[suggestion] radical reduction of AH influence

  • #1
    How about this one?

    Items could turn "account bound" upon purchase from the AH.

    Either
    a)permanently
    or
    b)temporarily (like 3 weeks, tuneable in all directions)

    This would create a huge item sink and remove flipping from the game. Either you need the item or you don't buy it, period. It's similar to the WoW "BoE" system, now, that I think about it, though "BoE" wouldn't be enough for D3, for obvious reasons.

    If you think "Wait, what if I want to purchase an item now and resell it once I get something better?!", please imagine how much you'd actually lose. Odds are, that by the time, that you dump an item, it doesn't have nearly the value it had, when you purchased it.

    What are your thoughts? I know, the AH-players wouldn't like it, it's like taking away their game. Are these the majority of players these days? After most of the monster slayers left ;)

    edit:

    copy/pasting this from my latest response for those, who only read starting posts because I consider it a good summary of my pov:

    Quote from "shaggy" »

    They shouldn't remove or penalize trading. But they should de-incentivize it by making it plausible for you to effectively play the game without engaging in it.


    I kind of agree with this.

    I could reduce my suggested item sink to "bind to account on equip", that would be the bare minimum and a pure improvement of the game with no unwarranted penalties to anyone.

    That would keep trading and flipping alive and working at full capacity. The problem of this is, that time spent on the AH would remain more rewarding than time spent playing, which is one of the game's biggest issues. Tackling this is important, imo. And via my original suggestion, Blizz could kill those two birds with one stone.
    I apologize for any formating issues in my posts, I just can't use the new editor.Currently playing Magic 2014, see my thread:http://www.diablofans.com/topic/97565-magic-2014/
    Also, if you like Classics, try:Dungeons and Dragons Anthology ( http://www.gamersgat...ster-collection )
  • #2
    Yeah, has been discussed several times. I can try to dig up some of the responses to this idea.

    In the end, if you think about it, it doesn't really change much. I really don't like the AH and wouldn't mind if it would be gone by tomorrow, but it wouldn't help me to get more fun out of the game at all. I don't re-sell my old items (too lazy, just salvage them), and I don't care about flippers. The best items in the game are sold outside of the AH anyways, and items worth less than a million aren't probably worth to be put on the AH again anyways. So, this would only affect (and annoy) a limited amount of players, but it wouldn't address the root of the problem.
  • #3
    My thoughts? I hate it. Making items BOA is not the answer. I am strongly opposed to any form of binding gear to accounts or characters.

    Also, the auction house is a perfectly valid form of trading. Honestly your post reeks of self found elitism. Flipping yes is a consequence of implementing an AH but if anything flippers lose out on their experience. I don't understand why flipping hurts someone who doesn't use the AH.
  • #4
    I'd like it even though I don't use the AH for buying.

    How about make traded items "ethereal" and not able to repair them. Lolzorz mp10 braggers will have to find new gear before theirs run out. :hehe:
    Make your peace...Quickly!
  • #5
    Bagstone:
    I don't think, it'd be the be all end all cure for the game, but I consider it an improvement nonetheless.

    It's targeted at players like me, who want to spend most of their time killing monsters, but would also like to sell their finds via the AH and buy some upgrades from the money gained that way. It would be elitist to call this "the way it's meant to be played", but I think (or hope) that most players, who bought the game a year ago, wanted that.

    I really think, there would be economical benefits to anyone in that group of players I described. With so many items out of the system after useage, prices would never be so low. And new drops would have value, because there wouldn't already be millions of the same item in play. Currently, even if you do hit the jackpot and find, say, a Mempo, it's still not even worth a million (unless that 1 random stat is crit). Thus you can't "live" from your own drops, which results in not being able to purchase other peoples wares, yadda yadda yadda.

    So the item sink (which wasn't my idea, it was mentioned by maka in my last thread) would be the overwhelming benefit. Removing flippers (mostly bots) from the game would be more of a -beneficial- side effect.
    After all, if there is a good deal on the item that I want, I don't want it taken away and price-corrected by some guy who never even met Diablo in a game named after him ;)
    That's a little egoistic, though, but feel free to think the same way :)
    I apologize for any formating issues in my posts, I just can't use the new editor.Currently playing Magic 2014, see my thread:http://www.diablofans.com/topic/97565-magic-2014/
    Also, if you like Classics, try:Dungeons and Dragons Anthology ( http://www.gamersgat...ster-collection )
  • #6
    There is nothing wrong with the AH, people who still claim that are delusional.

    The AH is nothing but a trading platform. If you are not happy with itemisation or drop rates or your drop luck or whatever, then complain about those, not about the AH.

    Quote from Solmyr77

    If you think "Wait, what if I want to purchase an item now and resell it once I get something better?!", please imagine how much you'd actually lose. Odds are, that by the time, that you dump an item, it doesn't have nearly the value it had, when you purchased it


    This part is particularily stupid. Imagine somebody buying a 2 billion item and finding a 5 billion upgrade later. I am pretty sure he wants his original 2bill back by selling his item. It's not his fault that you never traded anything valuable. Most oher people have.

    Quote from Solmyr77

    I really think, there would be economical benefits to anyone in that group of players I described. With so many items out of the system after useage, prices would never be so low. And new drops would have value, because there wouldn't already be millions of the same item in play.


    That's pretty much the situation we have in HC. I dont know how much you played it, but the effect is not what you imagine. Items are RARE. You will not be able to buy any set or legendary item ( for lvl 60 ) because they all cost billions. Yes, new drops have value. So much that you wont be able to afford it, and only the very few rich 0.5% at the top can ever afford them.
  • #7
    That's the thing about it. A change that targets a specific group is not fair.

    Anyways, I don't think any changes should be made until itemization 2.0. We should see how that effects the economy before making irreversible changes.
  • #8
    Quote from Twoflower

    That's pretty much the situation we have in HC. I dont know how much you played it, but the effect is not what you imagine. Items are RARE. You will not be able to buy any set or legendary item ( for lvl 60 ) because they all cost billions. Yes, new drops have value. So much that you wont be able to afford it, and only the very few rich 0.5% at the top can ever afford them.


    This pisses me off. So to have a balanced economy (whatever that is) I have to play a game mode I don't like? I don't like permanent death; sometimes I'm a bit drowsy when I'm playing, sometimes I'm high, and most of the time I have 250ms ping or above.

    I hate that response. "Oh, you should play HC, the economy is balanced there". Screw that.
  • #9
    Quote from Serpenth

    Anyways, I don't think any changes should be made until itemization 2.0. We should see how that effects the economy before making irreversible changes.


    So much this. So very very very much this.
    66.0k elite kills :: 1.97m total kills :: p244
    Planet Express <PlanEx>
    (V) (°,,°) (V)
  • #10
    Quote from Twoflower

    There is nothing wrong with the AH, people who still claim that are delusional.


    Just to let you know, even Blizzard disagrees with you.

    http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/03/28/jay-wilson-wed-turn-off-diablo-iiis-auction-house-if-we-could
    http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7980249170?page=20#387
    ... and many other sources if you wanna ask Google.
  • #11
    Quote from Twoflower

    There is nothing wrong with the AH, people who still claim that are delusional.

    The AH is nothing but a trading platform. If you are not happy with itemisation or drop rates or your drop luck or whatever, then complain about those, not about the AH.


    Well, the AH in itself is fine, it's just the part of the game that reveals some flaws and puts them right in your face. Comparing this to a complaint about drop luck is rather childish. Yes, this is offensive, which I usually don't like to be, but it seems, I have to adapt.


    This part is particularily stupid. Imagine somebody buying a 2 billion item and finding a 5 billion upgrade later. I am pretty sure he wants his original 2bill back by selling his item. It's not his fault that you never traded anything valuable. Most oher people have.


    That's what I meant. I'd say, it's stupid to make up a scenario that could affect about 0.0001% of the playerbase and then has a chance to happen of about 0.0001% again in an effort to prove something wrong.
    So you paid 2b for a Manticore 6 months ago and got a better one now? Guess what that original one is worth now. And seriously, who would complain about finding a 5b item right after spending 2b on another one?
    Also, if it were the norm to not recycle items, like it's been in WoW for ages, nobody would even bother about a refund for their old stuff.


    That's pretty much the situation we have in HC. I dont know how much you played it, but the effect is not what you imagine. Items are RARE. You will not be able to buy any set or legendary item ( for lvl 60 ) because they all cost billions. Yes, new drops have value. So much that you wont be able to afford it, and only the very few rich 0.5% at the top can ever afford them.


    Hardly, got dragged into it by a friend for a night, but I don't like the mode.
    But I don't consider your statements negative. I want drops to have value. And no, not all legendary items in hc cost billions. You're just making up ridiculous numbers again to show off so others believe you more.

    edit:
    Hey maka, seems we think similar about his hc statements. Though I think he wanted to make it sound bad :) (when it actually is great)
    I apologize for any formating issues in my posts, I just can't use the new editor.Currently playing Magic 2014, see my thread:http://www.diablofans.com/topic/97565-magic-2014/
    Also, if you like Classics, try:Dungeons and Dragons Anthology ( http://www.gamersgat...ster-collection )
  • #12
    Quote from Twoflower

    There is nothing wrong with the AH, people who still claim that are delusional.

    The AH is nothing but a trading platform. If you are not happy with itemisation or drop rates or your drop luck or whatever, then complain about those, not about the AH.

    Quote from Solmyr77

    If you think "Wait, what if I want to purchase an item now and resell it once I get something better?!", please imagine how much you'd actually lose. Odds are, that by the time, that you dump an item, it doesn't have nearly the value it had, when you purchased it


    This part is particularily stupid. Imagine somebody buying a 2 billion item and finding a 5 billion upgrade later. I am pretty sure he wants his original 2bill back by selling his item. It's not his fault that you never traded anything valuable. Most oher people have.

    Quote from Solmyr77

    I really think, there would be economical benefits to anyone in that group of players I described. With so many items out of the system after useage, prices would never be so low. And new drops would have value, because there wouldn't already be millions of the same item in play.


    That's pretty much the situation we have in HC. I dont know how much you played it, but the effect is not what you imagine. Items are RARE. You will not be able to buy any set or legendary item ( for lvl 60 ) because they all cost billions. Yes, new drops have value. So much that you wont be able to afford it, and only the very few rich 0.5% at the top can ever afford them.


    Funnies reply evar. Solmyr has the right to blame the Auction House because Jay Wilson confirmed that the quality of items was altered because there was going to be an AH. Because they decided to implent the AH, they decided to make it harder to find good items because it would be easier to access them through the AH... Your argument here is invalid.

    Calling peoples opinions stupid is shooting yourself in the foot if you are trying to win an argument. If a guy buys a weapon for 2 billion he should see it as an investment of 2 billion instead of borrowing the item from the AH. You see, if he buys the item for a said price and uses it for say 3 months and then resells it for the same value he has basically used that weapon for free (based on that the weapon sells for the same value).
    - It's like buying a game at a gamestop, play it for a week and get your money back before the returndate expires...

    Let the flippers hit the floor.
    Make your peace...Quickly!
  • #13
    There is nothing wrong with the AH, people who still claim that are delusional.

    The AH is nothing but a trading platform. If you are not happy with itemisation or drop rates or your drop luck or whatever, then complain about those, not about the AH.


    To me the OP didn't want to solve some AH problem, but wanted to address the lack of item sinks. However making items BoA on trade would only slow down the item inflation, how much is very hard to know since we don't know how big part of the items on AH are resells of items that players have found/bought upgrades to and how many are "fresh unused" items.

    Right now the game only has item sinks for the low quality items, vending and salvaging. To really make a dent in the item inflation players would need to have reason to destroy the top quality items too.
  • #14
    Quote from maka

    Quote from Twoflower

    That's pretty much the situation we have in HC. I dont know how much you played it, but the effect is not what you imagine. Items are RARE. You will not be able to buy any set or legendary item ( for lvl 60 ) because they all cost billions. Yes, new drops have value. So much that you wont be able to afford it, and only the very few rich 0.5% at the top can ever afford them.


    This pisses me off. So to have a balanced economy (whatever that is) I have to play a game mode I don't like? I don't like permanent death; sometimes I'm a bit drowsy when I'm playing, sometimes I'm high, and most of the time I have 250ms ping or above.

    I hate that response. "Oh, you should play HC, the economy is balanced there". Screw that.


    Sorry, I might have used that argument some times ^_^
    I'm glad I play HC. I have a stable connection and the economy there is better. But I really hope they somehow fix the SC economy aswell because right now it is F'ed up badly. In need of radical change naooo!
    Make your peace...Quickly!
  • #15
    First the off topic flaming :

    Quote from maka

    I hate that response. "Oh, you should play HC, the economy is balanced there". Screw that.


    If you cared to read you would see that I never said anything like that. I was comparing economies.

    Quote from Elendiro

    Calling peoples opinions stupid is shooting yourself in the foot if you are trying to win an argument.


    There is no argument and no winning here. We all are not in a position where we realy have any influence on what blizzard is gonna do, so all we can do is exchange ideas. And yes, calling a idiot a idiot will not make you popular amongst idiots. But they are not my targeted audience anyway.

    Then on topic :

    Quote from zimira

    To me the OP didn't want to solve some AH problem, but wanted to address the lack of item sinks.


    We need ladders for that reason IMO.

    Quote from Solmyr77

    Well, the AH in itself is fine, it's just the part of the game that reveals some flaws and puts them right in your face.


    That's exactly what I said and what everybody is ridiculing ( in their own ignorance ).

    I am not saying that the game is perfect or that it can not be improved. I am just saying that removig the AH ( or drastically reducing it ) is not the improvement we are looking for.

    It's a very difficult balancing act and the more players the game has, the harder it is to balance. I dont know if we will ever see a solution that everybody is happy with, I hardly doubt it in fact. Unless they split the game up much much more.

    What I know is that if we remove the AH. trading will happen elsewhere ( like on this forum ). If we make items bind on account once they are put in the AH, people will trade outside the AH again. This wont change the game though, people will still buy items to resell ( just outside the game ), people will still have chars quadrillion times more powerfull than our chars, there will still be a selected few items that are godly and the rest will mainly be trash. All that is different is that you can not compare it that easily ingame any more, therefore it is easier to stay ignorant for people who chose so. But that ignorance does not change the facts.
  • #16
    Quote from Twoflower

    And yes, calling a idiot a idiot will not make you popular amongst idiots. But they are not my targeted audience anyway.


    d'oh :doh:
    I apologize for any formating issues in my posts, I just can't use the new editor.Currently playing Magic 2014, see my thread:http://www.diablofans.com/topic/97565-magic-2014/
    Also, if you like Classics, try:Dungeons and Dragons Anthology ( http://www.gamersgat...ster-collection )
  • #17
    BoA from AH use won't solve anything. It will just force people to use non-AH methods to trade.

    Some people think that you just make anything exchanged in any manner BoA but that's not likely something they'll implement as it severely impinges upon the Diablo tradition.

    Quote from Elendiro

    - It's like buying a game at a gamestop, play it for a week and get your money back before the returndate expires...

    Let the flippers hit the floor.


    Are you suggesting that buying low and selling high destroys economies? Because EVERY OTHER ECONOMY IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD begs to disagree. It sounds to me like you believe that someone who buys a new TV on eBay and only pays $25 for it should be criminalized for ruining the economy.

    What you demonize is just a natural part of auctioning. Just go to any brick-and-mortar auction. Some items sell above their actual value, some sell below. This is life, and it doesn't ruin anything. Trying to blame a very natural part of an economy for the ills of the world is just completely ignorant of .... how everything actually works.

    I mean, in all seriousness, if I'm a "car guy" and I find a 1967 Mustang on eBay for $1000 but I know it's worth $5000 and, through the luck of the draw, I manage to purchase it for $1250 and immediately resell it for $5000.... are you saying that is causing the economy to falter? Because, if so, I have to severely disagree. And I'm pretty sure every economist would severely disagree as well. It sounds great to blame YOUR economic problems on people who are flipping items, but it just doesn't hold any sort of water when you look at it under a microscope.

    Maybe we should arrest the Pawn Stars too. Those guys are always buying low and selling high... they're clearly destroying the Las Vegas economy.

    EDIT
    In fact, the whole idea of flipping is the entire basis of the stock market. And, while you could argue that Wall Street is fucking the economy up, it's not because of simple stock purchases. It's because of the sinister behind-closed-doors shit that goes on.

    People have been flipping real estate for a very long time without any significant detriment to the market. There are few things which truly aren't flippable. You rarely see any actual damage to the economies as a result, though.

    I'm sure that if flipping is so detrimental to economies that you could give some examples. Don't worry, I won't wait, because they don't exist outside of people who got their economics degrees from a Happy Meal pontificating on Diablo 3 forums. :)
    66.0k elite kills :: 1.97m total kills :: p244
    Planet Express <PlanEx>
    (V) (°,,°) (V)
  • #18
    Quote from shaggy

    BoA from AH use won't solve anything. It will just force people to use non-AH methods to trade.

    Some people think that you just make anything exchanged in any manner BoA but that's not likely something they'll implement as it severely impinges upon the Diablo tradition.

    Quote from Elendiro

    - It's like buying a game at a gamestop, play it for a week and get your money back before the returndate expires...

    Let the flippers hit the floor.


    Are you suggesting that buying low and selling high destroys economies? Because EVERY OTHER ECONOMY IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD begs to disagree. It sounds to me like you believe that someone who buys a new TV on eBay and only pays $25 for it should be criminalized for ruining the economy.

    What you demonize is just a natural part of auctioning. Just go to any brick-and-mortar auction. Some items sell above their actual value, some sell below. This is life, and it doesn't ruin anything. Trying to blame a very natural part of an economy for the ills of the world is just completely ignorant of .... how everything actually works.

    I mean, in all seriousness, if I'm a "car guy" and I find a 1967 Mustang on eBay for $1000 but I know it's worth $5000 and, through the luck of the draw, I manage to purchase it for $1250 and immediately resell it for $5000.... are you saying that is causing the economy to falter? Because, if so, I have to severely disagree. And I'm pretty sure every economist would severely disagree as well. It sounds great to blame YOUR economic problems on people who are flipping items, but it just doesn't hold any sort of water when you look at it under a microscope.

    Maybe we should arrest the Pawn Stars too. Those guys are always buying low and selling high... they're clearly destroying the Las Vegas economy.


    TL;DR :P

    No, but seriously. The reason why I am against flippers (mostly botters, but fair players too) is simple.
    By buying cheap and selling for more they can gain more money faster without playing the real game.
    A person who just hit level 60 and has saved all his money during his time leveling up (say one million). He uses that money to climb the economy ladder. By flipping items he gain several hundreds of million gold and buy top gear (mp10 viable) on the action house. Basically he has improved his character faaar more than somebody who has played countless of hours who probably haven't come close to mp10 viable gear by finding it by himself.

    A person who has flipped, got 1 000 elite kills, 300k dps and mp10 viable.
    vs.
    A person who has played and found items for himself for 200 hours, around 10 000 elite kills, 150k dps and absolutely not mp10 viable...

    Is that how the game is supposed to be played in your view?

    I laugh at your defenses.
    Make your peace...Quickly!
  • #19
    Quote from shaggy

    BoA from AH use won't solve anything. It will just force people to use non-AH methods to trade.


    I don't think everyone would suddenly visit other sites. And having an active trading subforum on dfans wouldn't be that bad either.

    I also like Elendiro's view of items being a one-way investment. Therefore why not just kill two birds with one stone and also make them BoE?
    I apologize for any formating issues in my posts, I just can't use the new editor.Currently playing Magic 2014, see my thread:http://www.diablofans.com/topic/97565-magic-2014/
    Also, if you like Classics, try:Dungeons and Dragons Anthology ( http://www.gamersgat...ster-collection )
  • #20
    Quote from Solmyr77

    I don't think everyone would suddenly visit other sites. And having an active trading subforum on dfans wouldn't be that bad either.

    I also like Elendiro's view of items being a one-way investment. Therefore why not just kill two birds with one stone and also make them BoE?


    1 : cause items are not a one way investment.

    2 : you obviously have not gone trough the hassle of forum trading in older games. It's terrible and having a ingame trading tool is a great thing that we should be greatful for.

    Also : if you take out the ingame trading tool, how will you balance items and stats and drop rates ? Obviously some people will not bother to find outside the game trade sources, while others will be filthy rich on these trade forums. Will you balance around selffound only ? Or keep the balance as it is now ? I can tell you, whatever you do, people will complain. Ingame trade tool is the only way to go. Everything else is wishful thinking and totally last millennium.

    Or you just go full selffound, which maybe 1% of the player will keep playing and the rest finds new games.
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