CC immunity and unavoidable monster abilites

  • #41
    Quote from itirnitii

    My archon wiz is pretty strong, I can maintain archon in MP7+ with no problems really. [ http://www.diablopro...9/ignus/1170726 ] 400k DPS // 500k EHP unbuffed. But, I can still die in MP3, without any chance of surviving, if the right undodgeable affixes are there. That is definitely annoying and not good game design. Every affix should be avoidable in my opinion.

    I find it funny that people seem to think that every one will just go glass cannon if that is done. As if just because every affix is dodgeable I will dodge them all like a boss all day every day without any hitches. Even the affixes that ARE dodgeable, I still make mistakes, I still find myself having to walk through an archon beam or missing the tiny window of space that frozen offers at times (sometimes it has an archon beam right on it). Get over yourself, nobody is a godly player that can avoid everything all the time, you're still going to have to have some padding on your character.

    I also agree that archon and WOTB should have a max uptime that is lower than the skills cooldown. Why even be a wizard, I might as well just be archon class. I also think CM/WW needs fixing. Nerf those builds and bring everything else up in line. I'm frustrated that if I want to try any other build other than archon or cm/ww I just feel stupid for gimping myself and even bothering.


    This. Exactly this.
  • #42
    After all these replies, I'm still up on the fence (:P) on whether we should have dodgeable/identifiable monster abilities (Jailer, Nightmarish, Vortex).

    On one side, I'm happy they have a nice balance between avoidable stuff and unavoidable stuff. And as I said it makes you weight whether you want the "get out of jail" card on your build. You still get complaints every now and then that Diablo 3 is all about doding "ground" stuff, so I doubt they wanna have all monster abilities to have such mechanic.

    On the other side, I definitely feel the pain (particularly for random Vortex and Fears/Knockbacks) some of you guys are referring to. Mortar was easy to change because it was really hard to tell whether it was targetting you or the other player behind you (and where the shells were going to fall), but the others are a much tougher decision.

    I'm sure this is a tough situation for the developers too.

    I'm still more inclined to not having warnings (ground) for these abilities, as having some affixes work like this has in fact made elite fights a lot more interesting to me throughout my playtime.
  • #43
    Absolutely agree with OP on everything mentioned.

    Now, I dont have a problem with difficult affixes, making players dodge and weave obstacles etc, but to be knocked back, and feared seemingly endlessly it becomes infuriating. They repeatedly use knock back, WAY too much, same with nightmarish, and the fact that an electrical/nightmarish affixed mob can cause fear off the electricity is daft.

    Please by all means test the players skill, but not their patience.
  • #44
    Quote from Bagstone

    Quote from itirnitii

    My archon wiz is pretty strong, I can maintain archon in MP7+ with no problems really. [ http://www.diablopro...9/ignus/1170726 ] 400k DPS // 500k EHP unbuffed. But, I can still die in MP3, without any chance of surviving, if the right undodgeable affixes are there. That is definitely annoying and not good game design. Every affix should be avoidable in my opinion.

    I find it funny that people seem to think that every one will just go glass cannon if that is done. As if just because every affix is dodgeable I will dodge them all like a boss all day every day without any hitches. Even the affixes that ARE dodgeable, I still make mistakes, I still find myself having to walk through an archon beam or missing the tiny window of space that frozen offers at times (sometimes it has an archon beam right on it). Get over yourself, nobody is a godly player that can avoid everything all the time, you're still going to have to have some padding on your character.

    I also agree that archon and WOTB should have a max uptime that is lower than the skills cooldown. Why even be a wizard, I might as well just be archon class. I also think CM/WW needs fixing. Nerf those builds and bring everything else up in line. I'm frustrated that if I want to try any other build other than archon or cm/ww I just feel stupid for gimping myself and even bothering.


    This. Exactly this.

    The main reason is:

    Alot of classes/builds dont have any lifesustaining while "cc´d". That makes it alot harder to deal with this affixes.

    F.E. as a monk i give a flying fuk about frozen, fear or what so ever. My cyclones deal enough dmg to keep me alive with lifesteal on both weapons. Its more a flaw of class balance imo. Even more since i got 30% dmg reduction for free.

    Playing my cm its even more retarded. Most of the time elites/champs are perma frozen. With shielding+cc affix i still dont have any troubles bcuz my ww´s keep me alive.

    On the other hand a batdoc, archon wiz or what ever is screw´d. So i can understand that its pretty annoying to deal with "chain cc" but like i said its more related to classes/builds then to certain affixes.
    Words of wisdom: Don't follow the advice of people who won't have to deal with the consequences.
  • #45
    I find Frozen to be really broken even if "you can avoid it". When it's used inside small dungeons you are simply fucked.

    Jailer should spawn a small circle on the ground and if you stay inside it for a few seconds only then you will get jailed.

    All of the CC abilities should be reduced i.e giving them a higher cooldown making them happen less frequently. Atleast give enough time for skills like leap / spirit walk to recharge before the next CC happens. Or time the CD right so that you always have like a few seconds where you are out of CD on your escape abilities.

    Frozen spawns too often and when you are inside a small area like a cave or something, you just can't dodge it its ridiculous... And it's not only the case with CC's but also with dots like plagued, it simply covers the whole area which makes it really stupid... Wanna fight these champs? have a constant dot you cannot evade! yeepey!

    Plagued should stay on the ground for shorter periods.

    Frozen should spawn less often.

    All of those abilities should happen less frequently.... Double / triple freeze should never happen.

    And they should give us a grace period on CC's. If you get feared, you cannot get feared for 3 seconds or so.


    after all of these changes are implemented, they can increase the monsters' hit damage.

  • #46
    Quote from Jamoose
    And it's not only the case with CC's but also with dots like plagued, it simply covers the whole area which makes it really stupid... Wanna fight these champs? have a constant dot you cannot evade! yeepey!

    Plagued should stay on the ground for shorter periods.


    I don't agree with this. Maybe they could make the pool bigger but just put one down per mob at a time (sortof like Desecrate) while still having same duration. You'd still have to avoid it, but not nearly as much.

    Quote from Jamoose

    And they should give us a grace period on CC's. If you get feared, you cannot get feared for 3 seconds or so.


    They already do this. It was added in 1.0.3 or 4 I think. If you're feared, you can't get feared for 5 seconds I think. It was because in early days you'd literally get spam feared if you were anywhere near melee.
    And may the odds be ever in your favour.
    Emmo#2406
  • #47
    Quote from Emmo

    Quote from Jamoose
    And it's not only the case with CC's but also with dots like plagued, it simply covers the whole area which makes it really stupid... Wanna fight these champs? have a constant dot you cannot evade! yeepey!

    Plagued should stay on the ground for shorter periods.


    I don't agree with this. Maybe they could make the pool bigger but just put one down per mob at a time (sortof like Desecrate) while still having same duration. You'd still have to avoid it, but not nearly as much.

    Quote from Jamoose

    And they should give us a grace period on CC's. If you get feared, you cannot get feared for 3 seconds or so.


    They already do this. It was added in 1.0.3 or 4 I think. If you're feared, you can't get feared for 5 seconds I think. It was because in early days you'd literally get spam feared if you were anywhere near melee.


    Plagued covers an antire screen if you are fighting inside a dungeon. totally retarded imo, it stays for too long it's simply a constant dot.

    And the grace period on fear is what like half a second? i don't know but it's clearly not enough in my opnion. And there is no grace period on freeze... ever got double - triple frozen on mp 10? no matter how much mitigation you have, you will die...

  • #48
    Quote from Jamoose
    Plagued covers an antire screen if you are fighting inside a dungeon. totally retarded imo, it stays for too long it's simply a constant dot.

    And the grace period on fear is what like half a second? i don't know but it's clearly not enough in my opnion. And there is no grace period on freeze... ever got double - triple frozen on mp 10? no matter how much mitigation you have, you will die...


    Well, that's what I mean. Instead if they just put down 1 pool per mob, and made it a little bigger to compensate with same duration, it'd still be better than the 50 they normally put down. You'd still struggle in enclosed spaces, but I think that's their point, to make enclosed spaces a little tougher.

    And it's actually 6 seconds fear immunity which I think is fair enough.
    • Nightmarish monsters will now make players immune to Fear for 6 seconds after the Fear is cast on the player

    1.0.4 notes: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/blog/7029347/patch-104-now-live-8-21-2012
    And may the odds be ever in your favour.
    Emmo#2406
  • #49
    Quote from Emmo

    • Nightmarish monsters will now make players immune to Fear for 6 seconds after the Fear is cast on the player

    1.0.4 notes: http://us.battle.net...-live-8-21-2012


    It's useless if every CC is treated individually. Fear, jail, frozen, only gives you a second to breath (in which you might be trapped insights walls) before it starts again with fear.

    Diminishing returns on CC effects need to apply to ALL CC effects, not just each of them individually. The 6 seconds fear immunity is almost worthless as on Inferno there are 3 other abilities that monsters will cast before they fear you again.
  • #50
    Quote from itirnitii

    But, I can still die in MP3, without any chance of surviving, if the right undodgeable affixes are there. That is definitely annoying and not good game design. Every affix should be avoidable in my opinion.

    I find it funny that people seem to think that every one will just go glass cannon if that is done.
    As if just because every affix is dodgeable I will dodge them all like a boss all day every day without any hitches.


    bold: yes,
    italics: no

    I stand by my opinion that the game needs unavoidable damage. Otherwise items as a whole might become trivial/redundant (think about it, please). And they're supposed to be the core of this game, this is no fps.

    Unavoidable death is bad game design, yes, but: only if you're "ready" for the MP in question. Unavoidable death because of being undergeared is actually necessary, see my first sentence.

    I personally would go as far as to state that dying is an integral part of the Diablo franchise. It's the "Stop"-sign that tells you: you've come to far, get more gear before you come back. Doesn't apply to hc, I fear ;)

    On that hc quote of mine about logging out in case of lethal danger:
    Isn't that how you save your character's life on a regular basis? I really despise the hc gaming style that is based around killing only stuff that is waaaay too easy just to ensure, you'll never be in danger. Would you cheer for Mike Tyson, if he had a 100-0 record but never even faced a grown man in the ring?
    And if you don't play like that, you will face enemies that you can't beat just yet, period. In that case, the way of the coward should be fine, right?
    I apologize for any formating issues in my posts, I just can't use the new editor.Currently playing Magic 2014, see my thread:http://www.diablofans.com/topic/97565-magic-2014/
    Also, if you like Classics, try:Dungeons and Dragons Anthology ( http://www.gamersgat...ster-collection )
  • #51
    Quote from Solmyr77

    In that case, the way of the coward should be fine, right?


    :Thumbs Up:


    I just wanna say that Electrified + Nightmarish is the most retarded thing ever.
    Elites has diminishing returns on CC; why can't we?
  • #52
    Quote from Bagstone

    Quote from Emmo

    • Nightmarish monsters will now make players immune to Fear for 6 seconds after the Fear is cast on the player

    1.0.4 notes: http://us.battle.net...-live-8-21-2012


    It's useless if every CC is treated individually. Fear, jail, frozen, only gives you a second to breath (in which you might be trapped insights walls) before it starts again with fear.

    Diminishing returns on CC effects need to apply to ALL CC effects, not just each of them individually. The 6 seconds fear immunity is almost worthless as on Inferno there are 3 other abilities that monsters will cast before they fear you again.


    Agreed.

  • #53
    Quote from Solmyr77

    On that hc quote of mine about logging out in case of lethal danger:
    Isn't that how you save your character's life on a regular basis? I really despise the hc gaming style that is based around killing only stuff that is waaaay too easy just to ensure, you'll never be in danger.


    That's exactly the point.

    Picture a reasonably geared character. He can run around and 1-shot white mobs. Most elite packs and bosses are a cake walk. His EHP and DPS are both a good match (if not even a bit too high) for the MP level.

    But then, all of the sudden, there's a mob around the corner that you couldn't possible see; puts you into jail, just before you get out you see the frozen cast animation, followed by a fear and while doing all of that you're standing (or being feared around) in their desecrator/plague/mortar or whatever damage affix, plus their regular attacks (and picture said mob being champion wasps in act 2). Were you undergeared? No. Was the MP too high? No. Was death inevitable? Yes. And it was not the player's fault, it's just the game design not letting you do anything against this.

    Two more examples:
    The other day we were running MP7 with our 3 undergeared monk twinks. We hit 3 (!) elite packs in Silver Spire 2 on one spot. None of them had any CC affixes - which means they were all equipped to the teeth in damage abilities (plague, arcane, mortar, desecrator, molten, reflect damage, shielding, you name it). As you can imagine, it was quite a tough fight. We died a couple of times and it took some time to beat them, but it was hilarious and lots of fun. After that run we decided to repeat this. Restart, Silver Spire 2, pulled some elite packs together... turned out they had CC abilities. We didn't even die as often as in the previous fight, but we just couldn't do anything. 80% of the time our buttons were blocked because we were caught in some stupid CC. And I dare you to mention Serenity - it doesn't work if you're already *in* CC, and if you try to come up with a perfect rotation including Tranquility rune you're still fucked 55% of the time.

    Again, we need 1) more CC BREAKING abilities (not preemptive but a "wtf" button) that gives us control about the fight; 2) DR on all CC abilities and not separate timers for each CC.
  • #54
    Quote from Bagstone

    Were you undergeared? No. Was the MP too high? No. Was death inevitable? Yes. And it was not the player's fault, it's just the game design not letting you do anything against this.
    [...]
    Again, we need 1) more CC BREAKING abilities (not preemptive but a "wtf" button) that gives us control about the fight; 2) DR on all CC abilities and not separate timers for each CC.


    I think, we agree.
    But please don't tune down the game even further because of such combo-monsters.

    I apologize, if my memory of Serenity was wrong. I thought, a Monk friend of mine could get out of Hex with it, when we tested the pvp function. I agree that we need buttons that do just that.

    Have you played DAoC by chance? That CC-system was amazing, so much better than WoW's..
    I apologize for any formating issues in my posts, I just can't use the new editor.Currently playing Magic 2014, see my thread:http://www.diablofans.com/topic/97565-magic-2014/
    Also, if you like Classics, try:Dungeons and Dragons Anthology ( http://www.gamersgat...ster-collection )
  • #55
    I had an old suggestion that included making all travel skills resource dependant and not based on cooldowns. I still think it would be a good way to allow players to have more control over their characters and ways to avoid CC. You'd still have to think about when to use said skills since you can run out of your resource pretty fast...

    So for the barb, leap and charge should be fury spenders and not generators. It should function like the DH's vault and SS...

    And @Solmyr77: fixing CC does not mean the game will be tuned down. They can still buff other things like monster raw damage, etc...

  • #56
    Quote from Solmyr77

    But please don't tune down the game even further because of such combo-monsters.


    Well, I wouldn't mind some tuning. Like you said, it's just ridiculous if 99% of the time you have to fight monsters that can't even survive a single hit of your auto attack, just to be prepared for this one nasty elite pack that might have a killer combo. The damage/HP gap between 90% of mobs in the game and the few badass elite packs that will eat you alive is just too large if you take CC into account that you are supposed to be prepared for.
  • #57
    Quote from Jamoose

    @Solmyr77: fixing CC does not mean the game will be tuned down. They can still buff other things like monster raw damage, etc...


    Not necessarily, but I want players to be aware that the issue at hand can't just be fixed that easily. It will take time, a shortminded fix would be detrimental.
    I apologize for any formating issues in my posts, I just can't use the new editor.Currently playing Magic 2014, see my thread:http://www.diablofans.com/topic/97565-magic-2014/
    Also, if you like Classics, try:Dungeons and Dragons Anthology ( http://www.gamersgat...ster-collection )
  • #58
    Hey people, "just imagine" your gear and skill build as slider between your surviveability and damage output.

    When you have enough surviveability, you can ignore all damage and CC abilities, same as if you have gazillion dps, you can ignore affixes (except reflect damage - if you are undergeared) too, as you kill elites faster, then they could do something.

    And MP setting is just for people who already outgear lower difficulties, so when you have enough dps to one shot elites even in glass cannon build, then you better increase MP by point or two to get at least some feeling of threat.

    I play only HC, and i never died to chain frozen or such. What always killed me are disconects and undergearing some MP. Yes of course i am afraid every time i encounter frozen-vortex, but i play prepared for this. Got for this diamond skin and teleport always on my skill bar - and yes i am missing some buff/debuff/dps skill because of that, but I am surviving everything including 4 party champions frozen/vortex/shielding/jailer.

    Yes i was once slain by this combination once, but i was really undergeared for that MP1. That said, please do not try to make this thread sound like "OMFG UNAVOIDABLE CC - NERF PLEASE" as I get that impressions when i read this thread. If you go high MP, then take the risk, or play safer, or lower MP, if you cant handle all affixes game is offering to you!
  • #59
    It just doesn't make sense how these demons have no timers or resource to use these abilities... another issue I have is plagued and desecrator can stack, but say acid cloud acid can't stack, and most of the skills players have don't... at least balance that... plagued wouldn't be as deadly if the damage didn't stack like that... they just have no limit to casting these abilities, but nephalem, who are supposidly more powerful, have limits in using their abilities...
    WD - mostly other chars are toilet... my pride and joy ;D http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/SirBoneselot-1182/hero/1672627
  • #60
    @toyen: What you're saying basically boils down to "Play only on an MP where you can roflstomp elites". Sorry, man, but that's boring. I like being at risk of dying. This thread is not about not wanting to ever die. Re-read the posts if that's not clear to you.
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