My concern with the endless dungeon is that some people want it to be a separate game mode or something you can quickly access via an NPC, in game object, or even portal. I think this is the wrong way to go about it because this will eliminate desire for the dungeons and a week after the patch the forums will be flooded with "Well those were fun for a week, bye Diablo III" threads.
Why would we waste Blizzard's time implementing something that is OBVIOUSLY inefficient? Do people's ePeens hurt that hard for distinction that we need this mode?
To me, it seems that the heart of the problem is that there's an assumption that we NEED an endless dungeon, when that very feature is the only thing that creates these problems to begin with.
Besides, if you just want to know rankings, then why not a no-loot endless dungeon that's done PURELY for sport and not for profit? Wouldn't that suffice? Acquire your gear through standard gameplay then go to the endless dungeon to test your mettle. Doesn't that accomplish exactly what you want without changing the focus of the game one bit?
I think the simple solution to making it both more rewarding than normal farm locations, but not invalidating the "normal" runs we're doing now is to relegate it to a bonus round mechanic like the Infernal Machine is.
Okay, here's my problem with all of that.
What's the functional difference between a bonus endless dungeon and a stage where you stand in one room and all the mobs charge in at you? Once we get to that point, what's the functional difference between THAT, and just having the devs give you a constant stream of free exp and loot per second up to a certain point, which would correspond to when you finally die in said room.
That's all everyone wants from the endless dungeon, apparently, just a way to rapidly gain experience and loot without having to explore. There's no getting around the fact that it will pretty much invalidate the rest of the D3 experience.
Ok, so how about it becomes a bonus round mechanic? We've turned D3 from an action rpg to an arcadey 2013 remake of Super Smash TV ("I'd buy THAT for a dollar!"). The comparison to the Uberbosses is a false one, because the Ubers are NOT a bonus round. They're a specific objective. You don't usually 'farm' Ubers for money, gear, and exp (unless you're ridiculously geared) - you farm them for their Hellfire Ring mats. Their rewards are not 'better', they're 'DIFFERENT'.
To sum it up, I hate the idea of the endless dungeon as it stands right now. Most of its proponents claims it'll improve the game, but face it, they just want legalized botting. If you're too lazy to explore, click on waypoints, and use town portal, I'm sure there's another action rpg out there for you.
I am pretty sure the consensus here is not that an Endless Dungeon would be 'terrible for the longevity of Diablo 3' ..
To me an endless dungeon would be a system that could be the following:
1) An alternative to the current game mode. Similair to PVP in that the main thing gained from playing these modes are GLORY - NOT REWARD. If you make it a reward system then you replace Inferno if it is more effecient to gain items/gold/experience etc
2) An improved version of the Ladder System in D2- Who can get down to the furthest level? Cheehc has reached Level 982 etc...
3) Is a hardcore system in that - you login to a new game -> start at level 1 dungeon as a level 1 charcter-> your progress ends when you die or logoff-> then start again and try and go futher than your old record/other peoples record.
4) Doing 3 eliminates the AH from the equation..
5) Removes any point for Botters to participate in this game mode
Or an alternative to point 3..
Softcore endless dungeon- You can die and logout/in as many times as you want and not lose progression. You cannot use AH, Trade, or drop items to party members in this game mode (character bound drops/items). Endless dungeon ladder system is reset every few months..
1) An alternative to the current game mode. Similair to PVP in that the main thing gained from playing these modes are GLORY - NOT REWARD. If you make it a reward system then you replace Inferno if it is more effecient to gain items/gold/experience etc
2) An improved version of the Ladder System in D2- Who can get down to the furthest level? Cheehc has reached Level 982 etc...
I agree with you there and I think that under those two stipulations an endless dungeon could, actually, add something to the game. I am honestly skeptical because I think that the majority of people who want an endless dungeon would not want it if it didn't drop loot. I think that the majority of people who keep parrotting "D3 needs an endless dungeon" really just want "enhanced farming mode" and very little would dissuade me of that opinion short of Blizzard implementing it with no loot, no XP, and people not complaining about it.
That being said, I do think that a "glory only" endless dungeon actually provides a better-than-ladder "competition" for people to engage in without otherwise altering the actual game. I mean when you played ladder toons it didn't give you better farming, it was simply a separate pool of characters. The game, inherently, remained the same save for a few runewords and uniques. A "glory only" endless dungeon would, essentially, provide the same general function without segregating characters, which, IMO, is a good thing. I've never been a fan of continually subdividing characters.
I don't think that no-AH is really what a "proving grounds" needs, though. I think it simply should be a place where you go to test how badass your character is, regardless of where you got your gear.
I think that the majority of people who keep parrotting "D3 needs an endless dungeon" really just want "enhanced farming mode" and very little would dissuade me of that opinion short of Blizzard implementing it with no loot, no XP, and people not complaining about it.
1) An alternative to the current game mode. Similair to PVP in that the main thing gained from playing these modes are GLORY - NOT REWARD. If you make it a reward system then you replace Inferno if it is more effecient to gain items/gold/experience etc
2) An improved version of the Ladder System in D2- Who can get down to the furthest level? Cheehc has reached Level 982 etc...
I agree with you there and I think that under those two stipulations an endless dungeon could, actually, add something to the game. I am honestly skeptical because I think that the majority of people who want an endless dungeon would not want it if it didn't drop loot. I think that the majority of people who keep parrotting "D3 needs an endless dungeon" really just want "enhanced farming mode" and very little would dissuade me of that opinion short of Blizzard implementing it with no loot, no XP, and people not complaining about it.
That being said, I do think that a "glory only" endless dungeon actually provides a better-than-ladder "competition" for people to engage in without otherwise altering the actual game. I mean when you played ladder toons it didn't give you better farming, it was simply a separate pool of characters. The game, inherently, remained the same save for a few runewords and uniques. A "glory only" endless dungeon would, essentially, provide the same general function without segregating characters, which, IMO, is a good thing. I've never been a fan of continually subdividing characters.
I don't think that no-AH is really what a "proving grounds" needs, though. I think it simply should be a place where you go to test how badass your character is, regardless of where you got your gear.
Yeah "enhanced faming mode" does seem the drive for some.
To me the endless dungeon is a 'solution' best fitted to address the problem a portion of the playerbase have of there not being a Ladder system in D3.
If people want improved farming/new content to run for reward - There are better ideas that can be implemented.. one of which is a full scale expansion..
I say no AH because for a Ladder system I think it should be a even playing field, in that the idea -should be a coupled with it being a 'Self Found' mode.
It's Diablo, not a roguelike, and I don't ever want it to be some kind of hipster indie game clone. The solution should be dungeon content quality, not quantity.
While I can certainly agree with the fact that quality is (far) better than quantity, I still have this feeling that Diablo *is* directly descended from Rogue, Moria, Nethack et al.
Fuck. YES.
Okay, here's my problem with all of that.
What's the functional difference between a bonus endless dungeon and a stage where you stand in one room and all the mobs charge in at you? Once we get to that point, what's the functional difference between THAT, and just having the devs give you a constant stream of free exp and loot per second up to a certain point, which would correspond to when you finally die in said room.
That's all everyone wants from the endless dungeon, apparently, just a way to rapidly gain experience and loot without having to explore. There's no getting around the fact that it will pretty much invalidate the rest of the D3 experience.
Ok, so how about it becomes a bonus round mechanic? We've turned D3 from an action rpg to an arcadey 2013 remake of Super Smash TV ("I'd buy THAT for a dollar!"). The comparison to the Uberbosses is a false one, because the Ubers are NOT a bonus round. They're a specific objective. You don't usually 'farm' Ubers for money, gear, and exp (unless you're ridiculously geared) - you farm them for their Hellfire Ring mats. Their rewards are not 'better', they're 'DIFFERENT'.
To sum it up, I hate the idea of the endless dungeon as it stands right now. Most of its proponents claims it'll improve the game, but face it, they just want legalized botting. If you're too lazy to explore, click on waypoints, and use town portal, I'm sure there's another action rpg out there for you.
I'm going to delete the last post if there's no point to it (maybe I'm missing it).
I am pretty sure the consensus here is not that an Endless Dungeon would be 'terrible for the longevity of Diablo 3' ..
To me an endless dungeon would be a system that could be the following:
1) An alternative to the current game mode. Similair to PVP in that the main thing gained from playing these modes are GLORY - NOT REWARD. If you make it a reward system then you replace Inferno if it is more effecient to gain items/gold/experience etc
2) An improved version of the Ladder System in D2- Who can get down to the furthest level? Cheehc has reached Level 982 etc...
3) Is a hardcore system in that - you login to a new game -> start at level 1 dungeon as a level 1 charcter-> your progress ends when you die or logoff-> then start again and try and go futher than your old record/other peoples record.
4) Doing 3 eliminates the AH from the equation..
5) Removes any point for Botters to participate in this game mode
Softcore endless dungeon- You can die and logout/in as many times as you want and not lose progression. You cannot use AH, Trade, or drop items to party members in this game mode (character bound drops/items). Endless dungeon ladder system is reset every few months..
I agree with you there and I think that under those two stipulations an endless dungeon could, actually, add something to the game. I am honestly skeptical because I think that the majority of people who want an endless dungeon would not want it if it didn't drop loot. I think that the majority of people who keep parrotting "D3 needs an endless dungeon" really just want "enhanced farming mode" and very little would dissuade me of that opinion short of Blizzard implementing it with no loot, no XP, and people not complaining about it.
That being said, I do think that a "glory only" endless dungeon actually provides a better-than-ladder "competition" for people to engage in without otherwise altering the actual game. I mean when you played ladder toons it didn't give you better farming, it was simply a separate pool of characters. The game, inherently, remained the same save for a few runewords and uniques. A "glory only" endless dungeon would, essentially, provide the same general function without segregating characters, which, IMO, is a good thing. I've never been a fan of continually subdividing characters.
I don't think that no-AH is really what a "proving grounds" needs, though. I think it simply should be a place where you go to test how badass your character is, regardless of where you got your gear.
Testify, brother.
Yeah "enhanced faming mode" does seem the drive for some.
To me the endless dungeon is a 'solution' best fitted to address the problem a portion of the playerbase have of there not being a Ladder system in D3.
If people want improved farming/new content to run for reward - There are better ideas that can be implemented.. one of which is a full scale expansion..
I say no AH because for a Ladder system I think it should be a even playing field, in that the idea -should be a coupled with it being a 'Self Found' mode.
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Taliesyn-2517/hero/66020932