CC immunity and unavoidable monster abilites

  • #1
    I'll post a fair warning here that reading this may slightly mar your Diablo 3 experience, as it has mine. I read a post by Grimuku on the official forums a while back now, when a potential nerf to permanent WotB or Archon was considered. Since I've read that post, encountering these issues has annoyed me more each time I die to them.

    The suggestion was that these skills are not the issue, but the mechanics that force people to feel they need them. For the moment, forget about any damage or defense boost. The topic is CC immunity.

    A apologise for not being able to provide a link to Grimuku's original post, I searched but couldn't find it. I'll paraphrase the main points I remember, as since playing self found I've noticed myself getting increasingly more irritated by the same things.

    The problem is that some of the CC is unavoidable and can easily result in death. Elite/champ skills like frozen, arcane, plagued or desecrater are up to the player to avoid. Whereas jailer, vortex, nightmarish and knockback can never be avoided with player skill or awareness. They happen, and you're stuck with it.

    As a slight disclaimer, I'm aware you can vault/leap/spirit walk etc. out of jailer and use damage reducing cooldowns during nightmare, but that's not the point and I'll get to that later. It's the fact, you can't avoid them through skill like you would do the arcane dance to the Mission Impossible theme.

    The fact there are certain enemy skills that are not player avoidable is part of the reason skills like WotB or Archon are so heavily used. Even if it's not, you're still forced to use a skill like vault/leap/spirit walk to avoid what you can or pick a damage reducing cooldown. Often, the cooldowns on these abilities is also far too long compared to how often the monsters can fire the abilities that cause so much grief. It's even worse when something like vortex pulls you back into an arcane maze with frozen that you had just escaped and you die. Infuriating doesn't put it strong enough.

    Grimuku came up with the suggestion that skills like jailer should have a graphic on the floor for several seconds before trapping anyone still in it. Same with vortex, a delay of a few seconds with a graphical warning and then activate. It gives the player a chance.

    I mention this now because I've been playing self found a lot recently. My gear isn't fantastic and I'm currently farming Inferno to build it up. I don't have the luxury of choosing my gear, so no character has base dps over 70k or resists over 450. Few of them even have base run speed of 12%, let alone higher. I know these are my own personal restrictions, but the unavoidable monster abilities are making the game harder for me characters than it should be.

    There's no player skill involved with it, it's about luck and overgearing unless you pick a few particular skills. With only 6 skill slots, picking (barb example) Ignore pain and leap just to deal with these situations I have no control over is restricting the builds I have on offer.

    I echo Grimuku's call for a change to these monster skills so that it reflects more on the player to avoid them rather than relying on gear and skills to just put up with it and try to survive.

    I've not seen any posts mirroring Grimuku's thoughts (and now my own) on this forum, and though I'd open it up for discussion.

    Note: Just noticed there's a blue poster called Grimiku on the official forums. I'd like to point out that I remember the post was in green text, by a foum MVP. Might have the name wrong, which would explain why I can't find the post :(

    Edit: It seems I got my wires crossed. The original post was referring to the constant uptime of WotB and Archon, but WotB is the only one with CC immunity. The original thread was in response to the problem of those skills being up all the time not being an issue and Blizzard contradicting themselves with statements. At one time they said it will be great when players are finally able to be geared enough for perm-Archon, then another (later) post they say that having perma-Archon was never intended and needs to be fixed.

    While some of the information in my post is inaccurate (blame dodgy memory and lack of sleep) I'll leave it unedited. The main point still stands; there are strong unavoidable monster abilities and I think they should be changed.
    "It takes a man with real heart...to make beauty out of the stuff that makes us weep." - Clive Barker
  • #2
    Are you sure it was Grimiku or some MVP? It sounds like you were looking for Travis Day's post: http://us.battle.net...88912?page=1#16

    Okay, read your post. One thing: I think it's not exactly correct to say that people use WoTB or Archon (in particular the latter) to deal with CC effects. It's just that these are powerful short-duration, long-cooldown spells that due to unforeseen game mechanics can be kept active 100% of the time. This is also what Travis clarified in his second bluepost in the thread I linked above. These skills have become mainstream (or FotM) because they're extremely powerful and cater the "efficiency" train that everyone's been jumping on since the release of D3.

    I agree though that there are too many spells/abilities in the game that are impossible for players to counter. It's not just jailer or nightmarish, the grip of Siegebreaker or Diablo's prison are equally annoying (in particular as certain skills might run out, like Sweeping Wind, and you need to re-apply them). It reminds me of the one spell in Diablo 2 that was fixed (i.e., removed) 10 years too late: Iron Maiden. You could have a crazy barbarian that would kill everything and essentially be invincible, but a single visit at Chaos Sanctuarium would lead to certain death. In particular for hardcore players this is just a no-go and it eludes me why Blizzard allows for so many spells to be an annoying interruption. I have no problem with nightmarish mobs, but if I see a ranged champion pack with nightmarish, teleporter, frozen, and jailer I sometimes just skip. You spend 90% of the time running around or waiting for jailer/nightmarish/frozen to finish its action on your character, and even though these mobs are completely harmless (none of the affixes deals any damage) it's just time-consuming and annoying. Unless these mobs start to personally offend me (by telling "yo momma" jokes or having ugly faces) I'll just leave them for other heroes to deal with them.
  • #3
    The issue isn't with the undodgeable skills, the issue is with how aggressive the elites are with them. I find myself getting screwed more and more in MP10, because they stagger their frozen, or nightmare too often, especially ranged elites. Knockback sucks because it makes you run slower, harder to dodge arcane and frozen... my issue is they use these skills too often, and some last too long, plagued for instance, is on the ground for far too long, causing there to be no safe place to stand... if anything, create a cooldown for these skills for these elites to level the playing field... if I can't use spirit walk for 12 seconds or whatever it is, make the cooldown for each cast 10 seconds.
    WD - mostly other chars are toilet... my pride and joy ;D http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/SirBoneselot-1182/hero/1672627
  • #4
    @Ashy_Larry: Oh, I love plagued. I think it's a beautiful skill and it sets off the fear I had of the lightning pack in front of Kurast Bazaar or poisoned worms in that act 2 wormhole dungeon. At least since plagued got buffed in one of the latest patches. Same with desecrator, it can be deadly; but these are fearsome monsters - they should be deadly. Mobs with 4 CC abilities aren't deadly, they're just utterly annoying.
  • #5
    You're quite the dictionary, Bagstone :)

    I think, these are two (both interesting) topics, that should be discussed separately:

    a) is infinite superman-mode ok?
    and
    B) unavoidable damage (in this case through means of CC)

    The OP wanted to talk about B), so my first 2 cents off the top of my head:

    I don't think, that's an issue. As a melee class, you take damage all the time anyway, this was a big issue a year ago, when melees couldn't really play Inferno, but no need to rant about that now.
    So the biggest impact of Vortex and stuff is on the ranged classes, which would prefer to take no damage at all and go full glass cannon. I think, that's actually a good reason to have unavoidable damage, otherwise only melees would have to get ehp, gimping their relative dps.
    I apologize for any formating issues in my posts, I just can't use the new editor.Currently playing Magic 2014, see my thread:http://www.diablofans.com/topic/97565-magic-2014/
    Also, if you like Classics, try:Dungeons and Dragons Anthology ( http://www.gamersgat...ster-collection )
  • #6
    I support this thread.
  • #7
    Quote from Solmyr77

    So the biggest impact of Vortex and stuff is on the ranged classes, which would prefer to take no damage at all and go full glass cannon. I think, that's actually a good reason to have unavoidable damage, otherwise only melees would have to get ehp, gimping their relative dps.

    Couldn't agree more, Inferno is already easy as it is for my main (Non-CM Wizard) which has some high end gear, even if we had mp20 it would not be that much difficult, it would only give more hp and dmg to mobs, not really any more "hard" encounters, i do not intend to sound like a douche, but just lower the mp dude, it's what i do with my self found alts... and as Solmyr77 so eloquently put, a ranged class would always have advantage if those "unavoidable" skills did not exist, and they are not really that unavoidable, position yourself correctly and vortex will never pull you to the arcane sentry maze/frozen fields, and those skills you do not like to use (vault/spirit walk, mirror image, etc. exist for a reason, if we didn't need them everyone would be even more clones of one another than they are now, one is supposed to use them until your gear let's you not. hell i have 300k+ dps and 1k resists and i still use teleport. xD
    Those Who Do Not Know True Pain Cannot Possibly Understand True Peace...
  • #8
    Quote from Bagstone

    Are you sure it was Grimiku or some MVP? It sounds like you were looking for Travis Day's post: http://us.battle.net...88912?page=1#16

    It reminds me of the one spell in Diablo 2 that was fixed (i.e., removed) 10 years too late: Iron Maiden.

    Nope definitely a green text post, I remember it well. Have to go out soon, but will search for it again later.

    Amusingly, I did have a D2 reference to Iron Maiden in there originally but took it out in case people bashed me for nostalgia with cries of "this isn't D2 get over it" :P I hated the days of dying mid-zeal or mid-WW and being forced to run with an off-hand tailored purely for those moments. However, I fondly remember my Buriza Fury Werewolf giggling maniacally through Chaos Sanctuary before they fixed it.


    Quote from Bagstone

    Same with desecrator, it can be deadly; but these are fearsome monsters - they should be deadly. Mobs with 4 CC abilities aren't deadly, they're just utterly annoying.


    My point exactly. I'm not afraid of hard, I just don't like annoying.


    Quote from Solmyr77

    You're quite the dictionary, Bagstone :)

    I think, these are two (both interesting) topics, that should be discussed separately:

    a) is infinite superman-mode ok?
    and
    B) unavoidable damage (in this case through means of CC)

    The OP wanted to talk about B), so my first 2 cents off the top of my head:

    I don't think, that's an issue. As a melee class, you take damage all the time anyway, this was a big issue a year ago, when melees couldn't really play Inferno, but no need to rant about that now.
    So the biggest impact of Vortex and stuff is on the ranged classes, which would prefer to take no damage at all and go full glass cannon. I think, that's actually a good reason to have unavoidable damage, otherwise only melees would have to get ehp, gimping their relative dps.


    Indeed, the topic was intended to be about unavoidable damage/monster abilities.

    I understand your point regarding melee being able to survive hits anyway and just suck it up, but as I mentioned in my original post, I'm playing self-found now, and these abilities are showing themselves to be even more annoying than they used to be. Partly because of my own restrictions leading to under-gearing but also because I'm aware of the issue.

    You make a good point regarding ranged needing unavoidable damage to avoid the DH glass cannon problem that came about before the IAS nerf (long time ago now!) Since then however, they've decided to change reflect damage from constant to pulse with an effect, making that skill a choice between take it down with life steal or time your attacks well. IMO, changing vortex etc. won't affect ranged glass cannons because they'll still be restricted by survivability. They'll have to be more aware of standing in plagued/molten or die, more on the ball to avoid every arcane beam or die. If people want to dodge and kite with a glass cannon, they should be able to, some enjoy the risk of that play style and making more abilities avoidable will open it up for more to try if they choose.
    "It takes a man with real heart...to make beauty out of the stuff that makes us weep." - Clive Barker
  • #9
    I dont want to flame or anything, but i just created account to wirte something about unavoidable CC - well TBH it made me quite furious, just that words combination "unavoidable CC" - rofl.

    Well it is not unavoidable at all, you just have to learn how to play against certain affixes ... that is all.

    You have whole range of different gear, so if you cant avoid effectively CC, then put on some more EHP and just "eat" it and learn how you can avoid this.

    I dont know how it feel othes, but if you will put longer CD on casts for elites, then they will just stand there and give away their loot without beign threat at all.

    For ex. - did you know that sequence of casts (shield, frozen, arcane and such) is influenced by affix position in elites position rows? I learned it few days ago, when i noticed that most dangerous elites are those, who have "----","----","frozen","vortex", as the will put down frozen and after that they will use vortex. If it is champion, then you have to think about what to do first.

    I play HC only, and thus far with my barb friend we can do safely MP4 farming and MP3 Ubers. When we get better gear well do higher MPs. Only two factors are holding us back: my low EHP as I am dps, and my friends dps as he is tank

    This was to UNAVOIDABLE affixes - if you are not aware with what elite pack are you fighting, then you deserve to die, this is Diablo.

    To the original CC immunity. Well it is somthing to discuss, because that is just holding back other classes (speaking about babas WotB) as he can afford to be in fight and others have to dodge. I dont know how, but it should be removed, or at least limited - make the rule so each negated CC effect takes one second from your counter of WotB, so if you are good, i mean REALLY GOOD in avoiding all this traps and such, then you can have unlimited WotB.

    To archon - i dont know what to change, as I am quite enjoying solo archon farming with my second alt, it is relaxing, paragons are rising and i am chilling on MP1.
    Maybe some barbarians could suggest a slight "nerf" to archon as I suggested slight "nerf" to WotB, nothing i can add here.
  • #10
    @Kallizk and Toyen
    No offense taken, and I'm glad there are people that disagree. Would be a poor discussion if everyone all had the same opinion! Providing people don't flame or throw abuse around, I've no problem with it.

    I remember in the past Jay Wilson was saying that Inferno (original, unnerfed) would test everyone and you would end up being very aware of which defensive skills to use and find it a struggle to use a heavily offensive strategy. Since then, things have changed and it's all about catering for as many people as possible. Without starting a discussion on whether or not that was a good or bad design decision, the focus now is on encouraging diversity and breaking people away from things like perma-zerk builds.

    It is possible to gear up and choose skills for these abilities, and I'm not saying I can't (my abilities and character gear are not important to the topic). My point is that there will be more choice for all players if the abilities were avoidable. It should be up to the player if they want to gear up and chose skills to sit through certain mechanics or go all out dps and avoid them with skill. Either is a valid choice and one or the either may prove more efficient for one player than another.
    "It takes a man with real heart...to make beauty out of the stuff that makes us weep." - Clive Barker
  • #11
    Well, considering my last character died to Arcane, Frozen, Vortex, and something else, in that order, I'm all for this.

    They dropped flares down, and then frozen down - easy to deal with, I ran away, waiting for Vortex I went to run round a corner, wasn't quick enough. I get vortexed into frozen, get smacked on the head and flared to death.

    I'd be fine with this if they weren't so stupid quick at unleashing all of their abilities. I mean within 10 seconds there was nothing on the ground, to 3 flares, a set or two of frozen and then vortex. I mean, in that situation it was impossible for me to have escaped - and that is not on.
    And may the odds be ever in your favour.
    Emmo#2406
  • #12
    Quote from Laevus

    @Kallizk and Toyen
    No offense taken, and I'm glad there are people that disagree. Would be a poor discussion if everyone all had the same opinion! Providing people don't flame or throw abuse around, I've no problem with it.


    I'm glad we still have adults to discuss Diablo 3 with. :P

    Quote from Laevus

    My point is that there will be more choice for all players if the abilities were avoidable.


    In theory you are right, but in practice if the abilities were avoidable everyone would gear glass cannon and use wtv boosted their dps to the max, resulting in even fewer diversity.
    Those Who Do Not Know True Pain Cannot Possibly Understand True Peace...
  • #13
    Quote from Emmo

    Well, considering my last character died to Arcane, Frozen, Vortex, and something else, in that order, I'm all for this.

    They dropped flares down, and then frozen down - easy to deal with, I ran away, waiting for Vortex I went to run round a corner, wasn't quick enough. I get vortexed into frozen, get smacked on the head and flared to death.

    I'd be fine with this if they weren't so stupid quick at unleashing all of their abilities. I mean within 10 seconds there was nothing on the ground, to 3 flares, a set or two of frozen and then vortex. I mean, in that situation it was impossible for me to have escaped - and that is not on.


    Start planning ahead. xD
    While playing HC as soon as i see a pack with those affixes in that order i immediately start looking for a place to fight them BEFORE they start spamming, pre-emptive action goes a long way to saving your ass hehe.
    Those Who Do Not Know True Pain Cannot Possibly Understand True Peace...
  • #14
    Quote from Kallizk

    Quote from Emmo

    Well, considering my last character died to Arcane, Frozen, Vortex, and something else, in that order, I'm all for this.

    They dropped flares down, and then frozen down - easy to deal with, I ran away, waiting for Vortex I went to run round a corner, wasn't quick enough. I get vortexed into frozen, get smacked on the head and flared to death.

    I'd be fine with this if they weren't so stupid quick at unleashing all of their abilities. I mean within 10 seconds there was nothing on the ground, to 3 flares, a set or two of frozen and then vortex. I mean, in that situation it was impossible for me to have escaped - and that is not on.


    Start planning ahead. xD
    While playing HC as soon as i see a pack with those affixes in that order i immediately start looking for a place to fight them BEFORE they start spamming, pre-emptive action goes a long way to saving your ass hehe.


    There's only so much of that you can do. I've been playing HC since day 1, so I know the drill.
    As it happened, with this pack, I was in Halls of Agony, I rounded a corner and there they were, in my face. I barely had time to check their affixes before it hit the proverbial fan.
    And may the odds be ever in your favour.
    Emmo#2406
  • #15
    I also have been finding cc can be very irritatingfirst of all in d2 you could see from the aura cycle on mosters to determine what the threat was having to read what ability the monster has does not add in any way to the experience. (some do but not all)


    Mostly I dislike when 70% of my time fighting is taken up with my character not in my control and that means I am not playing but waiting for some effect to run threw. Yes most of the time it's get avoided but often not, frozen should only slow and that goes for the wizz skill also.

    More things that boost elites like hode, fast and my character should be under my control all the time if death comes then only I should to blame.
  • #16
    Quote from Kallizk

    Quote from Emmo

    Well, considering my last character died to Arcane, Frozen, Vortex, and something else, in that order, I'm all for this.

    They dropped flares down, and then frozen down - easy to deal with, I ran away, waiting for Vortex I went to run round a corner, wasn't quick enough. I get vortexed into frozen, get smacked on the head and flared to death.

    I'd be fine with this if they weren't so stupid quick at unleashing all of their abilities. I mean within 10 seconds there was nothing on the ground, to 3 flares, a set or two of frozen and then vortex. I mean, in that situation it was impossible for me to have escaped - and that is not on.


    Start planning ahead. xD
    While playing HC as soon as i see a pack with those affixes in that order i immediately start looking for a place to fight them BEFORE they start spamming, pre-emptive action goes a long way to saving your ass hehe.


    Yeah, show me how you're supposed to do that when they spawn near the entrance of a cave or something.

    Unavoidable death is bad game design.
  • #17
    Quote from Audacitus

    Quote from Kallizk

    Quote from Emmo

    Well, considering my last character died to Arcane, Frozen, Vortex, and something else, in that order, I'm all for this.

    They dropped flares down, and then frozen down - easy to deal with, I ran away, waiting for Vortex I went to run round a corner, wasn't quick enough. I get vortexed into frozen, get smacked on the head and flared to death.

    I'd be fine with this if they weren't so stupid quick at unleashing all of their abilities. I mean within 10 seconds there was nothing on the ground, to 3 flares, a set or two of frozen and then vortex. I mean, in that situation it was impossible for me to have escaped - and that is not on.


    Start planning ahead. xD
    While playing HC as soon as i see a pack with those affixes in that order i immediately start looking for a place to fight them BEFORE they start spamming, pre-emptive action goes a long way to saving your ass hehe.


    Yeah, show me how you're supposed to do that when they spawn near the entrance of a cave or something.

    Unavoidable death is bad game design.


    Simple, enter, do a couple spells and exit before they spam abilities, it's not like they have enrage anymore, and even when they had ppl did this... and ofc u can always try to skip them, which will result in higher deaths probably. xD
    But if u want to talk about game design, it was designed so u would tackle mobs u can actually defeat, so if u do have this problem lower your MP, if you still have them in MP0 go hell...

    Quote from Game Over

    if death comes then only I should to blame.


    Only you are to blame, cause u choose your mp badly or geared/specced poorly. :P
    Those Who Do Not Know True Pain Cannot Possibly Understand True Peace...
  • #18
    Quote from Audacitus

    Unavoidable death is bad game design.


    Fully agree.

    Quote from Kallizk

    Only you are to blame, cause u choose your mp badly or geared/specced poorly. :P


    A champion pack with frozen/nightmarish/jailer/waller can potentially render you unable to do anything. They can keep you CC'ed infinitely. This is bad game design and has nothing to do with gear, spec, or MP level. Look at it from the other side: they introduced CC diminishing returns for monsters such that they can't be CC'ed 100% (but they somehow forgot to nerf CMWW). Why didn't players get diminishing returns?

    Ever encountered two frozen packs at the same time? GG. One of the reasons my main characters stay softcore. Unless there are diminishing returns or some low-cooldown CC breaking abilities, I'm not gonna switch to HC. And this is where I completely agree with the OP.
  • #19
    You can be geared for MP7-9 and still die in MP5 due to a shitty affix set up... MP has nothing to do with it... the point is, too many affixes pop out too often... frozen covers a large portion of the ground, and usually comes in waves of 2 or more... I'm not saying make the game easy... the game is already easy. I'm just stating (respectfully), too much cc all the time is just flat retarded
    WD - mostly other chars are toilet... my pride and joy ;D http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/SirBoneselot-1182/hero/1672627
  • #20
    Nice read, great thread so far.

    I'm definitely with the dev team in the sense that these "oh I'm godlike" skills shouldn't really have a 100% uptime. I'm fine with anywhere between 60-80% uptime for them. And I'm positively against WotB having permanent cc-immunity (instead of a sort of limited one), for obvious reasons -_-

    I'm still up on the fence though when it comes to unavoidable monster affixes (Nightmarish, Vortex, Jailer). Because these add a layer of "build some buffer defenses for oh-shit moments or you will die every now and then".

    I'd rather see more solid/viable "defensive" skills/runes to deal with these (maybe even on some underused offensive skills). That means tactical usage of resources/cooldowns to deal with these affixes, and not a lot of people have been using those lately (Smokescreen, Ignore Pain, Mirror Image, etc.).
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