lackluster launch a first months/year of Diablo's launch. At that point in time it was being spammed all over Diablo forums (including the official one) where people went to try the game for a while (may I add it is FREE so there are zero barriers to entry). A lot of people, including myself, tried the game for a while and decided it wasn't what they were looking for in the game and moved on.
Your data set is flawed because the game is built for the crowd of ARPG lovers that enjoy ladders and rerolling. If you actually want more reliable statistics you will want a much wider sample size and a lot more random. In the end it would be better to know what statistics you are providing and understand what situations they are better used in rather than blanketly insulting people and calling them narrow minded because they disagree with what you posted.
Right. I posted about narrowmindedness in the previous pages, happily other people read these threads as well, even Blizzard people. Still don't think a ladder will happen for Diablo3 (nor do I really want one), but if it does, they'll hopefully not offhandedly discount feedback like you seem to be.
And hopefully Blizzard doesn't throw shit into D3 just because it seems to be working in a different game.
Your "it is popular in PoE" train of thought, while accurate, doesn't matter worth a damn. PoE players are clearly different from D3 players. The games are not similar at all at this point. They are both ARPGs but that's about all.
What you're saying, essentially, is "Batman and Superman are both superheros therefore, since Superman can fly then Batman's creators should make him fly because, among Superman comic book readers 97% of them love his ability to fly!"
Maybe, just maybe, people enjoy Batman for what he is and others enjoy Superman for what he is and it's a GOOD thing for comic books that they are two, distinct, personalities. If you really like Superman, well, no one is standing behind you in the comic book store with a gun to your head forcing you to buy Batman comics.
We do have freedom of choice afterall, and if anyone on these forums finds that PoE better suits their gaming needs.... well there's no harm in acting on that. But when you try to use the "PoE fans love things that are in PoE" as logic as to why D3 should make certain changes and think that is immutable data that's not up for scrutiny.....
In statistics, sampling bias is a bias in which a sample is collected in such a way that some members of the intended population are less likely to be included than others. It results in a biased sample, a non-random sample[1] of a population (or non-human factors) in which all individuals, or instances, were not equally likely to have been selected.[2] If this is not accounted for, results can be erroneously attributed to the phenomenon under study rather than to the method of sampling.
If you sample ONLY PoE players and then attempt to use that to represent all ARPG fans, you have, in fact, a sampling bias. You don't have a sample that's representative of all ARPG fans. You don't have a sample that's representative of D3 fans. You have a sample that is ONLY representative of PoE fans.
To assert that PoE players and D3 players want the exact same things in a game is just completely erroneous logic. It doesn't take a Ph.D. to understand how polling and sampling works and that using data only gathered from PoE is a horrible idea when trying to prove what D3 players might want.
If you were as "objective" as you claim to be you wouldn't be defending data with clear statistical problems.
Right. I posted about narrowmindedness in the previous pages, happily other people read these threads as well, even Blizzard people. Still don't think a ladder will happen for Diablo3 (nor do I really want one), but if it does, they'll hopefully not offhandedly discount feedback like you seem to be.
And hopefully Blizzard doesn't throw shit into D3 just because it seems to be working in a different game.
Your "it is popular in PoE" train of thought, while accurate, doesn't matter worth a damn. PoE players are clearly different from D3 players. The games are not similar at all at this point. They are both ARPGs but that's about all.
What you're saying, essentially, is "Batman and Superman are both superheros therefore, since Superman can fly then Batman's creators should make him fly because, among Superman comic book readers 97% of them love his ability to fly!"
Maybe, just maybe, people enjoy Batman for what he is and others enjoy Superman for what he is and it's a GOOD thing for comic books that they are two, distinct, personalities. If you really like Superman, well, no one is standing behind you in the comic book store with a gun to your head forcing you to buy Batman comics.
We do have freedom of choice afterall, and if anyone on these forums finds that PoE better suits their gaming needs.... well there's no harm in acting on that. But when you try to use the "PoE fans love things that are in PoE" as logic as to why D3 should make certain changes and think that is immutable data that's not up for scrutiny.....
Well that's when you lose me.
Except your analogy is incorrect. That would be correct if we weren't speaking of 2 arpgs with pretty much the same concepts: kill monsters to get loot. I agree that 1 arpg doing something does not mean the other HAS to do it. We, however, have to be objective, put our feelings aside and see what's best for the game. None of you managed to bring any argument against ladder only items/ events/ cosmetic rewards other than saying they shouldn't be there whilst i believe that they would serve a very good purpose: incentivize people into playing ladder, knowing full well that they'll lose all their progress eventually and have to start from scratch.
You have to be joking if you consider PoE and D3 to be the same concepts. Outside of being in the ARPG genre and having loot they are two completely different games.
Why don't you come up with specific reasons so people can actually have a discussion about the topic instead of ambiguous, non-descriptive ideas like incentivize which stand to do nothing but flame bait / troll on the topic. Everybody needs incentives to play this game, why is it that one play style deserves different incentives than another?
Right. I posted about narrowmindedness in the previous pages, happily other people read these threads as well, even Blizzard people. Still don't think a ladder will happen for Diablo3 (nor do I really want one), but if it does, they'll hopefully not offhandedly discount feedback like you seem to be.
And hopefully Blizzard doesn't throw shit into D3 just because it seems to be working in a different game.
Your "it is popular in PoE" train of thought, while accurate, doesn't matter worth a damn. PoE players are clearly different from D3 players. The games are not similar at all at this point. They are both ARPGs but that's about all.
What you're saying, essentially, is "Batman and Superman are both superheros therefore, since Superman can fly then Batman's creators should make him fly because, among Superman comic book readers 97% of them love his ability to fly!"
Maybe, just maybe, people enjoy Batman for what he is and others enjoy Superman for what he is and it's a GOOD thing for comic books that they are two, distinct, personalities. If you really like Superman, well, no one is standing behind you in the comic book store with a gun to your head forcing you to buy Batman comics.
We do have freedom of choice afterall, and if anyone on these forums finds that PoE better suits their gaming needs.... well there's no harm in acting on that. But when you try to use the "PoE fans love things that are in PoE" as logic as to why D3 should make certain changes and think that is immutable data that's not up for scrutiny.....
Well that's when you lose me.
Except your analogy is incorrect. That would be correct if we weren't speaking of 2 arpgs with pretty much the same concepts: kill monsters to get loot. I agree that 1 arpg doing something does not mean the other HAS to do it. We, however, have to be objective, put our feelings aside and see what's best for the game. None of you managed to bring any argument against ladder only items/ events/ cosmetic rewards other than saying they shouldn't be there whilst i believe that they would serve a very good purpose: incentivize people into playing ladder, knowing full well that they'll lose all their progress eventually and have to start from scratch.
You have to be joking if you consider PoE and D3 to be the same concepts. Outside of being in the ARPG genre and having loot they are two completely different games.
Why don't you come up with specific reasons so people can actually have a discussion about the topic instead of ambiguous, non-descriptive ideas like incentivize which stand to do nothing but flame bait / troll on the topic. Everybody needs incentives to play this game, why is it that one play style deserves different incentives than another?
"You have to be joking if you consider PoE and D3 to be the same concepts. Outside of being in the ARPG genre and having loot they are two completely different games."
You just contradicted yourself there.
"Why don't you come up with specific reasons so people can actually have a discussion about the topic instead of ambiguous, non-descriptive ideas like incentivize which stand to do nothing but flame bait / troll on the topic. Everybody needs incentives to play this game, why is it that one play style deserves different incentives than another?"
Because the ladder resets itself every 4-8 months and you lose all progress.
Alright you're clearly trolling and/or flame baiting looking for a reaction (bold comment). I have better things to do good day.
Honestly, how many people would play ladder if the best items in the game were non-lad only?
^^ This needs to be addressed.
Okay, Ruksak, I'll address it right now. The very best items aren't ladder only.There you have it, its been said, and its been addressed.
Some people on this board just look for conflict. A similar group of people just like to support one anothers' idea's and theirs alone and turn anyone who opposes them into a witch hunt. I'll be frank, here, if you are incompetent enough to read the material that has been laid before you and make an intelligent conclusion to whether or not ladder only material imbalances the game or starkly reduces incentive to play non-ladder, you are looking for conflict and you refuse to ever see any point other than your own. You also do not contain the ability to discuss things objectively.
You've said incorrect things and made unpleasant insinuations. After being corrected, you change your argument. Thats how I know that when I'm specifically speaking to you or people like you, you're simply NOT worth my time. It's so typical that people feel "owed" a response or clarification. Well, if you would get your head out of your ass, you might just see an answer here or there.
If I disagree with you, that's means I just want to fight?
How very arrogant.
Have I not been mature and cordial in this discussion?
Ladder Only Items;
Griffs
Kira's
Shadow Dancers
Andy's
Tyrael's
Death Clever
Gheed's
Levi
Ladder Only Rune Words;
Spirit
Insight
Grief
Fort
Death
Last Wish
Now I didn't mean ALL the best items were lad-only. I meant many of them were. Indeed. Nobody wants to be cut out.
You're evading the meat of the matter. EVERYTHING could drop in ladder. The drop table was gimped in non-lad.
Again, would you play ladder if not everything could drop, but it non-lad, everything did drop?
I have already stated that I played both ladder& non-ladder, as well as hardcore game modes across the entire span of me playing diablo 2, including as recently as recently as this year. For the layman, that means I specifically excluded ladder material when playing non-ladder. As I've stated before, I don't care if ladder only material is present or not. If you aren't able to read beyond those words it means YES I would play ladder EVEN if there weren't items ONLY for ladder. How many ways do people need to reword the same sentences for you people?
As for the items you've posted from Diablo 2 ladder, you could have listed some of the Non-exclusive items as well. As for runewords, there are 55 that don't require you to be in Ladder to create. As for uniques, you've left out Great ones such as Buriza, Windforce, Grandfather, Doombringer, wizarspike, shako, Vampire Gaze, Arreats Face, Shaftstop, Demon Arc, Thundergods Vigor, Arachnid Mesh, I mean really, come on, Do I really need to list every better item that anyone can get? It's obvious at this point, the best gear is available to all players. But the real trump card, is that all the "Ladder only" stuff is all over non-ladder trading, where you have a much more REALISTIC chance of acquiring the said gear.
Well, one guy asks a hypothetical and gets a real dataset directly relating to his question from a close as possible demographic. However the dataset disagrees with his assertions so he just goes 'fuck the dataset, I'll stick to my guns'.
The other guy also decides to ignore the dataset and stick to his guns because he formulates his own theory, based on nothing much at all as far as I can tell (really, you're telling me a small company with a budget of a few million can compete with Blizzard's and Diablo's brand name/PR? and that 'people who liked D2 and like aRPGs' aren't a relevant demographic to answer questions about what would happen if things were different in Diablo3? just because they have tens of thousands instead of hundreds of thousands playing daily? is this real life?).
Right. I posted about narrowmindedness in the previous pages, happily other people read these threads as well, even Blizzard people. Still don't think a ladder will happen for Diablo3 (nor do I really want one), but if it does, they'll hopefully not offhandedly discount feedback like you seem to be.
What are you talking about? PoE had its chance to capitalize on what would be considered a lackluster launch a first months/year of Diablo's launch. At that point in time it was being spammed all over Diablo forums (including the official one) where people went to try the game for a while (may I add it is FREE so there are zero barriers to entry). A lot of people, including myself, tried the game for a while and decided it wasn't what they were looking for in the game and moved on.
Your data set is flawed because the game is built for the crowd of ARPG lovers that enjoy ladders and rerolling. If you actually want more reliable statistics you will want a much wider sample size and a lot more random. In the end it would be better to know what statistics you are providing and understand what situations they are better used in rather than blanketly insulting people and calling them narrow minded because they disagree with what you posted.
Well, one guy asks a hypothetical and gets a real dataset directly relating to his question from a close as possible demographic. However the dataset disagrees with his assertions so he just goes 'fuck the dataset, I'll stick to my guns'.
The other guy also decides to ignore the dataset and stick to his guns because he formulates his own theory, based on nothing much at all as far as I can tell (really, you're telling me a small company with a budget of a few million can compete with Blizzard's and Diablo's brand name/PR? and that 'people who liked D2 and like aRPGs' aren't a relevant demographic to answer questions about what would happen if things were different in Diablo3? just because they have tens of thousands instead of hundreds of thousands playing daily? is this real life?).
Right. I posted about narrowmindedness in the previous pages, happily other people read these threads as well, even Blizzard people. Still don't think a ladder will happen for Diablo3 (nor do I really want one), but if it does, they'll hopefully not offhandedly discount feedback like you seem to be.
What are you talking about? PoE had its chance to capitalize on what would be considered a lackluster launch a first months/year of Diablo's launch. At that point in time it was being spammed all over Diablo forums (including the official one) where people went to try the game for a while (may I add it is FREE so there are zero barriers to entry). A lot of people, including myself, tried the game for a while and decided it wasn't what they were looking for in the game and moved on.
Your data set is flawed because the game is built for the crowd of ARPG lovers that enjoy ladders and rerolling. If you actually want more reliable statistics you will want a much wider sample size and a lot more random. In the end it would be better to know what statistics you are providing and understand what situations they are better used in rather than blanketly insulting people and calling them narrow minded because they disagree with what you posted.
The hypothetical question was 'what would happen if ladder didn't have the best loot around and standard did'. The assumed answer was that of course everyone would just play standard, therefore ladders aren't any good, people are just strongarmed into playing them because of all the shinies.
It just so happens that there is an aRPG around, core ideas taken from Diablo2, with a community that loves the genre, that has showcased that this is not so.
This community numbers in the tens of thousands, which is perfectly reasonable considering they're new developers with very little resources in their hands, especially compared to a giant like Blizzard. Hell, when they started open beta, they had to install more capacity for their servers because they couldn't handle 60k concurrent players. Diablo had millions at launch. You somehow turn that into 'well just disregard this sample because they didn't immediately become as big as Blizzard'. Your truly biased sample, the absolutely not casuals who are drawn to competition is playing 'races' in that game, not the regular modes. And they are a very small part of the total game population. You can go look how many participate in the race events.
I mean... I'm not even arguing for ladder for crying out loud. I don't think it'd work for Diablo3 as it is now. You guys are just going out of your way to make damn sure that if some content was added, people who asked for it won't get the full experience. And I call this being a lootwhore, I don't know how else to call it, sorry. And you're trying to justify this with all these nonsensical arguments about how PoE and Diablo and their respective communities have nothing to do with one another, when they're as different in concept as WoW was from any WoWkiller that came along the past 8 years.
Stop with the hyperbole, jeez. My points isn't that the game isn't as large as D3, it is that if that is the type of game people wanted in general the population would be on a steady increase instead of remaining stagnant or decreasing (which if they were going up you can be sure GGG would be bragging about). It's not saying the game is bad, horrible has the worst ideas ever or anything other than maybe their game is targeted to a niche market or group of people and that those ideas are probably best suited towards those groups of individuals and it is no surprise that these people are enjoying what PoE has to offer. It doesn't mean using statistics from PoE are going to be relevant or wanted for a game which has vastly different core fundamentals. For that, you'd have to have a completely different poll.
So, let me get this straight. Those of us that are proposing that everyone has equal access to all content regardless of play style are the loot whores, but those that are saying that the ladder should have ladder-only items are not? What fucking bizzaro planet am I living on right now?
I would much rather have more things to do with my current gear than having to re-grind all my gear.
I think eventually you'll reach a point where your gear is just too good and you'd have nothing to do, even though i stand with you on that matter. I would love to get more and more content every few months and help keep things fresh. But i strongly doubt that's going to happen. A ladder is within the realm of possibility and it also would help keep things from going stale. However, because you would have to start from scratch, i think it needs some incentive.
Not going to happen because the last XPAC would have come out long before that could have happened. Once the last XPAC comes out and the game start losing more and more players over time, they could consider implementing it for people wishing to play the game longer. Until the game reaches that point, a "Diablo 2" ladder is unneeded and potentially dangerous.
I would much rather have more things to do with my current gear than having to re-grind all my gear.
I think eventually you'll reach a point where your gear is just too good and you'd have nothing to do, even though i stand with you on that matter. I would love to get more and more content every few months and help keep things fresh. But i strongly doubt that's going to happen. A ladder is within the realm of possibility and it also would help keep things from going stale. However, because you would have to start from scratch, i think it needs some incentive.
Not going to happen because the last XPAC would have come out long before that could have happened. Once the last XPAC comes out and the game start losing more and more players over time, they could consider implementing it for people wishing to play the game longer. Until the game reaches that point, a "Diablo 2" ladder is unneeded and potentially dangerous.
Why do you believe it is unneeded? By the time RoS comes out we will have spent roughly 2 years on D3 vanilla. The game is anything but fresh right now let alone 8months from now, maybe more. 4 to 8 months ladders are essential to keep things fresh and interesting.
Here's what we are going to get:
=> Loot 2.0 pre-XPAC (soft item sink)
=> Paragon 2.0 Pre-XPAC
=> Nephalem Trials (I think) and Loot runs Pre-XPAC
=> Loot 2.0 Post-XPAC (Hard item sink)
=> More content
=> Our current "GG" items are just average gear. We need to re-farm new gear.
By the time we play RoS, we would have had 2 wave of loots (pre and post XPAC). Our current gear wouldn't be good enough for the new difficulty (at least, we wouldn't be able to do it efficiency for most of us).
=> Inferno will be "challenging" because we will need ilvl70 items (we use ilvl63).
There are plenty of give and take compromises that you might find if you were really interested in fairness and a grand ol' time for everyone, but it seems to me that this is not the case here. Hence the 'lootwhore'.
It's not really fair to accuse anyone of being a lootwhore because they have the "upper hand." You, yourself, pointed out that D3s contemporary, PoE, doesn't give anything close to BiS items for ladder play. TheSeanis is arguing that D2 didn't give BiS items for ladder play. Vhlad is the only person here who seems to think ladder play MUST reward BiS items, and he's gone so far to say they should be BoA too.
How is that not a "me-first" mentality?
How is it selfish to say "I don't want a system where I'm forced to use the AH, or play self found, or play hardcore, or play ladder?" How is it selfish to want to play the way you enjoy without having Blizzard socially engineer you into one style or the other? How is that being a "lootwhore?" How is it selfish to want EQUITY between modes of gameplay instead of inherent inequity which causes people to feel like they have to play the AH, or play ladder to get items?
Given the blowback from the AH it should be more than obvious that the last thing this game needs is another "this is the only way to get certain items" mode of play. That's not selfish, that's the reality in the wake of suffering through that for a year with the AH and seeing what it was like when there was a "right" and "wrong" way to play the game.
The obvious solution is the same as hardcore. Achievements & cosmetic rewards for ladder seasons - this would directly parallel how they handle arena seasons in WoW which are rewarded with Feats of Strength and mounts. However, in WoW, for participating in an arena season you are not awarded with BiS PvE loot. If you were you'd see the same kind of push-back that you see here when people start demanding ladder-only loot.
The problem is that no one wants to commit to that VERY REASONABLE conclusion. You get something UNIQUE for participating in ladder play, but you don't get any kind of PvM or PvP advantage via exclusive loot. It's fair to everyone involved. Why is that so difficult? I've yet to see any WoW arena teams complain that they're not getting BiS loot. I've yet to see any D3 hardcore players complain that they're not being awarded amazing items. It seems to be a very reasonable solution.
So, let me get this straight. Those of us that are proposing that everyone has equal access to all content regardless of play style are the loot whores, but those that are saying that the ladder should have ladder-only items are not? What fucking bizzaro planet am I living on right now?
Read my posts again. The other guys are lootwhores too.
You just happen to be in a position to deny their wants, instead of them being in a position to deny your wants (as would have been the case if a ladder was established as Diablo3 fact from the get-go). No bizzaro planet here, only good old me-first mentality, with you currently having the upper hand. That's all there's to it.
There are plenty of give and take compromises that you might find if you were really interested in fairness and a grand ol' time for everyone, but it seems to me that this is not the case here. Hence the 'lootwhore'.
Not sure how compromising and saying the ladder system is okay so long as it doesn't alienate play styles is being a loot whore.
If people really wanted to be anal they'd say a ladder system is not necessary and Blizzard should be devoting their resources to keeping "end-game" fresh and fuck you to the people that want a ladder system. To each his own I suppose.
I have already stated that I played both ladder& non-ladder, as well as hardcore game modes across the entire span of me playing diablo 2, including as recently as recently as this year. For the layman, that means I specifically excluded ladder material when playing non-ladder. As I've stated before, I don't care if ladder only material is present or not. If you aren't able to read beyond those words it means YES I would play ladder EVEN if there weren't items ONLY for ladder. How many ways do people need to reword the same sentences for you people?
Ya know, I've been real nice and have just been having a discussion with you. But you keep insulting and going off like a jerk. Because you cannot be civil, I'm going to assume you cannot be honest as well.
Please stop arguing obtuse points.
You think it's obtuse for me to argue that people whom do not want to play ladder deserve to play with the same loot table that ladder play has?
YES I would play ladder EVEN if there weren't items ONLY for ladder.
Then go play ladder. There's your incentive. You heard him, everyone. No need for ladder only items. I guess we're done here, aye?
PS: Would you people learn how to post-format and knock it off with the quote trains?
I have already stated that I played both ladder& non-ladder, as well as hardcore game modes across the entire span of me playing diablo 2, including as recently as recently as this year. For the layman, that means I specifically excluded ladder material when playing non-ladder. As I've stated before, I don't care if ladder only material is present or not. If you aren't able to read beyond those words it means YES I would play ladder EVEN if there weren't items ONLY for ladder. How many ways do people need to reword the same sentences for you people?
Ya know, I've been real nice and have just been having a discussion with you. But you keep insulting and going off like a jerk. Because you cannot be civil, I'm going to assume you cannot be honest as well.
Please stop arguing obtuse points.
You think it's obtuse for me to argue that people whom do not want to play ladder deserve to play with the same loot table that ladder play has?
YES I would play ladder EVEN if there weren't items ONLY for ladder.
Then go play ladder. There's your incentive. You heard him, everyone. No need for ladder only items. I guess we're done here, aye?
PS: Would you people learn how to post-format and knock it off with the quote trains?
Just because ladder in itself is an incentive to play ladder doesn't mean people can't be afforded more incentives to play ladder, Ruksak. Not to mention, just because I say that I am for ladder with or without the ladder only material doesn't mean that it justifies ladder NOT having that stuff. I mean really, you say you're being civil, yet, every time I come across you're posts you sound like a petulant twelve year old, egging people on like a troll.
Just because ladder in itself is an incentive to play ladder doesn't mean people can't be afforded more incentives to play ladder, Ruksak. Not to mention, just because I say that I am for ladder with or without the ladder only material doesn't mean that it justifies ladder NOT having that stuff. I mean really, you say you're being civil, yet, every time I come across you're posts you sound like a petulant twelve year old, egging people on like a troll.
If you can't handle a debate, do not engage. So sick of some of you wanting to start shit but you can't finish it. You want to call me childish but I'm not the one flinging insults to make a point about a god damn video game.
If you can't handle a discussion without the insults, name calling and back-handed comments, just quit. Walk away.
I asked you if you would play ladder if it didn't have special ladder-only items. You said "yes". As far as I'm concerned, that's all I wanted to hear.
-
View User Profile
-
View Posts
-
Send Message
Wise ElderIf I disagree with you, that's means I just want to fight?
How very arrogant.
Have I not been mature and cordial in this discussion?
Ladder Only Items;
Griffs
Kira's
Shadow Dancers
Andy's
Tyrael's
Death Clever
Gheed's
Levi
Ladder Only Rune Words;
Spirit
Insight
Grief
Fort
Death
Last Wish
Now I didn't mean ALL the best items were lad-only. I meant many of them were. Indeed. Nobody wants to be cut out.
You're evading the meat of the matter. EVERYTHING could drop in ladder. The drop table was gimped in non-lad.
Again, would you play ladder if not everything could drop, but it non-lad, everything did drop?
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC)
Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan
-
View User Profile
-
View Posts
-
Send Message
Wise ElderPoE can go fuck itself
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC)
Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan
It is not like PoE is this super-inidie game that no one has ever heard of. With that begin said the numbers are very relevant, because you're talking about a subset of people that are interested and want that type of game play, so it is far from a non-biased sample size.
Let's not for get that it was being spammed all over Diablo forums, including the official forums. It also had popular streamers (Kripparrian) promoting the Hell out of the game for a long, long, long time via Twitch, YouTube, etc. The game has had its chance to catch on to a wider audience and it just seems that those interested in PoE vs. Diablo 3 are two different crowds.
Yeah the sweet spot is, no items specific to any mode of play. Done.
What are you talking about? PoE had its chance to capitalize on what would be considered a lackluster launch a first months/year of Diablo's launch. At that point in time it was being spammed all over Diablo forums (including the official one) where people went to try the game for a while (may I add it is FREE so there are zero barriers to entry). A lot of people, including myself, tried the game for a while and decided it wasn't what they were looking for in the game and moved on.
Your data set is flawed because the game is built for the crowd of ARPG lovers that enjoy ladders and rerolling. If you actually want more reliable statistics you will want a much wider sample size and a lot more random. In the end it would be better to know what statistics you are providing and understand what situations they are better used in rather than blanketly insulting people and calling them narrow minded because they disagree with what you posted.
And hopefully Blizzard doesn't throw shit into D3 just because it seems to be working in a different game.
Your "it is popular in PoE" train of thought, while accurate, doesn't matter worth a damn. PoE players are clearly different from D3 players. The games are not similar at all at this point. They are both ARPGs but that's about all.
What you're saying, essentially, is "Batman and Superman are both superheros therefore, since Superman can fly then Batman's creators should make him fly because, among Superman comic book readers 97% of them love his ability to fly!"
Maybe, just maybe, people enjoy Batman for what he is and others enjoy Superman for what he is and it's a GOOD thing for comic books that they are two, distinct, personalities. If you really like Superman, well, no one is standing behind you in the comic book store with a gun to your head forcing you to buy Batman comics.
We do have freedom of choice afterall, and if anyone on these forums finds that PoE better suits their gaming needs.... well there's no harm in acting on that. But when you try to use the "PoE fans love things that are in PoE" as logic as to why D3 should make certain changes and think that is immutable data that's not up for scrutiny.....
Well that's when you lose me.
You should take a bit of your own advice there, broski. You are not "objective" at all. You're not even close to it.
http://en.wikipedia....iki/Sample_bias
You should read that and understand it.
If you sample ONLY PoE players and then attempt to use that to represent all ARPG fans, you have, in fact, a sampling bias. You don't have a sample that's representative of all ARPG fans. You don't have a sample that's representative of D3 fans. You have a sample that is ONLY representative of PoE fans.
To assert that PoE players and D3 players want the exact same things in a game is just completely erroneous logic. It doesn't take a Ph.D. to understand how polling and sampling works and that using data only gathered from PoE is a horrible idea when trying to prove what D3 players might want.
If you were as "objective" as you claim to be you wouldn't be defending data with clear statistical problems.
You have to be joking if you consider PoE and D3 to be the same concepts. Outside of being in the ARPG genre and having loot they are two completely different games.
Why don't you come up with specific reasons so people can actually have a discussion about the topic instead of ambiguous, non-descriptive ideas like incentivize which stand to do nothing but flame bait / troll on the topic. Everybody needs incentives to play this game, why is it that one play style deserves different incentives than another?
Alright you're clearly trolling and/or flame baiting looking for a reaction (bold comment). I have better things to do good day.
I have already stated that I played both ladder& non-ladder, as well as hardcore game modes across the entire span of me playing diablo 2, including as recently as recently as this year. For the layman, that means I specifically excluded ladder material when playing non-ladder. As I've stated before, I don't care if ladder only material is present or not. If you aren't able to read beyond those words it means YES I would play ladder EVEN if there weren't items ONLY for ladder. How many ways do people need to reword the same sentences for you people?
As for the items you've posted from Diablo 2 ladder, you could have listed some of the Non-exclusive items as well. As for runewords, there are 55 that don't require you to be in Ladder to create. As for uniques, you've left out Great ones such as Buriza, Windforce, Grandfather, Doombringer, wizarspike, shako, Vampire Gaze, Arreats Face, Shaftstop, Demon Arc, Thundergods Vigor, Arachnid Mesh, I mean really, come on, Do I really need to list every better item that anyone can get? It's obvious at this point, the best gear is available to all players. But the real trump card, is that all the "Ladder only" stuff is all over non-ladder trading, where you have a much more REALISTIC chance of acquiring the said gear.
Please stop arguing obtuse points.
Stop with the hyperbole, jeez. My points isn't that the game isn't as large as D3, it is that if that is the type of game people wanted in general the population would be on a steady increase instead of remaining stagnant or decreasing (which if they were going up you can be sure GGG would be bragging about). It's not saying the game is bad, horrible has the worst ideas ever or anything other than maybe their game is targeted to a niche market or group of people and that those ideas are probably best suited towards those groups of individuals and it is no surprise that these people are enjoying what PoE has to offer. It doesn't mean using statistics from PoE are going to be relevant or wanted for a game which has vastly different core fundamentals. For that, you'd have to have a completely different poll.
So, let me get this straight. Those of us that are proposing that everyone has equal access to all content regardless of play style are the loot whores, but those that are saying that the ladder should have ladder-only items are not? What fucking bizzaro planet am I living on right now?
Not going to happen because the last XPAC would have come out long before that could have happened. Once the last XPAC comes out and the game start losing more and more players over time, they could consider implementing it for people wishing to play the game longer. Until the game reaches that point, a "Diablo 2" ladder is unneeded and potentially dangerous.
Here's what we are going to get:
=> Loot 2.0 pre-XPAC (soft item sink)
=> Paragon 2.0 Pre-XPAC
=> Nephalem Trials (I think) and Loot runs Pre-XPAC
=> Loot 2.0 Post-XPAC (Hard item sink)
=> More content
=> Our current "GG" items are just average gear. We need to re-farm new gear.
By the time we play RoS, we would have had 2 wave of loots (pre and post XPAC). Our current gear wouldn't be good enough for the new difficulty (at least, we wouldn't be able to do it efficiency for most of us).
=> Inferno will be "challenging" because we will need ilvl70 items (we use ilvl63).
(Edit: Changed "Item to Time" >_<
It's not really fair to accuse anyone of being a lootwhore because they have the "upper hand." You, yourself, pointed out that D3s contemporary, PoE, doesn't give anything close to BiS items for ladder play. TheSeanis is arguing that D2 didn't give BiS items for ladder play. Vhlad is the only person here who seems to think ladder play MUST reward BiS items, and he's gone so far to say they should be BoA too.
How is that not a "me-first" mentality?
How is it selfish to say "I don't want a system where I'm forced to use the AH, or play self found, or play hardcore, or play ladder?" How is it selfish to want to play the way you enjoy without having Blizzard socially engineer you into one style or the other? How is that being a "lootwhore?" How is it selfish to want EQUITY between modes of gameplay instead of inherent inequity which causes people to feel like they have to play the AH, or play ladder to get items?
Given the blowback from the AH it should be more than obvious that the last thing this game needs is another "this is the only way to get certain items" mode of play. That's not selfish, that's the reality in the wake of suffering through that for a year with the AH and seeing what it was like when there was a "right" and "wrong" way to play the game.
The obvious solution is the same as hardcore. Achievements & cosmetic rewards for ladder seasons - this would directly parallel how they handle arena seasons in WoW which are rewarded with Feats of Strength and mounts. However, in WoW, for participating in an arena season you are not awarded with BiS PvE loot. If you were you'd see the same kind of push-back that you see here when people start demanding ladder-only loot.
The problem is that no one wants to commit to that VERY REASONABLE conclusion. You get something UNIQUE for participating in ladder play, but you don't get any kind of PvM or PvP advantage via exclusive loot. It's fair to everyone involved. Why is that so difficult? I've yet to see any WoW arena teams complain that they're not getting BiS loot. I've yet to see any D3 hardcore players complain that they're not being awarded amazing items. It seems to be a very reasonable solution.
Not sure how compromising and saying the ladder system is okay so long as it doesn't alienate play styles is being a loot whore.
If people really wanted to be anal they'd say a ladder system is not necessary and Blizzard should be devoting their resources to keeping "end-game" fresh and fuck you to the people that want a ladder system. To each his own I suppose.
-
View User Profile
-
View Posts
-
Send Message
Wise ElderYa know, I've been real nice and have just been having a discussion with you. But you keep insulting and going off like a jerk. Because you cannot be civil, I'm going to assume you cannot be honest as well.
You think it's obtuse for me to argue that people whom do not want to play ladder deserve to play with the same loot table that ladder play has?
Then go play ladder. There's your incentive. You heard him, everyone. No need for ladder only items. I guess we're done here, aye?
PS: Would you people learn how to post-format and knock it off with the quote trains?
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC)
Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan
Just because ladder in itself is an incentive to play ladder doesn't mean people can't be afforded more incentives to play ladder, Ruksak. Not to mention, just because I say that I am for ladder with or without the ladder only material doesn't mean that it justifies ladder NOT having that stuff. I mean really, you say you're being civil, yet, every time I come across you're posts you sound like a petulant twelve year old, egging people on like a troll.
-
View User Profile
-
View Posts
-
Send Message
Wise ElderIf you can't handle a debate, do not engage. So sick of some of you wanting to start shit but you can't finish it. You want to call me childish but I'm not the one flinging insults to make a point about a god damn video game.
If you can't handle a discussion without the insults, name calling and back-handed comments, just quit. Walk away.
I asked you if you would play ladder if it didn't have special ladder-only items. You said "yes". As far as I'm concerned, that's all I wanted to hear.
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC)
Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan
There, I just made an argument for items exclusive to softcore.