This thread was automatically marked as Locked.

So.. is there any release date of this "extremely long hot fix"?.

  • #21
    Quote from Jamoose

    Quote from Zero(pS)

    Quote from Indimix

    It's not a trolling title, I can't understand how these minors (yes, minors) changes are taking so damn long.

    Are you (or do you know) a professional programmer? If yes, do you (does he) know the Diablo 3 coding inside out to be able to understand how much work it takes to "tweak" those minor changes? Are you (or do you know) a professional game developer in a huge company with high quality standards? If yes, how many meetings does it take to make decisions on skill balance changes? And how many people have to be working on that? What's the ideal development time for these changes?

    How many people do you think are working on patch 1.0.8? Everyone from the D3 developer team? How many are working on an expansion already (and trying to solve some of the big "problems" that people have with the game as well as coming up with new, interesting content)? How many are instead working on the itemization patch, or legendaries?

    Not a trolling reply - legit questions.


    Yes, I'm actually a software engineer, and if they did their work properly, they should have a nicely done map/mob editor showing every single piece of data they could ever need to make their balances now and in 10 years from now.

    My guess is, they rushed the game in a way that not only the game was flawed, but the codebase too, and now they need to refactor a lot and build tools that don't even exist, like a map & mob editor.
  • #22
    Quote from Indimix

    Quote from Jamoose

    Quote from Zero(pS)

    Quote from Indimix

    It's not a trolling title, I can't understand how these minors (yes, minors) changes are taking so damn long.

    Are you (or do you know) a professional programmer? If yes, do you (does he) know the Diablo 3 coding inside out to be able to understand how much work it takes to "tweak" those minor changes? Are you (or do you know) a professional game developer in a huge company with high quality standards? If yes, how many meetings does it take to make decisions on skill balance changes? And how many people have to be working on that? What's the ideal development time for these changes?

    How many people do you think are working on patch 1.0.8? Everyone from the D3 developer team? How many are working on an expansion already (and trying to solve some of the big "problems" that people have with the game as well as coming up with new, interesting content)? How many are instead working on the itemization patch, or legendaries?

    Not a trolling reply - legit questions.


    Yes, I'm actually a software engineer, and if they did their work properly, they should have a nicely done map/mob editor showing every single piece of data they could ever need to make their balances now and in 10 years from now.

    My guess is, they rushed the game in a way that not only the game was flawed, but the codebase too, and now they need to refactor a lot and build tools that don't even exist, like a map & mob editor.


    You do understand the mobs are random, right? It's not like they can just open up an editor and say "mob packs go here, here and here." It's impossible for us to know how much work it actually takes to make those changes without inside knowledge of their systems. More importantly, choosing the best mob density is a difficult game design problem that requires iteration, as we've seen. Things would be very different if they had one dude who knew what was best and everybody else just had to listen.
  • #23
    Quote from Zero(pS)

    My intent was solely to have people reason about their emotion-based statements before throwing them out there.


    You are spot on. I was just trying to strengthen your point. There is much more to be accomplished by a software team than the end user will ever know. That's sort of the point.

    I can say this much. The members of the Diablo 3 development team are just as frustrated with the speed of progress as you are. Believe that.

    At the end of the day, the developers answer to management, the management answers to upper management, the upper management answers to the executives and the executives answer to the ... shareholders!

    TL,DR:
    The developers are not in charge of their own destiny. In every software company, there are inevitably obstacles beyond the control of the development team that block productivity. [Sources:] (1) every Dilbert comic ever (2) the movie Office Space (3) every joke I've ever heard about middle management (4) my life
  • #24
    Quote from DeepThought

    Quote from Zero(pS)

    My intent was solely to have people reason about their emotion-based statements before throwing them out there.



    At the end of the day, the developers answer to management, the management answers to upper management, the upper management answers to the executives and the executives answer to the ... shareholders!

    TL,DR:
    The developers are not in charge of their own destiny. In every software company, there are inevitably obstacles beyond the control of the development team that block productivity. [Sources:] (1) every Dilbert comic ever (2) the movie Office Space (3) every joke I've ever heard about middle management (4) my life


    Actually Blizzard's employees answer to Morhaime, Pearce and Adham, maybe Pardo and Metzen. All programmers, not suits. They don't even answer to Activision or shareholders. It's part of the deal they signed.
  • #25
    Quote from Indimix

    Quote from Jamoose

    Quote from Zero(pS)

    Quote from Indimix

    It's not a trolling title, I can't understand how these minors (yes, minors) changes are taking so damn long.

    Are you (or do you know) a professional programmer? If yes, do you (does he) know the Diablo 3 coding inside out to be able to understand how much work it takes to "tweak" those minor changes? Are you (or do you know) a professional game developer in a huge company with high quality standards? If yes, how many meetings does it take to make decisions on skill balance changes? And how many people have to be working on that? What's the ideal development time for these changes?

    How many people do you think are working on patch 1.0.8? Everyone from the D3 developer team? How many are working on an expansion already (and trying to solve some of the big "problems" that people have with the game as well as coming up with new, interesting content)? How many are instead working on the itemization patch, or legendaries?

    Not a trolling reply - legit questions.


    Yes, I'm actually a software engineer, and if they did their work properly, they should have a nicely done map/mob editor showing every single piece of data they could ever need to make their balances now and in 10 years from now.

    My guess is, they rushed the game in a way that not only the game was flawed, but the codebase too, and now they need to refactor a lot and build tools that don't even exist, like a map & mob editor.


    Really.
  • #26
    Quote from lalaurentide

    Actually Blizzard's employees answer to Morhaime, Pearce and Adham, maybe Pardo and Metzen. All programmers, not suits. They don't even answer to Activision or shareholders. It's part of the deal they signed.


    They don't answer to Activision, but they sure as fuck answer to Vivendi.

    Quote from Indimix

    Yes, I'm actually a software engineer, and if they did their work properly, they should have a nicely done map/mob editor showing every single piece of data they could ever need to make their balances now and in 10 years from now.


    Then you know that it's stupid to play this one off as if it's something that can be fixed by a code monkey reading the forums, hearing some guy bitch about monster density, and pulling a Mad Max and going vigilante, showing up for work early, firing up some in-house "mob editor," tweaking a few values, and pushing a patch live before his boss comes in to work.

    Because, in all honesty, while it may be quick to implement some of the changes, as a software developer you know that there is red tape. There are meetings, there are project leads who have to OK ideas, there is documentation that has to be maintained, patch notes which have to be compiled, there is internal testing that has to be done before external testing can be done. And there are only eight hours in a day and the work is still done by humans who get stuck in traffic, who call out sick, who take vacations, who have to break for lunch and to take a piss now and then, who have to respond to phone calls, who have to answer emails, etc.

    As a software developer you know very well that a significant portion of the time is taken up not by someone actually making the changes but by a group of people sitting down and talking about what the problem is and how to best address it and that the guy who is implementing the changes is almost certainly not the guy who is authorized to make the decision on what the changes should be. Sometimes you're sitting around waiting for a particular piece of art to be delivered from the art department. Sometimes the boss has an emergency in his family and is unavailable for a day and the project gets pushed back some.

    And that's all assuming that "monster density" is the only feature in the patch, which it isn't. Every little feature requires face time in the meeting room and then development time and then internal testing and then external testing.

    Just look at the Firebats change. The way the PTR was snapshotted they only got half the change (the mana cost) in for one PTR build. The damage changes didn't make it til the next one which essentially made it pointless to really test the changes until the subsequent build hit the PTR. That, as unfortunate as it may be, is REALITY. Things rarely go smoothly, there are small bumps in the road like that on a daily basis.

    This is LIFE, though. We deal with imperfection in every single thing we do. Hell, this post is imperfect in some manner - probably some punctuation mistake somewhere. That is the essence of HUMANITY though. We are imperfect creatures living in an imperfect world. Demanding what amounts to perfection is just not going to happen. The sooner you give up the insane idea that, in a utopian world, monster density could have been fixed in 12 nanoseconds, the sooner you'll stop being such a grouchy person who isn't satisfied by anything.
    p450 :: 92.2k EK :: 2.54m TK
    Planet Express <PlanEx>
    (V) (°,,°) (V)
  • #27
    Quote from Indimix

    Yes, I'm actually a software engineer, and if they did their work properly, they should have a nicely done map/mob editor showing every single piece of data they could ever need to make their balances now and in 10 years from now.

    How arrogant are you? Again, you probably have absolutely no idea how their engine is coded, and maybe even zero experience in developing triple A games, and you wanna talk about how well done it is?

    And apparently one of the biggest (if not "the" biggest) games developer company in the world has crappy recruitment standards as well. They hire weak amateur programmers who have no idea what they're doing, right?

    Quote from Zero(pS)

    Are you (or do you know) a professional programmer? If yes, do you (does he) know the Diablo 3 coding inside out (!!!) to be able to [remotely] understand how much work it takes to "tweak" those minor changes? Are you (or do you know) a professional game developer (!!!) in a huge company with high quality standards?

    I've made things a bit easier by highlighting the main points.

    If yes, how many meetings does it take to make decisions on skill balance changes? And how many people have to be working on that? What's the ideal development time for these changes?

    How many people do you think are working on patch 1.0.8? Everyone from the D3 developer team? How many are working on an expansion already (and trying to solve some of the big "problems" that people have with the game as well as coming up with new, interesting content)? How many are instead working on the itemization patch, or legendaries?

    Let me know when you're going to answer these as well. Seems convenient to just reply to the 1% of the question in a way that gives you "some" credit (by saying you're a software engineer) and ignore all the other factors.
  • #28
    Quote from Indimix

    Yes, I'm actually a software engineer, and if they did their work properly, they should have a nicely done map/mob editor showing every single piece of data they could ever need to make their balances now and in 10 years from now.


    Even though we disagree often, I respect everything that you say. But when I read this post, I was just like "WTF"? It eludes me how you, despite claiming to be familiar with programming, don't understand how difficult it is to change this. Diablo 3 is not a "20 lines of code game" where you can simply change one variable "mobDensityScaleFactor = 1.4;".
  • #29
    Sounds like a whole lot of Monday Morning Quarterbacks are spewing off BS in this thread again. If you think Blizzard has like 200 programmers dedicated to this one game, you're sorely mistaken, at best I bet they've probably got about 10 handling fixes, patches, updates, etc. The rest are probably working on the expansion. Changes take time, and everyone who complains, if you've bought games from this company should know by now that they'll release it when its ready, and not a moment before. Why do you think they don't give dates? They release games when they feel its ready. (cue d3 taking x amount of years and a revamp to come out, and based on feedback, it came out way too unpolished)

    As others have stated, there are about 10-15 different hats being tossed into this mix when you consider patches. You've got developers, project managers, QA, Testers, Analysts, DBA's, Network/System administrators, etc all involved. Yes its a messy system, but its a system of checks and balances to ensure that shit gets done.

    As for the OP who stated he's waiting to come back...if you never enjoyed the hack n slash-rinse and repeat part of this game I highly doubt this patch is going to be your saving grace.
  • #30
    Quote from Bagstone

    It eludes me how you, despite claiming to be familiar with programming, don't understand how difficult it is to change this. Diablo 3 is not a "20 lines of code game" where you can simply change one variable "mobDensityScaleFactor = 1.4;".


    The lack of a game engine editor is not exactly a redeeming point. It seems odd to me, that if blizzard in the development phase, did not think to create an editor to their own game engine.

    It borders on being the worst argument i have seen so far.

    If they when making the game, gave any thought to a expansion, then they would have had to code the engine so it could be edited, else they would have to recode everything for when making the expansion.

    Want to change anything​ to accommodate the expansion without an editor? recode recode recode.

    I doubt blizzard is that old fashioned, and i doubt they just threw out what they learned when coding WoW
  • #31
    Quote from Zero(pS)

    @DeepThought: thanks for the insight. My intent was solely to have people reason about their emotion-based statements before throwing them out there.

    Quote from bruteMax

    I think we're all guessing. No one knows if it is trivial to alter mob density, nor does anyone know if it's difficult either.

    Bingo! Speculating about things that are beyong our cognitive limits mostly leads to frustration.

    When are humans going to travel through time? When will we be able to travel through space (teleport)? When will God take a human form (if you believe in God) and come solve all earthly problems? Is there life after death? Do we reincarnate? These are all waaaay beyond our current cognitive and scientific capabilities.

    The frustration lies in Blizzard's intransigence at recognizing D3's massive design defficiencies despite the howls of protest from their own community.

    The "howls of protest" say they should keep WotB as it is. They also ask the AH to be removed. Some of them want a full overhaul of the game back into its D2 state, or to have features from other games copied into D3. It's not as simple as people make these things appear to be.

    And lets not speak about Blizzard having high standards. If they did have such standards, D3 would have been delayed well beyond its May/12 release date.

    I obviously meant "high programming standards", as in double, triple-checked for bugs. Let's not confuse conscient design decisions that took years of iterating (and that some people don't like) with "quality programming standards".


    I think comparing speculation on Blizzard sw development cycles to existential questions diminishes your argument. Deepthought detailed a pretty common development environment for the IT industry in an earlier reply, and I doubt Blizzard's strays much from that.

    It's pretty clear D3 missed the mark from a design standpoint; itemization was a huge miss, inferno was a miss that they've backtracked on over a number of patches, the lack of PvP and the meagre mea culpa in the form of Brawling was a huge miss, and Act 3 amounting to the 'end game' is also a miss.

    So while I'm not saying Blizzard should react to every post-du-jour on the forums, it's pretty clear that bigger issues than a future WotB nerf have beset D3 since release. Blizzard released a flawed game from a design standpoint, and this was made clear to them by their customers within a month or two of D3's release. That they are only responding to them now, let alone on the verge of releasing anything, is a testament to how lethargic they are as a development house.

    And that is my point, that Blizzard should have recognized and reacted much more quickly to the piss-poor itemization and lack of an endgame. I'm willing to bet that Jay Wilson got in the way of a lot of clear thinking in the weeks following D3's release.
  • #32
    Software engineer is a very broad term these days. People who make puzzle games on iPhone call themselves software engineers.

    By the way even if the changes in the code did take 5 minutes to do, (I don't know I only made it through two years of engineering school before switching because becoming a real software engineer is not easy) they still have to feel it out.

    There is also other stuff being implemented in the patch which could be holding it up. Just a thought
  • #33
    It's clear that almost everyone who posts here are no software developers, and this kind of conversation can't be maintained without entering into details.

    *IF* they had a map/mob/wtvcontentyouwanttochange editor, this change (AFAIK the only significant change in the patch) could be made in 2 weeks testing included.

    Actually, the testers would be the ones who make this change, and they will feed their devs with all their game experience. They don't even need to manually do anything, since all the mob positioning is random.

    This is not an arrogant comment, this is understanding how a well done piece of software works.

    That's why I guess they don't have any kind of editor because of the rushed nature of the game.
  • #34
    Soon!


    Soon: Copyright 2004-2013 Blizzard Entertainment, Inc. All rights reserved. "Soon" does not imply any particular date, time, decade, century, or millennia in the past, present, and certainly not the future. "Soon" shall make no contract or warranty between Blizzard Entertainment and the end user. "Soon" will arrive some day, Blizzard does guarantee that "soon" will be here before the end of time. Maybe. Do not make plans based on "soon" as Blizzard will not be liable for any misuse, use, or even casual glancing at "soon."
  • #35
    Quote from Indimix

    It's clear that almost everyone who posts here are no software developers, and this kind of conversation can't be maintained without entering into details.

    *IF* they had a map/mob/wtvcontentyouwanttochange editor, this change (AFAIK the only significant change in the patch) could be made in 2 weeks testing included.

    Actually, the testers would be the ones who make this change, and they will feed their devs with all their game experience. They don't even need to manually do anything, since all the mob positioning is random.

    This is not an arrogant comment, this is understanding how a well done piece of software works.

    That's why I guess they don't have any kind of editor because of the rushed nature of the game.


    The hell are you talking about? Of course they have an editor, it's called developer mode. In order to edit ANYTHING, you need an 'editor'.

    Please, it's been said a couple times now but you don't listen; It's not as simple as raising a value to X amount of monsters and then releasing. You can read the rest of the thread that you started so I won't repeat everything, but there's FAR more iteration that needs to be done to change up THREE acts worth of maps, and make sure every part of it works and doesn't break, before throwing it on live servers.

    Just, calm down. You're acting like an entitled brat.
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChB2_IPc-HVXbi0jS1Riljg
    ^ YouTube.Com/IceBleuGaming ! It's a thing! Check it oooout!
  • #36
    Why are people even talking like Blizzard cant edit things fast, thereby concluding they don't have an editor or whatever.

    Afaik, nothing we have seen points toward it taking more than a minute (not literally) to change mob density in the game?
    But that obviously doesn't mean they can release said change in a minute - since they want to make sure the change is the "right one" in their minds.

    In any case, I do think Blizzard is working extremely slowly with the changes.
    I'd be slightly surprised if the programming/coding/editor/whatever process were the reason for that though.
  • #37
    Quote from Shadout

    Why are people even talking like Blizzard cant edit things fast, thereby concluding they don't have an editor or whatever.



    Some of the wilder bugs back in early WoW were hotfixed within 12 hours, so I dont hope that anyone seriously claims that they cant edit fast.

    As others have said, there is mroe to changing than just switching the value in the .ini file.
  • #38
    Quote from Bleu42

    Quote from Indimix

    It's clear that almost everyone who posts here are no software developers, and this kind of conversation can't be maintained without entering into details.

    *IF* they had a map/mob/wtvcontentyouwanttochange editor, this change (AFAIK the only significant change in the patch) could be made in 2 weeks testing included.

    Actually, the testers would be the ones who make this change, and they will feed their devs with all their game experience. They don't even need to manually do anything, since all the mob positioning is random.

    This is not an arrogant comment, this is understanding how a well done piece of software works.

    That's why I guess they don't have any kind of editor because of the rushed nature of the game.


    The hell are you talking about? Of course they have an editor, it's called developer mode. In order to edit ANYTHING, you need an 'editor'.

    Please, it's been said a couple times now but you don't listen; It's not as simple as raising a value to X amount of monsters and then releasing. You can read the rest of the thread that you started so I won't repeat everything, but there's FAR more iteration that needs to be done to change up THREE acts worth of maps, and make sure every part of it works and doesn't break, before throwing it on live servers.

    Just, calm down. You're acting like an entitled brat.


    Quote an official source for your claim then, that proves that they have indeed an editor that servers this purpose.

    And also notice, that I've said it was my guess, while you are assuring they do have one.
  • #39
    As someone who does QA for a living it's always hillarious to me how little people appreciate how much even the smallest change can screw up everything. Even well written code can sometimes break completely when a valid change is made.
    The joke around here is that the big changes never seem to be a problem, but the little ones will take weeks to fix all the issues found.
  • #40
    Quote from Indimix

    Quote from Jamoose

    Quote from Zero(pS)

    Quote from Indimix

    It's not a trolling title, I can't understand how these minors (yes, minors) changes are taking so damn long.

    Are you (or do you know) a professional programmer? If yes, do you (does he) know the Diablo 3 coding inside out to be able to understand how much work it takes to "tweak" those minor changes? Are you (or do you know) a professional game developer in a huge company with high quality standards? If yes, how many meetings does it take to make decisions on skill balance changes? And how many people have to be working on that? What's the ideal development time for these changes?

    How many people do you think are working on patch 1.0.8? Everyone from the D3 developer team? How many are working on an expansion already (and trying to solve some of the big "problems" that people have with the game as well as coming up with new, interesting content)? How many are instead working on the itemization patch, or legendaries?

    Not a trolling reply - legit questions.


    Yes, I'm actually a software engineer, and if they did their work properly, they should have a nicely done map/mob editor showing every single piece of data they could ever need to make their balances now and in 10 years from now.

    My guess is, they rushed the game in a way that not only the game was flawed, but the codebase too, and now they need to refactor a lot and build tools that don't even exist, like a map & mob editor.


    This is one of the most ignorant statements I've heard about software development. I'd love to follow you around your job and when someone asks you for an update that is perceived to be "easy" and you say it's not that easy I'm going to tell you that you suck at your job.
  • To post a comment, please or register a new account.
Posts Quoted:
Reply
Clear All Quotes