CC immunity and unavoidable monster abilites

  • #81


    There are items reducing cc duration. If cc is a problem, that affix should be buffed (like multiply it's effect by 5). This way, it would be a new interesting affix. If, even with this, there is too much unavoidable damage, use defensive stats. Even more usefull affixes now !

    But no, people just want main stat/ias/socket/crit ! Good itemisation = more damage !!! And after that they complain about the itemisation patch, while all they want is the affix : "kill X more monsters per second".


    I stacked Crowd control reduction on my monk and I got up to around 35% and tested it for pvp. It wasn't very noticable and the reduction suffers from deminishing returns like most other defensive stats.


    I know it's not enough and this is why I wrote the affix should be buffed (IF cc is really a problem, personnaly, I deal with it and I don't play a barb). Of course the easiest solution is nerfing or "iwinbutton".
  • #82

    (and since there's no DR on monster CC you can be unable to show off your great gaming skill for almost the entire duration of a fight)


    In all seriousness, how long do fights typically last that "the entire duration of a fight" is such a lengthy period of time that these things become so vastly frustrating?

    That's what I'm simply not understanding.

    I kill most MP6 elite packs in 15-20 seconds with 77k DPS. I am rarely frustrated by the "bad design" people are touting in this thread.
    66.0k elite kills :: 1.97m total kills :: p244
    Planet Express <PlanEx>
    (V) (°,,°) (V)
  • #83
    i just had an idea to elaborate on the topic... to those people still stuck on gear / playstyle, this is what the rest of us are talking about.

    step 1. load up diablo 3
    step 2. load up a game in any act / MP you're comfortable with
    step 3. fight an elite, then, right before you attack, unplug your mouse and keyboard
    step 4. die
    step 5. understand what we're talking about
    WD - mostly other chars are toilet... my pride and joy ;D http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/SirBoneselot-1182/hero/1672627
  • #84


    Like I said, its about Gear/Skill/Playstyle.

    If it annoys you choose a level at which it doesnt annoy you...aka you can kill them before they annoy you. It has nothing to do with "Noob play lower mp" it has everything with noob play at a level that doesnt annoy you.


    Holy shit, please go back and read the first three pages. Your posts have absolutely nothing to do with this thread.

    We're not talking about glass canons go rampage on MP10. We're talking about careful players, equipped with defense abilities to the teeth, and super hardcore gaming skills, who are unable to do anything because certain CC effects do not allow you to take any action (and since there's no DR on monster CC you can be unable to show off your great gaming skill for almost the entire duration of a fight). If you don't get this, read the earlier posts in this thread again. Thanks.


    With the right skills, playstyle and abilities that doesn't simply happen...
    Those Who Do Not Know True Pain Cannot Possibly Understand True Peace...
  • #85

    If it annoys you choose a level at which it doesnt annoy you...aka you can kill them before they annoy you. It has nothing to do with "Noob play lower mp" it has everything with noob play at a level that doesnt annoy you.


    So again, we go back to: "play in a level in which you can roflstomp elites in 5 seconds".
  • #86


    If it annoys you choose a level at which it doesnt annoy you...aka you can kill them before they annoy you. It has nothing to do with "Noob play lower mp" it has everything with noob play at a level that doesnt annoy you.


    So again, we go back to: "play in a level in which you can roflstomp elites in 5 seconds".


    So we got..

    Wah!! It takes 20 minutes to kill an elite so I get CC'd the entire fight.

    or

    Wah!! I kill elites to soon so I dont get cc'd the whole fight but I kill to quick.

    Cant find something in between?

    Hence my term balance....no guess not.
  • #87

    i just had an idea to elaborate on the topic... to those people still stuck on gear / playstyle, this is what the rest of us are talking about.

    step 1. load up diablo 3
    step 2. load up a game in any act / MP you're comfortable with
    step 3. fight an elite, then, right before you attack, unplug your mouse and keyboard
    step 4. die
    step 5. understand what we're talking about

    - Being a witch doctor? check
    - Running "some sort of cloud-build"? check
    - Havin good res and armor but low hp? check
    - Dealing no dmg b/c a "shity" dot while cc´d? check
    - Havin no lifesustain while cc´d? check

    Just except that there are some "counters"(elite affixes) for your build. Either skip those, get better gear, farm on lower mp or change your skills/playstyle. Its your own choice no one forced you into witch doctor nor "cloud build". Deal with it.
    Words of wisdom: Don't follow the advice of people who won't have to deal with the consequences.
  • #88


    i just had an idea to elaborate on the topic... to those people still stuck on gear / playstyle, this is what the rest of us are talking about.

    step 1. load up diablo 3
    step 2. load up a game in any act / MP you're comfortable with
    step 3. fight an elite, then, right before you attack, unplug your mouse and keyboard
    step 4. die
    step 5. understand what we're talking about

    - Being a witch doctor? check
    - Running "some sort of cloud-build"? check
    - Havin good res and armor but low hp? check
    - Dealing no dmg b/c a "shity" dot while cc´d? check
    - Havin no lifesustain while cc´d? check

    Just except that there are some "counters"(elite affixes) for your build. Either skip those, get better gear, farm on lower mp or change your skills/playstyle. Its your own choice no one forced you into witch doctor nor "cloud build". Deal with it.


    i have very little issue in MP10. this isn't a complaining i die in MP10 thread. this is an issue with the frequency in the casting of unavoidable CC affixes. (at least that's what my main point is)

    -didn't read the thread. -check
    -spewing nonsense irrelevent. -check
    -"excepting" - check
    -gear / playstyle (once again) irrelevent. -check
    -clearly didn't understand the post. -check
    WD - mostly other chars are toilet... my pride and joy ;D http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/SirBoneselot-1182/hero/1672627
  • #89

    i have very little issue in MP10. this isn't a complaining i die in MP10 thread. this is an issue with the frequency in the casting of unavoidable CC affixes. (at least that's what my main point is)

    I wrote it once and do it again. This is NOT an issue of an affix or combination of them. Its related to certain classes/builds. Or care to explain why no barb, monk, dh, cm wiz or what so ever complains about it? As a batdoc you mostly cant deal dmg while cc´d and so it takes you "ages" to kill things which tend to annoy you. Others dont feel the same. Either they play a different class, another build or just deal more dmg so mobs die quicker and wont annoy em.
    Words of wisdom: Don't follow the advice of people who won't have to deal with the consequences.
  • #90

    They made pre indicators for mortar, frozen and molten explotion, so they should be able to do it for vortex, jailer and waller too.


    Yes plz. Imo they should remove the text under the champs and elites! There should be enough visual indications of what they are throwing at you and when. One can dream.


    ...
    Picture a reasonably geared character. He can run around and 1-shot white mobs. Most elite packs and bosses are a cake walk. His EHP and DPS are both a good match (if not even a bit too high) for the MP level.

    But then, all of the sudden, there's a mob around the corner that you couldn't possible see; puts you into jail, just before you get out you see the frozen cast animation, followed by a fear and while doing all of that you're standing (or being feared around) in their desecrator/plague/mortar or whatever damage affix, plus their regular attacks (and picture said mob being champion wasps in act 2). Were you undergeared? No. Was the MP too high? No. Was death inevitable? Yes. And it was not the player's fault, it's just the game design not letting you do anything against this.
    ...


    Good to see people explaining it in simple terms for the non-HC crowd ^^

    But luckily there is a fix for it, without breaking the game:


    It's useless if every CC is treated individually. Fear, jail, frozen, only gives you a second to breath (in which you might be trapped insights walls) before it starts again with fear.

    Diminishing returns on CC effects need to apply to ALL CC effects, not just each of them individually. The 6 seconds fear immunity is almost worthless as on Inferno there are 3 other abilities that monsters will cast before they fear you again.


    CCs need to have diminishing returns (CCs not damage affixes, like stacking moltens and plauges). Cause if you are completly over geared even playing on mp0 with your 10000000000000000000000000000000000000k dps/ehp char you CAN get PERMENENTLY CCed... it's VERY unlikely to happen, but it can ^^

    Now they DID give us some skills to break CC which is GREAT ^^ Problem is that even with all the skills there are, only 1 class could in theory avoid all CCs and it would require 2 skills slots (barb, wotb + leap for waller).

    I also only play HC, and if there was one skill I would love to be able to "unlock" for all classes it would be Spirit Walk. Cause it's just the best CC breaker (imo) which can avoid everything 'cept waller (which I fear like the plauge ^^). If there was a second skill I could give to any class it would be leap/teleport or similar that can get over walls ^^

    Staggering Frozen, double vortext/jailer packs are the things that have given me a lot of exiting times in this game, so I don't wish to remove them, but if you are overgeared it should make even these packs easy. Diminishing returns fixes this.

    On a side note, all my chars (at least the ones I didn't just fool around with) have died from either Belial or me being drunk and fooling around (one a combo of both ^^).
    Winter is coming...
  • #91



    If it annoys you choose a level at which it doesnt annoy you...aka you can kill them before they annoy you. It has nothing to do with "Noob play lower mp" it has everything with noob play at a level that doesnt annoy you.


    So again, we go back to: "play in a level in which you can roflstomp elites in 5 seconds".


    So we got..

    Wah!! It takes 20 minutes to kill an elite so I get CC'd the entire fight.

    or

    Wah!! I kill elites to soon so I dont get cc'd the whole fight but I kill to quick.

    Cant find something in between?

    Hence my term balance....no guess not.


    So we're resorting to pointing out both extremes that nobody is a proponent for while ignoring the arguments that are actually being used to address that which is actually being discussed.

    5 seconds = too short
    20 minutes = too long (I know you're being hyperbolic, but the sentiment stands)

    hmmm... here's a thought? maybe we're discussing playing in the MP where elites take anywhere from 30 seconds to 2 minutes and you rarely die because your resistances, HP, and skills are sustainable in most circumstances as long as you make no glaring mistakes; yet on the off chance still die unfairly to bad game mechanics in the form of undodgeable chainable affixes that you can't do anything about and that don't offer an engaging worthwhile combat experience, but an annoying one that leaves you helplessly frustrated solely because certain affixes are poorly designed and poorly implemented.

    That seems about right. Let's address that issue not the straw man you keep putting forth.

    To belabor this point, for effect, by chaining this undodgeable argument while your fallacy is on cooldown: because these affixes are annoyingly undodgeable and infinitely chainable which offers no intrinsic value to real engaging combat. NOTHING TO DO WITH DIFFICULTY, EVERYTHING TO DO WITH BAD DESIGN.

    I could be ROFLSTOMPING with a 4 bazillion EHP wizard in Nightmare difficulty and if I get chained with jailer, frozen, jailer, frozen while the monsters tickled me for 2 damage a piece and could do nothing to stop that it is still bad game design.

    If your argument to counter avoiding poorly designed affixes that aren't dodgeable and can be chained is to turn the MP down so no matter how absurd the affixes instantly and unavoidably debilitate you, and proceed to chain, you still can't possibly lose or on the other hand you kill the elites so fast they can't even start using those affixes, than you're not making a solid case for yourself. That's a solution that makes the combat less engaging, not more.
  • #92
    I wrote it once and do it again. This is NOT an issue of an affix or combination of them. Its related to certain classes/builds. Or care to explain why no barb, monk, dh, cm wiz or what so ever complains about it? As a batdoc you mostly cant deal dmg while cc´d and so it takes you "ages" to kill things which tend to annoy you. Others dont feel the same. Either they play a different class, another build or just deal more dmg so mobs die quicker and wont annoy em.


    oh, but it is. without these issues, this thread wouldn't exist. sure, certain class / builds have a more difficult time dealing with these situations. that too is part of the reason the thread exists. it doesn't make those builds wrong. this is what you fail to see. understand that i'm not complaining. i'm simply pointing out that staggered CCs add an annoyance to the game.

    barbs - rarely ever have builds in which they don't have WoTB up 99% of the time, eliminates concern for CCs. 30% damage reduction off the bat.

    monk - most builds are based on cyclone / FoT, along with serenity. they are also dex based, causing them to dodge more, making CCs less of a threat. higher end monks could also use exploding palm, and have heavy DPS causing them to burn through elites faster than any other class. 30% damage reduction off the bat.

    DH - ranged class, rarely played as up close and person characters. ranged = CCs less of a threat, and vaulting is more or less a 1 cast, no hassle in terms of dodging anything. they are also dex based, causing them to dodge more, making CCs less of a threat.

    CM wiz (since this is the specific wiz you're talking about) - CC mobs and elites 95% of the time. this eliminates majority of all threats. wizzes also have teleport, and sometimes use this ability to zap out of harms way.

    WD - spirit walk, SICK. pets can help take aggro (unless they're not used) while CC'd. the only damaging spells require you to be close to your target, you can see the issue here with fleeing monsters, knockback, nightmarish. can fear if need be, helps clear the way out if all else fails.(effective)

    as you can see the WD gets the short end of the stick, but i don't have a horrible time playing it, because it's the most fun because it's the most challenging. they can deal damage while CC'd, if they use locusts. but locusts doesn't do, say, the same damage as rend. so it's hard to compare classes because certain classes just do more damage overall with certain skills. that also isn't a player error in terms of gear / gameplay. that's how the game was programed. my build i've found is the easiest for me to use in MP10 as a WD. it doesn't take me ages to kill anything. damn you knockback!
    WD - mostly other chars are toilet... my pride and joy ;D http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/SirBoneselot-1182/hero/1672627
  • #93

    That seems about right. Let's address that issue not the straw man you keep putting forth.


    To be perfectly honest this thread is predicated on strawmen like "I'm CCd 90% of the time" and "I run around fighting an elite for 13 minutes." If people want to have an actual discussion then the thesis shouldn't be based in such obvious hyperbole.

    For the record "lower the MP" doesn't equate to saying "fight where you can kill elites in 5 seconds" either. But any time it's suggested that if you're fighting an elite for "13 minutes" that you might want to tone down the Monster Power it's immediately rebutted with "FUCK MAN I DON'T WANT TO PUT IT ON 5-SECOND ELITE KILL MODE."

    It's like two children with fingers in their ears yelling at each other at the top of their lungs but never hearing a goddamned thing that the other person is saying.

    "Play at a lower MP" doesn't mean "Turn it to MP1 even though you have 300k DPS." The people who keep going down THAT road are the ones who are really making the strawmen because that's clearly not what anyone is saying.

    There is a middle ground between claiming you run around fighting elites for "13 minutes" and killing them in "5 seconds" and the suggestion that one might consider turning down the MP doesn't mean that the poster feels that they should set it to "faceroll mode." It's pretty clear that no one who has read that understands that one bit.

    There are MPs between 10 and 0.
    66.0k elite kills :: 1.97m total kills :: p244
    Planet Express <PlanEx>
    (V) (°,,°) (V)
  • #94
    Lowering the MP cheapens the combat experience though when you otherwise wouldn't need to. You clear the content quickly and rarely die, but let's lower the MP because of some bad game design instead of actually addressing the problem.

    That's my real gripe with the whole thing.

    If anyone wants to argue that it's NOT bad game design, then that would be an argument worth having. But just pretending like it's not a real problem and that lowering the MP is the real solution (when you otherwise mow that MP down within a reasonable time with no hitches), I won't have any of that.
  • #95

    oh, but it is. without these issues, this thread wouldn't exist. sure, certain class / builds have a more difficult time dealing with these situations. that too is part of the reason the thread exists. it doesn't make those builds wrong. this is what you fail to see. understand that i'm not complaining. i'm simply pointing out that staggered CCs add an annoyance to the game.

    barbs - rarely ever have builds in which they don't have WoTB up 99% of the time, eliminates concern for CCs. 30% damage reduction off the bat.

    monk - most builds are based on cyclone / FoT, along with serenity. they are also dex based, causing them to dodge more, making CCs less of a threat. higher end monks could also use exploding palm, and have heavy DPS causing them to burn through elites faster than any other class. 30% damage reduction off the bat.

    DH - ranged class, rarely played as up close and person characters. ranged = CCs less of a threat, and vaulting is more or less a 1 cast, no hassle in terms of dodging anything. they are also dex based, causing them to dodge more, making CCs less of a threat.

    CM wiz (since this is the specific wiz you're talking about) - CC mobs and elites 95% of the time. this eliminates majority of all threats. wizzes also have teleport, and sometimes use this ability to zap out of harms way.

    WD - spirit walk, SICK. pets can help take aggro (unless they're not used) while CC'd. the only damaging spells require you to be close to your target, you can see the issue here with fleeing monsters, knockback, nightmarish. can fear if need be, helps clear the way out if all else fails.(effective)

    as you can see the WD gets the short end of the stick, but i don't have a horrible time playing it, because it's the most fun because it's the most challenging. they can deal damage while CC'd, if they use locusts. but locusts doesn't do, say, the same damage as rend. so it's hard to compare classes because certain classes just do more damage overall with certain skills. that also isn't a player error in terms of gear / gameplay. that's how the game was programed. my build i've found is the easiest for me to use in MP10 as a WD. it doesn't take me ages to kill anything. damn you knockback!

    Im with you. WD needs some love. ;) A decent geared wd deals like 15k with locust each tick? Even with perfect ls on skorn and 10 mobs around you its just not enough to keep up the lifesustain needed to survive a strong "cc chain" when facing "hard hitter packs" nor give you a decent kill speed compared to other affix combinations. I know some wds blowing up even mp10 packs within a few sec but their gear is clearly way above avg. and worth a shitload.

    Thats way i said its not related to the affix(combination) and more about some sort of class balance and/or the gear you own. As a monk im not using serenity nor near death exp. or pacifism. I rely purely on dps which is high enough to blow up any type of elite/champ pretty quickly but my gear is imo above avg. as well.
    Words of wisdom: Don't follow the advice of people who won't have to deal with the consequences.
  • #96


    That seems about right. Let's address that issue not the straw man you keep putting forth.


    To be perfectly honest this thread is predicated on strawmen like "I'm CCd 90% of the time" and "I run around fighting an elite for 13 minutes." If people want to have an actual discussion then the thesis shouldn't be based in such obvious hyperbole.

    For the record "lower the MP" doesn't equate to saying "fight where you can kill elites in 5 seconds" either. But any time it's suggested that if you're fighting an elite for "13 minutes" that you might want to tone down the Monster Power it's immediately rebutted with "FUCK MAN I DON'T WANT TO PUT IT ON 5-SECOND ELITE KILL MODE."

    It's like two children with fingers in their ears yelling at each other at the top of their lungs but never hearing a goddamned thing that the other person is saying.

    "Play at a lower MP" doesn't mean "Turn it to MP1 even though you have 300k DPS." The people who keep going down THAT road are the ones who are really making the strawmen because that's clearly not what anyone is saying.

    There is a middle ground between claiming you run around fighting elites for "13 minutes" and killing them in "5 seconds" and the suggestion that one might consider turning down the MP doesn't mean that the poster feels that they should set it to "faceroll mode." It's pretty clear that no one who has read that understands that one bit.

    There are MPs between 10 and 0.


    So much this, thanks for bringing some fresh perspective in.
    Those Who Do Not Know True Pain Cannot Possibly Understand True Peace...
  • #97

    Lowering the MP cheapens the combat experience though when you otherwise wouldn't need to. You clear the content quickly and rarely die, but let's lower the MP because of some bad game design instead of actually addressing the problem.

    That's my real gripe with the whole thing.

    If anyone wants to argue that it's NOT bad game design, then that would be an argument worth having. But just pretending like it's not a real problem and that lowering the MP is the real solution (when you otherwise mow that MP down within a reasonable time with no hitches), I won't have any of that.

    See it this way:

    Its like "rock paper scissors". Sometimes you (bcuz of your skillbuild/gear/what ever) are the "scissors" and the elites are "paper". How ever on some affix combos things turning around and you are "paper" and the elites are "scissors". To deal with it you either need to change your skillbuild, lower the mp(to kill quicker), adept and change your playstyle or what so ever. Elites are supposed to give you sometimes a hard time. Thats part of the game. I know its no fun running around and beginnin fear´d. It sucks when a mob stands inside of multiple stacked poison pools. Its part of the challenge to overcome and beat it. Even if it takes more time, dying once or twice on a pack. Its up to you to change your spec, have an easier kill but in trade losing the nv stacks.

    Just complain some affixes giving you a hard time is imo wrong. Once every while you get a pack with strong cc affixes but thats like 1 outta 10?
    Words of wisdom: Don't follow the advice of people who won't have to deal with the consequences.
  • #98


    Lowering the MP cheapens the combat experience though when you otherwise wouldn't need to. You clear the content quickly and rarely die, but let's lower the MP because of some bad game design instead of actually addressing the problem.

    That's my real gripe with the whole thing.

    If anyone wants to argue that it's NOT bad game design, then that would be an argument worth having. But just pretending like it's not a real problem and that lowering the MP is the real solution (when you otherwise mow that MP down within a reasonable time with no hitches), I won't have any of that.

    See it this way:

    Its like "rock paper scissors". Sometimes you (bcuz of your skillbuild/gear/what ever) are the "scissors" and the elites are "paper". How ever on some affix combos things turning around and you are "paper" and the elites are "scissors". To deal with it you either need to change your skillbuild, lower the mp(to kill quicker), adept and change your playstyle or what so ever. Elites are supposed to give you sometimes a hard time. Thats part of the game. I know its no fun running around and beginnin fear´d. It sucks when a mob stands inside of multiple stacked poison pools. Its part of the challenge to overcome and beat it. Even if it takes more time, dying once or twice on a pack. Its up to you to change your spec, have an easier kill but in trade losing the nv stacks.

    Just complain some affixes giving you a hard time is imo wrong. Once every while you get a pack with strong cc affixes but thats like 1 outta 10?


    You can have all that without undodgeable chainable affixes.
  • #99

    You can have all that without undodgeable chainable affixes.

    No bcuz most affixes are way to easy even on highest mp for some classes/skillbuilds when you reach a decent level of gearing. They introduced monsterpower level for a reason. And for some people even mp10 do not provide a challenge anymore. Its just a small setback in killspeed and thats it. You are asking for an easier way for "mid geared people" and/or some classes/skillbuilds and blizzard answered this with monsterpower level.
    Words of wisdom: Don't follow the advice of people who won't have to deal with the consequences.
  • #100
    It's a broken game mechanic when you get caught in a million CC effects chained one after the another. I don't care how pro or badass you think you are... Stop lying it happens to everyone and it's fucking broken.

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