RE: The Endless Dungeon Topic

  • #1
    I just posted this on the official forums, but seeing how it's likely to be drowned out by all the yammering whines on there, I decided to repost it here. This is off the Endless Dungeon thread that seems to be picking up speed.



    While the idea is more original and creative than most, the very idea of an endless dungeon seems to me to smack too much of Jrpg's, a category that I've begun to dislike over the past several years - lots of meaningless, repetitive and artifically added content.

    While you could argue that running the same route over and over is equally meaningless and repetitive, a dungeon that keeps spawning floors is basically the same thing, dumbed down, plus you're forced to commit to it which is the biggest thing that turns me off.

    I would humbly suggest that instead, some focus be given on the side-dungeons in the game - better monster density, more interesting layouts, events, and traps, and maybe minibosses - stronger than elites, weaker than full bosses, spawns with and can spawn more trash, with interesting scripted combat elements a la Heart of the Swarm.

    Furthermore, for those who still want an 'endless grind' experience, the end of the dungeon would have TWO portals - one outside and one that ports to another random side dungeon in the same act. Some kind of bonus should be given for clearing a side dungeon and moving on to another one, perhaps as simple as another neph stack or even gold and exp bonuses that multiply by the number of side dungeons cleared in a row. In my honest opinion, this sounds better and truer to the Diablo style than some procedure-generated cave that just keeps going deeper.

    The danger of this would be that the above ground maps might become obsolete. So there should be some thought given on the kind of rewards done by dungeon hopping, and it should be different from that of normal grinds. For example, specific achievements and BoA item rewards, maybe even BoA dungeon-only legendaries and sets, maybe even recipes and mats for new BoA gear. This would make the 'endless dungeons' slightly more geared towards the self-found crowd, while above world and normal grind routes will cater more towards gold, sellable gear, and exp.

    It's Diablo, not a roguelike, and I don't ever want it to be some kind of hipster indie game clone. The solution should be dungeon content quality, not quantity.
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  • #2
    Quote from Lezard_Valeth

    While the idea is more original and creative than most, the very idea of an endless dungeon seems to me to smack too much of Jrpg's, a category that I've begun to dislike over the past several years - lots of meaningless, repetitive and artifically added content.

    While you could argue that running the same route over and over is equally meaningless and repetitive, a dungeon that keeps spawning floors is basically the same thing, dumbed down, plus you're forced to commit to it which is the biggest thing that turns me off.

    I would humbly suggest that instead, some focus be given on the side-dungeons in the game - better monster density, more interesting layouts, events, and traps, and maybe minibosses - stronger than elites, weaker than full bosses, spawns with and can spawn more trash, with interesting scripted combat elements a la Heart of the Swarm.


    Unfortunately, all I can give you is +1, but you deserve a +1000. Absolutely 100% my opinion.

    Can you provide a link to your post on the official forums? Nvm, found it and +1'd as well.
  • #3
    I am from Germany, so please apologize my wording...

    I would like to have the Endless Dungeon like different floors and after each 10 (?) floors there will be a boss-like mob which provides a special chest/buff after he has been defeated. After each of these bosses you can choose to leave the dungeon and start again or to continue the next 10 floors. If you die, you will get a debuff, which will block the dungeon for a several time.

    Due to the difficulty gets harder for each floor you have to choose wisely, when to leave and when to continue. Leaving the dungeon is only possible after defeating a boss.

    This dungeon will work for casual gamers, only playing a few floors and players spending hours farming items. When you get debuffed from dying you can still run your standard runs.
  • #4
    Honestly i feel mobs at higher levels/further areas should do crazy damage and require tanks. Yes i know the argument comes up of having group comps but it would revive the use of shields. Right now shields are terrible on softcore.

    They should also award new legendaries that require paragon level x to use.
  • #5
    Quote from Lezard_Valeth

    I just posted this on the official forums, but seeing how it's likely to be drowned out by all the yammering whines on there, I decided to repost it here. This is off the Endless Dungeon thread that seems to be picking up speed.



    While the idea is more original and creative than most, the very idea of an endless dungeon seems to me to smack too much of Jrpg's, a category that I've begun to dislike over the past several years - lots of meaningless, repetitive and artifically added content.

    While you could argue that running the same route over and over is equally meaningless and repetitive, a dungeon that keeps spawning floors is basically the same thing, dumbed down, plus you're forced to commit to it which is the biggest thing that turns me off.


    well perhaps make it so the player does "not" Feels forced do go into an endless dungeon, but for the thrill of killing hordes of mobs since Diablo is mob slaying, so why not add a mode, that lets you kill mobs in levels?

    Though rewards is something tricky, though it should not be more rewarding than traditionnally, but perhaps add diversity farming not efficiency in that place.

    I really don't mind efficiency where the goal is perhaps "Personal challenge" or "Fun - factor" by killing mobs until you don't want it anymore.

    Or there could be added some special item, that is required to open up 1 lvl entrance in Endless Dungeon - Dunno

    Quote from Lezard_Valeth


    I would humbly suggest that instead, some focus be given on the side-dungeons in the game - better monster density, more interesting layouts, events, and traps, and maybe minibosses - stronger than elites, weaker than full bosses, spawns with and can spawn more trash, with interesting scripted combat elements a la Heart of the Swarm.

    Furthermore, for those who still want an 'endless grind' experience, the end of the dungeon would have TWO portals - one outside and one that ports to another random side dungeon in the same act. Some kind of bonus should be given for clearing a side dungeon and moving on to another one, perhaps as simple as another neph stack or even gold and exp bonuses that multiply by the number of side dungeons cleared in a row. In my honest opinion, this sounds better and truer to the Diablo style than some procedure-generated cave that just keeps going deeper.

    The danger of this would be that the above ground maps might become obsolete. So there should be some thought given on the kind of rewards done by dungeon hopping, and it should be different from that of normal grinds. For example, specific achievements and BoA item rewards, maybe even BoA dungeon-only legendaries and sets, maybe even recipes and mats for new BoA gear. This would make the 'endless dungeons' slightly more geared towards the self-found crowd, while above world and normal grind routes will cater more towards gold, sellable gear, and exp.

    It's Diablo, not a roguelike, and I don't ever want it to be some kind of hipster indie game clone. The solution should be dungeon content quality, not quantity.


    Even though your against commiting yourself to Endless Dungeon, because of Rewards etc... you come with an "Commitment" yourself.

    I like your idea of the way special mobs etc and ways to continue staying in this realm, but "adding" special gear for this is not good, since it Forces the players to farm these areas.

    In general i am up for Endless dungeon and these side dungeons, but no "Special rewards" for going into them = MANDATORY.

    also i like your idea Zwergl
  • #6
    I don't really understand the difference between an endless dungeon and clearing act 1 to 4. It seems to me that most people that are asking for endless dungeon just want keeps lvl 1/2/3/4/... etc with 2x as many demons as there are now.

    However, OP has got a great suggestion. It would be a lot better to work with the current dungeons available than to create some lame system.
  • #7
    Quote from HURRICANE

    I like your idea of the way special mobs etc and ways to continue staying in this realm, but "adding" special gear for this is not good, since it Forces the players to farm these areas.

    In general i am up for Endless dungeon and these side dungeons, but no "Special rewards" for going into them = MANDATORY.



    Wrong.

    Is crafting mandatory in this game? Hardly, although some of the potentially best gear can be found via the BoA recipes. With this design, you'd get less gold than if you ran normal grind routes. The entire idea is that the flavor of the dungeon runs drops more BoA items, ranging from BoA gear itself to BoA mats you can use for new recipes (Besides, you'd need to drop out of the dungeons from time to time anyway to farm real gold-generating items just to pay for the crafting costs).

    We're coming into the highly anticipated itemization patch. It should be easy enough to tinker item levels so that the best gear is still found via normal grinding (which is my favored idea, because I'm one of those people who don't understand at ALL what the big deal is about the whole self-found movement). So what if BoA gear drops during the dungeon runs, but it maxes out at iLvl 62? Hardly mandatory now, don't you think? And yet it provides undergeared players an option - an OPTION, mind - to get some decent items to help them start doing Ubers and high MP farm runs. At the same time, those players who clamor for more self-found gear and despise the AH have an entire new route open to them.

    Quote from yrrildur

    I don't really understand the difference between an endless dungeon and clearing act 1 to 4. It seems to me that most people that are asking for endless dungeon just want keeps lvl 1/2/3/4/... etc with 2x as many demons as there are now.


    I totally agree with you to be honest, but I'm afraid that this whole 'endless dungeon' garbage has acquired a life of its own. To that end, if we're getting something like that anyway, I'd rather it be something that's more Diablo and original than something more... Disgaea.

    Quote from Smashr

    Honestly i feel mobs at higher levels/further areas should do crazy damage and require tanks. Yes i know the argument comes up of having group comps but it would revive the use of shields. Right now shields are terrible on softcore.

    They should also award new legendaries that require paragon level x to use.


    Not sure I like the Paragon-required gear idea. The devs have already stated that they don't want Paragon levels to become a requirement, rather than a reward, and having the best gear need P-levels means exactly that.

    However, I am SO with you on shields and tanking type characters, to the point where I will shamelessly plug an old thread of mine where I argue how bad shields have become in the current environment.
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  • #8
    Quote from Lezard_Valeth

    Quote from HURRICANE

    I like your idea of the way special mobs etc and ways to continue staying in this realm, but "adding" special gear for this is not good, since it Forces the players to farm these areas.

    In general i am up for Endless dungeon and these side dungeons, but no "Special rewards" for going into them = MANDATORY.



    Wrong.

    Is crafting mandatory in this game? Hardly, although some of the potentially best gear can be found via the BoA recipes. With this design, you'd get less gold than if you ran normal grind routes. The entire idea is that the flavor of the dungeon runs drops more BoA items, ranging from BoA gear itself to BoA mats you can use for new recipes.

    We're coming into the highly anticipated itemization patch. It should be easy enough to tinker item levels so that the best gear is still found via normal grinding (which is my favored idea, because I'm one of those people who don't understand at ALL what the big deal is about the whole self-found movement). So what if BoA gear drops during the dungeon runs, but it maxes out at iLvl 62? Hardly mandatory now, don't you think? And yet it provides undergeared players an option - an OPTION, mind - to get some decent items to help them start doing Ubers and high MP farm runs. At the same time, those players who clamor for more self-found gear and despise the AH have an entire new route open to them.


    I'd be fine with an endless dungeon without bonuses that would just drop DE like normal but have a nice stream of elite packs on it. That way, lowly geared players would also be able to "gear up", like i'm doing atm, with crafts. And that works fine already tbh.
  • #9
    Quote from Lezard_Valeth



    Wrong.

    Is crafting mandatory in this game? Hardly, although some of the potentially best gear can be found via the BoA recipes. With this design, you'd get less gold than if you ran normal grind routes. The entire idea is that the flavor of the dungeon runs drops more BoA items, ranging from BoA gear itself to BoA mats you can use for new recipes (Besides, you'd need to drop out of the dungeons from time to time anyway to farm real gold-generating items just to pay for the crafting costs).

    We're coming into the highly anticipated itemization patch. It should be easy enough to tinker item levels so that the best gear is still found via normal grinding (which is my favored idea, because I'm one of those people who don't understand at ALL what the big deal is about the whole self-found movement). So what if BoA gear drops during the dungeon runs, but it maxes out at iLvl 62? Hardly mandatory now, don't you think? And yet it provides undergeared players an option - an OPTION, mind - to get some decent items to help them start doing Ubers and high MP farm runs. At the same time, those players who clamor for more self-found gear and despise the AH have an entire new route open to them.




    i am just personally against items only dropping in specific location of the game (not counting keys).

    an increased drop chance to BOA gear would be fine, though (i thought) that you meant on par with the current BOA gear.
  • #10
    Quote from Kamisei2400

    I'd be fine with an endless dungeon without bonuses that would just drop DE like normal but have a nice stream of elite packs on it. That way, lowly geared players would also be able to "gear up", like i'm doing atm, with crafts. And that works fine already tbh.


    Unfortunately, a constant stream of elites is in and of itself a big bonus. If you think it'll help low geared players, imagine what it'll do for the Archon Wizard with 300k 555k dps.

    ... yes, I'm looking at you, Jaetch. :D
    Check out my blog at archmagelezard.blogspot.com :D
  • #11
    Quote from HURRICANE

    i am just personally against items only dropping in specific location of the game (not counting keys).



    Here's something we agree on, actually, as it makes Diablo feel more like one of those Korean MMO farmbotfests. However, the devs have mentioned location/boss-based specific drops before - for example, giving the Butcher an increased chance to drop the two pieces of gear named after him.

    I'm throwing out this idea as a way to implement that thought, while still keeping the essential loot randomness that makes Diablo what it is. To clarify, in my idea the dungeon run minibosses can possibly drop a single piece of BoA gear, taken from a GROUP of dungeon BoA's. In other words, killing Boss H doesn't guarantee dropping Phat Lewt H.

    EDIT: Ugh, sorry for the double post, I thought I was doing an edit when I was writing this one.
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  • #12
    Quote from Lezard_Valeth
    I'm one of those people who don't understand at ALL what the big deal is about the whole self-found movement


    Really, you don't understand why people like to find their own gear?
  • #13
    Quote from maka

    Quote from Lezard_Valeth
    I'm one of those people who don't understand at ALL what the big deal is about the whole self-found movement


    Really, you don't understand why people like to find their own gear?


    I don't understand why people make such a HUGE deal out of it to the point where they try to make the rest of us AH users feel like cheesy gold bots.

    It took my LoD werewolf druid 8 years to drop my BiS Windhammer. EIGHT. YEARS. That's right, I dropped the one weapon I needed more than anything in 2009. I did NOT feel a single shred of achievement when I got it. I just kind of looked at it sadly, sighed, slapped a skull on it and equipped it, and went on grinding through Harrogath.

    I don't know about you, but I personally don't care to repeat that experience. As far as I'm concerned, God bless the gold AH. I have zero problems with other people getting luckier than me and dropping trifectas and selling them for better gear. Good for them, I say, they're enjoying the Diablo experience to the fullest. I'm not petty enough to get mad that I can't buy the best gear on the AH, and it bugged the hell out of me in Diablo 2 to drop a great item none of my builds could use, and having to log on one of my millions of mules just to find space to stash it in.

    But anyway, this is all rather off topic. I acknowledge the fact that a sizeable group of people WANT more self found gear, and this idea should satisfy them somewhat.
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  • #14
    1) Make endless dungeon only available to players paragon level 100
    2) :Thumbs Up:
  • #15
    Quote from Lezard_Valeth

    Is crafting mandatory in this game? Hardly,


    Wrong.
    It is if one wants the BiS Gloves or shoulders, and since it's a loot game everyone wants those meaning crafting IS mandatory.

    OT: Already posted this in official forums, but be it either survival mode with several waves incoming like the old days of wc3 tower defense or endless dungeon, i hope something is added to the profile, like highest floor achieved or highest wave survived, just below the most gold collected etc.

    The rewards could be entirely new stuff, like each floor/wave cleared would give nephalem tokens that could be redeemed from a special vendor in the entrance.

    Tokens would buy stuff like a dye that would consume an item (removing it from the economy) and then could be used on another to give it the same look.

    Different potions, a potion that absorbs 25k fire/physical etc dmg, shares cooldown but stronger than normal pots although more specific.

    Hell even an item to wear your banner on your back like wings would be awesome.

    Of course the ammount of tokens and the rewards would have to be balanced, the mobs would drop only gold and legendaries @ same rate of other mobs but not award any xp or low quality items, that way ppl can still farm the game for xp and salvage mats/demonic essences, and farm endless dungeon for chalenge and alternative items.
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  • #16
    Quote from Kallizk

    It is if u want the best shoulders in the game and/or gloves, and since this is a loot game where everyone strives for the best gear... yeah it is pretty mandatory.


    Please include the entire sentence next time.

    Is crafting mandatory in this game? Hardly, although some of the potentially best gear can be found via the BoA recipes.


    I acknowledge the fact that in the end, if you really want the best dps possible, you'll need to dabble with the BoA recipes. That doesn't mean everyone does them to the exclusion of all else, right from hitting level 60, and even if you did, where did you find the gold and the essences? Everyone is running grind routes when they log in. Not everyone sits and crafts all day. That's not exactly mandatory, especially when you're talking about 2 recipes out of over a hundred.

    Besides, the ideas I mentioned above have nothing to do with the Archon Spaulders/Gloves BoA's. I was talking about new mats for BoA type gear and how they should not become the object of mandatory runs, a la Alkaiser.

    EDIT: Very technically speaking, you're correct when it comes to gems, as the best ones are BoA. Nevertheless, considering that barely anyone wants a crafted weapon as their endgame item (at least for now), I hardly think that makes crafting absolutely mandatory.

    Perhaps we just have different definitions of it.
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  • #17
    My reply from the Blizz forums thread

    Endless Dungeon:
    Random map generator, not necessarily underground/tower tilesets (since it's a magical place and all) so you can shuffle tilesets from all acts into it. Also mix mob types from all acts in maps (think d2 max difficulty baal dungeon).
    Upon death the dungeon resets to lvl1.
    Gets progressively harder (say, every 2/3/5 levels which correspond to 30m of gameplay the MP equivalent goes up by 1, unlimited).
    MF/GF goes up along with the MP equivalent.
    Every 10/15/25 levels which correspond to 150m of gameplay there's a treasure room (chests or goblins, goblins can get away so if someone rushes for the treasure rooms but doesn't have the damage he won't be guaranteed a reward).
    Monster/elite density never more than an underfarmed region of the game so the goto place for quick farm runs is still in the acts.

    Pretty much.

    edit: Another idea and couple of points.
    Idea part, could design levels of the dungeon with a goal oriented approach, eg an arena level where the goal is to kill all monsters and only then will the exit appear, or a winding pathways level where you need to click all switches etc. Treasure levels could have gatekeepers (incorporating the bosses idea from OP) leading into chests or the aforementioned treasure goblins to provide the barrier to rushers.
    Also about hardcore characters, this would be the ultimate badge of honor. Died (level reached xxx is a record!). Max level characters in d2 used to have duels tournaments when they were about to retire (or they could ignore those and keep on farming, remember safe efficient farming would still be found in the regular acts more than the dungeon).

    End of Blizz forums thread reply


    The main draw of the endless dungeon as I see it is to provide an endgame/what can I accomplish setting that currently doesn't exist. That 500k dps character can't do much other than farm money if he got BiS gear and nothing differentiates him from that other 500k dps character.

    If they go with the design I proposed above or something similar, scaling difficulty along with MF/GF means that the dungeon will be the goto place to farm if and only if you can efficiently farm MP levels greater than currently exist and do this in nonideal zones in terms of monster density. And to reach that point you have to go through the lesser MP levels, which also takes time. And once you've farmed MP11-12 equivalents efficiently (somehow) you then have to go to MP13+ territory and you might not be able to handle that so, again, gg.

    It's really not hard to design the random map generator with the constraints that make sure farming the acts is always more efficient (unless they screw up, which is a legitimate worry!).

    Don't know the particulars about their design process and if creating the dungeon means not creating other content. The dungeon is an inherently algorithmic process however (meaning they only have to figure out a way to generate level layouts out of existing tilesets, which is already in game if only in a limited way and not in all areas) so it shouldn't take up art designer man hours etc (which is the most time consuming stuff) so I'd really not worry about it.
  • #18
    My concern with the endless dungeon is that some people want it to be a separate game mode or something you can quickly access via an NPC, in game object, or even portal. I think this is the wrong way to go about it because this will eliminate desire for the dungeons and a week after the patch the forums will be flooded with "Well those were fun for a week, bye Diablo III" threads.

    They should be randomly found in the game just like other dungeon. How the system is designed well I had a suggestion in the news thread and don't want to type it again, it's not really important. I just think how they are found will be the most important part of the feature. I don't want to just go get 5 stacks and talk to an NPC in town. I want to find it. I want it to be random. I want it to be Diablo.
  • #19
    Quote from elvy

    If they go with the design I proposed above or something similar, scaling difficulty along with MF/GF means that the dungeon will be the goto place to farm if and only if you can efficiently farm MP levels greater than currently exist and do this in nonideal zones in terms of monster density. And to reach that point you have to go through the lesser MP levels, which also takes time. And once you've farmed MP11-12 equivalents efficiently (somehow) you then have to go to MP13+ territory and you might not be able to handle that so, again, gg.


    Creating a single area that's the "best" farm spot once you hit X DPS is the stupidest thing Blizzard could do.

    Why waste time fixing monster density? Why waste time implementing Ubers and Monster Power? Why have anything in the game? No one is looking at it unless they're grinding gold so that they can get enough gear from the AH so they can go to the endless dungeon which is the "real" farming spot. It invalidates 90% of the work they've put into the game thusfar only to appease a group of people who can't engage their brains long enough to understand just how disastrous that kind of idea is.

    In a world where they're trying to move us away from the AH the idea that an endless dungeon should be the best farming spot once you have a certain level of gear completely destroys that and sends us back to Day 1 with the Act 2 wall and people being stuffed into the AH to overcome that massive hurdle so that they could get the better gear on the other side of the wall.
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  • #20
    Quote from shaggy

    Quote from elvy

    If they go with the design I proposed above or something similar, scaling difficulty along with MF/GF means that the dungeon will be the goto place to farm if and only if you can efficiently farm MP levels greater than currently exist and do this in nonideal zones in terms of monster density. And to reach that point you have to go through the lesser MP levels, which also takes time. And once you've farmed MP11-12 equivalents efficiently (somehow) you then have to go to MP13+ territory and you might not be able to handle that so, again, gg.


    Creating a single area that's the "best" farm spot once you hit X DPS is the stupidest thing Blizzard could do.

    Why waste time fixing monster density? Why waste time implementing Ubers and Monster Power? Why have anything in the game? No one is looking at it unless they're grinding gold so that they can get enough gear from the AH so they can go to the endless dungeon which is the "real" farming spot. It invalidates 90% of the work they've put into the game thusfar only to appease a group of people who can't engage their brains long enough to understand just how disastrous that kind of idea is.

    In a world where they're trying to move us away from the AH the idea that an endless dungeon should be the best farming spot once you have a certain level of gear completely destroys that and sends us back to Day 1 with the Act 2 wall and people being stuffed into the AH to overcome that massive hurdle so that they could get the better gear on the other side of the wall.


    It would be the 'best' for about 30 minutes of gameplay. To get there you'd have to spend over 60 minutes of gameplay. After those 30 minutes, because the dungeon scales, the gear to farm it efficiently would not exist. Pretty simple concept, no?

    I'll just make it a bit clearer. Imagine a character that has MAX DPS (ie every piece of gear perfectly rolled). That character can efficiently farm up to (nonexistent as of now) Monster Power 12 (remember, Blizzard sets the numbers, they can make sure that MP12 but not MP13 is efficient at MAX DPS gearlevel) . So he is farming at more efficiency than the regular game when he's playing at MP11 and MP12.
    To get there, he'd have to wade through MP0-MP10 of the dungeon, which Blizzard can make sure takes, say 60minutes. Then he farms the MP11-MP12 area for, say, 30 minutes and then hits MP13, where he's, again, inefficient.
    That guy just wasted his time if all he wanted was efficient farming. Another player looking for a challenge and also a bit of a reward in the end, did not waste his time (because he replaced efficiency with 'looking for a challenge').

    Still not clear?
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