This made me angry

  • #21
    Quote from Zero(pS)

    Quote from maka

    I don't think you got OP's point.
    They MADE all these 'toy legendaries', and now they say "people don't use 'toy legendaries' because they suck".
    Yeah, no shit, Sherlock. Maybe you should've figured that out before you made them.

    What they probably didn't know that in a game where it's supposed to be about having fun slaying monsters that so many people would care that much about efficiency in the first place.

    I have personally used weapons like Vigilance (with Deadly Reach) and Schaeffer's Hammer with decent success in mid MPs (and for pathetic amounts of gold, like 50k). They are less gimmicky than people make them out to be. My actual dps with my Schaeffer's hammer was almost twice my sheet dps (and 2.5 times my dps with WW). Stuff like movespeed on a ring or amulet are quite unique, and technically open up choices on other slots that could use better EHP (no need for Tyraels, Inna's, Lacunis), but again people are too worried about losing some of their precious dps if these can't roll quadfecta.

    Things like Buriza/Hellrack, Tormentor and Maximus/Sky-Splitter probably were even designed specificallly for followers. They obviously knew the stats weren't suited for Inferno.

    They are just not MP 10 material, and that's ok in any game about progression. Some things will be more end-game~ish than others. People talk as if there are just one option per slot, when that clearly was never the case.

    I fully agree with how there's should be more options and that these weapons can be a very cool customization feature. But I'm not gonna be a hypocrite and sugarcoat the fact that most other games also fail in this feature (D2, PoE, etc.).


    Then make those non-inferno material legendaries require less than level 60 to equip. And make them drop often too. Problem solved. Low level legendaries that drop pre-inferno.
  • #22
    Quote from Indimix

    Then make those non-inferno material legendaries require less than level 60 to equip. And make them drop often too. Problem solved. Low level legendaries that drop pre-inferno.

    You mean the old crappy legendaries which didn't get any changes with the "Legendary patch", right? Absolutely, I'm all for that. And it seems like a very "easy" change to implement.

    You have some very valuable low lvl legendaries. Genzaniku (socketed), See No Evil (socketed), Spectrum (high dps). I'm pretty sure allowing something like an Earthshatter to drop (and be used) by lvl 46 characters would make it a decent alternative lvling weapon (and let it keep its ilvl 63 rolls to make it interesting).

    If only they were still making changes at the ratio they were post-release :fret:
  • #23
    Quote from Zero(pS)

    Diablo 2 says hi -_- (and pretty much any ARPGs out there in the market).


    Really now.

    There's this item in Path of Exile called Shavronne's Wrappings.
    It has some average stats for a chestpiece, some rare ones can get as much as twice the energy shield plus better resists etc (energy shield is what chars specced into chaos inoculation use as life, ci makes you immune to chaos damage but sets your life at 1). Its quirk is that it makes chaos damage not go through energy shield like it normally does, which enables you to play builds/get gear with the lowlife mechanic (stats that are enabled when your life is below 35%). To get to below 35% you can reserve an amount of your life for auras (there are auras that reserve a % of your mana, using bloodmagic you can reserve a % of your life instead).

    This item is a build enabler. If you were to try to play with a lowlife build without it, you'd have to really tiptoe around chaos damage dealers since your life would be very low and your huge ES would do nothing against the particular damage type. If you do use it, you are way more likely to die from stuff because you miss out on the talents after the ci node, which include a multiplier on all your additive ES bonuses up to that point (the only multiplier existing in game for the moment), and obviously because the chest's stats are in fact way inferior to the better rares. Even so, the item is hugely popular because the reward is just that good. Some call it broken, even! It still doesn't sell for as much as the best rares for the particular slot.

    If you're counting, that item was possible because there exist a life and energy shield mechanic, a damage type that ignores the energy shield, a talent that makes you immune to the damage type that ignores the energy shield, a mechanic (auras) that reserve a number or % of your mana, a mechanic that switches from mana use to life use for abilities, a mechanic that's only activated if on low life and the talents/gear to accompany it.

    Diablo2 didn't have most of that stuff (it did have mechanics like energy shield and damage types that actually did stuff, like poisoning you), but then again Diablo2 came out more than a decade ago.

    Diablo3? Doesn't even have those.

    You can make excuses for the devs and the itemization and people can froth at the mouth about the concept of doubling the hydras on screen and hell, being a fan is fun too but don't say others can't think of real actual interesting mechanics to marry their interesting items with. It's why so many people were disappointed, the potential was always there, it was just never realized.

    edit: Just realized Diablo3 does have 'if on full resource, then x happens' detection! Too bad they only thought to implement that through a passive talent that gives some good old boring dps boost and nothing else. :( Still, better than not having the code ready I suppose.
  • #24
    I am aware of the low-lvl legendaries in PoE which have some very interesting and unique mechanics (I have actually played PoE up to the higher difficulties). And those are quite an accomplishment.

    I was actually alluding to this particular part of his post:
    Quote from RockmanDoom

    "With respect to itemization improvements, the team understands that one of main problems with existing legendaries is that they're often relegated to "toy status" because, while the've got fun effects, they rarely offer comparable upgrades to efficiency-based stats like DPS and EHP.

    Even PoE has some Legendaries which are downright useless (some people would argue that most are like this). They release a couple of those almost every other patch. Not to mention how hard it is to balance some of those Legendaries. You simply cannot balance something like a Kaom's Heart. When you have "rule breaking" mechanics, they're nearly impossible to balance.

    I don't think PoE's way to doing legendaries (crazy affixes, bad stats) would work in D3, because it doesn't have an independent stat system. Items are supposed to determine how strong we are - hence why the developers mentioned "efficiency based stats",

    So having an item with an insanely good "unique trait" (like Leoric's exp boost) and almost no good "stats" wouldn't really fit the current system. Now if we were talking about Crazy Affixes + Potentially Good Stats, then that would fit D3.

    But people first need to understand that the random affixes are actually a part of the Diablo franchise and stop complaining about those (as you see in hundreds of posts on the official forums). "Guaranteed insane stats" are a bad thing for legendaries to have.
  • #25
    That particular item is high level only and has pretty strong stats, having for example up to 60% of a perfect item's es. Very much agreed with the rest of your post.

    The problem with Diablo3 is how inventive can they really be when they're pigeonholed by the game's existing mechanics, or lack thereof. They can make close to best in slot items like Skorn or they can take a hike from what I understand. Double Hydras has a pretty set dps boost, after all, and it can be calculated too.

    The PoE devs sometimes create mechanics specifically for the new uniques (and they can use those mechanics later on other stuff obviously) but this has a lot to do with the fact that supporters that paid 1k can design their own unique, so they bought the development time too. Diablo3 wasn't developed that way so I'm not sure if it's feasible for them to just go ahead and create 'poisoned' from scratch just so a unique can do this.

    Then again, they're Blizzard, not EA, so there's still hope. I'd be very surprised if they succeeded at this point, though.
  • #26
    Quote from elvy

    That particular item is high level only and has pretty strong stats, having for example up to 60% of a perfect item's es. Very much agreed with the rest of your post.

    The problem with Diablo3 is how inventive can they really be when they're pigeonholed by the game's existing mechanics, or lack thereof. They can make close to best in slot items like Skorn or they can take a hike from what I understand. Double Hydras has a pretty set dps boost, after all, and it can be calculated too.


    I think this is another case of D3's design having consequences beyond the immediately obvious. 'Build-enabling' items only make sense if there's such a thing a non-sensical build that can only work in conjunction with the relevant item/s, and preferably where switching builds is difficult/impossible, so that you're committing to a skill/gear combination. For that, you need an environment where there's only a few builds that work with a 'vanilla' gear loadout, then a bunch of other builds that work poorly, if at all, unless enabled by a specific set of items. In an environment where trading is easy (whether it's via an official GAH, RMAH or even just a really well-functioning trade channel), skill loadouts can be changed in seconds, and there's a lack of fundamentally bad builds (all of which are, IMO, much better than their respective alternatives) all that would result in is players taking a little longer to switch specs.

    The price we pay for being able to respec without paying huge stacks of cash or completely re-rolling, not being shepherded into a very limited set of viable builds, and having access to a convenient item-trading system is that it's much trickier to make gear interesting. I still think there's room in D3 for interesting 'threshold' builds (like CM or TR), but that would take exactly the sort of overhaul of both skills and affixes that Blizzard really does take their time over.
  • #27
    Quote from Zero(pS)

    Quote from Indimix

    Then make those non-inferno material legendaries require less than level 60 to equip. And make them drop often too. Problem solved. Low level legendaries that drop pre-inferno.

    You mean the old crappy legendaries which didn't get any changes with the "Legendary patch", right? Absolutely, I'm all for that. And it seems like a very "easy" change to implement.

    You have some very valuable low lvl legendaries. Genzaniku (socketed), See No Evil (socketed), Spectrum (high dps). I'm pretty sure allowing something like an Earthshatter to drop (and be used) by lvl 46 characters would make it a decent alternative lvling weapon (and let it keep its ilvl 63 rolls to make it interesting).

    If only they were still making changes at the ratio they were post-release :fret:


    Yes those.
  • #28
    I blame Jay Wilson... that dude was poison for the entire franchise ;)
  • #29
    Quote from Xenocow

    I blame Jay Wilson... that dude was poison for the entire franchise ;)

    Because he developed the whole game by himself and whipped all other senior developers into accepting his ideas, right? :facepalm:
  • #30
    We will never know who was taking the decisions.

    But even if we do, what is the point?.

    What's done is done, now, learn from that and move on.

    The only thing I wont ever tolerate, is the fact that they had D2 and WoW to learn a lot of what works and what doesn't. And still, they seem to be "testing" and "discovering" obvious things on the fly. It's disgusting.
  • #31
    Quote from Indimix

    We will never know who was taking the decisions.

    But even if we do, what is the point?.

    What's done is done, now, learn from that and move on.

    Bam! You win, sir. -_-

    The only thing I wont ever tolerate, is the fact that they had D2 and WoW to learn a lot of what works and what doesn't. And still, they seem to be "testing" and "discovering" obvious things on the fly. It's disgusting.

    To be fair D3 doesn't seem to have absolutely anything in common with D2 or WoW's core systems (stat and item systems). Only influences. That's how I see it at least.

    Whether that was a good decision (to change everything) or not is up for debate. And I know most people think they made the bad decision.
  • #32
    D2 had it's flaws, it was far from perfect, but it was fun!, even after years, it was still fun to play, fun as hell, no pun intended.

    You just can't throw away decades of experience, feedback and knowledge because you want to try something new. No sir. Not with my dear Diablo saga.
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