Using the mystic/ blacksmith to their full potential

  • #1
    I've read many posts about the mystic and how it can improve the game a lot and most of them were great. What I haven't seen is a post going into detail as to how to ensure that players divert their attention away from the AH and instead focus on actually killing as many demons as possible through the use of the mystic/ blacksmith.

    The BoA items are in my opinion great because it puts the player back on the killing field. Probably the only thing I do not enjoy about it is the amount of gold necessary to actually create a very good item. I do realise that if you're a hardcore selffound kind of guy, even if you create just 2-3 items they're probably going to be a lot better than what you have, but in softcore things are different. What I propose is simple: make salvage materials BoA, add them as materials for the mystic and the BoA blacksmith items, remove gold cost or substantially reduce it for the blacksmith/ mystic/ jewelcrafter (it is up for debate which one, though i think the mystic should be the ideal candidate along with some nerfs to the gold cost of the blacksmith BoA items).

    Some people have a lot of gold. I haven't reached a very high paragon lvl because i constantly leveled up new characters. When i discovered hardcore selffound i deleted my softcore characters so i think I am a little biased here because i could never get beyond 5-10 mil gold as a softcore ( i didn't sell much on the ah and i usually spent my gold on the BoA items ) but i believe the game as it is right now and its gold sinks are balanced around the AH and the incredible amount of gold some people have. This creates a neverending cycle which instead of pushing people away from the AH it facilitates using it more and more. By making salvage materials BoA and introducing them as requirements for items and even for the mystic item adjustments ( introducing new affixes, changing the already present ones, improve others) i think people would find that salvaging them would prove to be much wiser than selling on the AH. Demonic essences were a great way to put the killing back in diablo 3 but the idea can be improved upon.

    I have to agree that my idea would not accomplish much on its own. First we need better itemization and even the mystic. But i do believe that it should do wonders together with those systems if they were to be tweaked a "little".

    I know i might be hated for saying this, but i still believe that Path of Exile has great itemization. I don't really play the game because it doesn't feel as fluid as Diablo 3 but its depth is mind boggling. One thing that helps is the economy which in diablo 3 revolves around gold. That HAS to change. I might be contradicting myself because BoA items would not help the economy, but we could make some of them CbA( cannot be auctioned). This is just an idea and with your help we can perfect it.

    I would love to hear what you think and maybe you could throw some ideas. Some people talk about itemization and ways to improve it, what if we talked about economy here and ways to make sure that itemization ends up being complemented by it. If we have a discussion worthy of note maybe blizzard will hear some of us.

    Uhm, if there already is a post similar to this one, i'm sorry but i haven't found it, maybe you could direct me to it...?
  • #2
    So... your ideas are kind of hidden in your text. Let me try to go through them.

    1) Make salvage materials BoA => There are many people against more stuff that is BoA. But the recent interview at DFans gave me the feeling that Blizzard might make more things BoA, and I actually like that too, because the 1.07 recipes are still quite viable. And they haven't killed trading at all, Vile Ward and amulet prices are still sky high.

    2) The gold issue: there's just no gold sink. This is why the Marquise Gem was ~120m gold (just all the pure crafting costs in gold combined); Blizzard started a desperate, small attempt to take money out of the system. In the early days of D1/D2 repair costs were meant to be the gold sink, but let's be honest - they never worked. There need to be some crazy gold sink. And once you have a gold sink established, it needs to "stop" once the trillions of gold that are in the system right now have "left".

    3) Trading like in PoE - related to the previous point... gold would be fine, but whatever is the "trade currency" needs to be capped or maintained at a stable level. It's like in real life, the authorities determine how much money gets printed. In D3, there's an infinite stream of new money every day, and no sink. In D2, there were gems and SoJs, which is why the uber event required SoJs to be sold. Don't just shift the problem to the old D2 system or the PoE system, tackle the problem at its root.

    4) Some items "non-auctionable" - we had this numerous times. People have tasted the sweetness of items available. If the AH was too be removed or made unusable (which it would be if items became untradable) something else would take its place. The return of 3rd party scam websites. No, thank you.

    Totally agree that itemization needs to be complemented by other changes. I'm interested in how they drain the money out of the system and stop once it's gone (hopefully we'll get there). As for the BoA materials - I'm in. As for the trading changes... not too keen on this.
  • #3
    Assuming the mystic will be introduced sometime after itemization gets "fixed," I'd see the mystic as an end game feature. If itemization makes finding the items and upgrades you want in-game a much more feasible task, then that alone will lead the AH to what it's meant to be: a place where you can acquire supplementary gear.

    I'd rather any tweaking of items cost an absurd amount of gold, way more than crafting Marquise gems. After all, you're not giving your gold away to another player via AH upgrades. You're dumping gold you got from the game back into the game to get the item you want. If not gold, then perhaps mats that you get from completing incredibly difficult quests. High the MP, more likely the mats will drop, etc. Perhaps even limit the use of the mystic's abilities per 24 hours. Some people won't like rhat, but it will keep bringing people back day after day if they want to keep buffing up their characters. That's a whole other idea, though.
    Blizzard Entertainment - Diablo III Community MVP
  • #4
    Quote from Jaetch

    I'd rather any tweaking of items cost an absurd amount of gold, way more than crafting Marquise gems. After all, you're not giving your gold away to another player via AH upgrades.


    Wait.....what? I think you just had a brainfreeze, there. How exactly would you be getting that gold? Unless YOU'RE not buying from the AH, but OTHER PEOPLE are, so you're still making billions (by selling gear on the AH), but you're not spending them (on the AH).
    I don't think you have any idea the small amounts of gold you make by just playing the game (i.e., picking up gold piles and vendoring stuff).
  • #5
    I have to admit my ideas were a bit "hidden" but i'd like to clarify a bit on the BoA salvage materials.

    First of all, by making them BoA and intruducing them as materials for mystic recipes/ item enhancements/ enchants ( don't know what it will be) and maybe into some blacksmith boa items( which should be on par with the current BoA items) we should see more and more people stop using the auction house and instead salvage the items. However, following the introduction of such a system one might feel forced to pick up everything( all blues+ rares etc). Creating some other item in the form of the current demonic essences that is received from salvaging should fix the constant use of the auction house for improvement. Maybe we would still grab some gear for let's say mp0/ mp1. But higher lvl characters would want to keep all their items to improve their current gear. One idea would be to have such an item be given to you once you salvage a rare at a let's say 25% chance. Legendaries could play an even more significant role in this, allowing them to give you that material at a 100% rate, perhaps even multiple materials. We could even create a whole new item that you can get from salvaging legendaries but this has already been discussed by other people.

    Once you realise that you want everything you find to improve your current gear you wouldn't want to put it on the AH and you would focus on farming. People might still buy blues from the AH but that's hardly enough to farm mp1 with much efficiency. That would work similar to LFR in wow (catching up getting some gear before you can raid) which would translate into getting blues to farm hell efficiently and work on getting into inferno, but that would be achieved by actually playing the game..

    To get back on topic the way i see it is that we don't need any new gold sinks ( i'm not saying i wouldn't want those systems be brought in, such as transmog, new BoA and other ideas from Blizz, i would, but not labeled as gold sinks). We need to solve the problem at its core, not patch it on the outside. Gold sinks are supposedly needed because there is a lot of gold. But not everyone has billions of gold, and gold sinks like the marquise gem are clearly for such people. Instead of creating more things that a privileged few can indulge in we should create ways for you to enhance your character by killing demons. If new gold sinks were to be introduced similarly to the marquise gems, people would either feel left out or forced to use the AH, which is not helping our cause.

    Also Jaetch mentioned that he'd like the tweaking of the items to cost an absurd amount of gold. I'd like to ask you simply this: Why? if those item enhancements simply required that you farm and farm and farm until you get that material you've been waiting for for so long, why do we need for the enchant to still cost an absurd amount of gold. If that would be the case it would still favor using the AH to get gold, unless we made some of those materials be sold for incredible amounts of gold, in which case you would also be given a choice: hold on to them and upgrade items or sell them to the vendor for gold. I believe that we really have to think this through because simply having a big cost does not necessarily help us in our struggle to focus less and less on the AH.

    Bagstone also mentioned that gold could be capped to solve some issues. While i do believe that that is a good idea, it might not be enough, items would simply be listed at that maximum cost. But it might work if the materials for the mystic/ blacksmith became the new currency, but at the moment i don't see a clear way for that to happen. Also, regarding those trading changes, my train of though was simply this: some people hate BoA because they cannot trade with friends and etc and i'd rather not force them into solitude. I'm not saying Cannot be Auctioned is the best solution, but i'd like something similar to still allow people to play with friends and trade together. Personally i have no problems with BoA but i can see why some dislike it, maybe we can find something that works for all.

    Thank you for all your answers so far, i'm hoping to hear more from you.
  • #6
    Quote from maka

    Quote from Jaetch

    I'd rather any tweaking of items cost an absurd amount of gold, way more than crafting Marquise gems. After all, you're not giving your gold away to another player via AH upgrades.


    Wait.....what? I think you just had a brainfreeze, there. How exactly would you be getting that gold? Unless YOU'RE not buying from the AH, but OTHER PEOPLE are, so you're still making billions (by selling gear on the AH), but you're not spending them (on the AH).
    I don't think you have any idea the small amounts of gold you make by just playing the game (i.e., picking up gold piles and vendoring stuff).


    Approximately 200K per round (generic farm route) at paragon 100. And this is not picking everything up. Anyway, people will still be selling things on the AH, if not buying. So in combination with what you pick up each round, things you periodically sell, it adds up fairly quickly. I don't know the self-found "rules," if it forbids you from even selling in the AH... then I don't know.

    Okay, maybe not as much as Marquise, I was overzealous there, I'll admit. But definitely way more than crafting costs of 75K gold for a pair of shoulders. You're not scratching a lottery ticket in this case, you're creating something of your own desires, obviously it should cost more. Perhaps there can be a formula that scales depending on the quality of your item, much like the "item scores" we see on DiabloProgress or that recent MP level Diabro3.com thingie. So the better your item is, modifying it takes much more resources.

    Come on, I don't think anyone would think it's fair if I get to push my sword's crit damage to 100% with 50K gold (if that's something a mystic can do in the future). Don't care if the sword becomes BoA.
    Blizzard Entertainment - Diablo III Community MVP
  • #7
    @Jaetch
    I already consider 5 million gold an obscene amount.
    sto lavorando
  • #8
    Quote from inkcheese

    @Jaetch
    I already consider 5 million gold an obscene amount.


    Yes, but it's an investment that stays with you.

    Crafting costs of 50K, 75K, 100K gold are tossed around and out each time you get something you don't want.

    If a mystic gets to permanently modify your item for the better, guaranteed, it stays with you. It should cost a lot. A lot more than crafting.

    ...Again, if not gold, then the materials—or whatever's necessary for the mystic to do her job—should come from brutally hard challenges. If you're guaranteed progress in terms of gear/stats (e.g. no luck or RNG involved), either a ton of resources should be dumped into it or a ton of time and effort.
    Blizzard Entertainment - Diablo III Community MVP
  • #9
    "..Again, if not gold, then the materials—or whatever's necessary for the mystic to do her job—should come from brutally hard challenges. If you're guaranteed progress in terms of gear/stats (e.g. no luck or RNG involved), either a ton of resources should be dumped into it or a ton of time and effort."

    I agree with what you said right there. Personally i even believe that the current prices for the BoA items are a bit too much considering how many of them you usually have to create. One idea would be to reduce the amount of gold required and making demonic essences much rarer with a higher chance off more difficult mobs that spawn in random events. The idea of purple monsters being more difficult has been thrown around and i think it would work nicely, especially in random events. You couldn't just go and farm them similarly to how you would diablo/ butcher or any other boss or area. The purple monster being harder but with an increased chance from let's say 1% to 20% would mean that you get rewarded for doing a more difficult encounter (difficulty in my opinion should not come from straight up high damage, but something similar to belial, tuned much tighter, with spells that deal %of life that cannot be reduced), but this is just an idea, i'm sure you can come up with something better.

    To get back on topic, some resources must be required for enchants/ items, but i think those resources shouldn't be millions of gold, personally i even believe it shouldn't be gold, but something else like salvage materials or new items similar to demonic essences. You have pointed out that you get around 200K gold per round of farm. That's not that much. Depending on speed that round may take from 10 min to 30 min. It does add up, but slowly, if we take the AH out of the equation. The marquise gem would be next to impossible to get no matter how good you are, no matter the challenges that you have overcome. It's just a mindless grind to get that gold. To be honest even getting the 100% crit damage gem would be difficult, but the difference between 100% and 110% is just too great and the only reason it is that big is because some people have billions of gold and blizzard is trying to balance things out around them. I just believe that we should make gold less useful because it can be tied to the AH effectively forcing you to use it.

    Anyway... what do you think?
  • #10
    Quote from Jaetch

    Quote from maka

    Quote from Jaetch

    I'd rather any tweaking of items cost an absurd amount of gold, way more than crafting Marquise gems. After all, you're not giving your gold away to another player via AH upgrades.


    Wait.....what? I think you just had a brainfreeze, there. How exactly would you be getting that gold? Unless YOU'RE not buying from the AH, but OTHER PEOPLE are, so you're still making billions (by selling gear on the AH), but you're not spending them (on the AH).
    I don't think you have any idea the small amounts of gold you make by just playing the game (i.e., picking up gold piles and vendoring stuff).


    Approximately 200K per round (generic farm route) at paragon 100. And this is not picking everything up. Anyway, people will still be selling things on the AH, if not buying. So in combination with what you pick up each round, things you periodically sell, it adds up fairly quickly. I don't know the self-found "rules," if it forbids you from even selling in the AH... then I don't know.

    Okay, maybe not as much as Marquise, I was overzealous there, I'll admit. But definitely way more than crafting costs of 75K gold for a pair of shoulders. You're not scratching a lottery ticket in this case, you're creating something of your own desires, obviously it should cost more. Perhaps there can be a formula that scales depending on the quality of your item, much like the "item scores" we see on DiabloProgress or that recent MP level Diabro3.com thingie. So the better your item is, modifying it takes much more resources.

    Come on, I don't think anyone would think it's fair if I get to push my sword's crit damage to 100% with 50K gold (if that's something a mystic can do in the future). Don't care if the sword becomes BoA.


    Yeah, not 75k, but a Marquise gem costs, what, 20M? That's a bit steep :P
    I've seen people pushing values of like 50M, 80M, 160M. That's insane. That's gold that's only available to people who play the AH game, and the point of these kinds of systems is to take people away from the AH.
  • #11
    Currently the items are strongly linked to the AH. Now, we could sever that link by making all of them BoA or just rares+legendaries or we could create more interesting opportunities. Such an opportunity is what i've already mentioned. By making salvage materials both BoA and materials for the mystic enchants we have just created a chance for the player to either use the ah for some gold which he might need for repairs or a transmog, or to salvage the item to further his cause and increase his character's potency. This way the player is drawn away from the AH game and while not forced to kill demons he is allowed to progress much more by actually playing the game. If we make gold less and less interesting people would only use the AH for cosmetic purposes ( buying different levels of gear to transmog them) or something of the like.
  • #12
    Um, I feel that the best way to go would be to add more optional BoA.

    For instance, if the mystic allowed you to gamble for power (re-roll affix range, or re-roll specific affix into a new affix), it should make your item BoA. Anything that allows you to improve your item should be "BoA". Otherwise, people would look at it with the "Oh, can I make profits? Is it worth it or can I buy a cheaper one?".

    People can still buy items they wish to gamble, but they will not be able to sell it if they gamble it. It's about improving your items, not gambling for gold.
  • #13
    First of all, DoomSlayers, I'd like to start off by saying that i really liked your post about improving random events, dungeons and purples, especially the idea of improving the purple monsters.

    Now, onto the task at hand. Optional BoA does sound appealing but the problem that i'm trying to solve is the AH dependency where as a player i feel forced to use it to become more powerful. As long as those BoA items require that i play the AH(be it from a gold perspective or anything else that can be bought off the AH), personally, i don't believe they have succeeded as a BoA item.

    While I do believe that making the item BoA once you improve it is a viable choice, i don't feel that is the solution that best deals with our AH problem because you would simply try to buy the best there is for as low a price as possible and then improve it. It is a very good one certainly, but it only covers one aspect of the issue. You also spoke of a way to gamble which in my opinion heavily relies on the AH( correct me if i'm wrong) because it means that you search the AH for something that looks promising, buy it and see what happens. I'm not saying my idea is better,nor am i trying to dismiss your own, because as i think about it, mine also deals with just 1 aspect, i'm simply trying to find the best answer to our dilemma.


    But this is why i have made this post, to hear all of your opinions and eventually create something greater together.
  • #14
    Quote from Vladh

    First of all, DoomSlayers, I'd like to start off by saying that i really liked your post about improving random events, dungeons and purples, especially the idea of improving the purple monsters.

    Now, onto the task at hand. Optional BoA does sound appealing but the problem that i'm trying to solve is the AH dependency where as a player i feel forced to use it to become more powerful. As long as those BoA items require that i play the AH(be it from a gold perspective or anything else that can be bought off the AH), personally, i don't believe they have succeeded as a BoA item.

    While I do believe that making the item BoA once you improve it is a viable choice, i don't feel that is the solution that best deals with our AH problem because you would simply try to buy the best there is for as low a price as possible and then improve it. It is a very good one certainly, but it only covers one aspect of the issue. You also spoke of a way to gamble which in my opinion heavily relies on the AH( correct me if i'm wrong) because it means that you search the AH for something that looks promising, buy it and see what happens. I'm not saying my idea is better,nor am i trying to dismiss your own, because as i think about it, mine also deals with just 1 aspect, i'm simply trying to find the best answer to our dilemma.


    But this is why i have made this post, to hear all of your opinions and eventually create something greater together.


    While your concerns are certainly true (people are indeed going to buy items and gamble them), it also allows more items (you find) to potentially be viable. If you find a nice 900 DPS weapon with CHD and LS but no socket, you might re-roll one of the useless (or not so good) affix. If you are lucky, you might end up with a socket.

    While I believe this would benefit people who do not wish to use the AH or reduce its usage, it will certainly create a market around "almost good" items. At the end of the day, if people gamble the item, it is removed from the economy. It is not a given that it will be better.

    I feel that the game needs a way to drain items out of the economy. I thought this was a decent way to do it. It is optional. Not everyone can afford gambling. Since there's no profit to be made by gambling itself (however, I do realize it might very well increase the price of "almost good items"), only the people who truly wish to improve their gear will use it.

    I don't think it's a bad thing on its own, even if people decide to flip them or artificially increase their price. "Almost good" items are much easier to obtain. Every run, I find a few of them.

    In any case, I feel that the Mystic shouldn't be too costly. If it makes the item BoA, it's an item sink. You actually want to encourage people to use it to sink out items.

    You are free to disagree. I feel that my suggestion, although flawed, offers something to both sides.
  • #15
    Quote from DoomSlayers

    Quote from Vladh

    First of all, DoomSlayers, I'd like to start off by saying that i really liked your post about improving random events, dungeons and purples, especially the idea of improving the purple monsters.

    Now, onto the task at hand. Optional BoA does sound appealing but the problem that i'm trying to solve is the AH dependency where as a player i feel forced to use it to become more powerful. As long as those BoA items require that i play the AH(be it from a gold perspective or anything else that can be bought off the AH), personally, i don't believe they have succeeded as a BoA item.

    While I do believe that making the item BoA once you improve it is a viable choice, i don't feel that is the solution that best deals with our AH problem because you would simply try to buy the best there is for as low a price as possible and then improve it. It is a very good one certainly, but it only covers one aspect of the issue. You also spoke of a way to gamble which in my opinion heavily relies on the AH( correct me if i'm wrong) because it means that you search the AH for something that looks promising, buy it and see what happens. I'm not saying my idea is better,nor am i trying to dismiss your own, because as i think about it, mine also deals with just 1 aspect, i'm simply trying to find the best answer to our dilemma.


    But this is why i have made this post, to hear all of your opinions and eventually create something greater together.


    While your concerns are certainly true (people are indeed going to buy items and gamble them), it also allows more items (you find) to potentially be viable. If you find a nice 900 DPS weapon with CHD and LS but no socket, you might re-roll one of the useless (or not so good) affix. If you are lucky, you might end up with a socket.

    While I believe this would benefit people who do not wish to use the AH or reduce its usage, it will certainly create a market around "almost good" items. At the end of the day, if people gamble the item, it is removed from the economy. It is not a given that it will be better.

    I feel that the game needs a way to drain items out of the economy. I thought this was a decent way to do it. It is optional. Not everyone can afford gambling. Since there's no profit to be made by gambling itself (however, I do realize it might very well increase the price of "almost good items"), only the people who truly wish to improve their gear will use it.

    I don't think it's a bad thing on its own, even if people decide to flip them or artificially increase their price. "Almost good" items are much easier to obtain. Every run, I find a few of them.

    In any case, I feel that the Mystic shouldn't be too costly. If it makes the item BoA, it's an item sink. You actually want to encourage people to use it to sink out items.

    You are free to disagree. I feel that my suggestion, although flawed, offers something to both sides.


    Actually i believe that with the goal of taking items out of the economy in mind, your idea is pretty much the best there is.

    The problem however is that i believe we should search for solutions that prevent items from ever reaching the AH. I think that by creating certain materials that can be found through the salvaging of rares and legendaries, which can be put to use eventually through the mystic and blacksmith, people will think twice before trying to sell the items they find. Making those salvages more important will give the player the incentive to keep the best item he can find, salvage the weakest and improve the item he feels has the potential to be great. This is especially true for those who already have incredible gear. This idea certainly can be tweaked and is complemented by your own.

    I look forward to hearing more ideas.
  • #16
    Quote from Vladh

    Quote from DoomSlayers

    Quote from Vladh

    First of all, DoomSlayers, I'd like to start off by saying that i really liked your post about improving random events, dungeons and purples, especially the idea of improving the purple monsters.

    Now, onto the task at hand. Optional BoA does sound appealing but the problem that i'm trying to solve is the AH dependency where as a player i feel forced to use it to become more powerful. As long as those BoA items require that i play the AH(be it from a gold perspective or anything else that can be bought off the AH), personally, i don't believe they have succeeded as a BoA item.

    While I do believe that making the item BoA once you improve it is a viable choice, i don't feel that is the solution that best deals with our AH problem because you would simply try to buy the best there is for as low a price as possible and then improve it. It is a very good one certainly, but it only covers one aspect of the issue. You also spoke of a way to gamble which in my opinion heavily relies on the AH( correct me if i'm wrong) because it means that you search the AH for something that looks promising, buy it and see what happens. I'm not saying my idea is better,nor am i trying to dismiss your own, because as i think about it, mine also deals with just 1 aspect, i'm simply trying to find the best answer to our dilemma.


    But this is why i have made this post, to hear all of your opinions and eventually create something greater together.


    While your concerns are certainly true (people are indeed going to buy items and gamble them), it also allows more items (you find) to potentially be viable. If you find a nice 900 DPS weapon with CHD and LS but no socket, you might re-roll one of the useless (or not so good) affix. If you are lucky, you might end up with a socket.

    While I believe this would benefit people who do not wish to use the AH or reduce its usage, it will certainly create a market around "almost good" items. At the end of the day, if people gamble the item, it is removed from the economy. It is not a given that it will be better.

    I feel that the game needs a way to drain items out of the economy. I thought this was a decent way to do it. It is optional. Not everyone can afford gambling. Since there's no profit to be made by gambling itself (however, I do realize it might very well increase the price of "almost good items"), only the people who truly wish to improve their gear will use it.

    I don't think it's a bad thing on its own, even if people decide to flip them or artificially increase their price. "Almost good" items are much easier to obtain. Every run, I find a few of them.

    In any case, I feel that the Mystic shouldn't be too costly. If it makes the item BoA, it's an item sink. You actually want to encourage people to use it to sink out items.

    You are free to disagree. I feel that my suggestion, although flawed, offers something to both sides.


    Actually i believe that with the goal of taking items out of the economy in mind, your idea is pretty much the best there is.

    The problem however is that i believe we should search for solutions that prevent items from ever reaching the AH. I think that by creating certain materials that can be found through the salvaging of rares and legendaries, which can be put to use eventually through the mystic and blacksmith, people will think twice before trying to sell the items they find. Making those salvages more important will give the player the incentive to keep the best item he can find, salvage the weakest and improve the item he feels has the potential to be great. This is especially true for those who already have incredible gear. This idea certainly can be tweaked and is complemented by your own.

    I look forward to hearing more ideas.


    Nothing stops both ideas to exist.

    If you don't have enough gold, you can sell some items on the AH. If you have enough gold, you can salvage items. There can be a healthy balance. Some people are bound to be very rich, so they naturally have an excess of gold. Those people will more likely be buyers while those who play the game normally will be occasional sellers.

    Also, some builds require extremely specific builds. If you want to try a 0 cooldown Zombie Dog (although with the new patch, the off-hand will be able to drop in Inferno. Skull Grasp, Mara and SoJ are still a headach), you will most likely be required to use the AH.

    Do you want to salvage and use the materials or do you want to sell the materials for that new build you want to try?

    Do you want to keep that decent item for improvement or do you want to sell it for gold so you can craft more?

    Some healthy choices can still include the AH. The only thing wrong with the AH is that you feel forced to use it (especially for specific builds). If you can play through the game and progress on your own, then there's nothing wrong with a tool that makes trades easier and safer.
  • #17
    Quote from DoomSlayers

    Quote from Vladh

    Quote from DoomSlayers

    Quote from Vladh

    First of all, DoomSlayers, I'd like to start off by saying that i really liked your post about improving random events, dungeons and purples, especially the idea of improving the purple monsters.

    Now, onto the task at hand. Optional BoA does sound appealing but the problem that i'm trying to solve is the AH dependency where as a player i feel forced to use it to become more powerful. As long as those BoA items require that i play the AH(be it from a gold perspective or anything else that can be bought off the AH), personally, i don't believe they have succeeded as a BoA item.

    While I do believe that making the item BoA once you improve it is a viable choice, i don't feel that is the solution that best deals with our AH problem because you would simply try to buy the best there is for as low a price as possible and then improve it. It is a very good one certainly, but it only covers one aspect of the issue. You also spoke of a way to gamble which in my opinion heavily relies on the AH( correct me if i'm wrong) because it means that you search the AH for something that looks promising, buy it and see what happens. I'm not saying my idea is better,nor am i trying to dismiss your own, because as i think about it, mine also deals with just 1 aspect, i'm simply trying to find the best answer to our dilemma.


    But this is why i have made this post, to hear all of your opinions and eventually create something greater together.


    While your concerns are certainly true (people are indeed going to buy items and gamble them), it also allows more items (you find) to potentially be viable. If you find a nice 900 DPS weapon with CHD and LS but no socket, you might re-roll one of the useless (or not so good) affix. If you are lucky, you might end up with a socket.

    While I believe this would benefit people who do not wish to use the AH or reduce its usage, it will certainly create a market around "almost good" items. At the end of the day, if people gamble the item, it is removed from the economy. It is not a given that it will be better.

    I feel that the game needs a way to drain items out of the economy. I thought this was a decent way to do it. It is optional. Not everyone can afford gambling. Since there's no profit to be made by gambling itself (however, I do realize it might very well increase the price of "almost good items"), only the people who truly wish to improve their gear will use it.

    I don't think it's a bad thing on its own, even if people decide to flip them or artificially increase their price. "Almost good" items are much easier to obtain. Every run, I find a few of them.

    In any case, I feel that the Mystic shouldn't be too costly. If it makes the item BoA, it's an item sink. You actually want to encourage people to use it to sink out items.

    You are free to disagree. I feel that my suggestion, although flawed, offers something to both sides.


    Actually i believe that with the goal of taking items out of the economy in mind, your idea is pretty much the best there is.

    The problem however is that i believe we should search for solutions that prevent items from ever reaching the AH. I think that by creating certain materials that can be found through the salvaging of rares and legendaries, which can be put to use eventually through the mystic and blacksmith, people will think twice before trying to sell the items they find. Making those salvages more important will give the player the incentive to keep the best item he can find, salvage the weakest and improve the item he feels has the potential to be great. This is especially true for those who already have incredible gear. This idea certainly can be tweaked and is complemented by your own.

    I look forward to hearing more ideas.


    Nothing stops both ideas to exist.

    If you don't have enough gold, you can sell some items on the AH. If you have enough gold, you can salvage items. There can be a healthy balance. Some people are bound to be very rich, so they naturally have an excess of gold. Those people will more likely be buyers while those who play the game normally will be occasional sellers.

    Also, some builds require extremely specific builds. If you want to try a 0 cooldown Zombie Dog (although with the new patch, the off-hand will be able to drop in Inferno. Skull Grasp, Mara and SoJ are still a headach), you will most likely be required to use the AH.

    Do you want to salvage and use the materials or do you want to sell the materials for that new build you want to try?

    Do you want to keep that decent item for improvement or do you want to sell it for gold so you can craft more?

    Some healthy choices can still include the AH. The only thing wrong with the AH is that you feel forced to use it (especially for specific builds). If you can play through the game and progress on your own, then there's nothing wrong with a tool that makes trades easier and safer.


    You have a point. It is especially true that legendaries which help develop new builds will become a target on the AH. And i don't think either of our ideas deals with that issue. Maybe it would work if we made legendaries BoA but i think that would be a bit too much for some people ( given the way the new items will look and act, based on what we've heard from Travis Day, i wouldn't be against them being BoA, because they would change the way you play your character. I think because of that legendaries would be worthy of being available to only a select few, a lucky few who have farmed a lot and therefore earned them).

    Yet another idea might be giving the mystic the ability to enchant the item with skill altering effects ( not just damage increase, but effects similar to what Travis Day has in mind for legendaries). People would still be drawn to the AH though because it would just be a lot easier to simply buy a legendary with a specific skill altering effect. This would mean that making them BoA is the only solution. Any thoughts on how to deal with legendaries being a target on the AH?
  • #18
    ...Again, if not gold, then the materials—or whatever's necessary for the mystic to do her job—should come from brutally hard challenges. If you're guaranteed progress in terms of gear/stats (e.g. no luck or RNG involved), either a ton of resources should be dumped into it or a ton of time and effort.


    Perhaps adding a "selffound"-tag could help with this (and it would help in other situations as well as seen in other threads), when salvaging selffound items you have a chance to get "premium" crafting materials (BoA) that can be used at mystic or blacksmith to make/enhance better items or make elixirs to increase the quality of lot you get later on when playing.

    The downside of a slow steady improvement of stuff on mystic is ofc it takes away some of the "high" you get when a legendary drops and an orange pillar shows in game.


    Totally agree that itemization needs to be complemented by other changes. I'm interested in how they drain the money out of the system and stop once it's gone (hopefully we'll get there). As for the BoA materials - I'm in. As for the trading changes... not too keen on this.


    This is a really tricky one, the more gold sinks they add for regular players, the more worth it is for the botters who farm gold
  • #19
    Quote from zimira

    This is a really tricky one, the more gold sinks they add for regular players, the more worth it is for the botters who farm gold


    It can't be worse than now, when gold can buy almost any item and billions are required...
  • #20
    Quote from Vulmio

    Quote from zimira

    This is a really tricky one, the more gold sinks they add for regular players, the more worth it is for the botters who farm gold


    It can't be worse than now, when gold can buy almost any item and billions are required...


    I really don't think we've reached the worst case scenario yet. If itemization were to be implemented while not changing the economy in any way (basically just introducing new affixes and more interesting legendaries while keeping gold as the only currency and with a vast influence), the AH would simply adapt and people would still continue to focus on the AH "gameplay". Sure, it would be more interesting for the self-found people, but the problem is, gold sinks like current BoA and the marquise gems are balanced around people having billions of gold, something that is not true for anyone interested in enjoying the game for what it is supposed to be -the thrill of the item hunt while slaying demons. If the mystic were to be implemented in a similar fashion to the current BoA system, they wouldn't accomplish very much. It would be balanced around the rich people ( enchants would cost millions of gold) and anyone who started playing D3 after the change to itemization would still be forced to use the AH( and anyone else who does not have lots of gold). Those gold sinks Blizzard keeps talking about are not the solution, they are "fun" for the rich people, but they act against the very nature of the game. We need to cut the problem from its contagious roots, which is the AH. I don't know if removing the AH is the solution, but introducing new materials that are soulbound and linking them to the blacksmith/ mystic along with many other tweaks should do the trick.
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