That single bit of the manifesto was sufficient to keep me from ever caring about PoE going into the future. The only reason they have desynchs at this point is because of the insanely-complex pathing algorithm they need since players and monsters cannot walk through each other (the algorithm is sufficiently complex that, apparently, the client and server disagree frequently when there are roadblocks like doorways and multiple mobs on the screen that may get in each others way). Apparently they believe that allowing players and monsters to run through each other is too casual or something, and that justifies "fixing" desynchs by introducing intermittant rubberbanding.
I get that they don't want to make D3. I get that they're not even trying to make D2. But what I don't get is why you'd keep a system in the game that is causing such severe and widespread gameplay repercussions, especially coupled with loss of XP on death and loss of hardcore toons. People hated losing hardcore toons to rubberbanding in D3, yet in PoE rubberbanding is "good." Are you fucking joking?
Is the game suddenly going to become less-good if players can run through monsters? No.
Is the game suddenly going to become better if people don't have to worry that any action is going to cause them to desynch? Yes.
This is the most cut-and-dry issue that PoE has, and the developers collective answer is to bury their head in the sand and basically ignore it and to tell us that rubberbanding (which is basically unacceptable in any online experience) is "good."
Fuck them. That level of arrogance doesn't fly with me. They have received such negative feedback about desynch and even more negative feedback about using rubberbanding to "fix" the situation.
Entities can hit each other from a long distance away
This is exactly what happens in D3. I don't know if they designed it this way specifically as an anti-desync measure or not. I think having this happen is a problem, though not a particularly large one, and certainly not worse than desync. It was really only a minor irritation in D3.
There's no chance to hit - all hits occur for sure
I mentioned this earlier in the thread but I don't think to-hit is a particularly valuable mechanic. It's just a modifier on DPS and there are many other ways to modify DPS.
Here's another from the same thread and a response from another player:
As far as desync goes, all ARPGs may do the prediction as you state, but for all it's other design flaws, Diablo 3 managed to resolve desync without any visible effects 99.999% of the time. Claiming working well in 99% of the cases means jack when there are 200 interactions/second. Generally playing solo, I cannot play for more than about 2 minutes without seeing BIG desync effects- such as firing at an enemy for several seconds before it turns out the enemy wasn't there at all. And that's playing solo. And it only gets worse playing with a party. And- my hat is off to anyone who actually plays a melee, because it's absolutely devastating for melee characters. I played several characters in Diablo 3, and I would once in a few days see serious spikes of rubber banding due to major server latency spikes, but normal day to day play never let us see a HINT of desync. A decade before, Diablo II did it as well. My friends who've played torchlight 2 report it suffers no such effects for online play. I don't know what you're doing differently, but your claim that this is darn near impossible to solve cannot be true- it has been visibly solved in other games which have been here before you.
I'm giving up on PoE unless you *really* fix desync. You claim you want a challenging game, and in higher level play, a single death will wipe out hours or even days of effort, yet desync singlehandedly ensures that you must play very low-risk and/or be substantially overgeared if you want to make levelling progress. Your skill as a player is < desync.
I hope you figure out what needs to be done to fix it, as otherwise I really like the game. With desync the way it is, the frustration factor outweighs the fun. I don't want to be angry when I die because the client lied to me.
As i understand what Chris/GGG said: most problems regarding to desync are related to there idea of hardcore, So in my opinion its not something that will be fixed. Maybe if they start to look at there attitude towards good game play and change what 'hardcore' should be..
One of the ways D3 handles desync is that if the enemies begin their swing with you in range, you will always get hit, even if you are well out of range by the time the swing ends. Now whether that tradeoff is better or worse than POE's sync flaws, I can't say. I do think one thing that also really helps D3 is that attacks (especially Melee) feel much more impactful. I do think getting rid of the melee accuracy stat really helps D3.
Agreed on the lack of accuracy being a good thing (as I've said in this thread before). Also, the D3 "hit even if not in range" thing never really bothered me. It's certainly preferable to desync.
I could go on and on with people saying they'd prefer no accuracy rating, or the "get hit even if you move out of melee range after the attack animation has started" stuff. People don't want desynch and they don't want rubberbanding - to the extent that they'd accept D3 mechanics in the game to mitigate it. As one user stated, the D3 methods aren't perfect, but at least you can learn to adapt to them. You can't learn to adapt to the client and server randomly desynching outside of forcequitting the game or hoping that /oos helps you out.
There is ways to make it so we can do this and that hacking is unviable. It is a lot of work but this is what GGG should do to truly define ARPG's, for how they should feel.
Reading the manifesto has really put a downer on playing PoE knowing that the desynch thing will never be fixed. It is even more worrying that rubber banding was stated as if it was good/okay.
Those that say that it is impossible to have a working game client side due to hackers have taken the defeatist attitude. They will paint you a picture of 1000's of automated hackers looting non-stop - but the fact is, it never has to be this way with proper implementation.
I want to like PoE, but the developers stance on desynch (and rubberbanding as a "solution") has me completely disinterested in ANYTHING they do. It's a mission-critical problem and they're brushing it off as if it's not even a blip on the radar. You cannot have a game on the internet where you're basically laying down and accepting desynch/rubberbanding as necessary. It's completely asinine and it insults the intelligence of the players.
People have complained that GGG isn't prioritizing important problems (desynch, melee balance, etc.) over adding microtransactions. This particular response has been almost universally-panned by the community and the PoE forums aren't laden with trolls like the offical D3 ones are. They have received countless posts saying that rubberbanding is NOT the right solution. What will determine if I have any interest in PoE going to the future is whether or not they actually listen to the players on this one and take a different approach to this problem... or if they continue to go down the "rubberbanding is good" path.
The former will get me to pay attention and be interested in the game. The latter, well... not good.
EDIT
This guy summed up exactly why desynchs happen due to the pathing system. It's a pretty good read to get your head wrapped around the problem.
Your input is not deterministic and the whole system is very condition-dependent. Sure, if the server waited for every input, it would work. That's the system for MOBAs, it just introduces delay. They don't want that.
The server has to take a decision for pathing every mob. It does that BEFORE getting your precise input. The client does the same, separately.
Since GGG chose to have 1) High mob density 2) Full collision between EVERY entity 3) cluttered maps with chokepoints and obstacles 4) "subtle" pathing (whatever that means, probably a complex, semi-random algorithm)
there is VERY little chance of the two being in sync.
It works in simple situations (a group of skeletons in a plain, for example, with you approaching slowly or not moving) and breaks down when you have a dozen of mobs, some fast moving, in a small room with rocks in the middle (the Pyramid) One mob moves, block another, which has to change pathing etc. It's a cascade system, chaotic by design.
Even if you started from the same conditions, latency would automatically make the two states diverge. GGG knew that and decided to implement it nonetheless. And implement conditions that would make it worse. (Bottlenecks, WB on rock monsters etc..) And make the melee system require precise positioning despite their system not giving it in many conditions THEY created.
Like their post said, they're not willing to compromize on their "hardcore mechanics" even if faced with the law of physics. Player experience has to take bottom place. "Hardcoreness" comes first.
So Blizzard spent what amounted to 4-6 months undoing those things and rebalancing Inferno to something that was more logical and then introducing MP for the leet people. Imagine if they never made that SINGULAR design decision and the game shipped with Inferno balanced as it was in 1.0.5 or 1.0.6. Imagine if every other patch came roughly 6 months faster because of this. We'd have our itemization patch already, along with whatever is next in line.
I was really looking forward to the super hard Inferno difficulty that would have required me a large amount of time farming Act 3/4 Hell difficulty. The problem was they made max level 60 and expect you to hit it at or before you finishing Act 4 Hell difficulty. Thus there was no "need" to sit on that difficulty and get experience for more levels. Which made people think they could just instantly go into Inferno difficulty and continue progression as they had with Normal -> Nightmare -> Hell.
The other problem with this, is that the gear that dropped from Act 3/4 Hell difficulty was absolute shit for low-to-mid 50's, making it impossible to farm it for gear at level 60 to get you ready for Inferno.
What if they made max level 80-100 and required you to be max level AND have good gear. This would have required people to farm Act 3/4 Hell difficulty for quite a few months not only to get max level, but also to get the gear for Inferno. Which could then have the uber legendary/set items that would allow them to clear further into Inferno acts.
So I think it was less about designing content for the completely hardcores and more about just offering some sort of challenging end-game. Except they completely messed up progression with levels and gear, how and where it drops, and how players perceived progression to work.
I've built 7 characters so far that got between level 50 and 75 and every single playthrough has been entirely different.
... Different builds. Different items. Different support gems. I guess the flasks are the same.
...
Yet due to the game systems, you can pick any skill in the game and create a build around it. It won't be the most efficient but it's doable. The difference is you can't just go to town, change a few skills and voila, not have to work on it.
You can do all that in D3.
But just because you don't absolutely HAVE to level up a new character to try new skills/builds, then you don't do it. If you enjoy the restraint that much, why no apply it yourself? Why does the developer have to apply it to you?
People have mentioned that you can level a character and be gimped out from not picking "correct" builds. That's all part of the learning process.
Putting 20-30 hours into something, and have it be completely unuseable is "learning" to you. To the other 80%+ of the playerbase it is absolute frustration, as PoE's own forums will show you (and no, I don't personally care about that when it's easier to go into the forums and find out what works and what doesn't).
With each character iteration, you learn how to level faster, how to be stronger, how to equip better. That's especially true for 1 week races, which are by far my favorite aspect of PoE so far.
You can either do it with each character iteration and waste dozens/hundreds of hours, or read the forums and grab the most efficient build.
There were quite a few in the first week when I played, so I imagine things are even more refined now. Is everyone still using Ground Slam and Poison Arrow for 50+ lvls? Then starting to use their preferred skills? Judging from some Kripparian videos/vods I have checked recently (of races), I assume they are.
Another myth is that you need an Excel spread sheet to succeed in PoE, which is silly. All you need is common sense. If you build glass cannon in HC, you're going to die. If you don't take any resistances, you'll die. If you face tank Vaal merciless and don't dodge lasers / rocks, you'll die. It doesn't take a rocket scientist or an Excel spreadsheet, it's common sense.
Common sense dictates that if you get a node that boosts your dmg with a certain weapon, and you have a good weapon, you should be good to go as far as dealing DPS goes.
If you've played PoE that much, you'd know how bad those nodes are and how those builds are crap compared to things like Elemental Dmg (static blows?) or Iron Grip (for ranged classes, for instance).
PPS: No, PoE isn't perfect. On the other hand, I feel like it has the game systems to keep us hooked for years to come with different playstyles and experiences. D3 remains more of the same "grind grind grind" and that will only last for so long.
It's ok that you feel like that about PoE's systems. That's awesome, that you found a game that brings you that much enjoyment.
But take a quick look at most comments on Kripparian's videos. Dozens, hundreds of comments saying how PoE is a mindless grind, much like D3.
It doesn't matter how deep the systems are, in the end a grind is "people doing what they don't like doing in a repeated manner". And yes, PoE has the same grinding aspect of killing mobs in a very similar way for a very low chance of getting awesome items.
I bought 21 maps for a handful of orbs just this week.
You did it in a few seconds/minutes? Or did you stay in the Trade chat spamming for hours on end?
Btw, you wanna see PoE take over D3 in the future (and probably have a more promising future as a franchise)? Have them release it as an offline game for 30-50 bucks, and I'm sure a lot of people would pick it up.
I know at least a dozen friends who like the concepts but do not play it because of the online-only requirement. ^ shaggy was spot-on. The 350+ ms (on a good day) paired with clunky combat isn't exaclty a great experience to me (whereas D3 easily gets 180-200 ms on a good day).
Btw, you wanna see PoE take over D3 in the future (and probably have a more promising future as a franchise)? Have them release it as an offline game for 30-50 bucks, and I'm sure a lot of people would pick it up.
I know at least a dozen friends who like the concepts but do not play it because of the online-only requirement. ^ shaggy was spot-on. The 350+ ms (on a good day) paired with clunky combat isn't exaclty a great experience to me (whereas D3 easily gets 180-200 ms on a good day).
That's not a problem with being online only, it's a problem with living far from the servers.
The servers are on the west coast. I live on the east coast and my ping is never more than 55.
Having 350ms sucks for you but that has nothing to do with the merits of the game.
Btw, you wanna see PoE take over D3 in the future (and probably have a more promising future as a franchise)? Have them release it as an offline game for 30-50 bucks, and I'm sure a lot of people would pick it up.
I know at least a dozen friends who like the concepts but do not play it because of the online-only requirement. ^ shaggy was spot-on. The 350+ ms (on a good day) paired with clunky combat isn't exaclty a great experience to me (whereas D3 easily gets 180-200 ms on a good day).
That's not a problem with being online only, it's a problem with living far from the servers.
The servers are on the west coast. I live on the east coast and my ping is never more than 55.
Having 350ms sucks for you but that has nothing to do with the merits of the game.
When the game is online only it does effect the merits of the game. Just because you personally don't have issues doesn't mean they don't exist and doesn't mean people are wrong for criticizing the game because of it.
Let's start by saying I've played both games. For me personally, PoE is much, much more attractive to the point where reading this thread made me think "how can they even believe this?"
This is a Diablo fans site. The amount of time that has gone by since release has knocked off the Diablo 2 fans so almost everyone remaining here is a Diablo 3 fan.
When it came out for open beta I figured I'd try it out. At this point I had stopped playing D3 for several months.
Pretty much my case but it sounds like I stopped playing a bit before you did. I came back for some patches to check the changes and beat the game all over on MP10 just because it wasn't that hard to obtain.
Everytime I logged on in the months I played (including when they added paragon levels), there was only 1 thing to do: mindlessly grind through act 1-2-3 inferno getting paragon levels.
1.0.8 isn't out yet! Why did you leave Act 3? Inefficient!!! :-)
Everyone knows the odds of finding gear upgrades is/was extremely small. You don't look at whites, you don't look at blues, you don't look at 99% of rares except a select few 63 item types. As for uniques.. they're rarely well rolled and even when they are, they don't enable different builds. It's more of the same.
1.0.9 to an extent will fix this. I agree with the issue of white items. A proper crafting system would go a long way in this game.
That's fine, but it's the basis to every game of this type. You can't really argue that it's a part of game design or a game system included to bring replayability. It's like saying you enjoy killing people in a FPS game. You might enjoy the mechanics in one game over the other but that's part of the engine, not really game design.
If the genre evolves any further maybe D4 won't have gear at all. You just enter and spin to win in Act 3.
In that regards, I don't blame anyone for enjoying the graphics or combat in D3 as opposed to PoE. As mentioned above, I thought PoE looked underwhelming before I played it.
I didn't want to pay for a game that had that passive tree. I figured it would be too confusing but when I found out the game was free (late to the party on that) I decided to give it a shot. Passive tree not scary at all.
Since I started playing PoE, I've only played on HC knowing that I could die. In fact, since I was completely clueless about the game's mechanics, I somewhat expected it.
I got to 54 on a ground slam/heavy strike marauder in the first week race. About 1 day playtime which made me cry when I saw that Kripp hit 51 in one of the 8 hours races. Too afraid to play it until I get better at the game.
People have mentioned that you can level a character and be gimped out from not picking "correct" builds. That's all part of the learning process.
On default you can beat the game with any build. The "right" build is more about ease of play. Hardcore requires a lot more in-depth knowledge but that is the same with D3.
My first character sucked compared to my 2nd character. Which was worse than my 3rd. Which was worse than my 4th.
Similar situation. I refuse to cookie-cutter or read forums until I hit walls or feel like trying something different.
Another myth is that you need an Excel spread sheet to succeed in PoE, which is silly. All you need is common sense. If you build glass cannon in HC, you're going to die. If you don't take any resistances, you'll die. If you face tank Vaal merciless and don't dodge lasers / rocks, you'll die. It doesn't take a rocket scientist or an Excel spreadsheet, it's common sense.
The same people that use a spreadsheet in D3 will use it in PoE. No more, no less.
As for longer races, I felt great enjoyment "beating" Nugiyen in the first week race. He's a streamer that plays a ton but to be competitive, you have to take some risks. He died on day 5 of the 1 week race. Meanwhile my slower, cautious build carried me to a ~140ish position (which for me was good since I still felt clueless).
Grats. Think I finished ~300 in the first 1 week. I wouldn't say you beat Nugi as much as he beat himself though :-P He always dies pushing the limits.
There's a difference between getting new content all the time and creating a game with systems that support themselves. I'll try to give a few examples.
Races, modifiable map system, ladder (Diablo 2 ladder reset in May), etc. Diablo 3 isn't there yet.
Path of Exile has a lot of those game systems, and D3 doesn't (yet). Whether it's the race system, the map system, the talent tree, the itemization / crafting system, you never run out of stuff to do.
Rolling new characters. Having a friend say "I want to try out XXX build, want to level together?" may inspire you to try out a build and then you play it all over again. Keeping people playing together is positive for a game. Only having 10 slots is very WoW like and serves zero purpose.
People love to talk about Kripparrian's freeze pulse marauder "using 1 skill and never losing health".
It is as much 1 skill as a whirlwind barb which you also never lose health with. The truth is people don't understand the mechanics involved in what he is doing so to their eyes it looks like 1 skill and never losing health. They don't understand why he sidestepped or that he used a flask to remove that burning DoT, curse, etc. Kiting, being extremely careful with reflect, lightning thorns, etc. All of this while having extremely high end gear. He doesn't have the highest health of the players but it is one of the higher health pools.
Another thing most people don't understand is he is doing low level maps a lot of the times. Especially when he is in parties which makes them even easier depending on skill level of course. But still in those low level maps things exist which can kill his overgeared character if he were to roll tougher mods on those maps. For instance elemental reflect and half health/mana/shield regen is much harder for him than physical reflect/no regen maps.
When I'm playing PoE, there isn't a moment where I don't look at drops whether they're white, blue, rare or uniques. And orbs, of course. Even after playing for 3 months, there is still a high level of excitement when finding a good orb or a 5 link chest (never got a 6 link yet).
I picked up a white Glorious chest out of one of the maps I did, made it rare with decent (but not great) stats, 6 sockets and then 6 linked it in under 40 fusings .... feel free to hate me!
Because there's no AH, the economy hasn't crumbled yet to the point where you bypass 99% of items. With the advent of AH-like websites, this is starting to happen sadly. There's been a few cases where I didn't pick up rares knowing that they would have no value. Regardless, because of the game system of races, there will ALWAYS be a part of the game with a fresh economy.
More than no AH. Gold doesn't exist. It is well done system where currency is enhancement items. To 6 link the average player will go through 500 fusings. That is gold that leaves the economy.
I'm very much looking forward to the 1 week races in the next seasons, especially when they add in new modifiers. 1 week cutthroat race? Sounds fun. 1 week BLAMT race? Sounds crazy challenging and fun.
Missed the cut-throat races recently. BLAMT is amazing and just being alive at the end is an achievement.
Those are all objectives that make PoE sustainable long term. They can add new maps, new map mods, new uniques, new races.. those are all things that WILL make it so a lot of us will still play the game years from now. We will surely take breaks, but the infrastructure is there to make it so it's not always more of the same.
Every unique / skill that is added to the game inspires someone to try another build which means they are leveling a new character up and keeping the public games fresh with people.
PPPS(?): They agree maps drop too infrequently. They'll make it more sustenable in the future but in any case, you would have to be extremely hypocritical to stop playing because of it. I bought 21 maps for a handful of orbs just this week.
I enjoy the ninja loot system a lot but they are changing it to appease a crowd that doesn't want an adrenaline rush when loot falls. I'm still going to the fastest to pick up 6 socket whites/blues and RBG links though I do a lot of public maps where "Maps to maker" and "Chip in currency" happen.
Anyone that is giving PoE a try feel free to add 'Kopete' to friends and I can answer some questions you have.
People need to realize that everyone with a brain can tell PoE is better in terms of content and D3 is better in terms of gameplay smoothness.
People need to realize that everyone with a brain can tell that generalizations about what all people consider to be better are just ridiculous nonsense.
Btw, you wanna see PoE take over D3 in the future (and probably have a more promising future as a franchise)? Have them release it as an offline game for 30-50 bucks, and I'm sure a lot of people would pick it up.
That's not a problem with being online only, it's a problem with living far from the servers.
The servers are on the west coast. I live on the east coast and my ping is never more than 55.
Having 350ms sucks for you but that has nothing to do with the merits of the game.
Sure man, I absolutely recognize that. I never said PoE is bad because of that.
What I said was that the whole online-only compromise instantly alienates a huge part of a possible playerbase. In a way Diablo 2 never did.
Even D3 does this. I had 2-3 lan parties with friends already in which we played other games (UT3, Borderlands 2) because D3 online only 200-ms was out of question for them.
PPPS(?): They agree maps drop too infrequently. They'll make it more sustenable in the future but in any case, you would have to be extremely hypocritical to stop playing because of it. I bought 21 maps for a handful of orbs just this week.
Umm, how is it hypocritical to stop playing a game because you're tired of being level 80ish+ and you're stuck in Docks or Lunaris hoping that you may get lucky?
I stopped playing D3 because I didn't want to play an auction house simulator. I'll stop playing PoE because I don't want to play a barter system simulator.
PPPS(?): They agree maps drop too infrequently. They'll make it more sustenable in the future but in any case, you would have to be extremely hypocritical to stop playing because of it. I bought 21 maps for a handful of orbs just this week.
Umm, how is it hypocritical to stop playing a game because you're tired of being level 80ish+ and you're stuck in Docks or Lunaris hoping that you may get lucky?
I stopped playing D3 because I didn't want to play an auction house simulator. I'll stop playing PoE because I don't want to play a barter system simulator.
You're complaining about something that:
1) You can easily avoid by buying maps. It isn't the same as it was a month ago. People have a lot of them to sell now.
2) They explicitly said they agree it's too low and they'll buff it again. It's not Blizzard with their soontm. When Chris says they're going to do it, you know it's coming.
Umm, how is it hypocritical to stop playing a game because you're tired of being level 80ish+ and you're stuck in Docks or Lunaris hoping that you may get lucky?
I stopped playing D3 because I didn't want to play an auction house simulator. I'll stop playing PoE because I don't want to play a barter system simulator.
If you roll a map with 30%+ bonus loot you should always get a map or 2. Also you always gain XP so doing 66-69 maps shouldn't be a huge deal and I'm always seeing public games with them.
PPPS(?): They agree maps drop too infrequently. They'll make it more sustenable in the future but in any case, you would have to be extremely hypocritical to stop playing because of it. I bought 21 maps for a handful of orbs just this week.
Umm, how is it hypocritical to stop playing a game because you're tired of being level 80ish+ and you're stuck in Docks or Lunaris hoping that you may get lucky?
I stopped playing D3 because I didn't want to play an auction house simulator. I'll stop playing PoE because I don't want to play a barter system simulator.
You're complaining about something that:
1) You can easily avoid by buying maps. It isn't the same as it was a month ago. People have a lot of them to sell now.
2) They explicitly said they agree it's too low and they'll buff it again. It's not Blizzard with their soontm. When Chris says they're going to do it, you know it's coming.
But it's up to you.
I have no doubt they will make good on their promises. I just don't see how it is hypocritical to stop playing from a system that you aren't having fun with for a period of time until they fix the issues. Just because Chris says they are going to fix the issue means I should slam my head into the map wall because one day they are going to fix it? Also, not everyone wants to trade for everything, some people enjoy playing self-found, and that is pretty much next to impossible to do in the games current state.
If you roll a map with 30%+ bonus loot you should always get a map or 2. Also you always gain XP so doing 66-69 maps shouldn't be a huge deal and I'm always seeing public games with them.
Umm, no that is far from the truth. I haven't read anything about the changes in IIQ with maps in the recent patches. You must have hit a really lucky streak then, because yes, while you do want to roll higher % maps, if you aren't rolling with mods like "Area is a Maze" or "increased pack size" eventually RNG is going to catch up to you you'll fall back down the latter. The IIQ system for maps is completely broken there is ZERO incentive to roll difficult maps.
And yes, while you still get exp from maps when you run then there are points of extreme drop off for experience in maps as well. I have better things to do with my life than get .5% or less experience per map because their end game system is a gated RNG cockblock.
Umm, no that is far from the truth. I haven't read anything about the changes in IIQ with maps in the recent patches. You must have hit a really lucky streak then, because yes, while you do want to roll higher % maps, if you aren't rolling with mods like "Area is a Maze" or "increased pack size" eventually RNG is going to catch up to you you'll fall back down the latter. The IIQ system for maps is completely broken there is ZERO incentive to roll difficult maps.
And yes, while you still get exp from maps when you run then there are points of extreme drop off for experience in maps as well. I have better things to do with my life than get .5% or less experience per map because their end game system is a gated RNG cockblock.
I think Kripp made a video on how to keep map sustainability. He's got full tabs of maps and they are self found. He doesn't farm Docks to acquire them. Right now I have a tab filled with maps and didn't throw reagents into them other than a Transmute and if I didn't like the mods a few Alts. I believe Etup burns Exalts on his high level maps.
That said RNG is RNG. Just because I'm finding 1-2 maps every single run doesn't mean everyone is. Trade doesn't work like the auction house does. You can write one line and continue playing or you can post on the forum and have them whisper in game. Or hit the 'Public Parties' section and I'm sure someone has a "WTS ## Maps for Chisel/Alc/GCP/Chaos" party up. The game encourages you be social and to network.
Umm, no that is far from the truth. I haven't read anything about the changes in IIQ with maps in the recent patches. You must have hit a really lucky streak then, because yes, while you do want to roll higher % maps, if you aren't rolling with mods like "Area is a Maze" or "increased pack size" eventually RNG is going to catch up to you you'll fall back down the latter. The IIQ system for maps is completely broken there is ZERO incentive to roll difficult maps.
And yes, while you still get exp from maps when you run then there are points of extreme drop off for experience in maps as well. I have better things to do with my life than get .5% or less experience per map because their end game system is a gated RNG cockblock.
I think Kripp made a video on how to keep map sustainability. He's got full tabs of maps and they are self found. He doesn't farm Docks to acquire them. Right now I have a tab filled with maps and didn't throw reagents into them other than a Transmute and if I didn't like the mods a few Alts. I believe Etup burns Exalts on his high level maps.
That said RNG is RNG. Just because I'm finding 1-2 maps every single run doesn't mean everyone is. Trade doesn't work like the auction house does. You can write one line and continue playing or you can post on the forum and have them whisper in game. Or hit the 'Public Parties' section and I'm sure someone has a "WTS ## Maps for Chisel/Alc/GCP/Chaos" party up. The game encourages you be social and to network.
Hate to burst your bubble, but Kripp is anything but self-found in PoE.
Getting 30% IIQ on maps is easy, so if getting 30% IIQ netted a player 1-2 maps per run there'd be literally zero need for GGG to admit that map drop rates need to be buffed.
I don't it is suddenly acceptable to "trade" in PoE for things such as gear and maps (content), when it was one of the biggest points of contention everywhere for Diablo 3 that no one wanted to play an auction house simulator to get their gear and they should be able to progress through the game and be able to find their own gear. Yet now we are perfectly find with trading to be able to access content.
And Etup burns exalts on high level maps just like everyone else. if you aren't burning massive amounts of currency on currency (an amount no average player would EVER be able to maintain) then you can guarantee yourself that you aren't going to be doing any high level maps for any level of consistency.
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That single bit of the manifesto was sufficient to keep me from ever caring about PoE going into the future. The only reason they have desynchs at this point is because of the insanely-complex pathing algorithm they need since players and monsters cannot walk through each other (the algorithm is sufficiently complex that, apparently, the client and server disagree frequently when there are roadblocks like doorways and multiple mobs on the screen that may get in each others way). Apparently they believe that allowing players and monsters to run through each other is too casual or something, and that justifies "fixing" desynchs by introducing intermittant rubberbanding.
I get that they don't want to make D3. I get that they're not even trying to make D2. But what I don't get is why you'd keep a system in the game that is causing such severe and widespread gameplay repercussions, especially coupled with loss of XP on death and loss of hardcore toons. People hated losing hardcore toons to rubberbanding in D3, yet in PoE rubberbanding is "good." Are you fucking joking?
Is the game suddenly going to become less-good if players can run through monsters? No.
Is the game suddenly going to become better if people don't have to worry that any action is going to cause them to desynch? Yes.
This is the most cut-and-dry issue that PoE has, and the developers collective answer is to bury their head in the sand and basically ignore it and to tell us that rubberbanding (which is basically unacceptable in any online experience) is "good."
Fuck them. That level of arrogance doesn't fly with me. They have received such negative feedback about desynch and even more negative feedback about using rubberbanding to "fix" the situation.
Here is one guy's opinion on the desynch bit:
source
Here's another from the same thread and a response from another player:
source
And another:
source
And another:
source
I could go on and on with people saying they'd prefer no accuracy rating, or the "get hit even if you move out of melee range after the attack animation has started" stuff. People don't want desynch and they don't want rubberbanding - to the extent that they'd accept D3 mechanics in the game to mitigate it. As one user stated, the D3 methods aren't perfect, but at least you can learn to adapt to them. You can't learn to adapt to the client and server randomly desynching outside of forcequitting the game or hoping that /oos helps you out.
This guy says it best:
I want to like PoE, but the developers stance on desynch (and rubberbanding as a "solution") has me completely disinterested in ANYTHING they do. It's a mission-critical problem and they're brushing it off as if it's not even a blip on the radar. You cannot have a game on the internet where you're basically laying down and accepting desynch/rubberbanding as necessary. It's completely asinine and it insults the intelligence of the players.
People have complained that GGG isn't prioritizing important problems (desynch, melee balance, etc.) over adding microtransactions. This particular response has been almost universally-panned by the community and the PoE forums aren't laden with trolls like the offical D3 ones are. They have received countless posts saying that rubberbanding is NOT the right solution. What will determine if I have any interest in PoE going to the future is whether or not they actually listen to the players on this one and take a different approach to this problem... or if they continue to go down the "rubberbanding is good" path.
The former will get me to pay attention and be interested in the game. The latter, well... not good.
EDIT
This guy summed up exactly why desynchs happen due to the pathing system. It's a pretty good read to get your head wrapped around the problem.
source
I was really looking forward to the super hard Inferno difficulty that would have required me a large amount of time farming Act 3/4 Hell difficulty. The problem was they made max level 60 and expect you to hit it at or before you finishing Act 4 Hell difficulty. Thus there was no "need" to sit on that difficulty and get experience for more levels. Which made people think they could just instantly go into Inferno difficulty and continue progression as they had with Normal -> Nightmare -> Hell.
The other problem with this, is that the gear that dropped from Act 3/4 Hell difficulty was absolute shit for low-to-mid 50's, making it impossible to farm it for gear at level 60 to get you ready for Inferno.
What if they made max level 80-100 and required you to be max level AND have good gear. This would have required people to farm Act 3/4 Hell difficulty for quite a few months not only to get max level, but also to get the gear for Inferno. Which could then have the uber legendary/set items that would allow them to clear further into Inferno acts.
So I think it was less about designing content for the completely hardcores and more about just offering some sort of challenging end-game. Except they completely messed up progression with levels and gear, how and where it drops, and how players perceived progression to work.
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Wise ElderBut just because you don't absolutely HAVE to level up a new character to try new skills/builds, then you don't do it. If you enjoy the restraint that much, why no apply it yourself? Why does the developer have to apply it to you?
Putting 20-30 hours into something, and have it be completely unuseable is "learning" to you. To the other 80%+ of the playerbase it is absolute frustration, as PoE's own forums will show you (and no, I don't personally care about that when it's easier to go into the forums and find out what works and what doesn't).
You can either do it with each character iteration and waste dozens/hundreds of hours, or read the forums and grab the most efficient build.
There were quite a few in the first week when I played, so I imagine things are even more refined now. Is everyone still using Ground Slam and Poison Arrow for 50+ lvls? Then starting to use their preferred skills? Judging from some Kripparian videos/vods I have checked recently (of races), I assume they are.
Common sense dictates that if you get a node that boosts your dmg with a certain weapon, and you have a good weapon, you should be good to go as far as dealing DPS goes.
If you've played PoE that much, you'd know how bad those nodes are and how those builds are crap compared to things like Elemental Dmg (static blows?) or Iron Grip (for ranged classes, for instance).
It's ok that you feel like that about PoE's systems. That's awesome, that you found a game that brings you that much enjoyment.
But take a quick look at most comments on Kripparian's videos. Dozens, hundreds of comments saying how PoE is a mindless grind, much like D3.
It doesn't matter how deep the systems are, in the end a grind is "people doing what they don't like doing in a repeated manner". And yes, PoE has the same grinding aspect of killing mobs in a very similar way for a very low chance of getting awesome items.
You did it in a few seconds/minutes? Or did you stay in the Trade chat spamming for hours on end?
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Wise ElderI know at least a dozen friends who like the concepts but do not play it because of the online-only requirement. ^ shaggy was spot-on. The 350+ ms (on a good day) paired with clunky combat isn't exaclty a great experience to me (whereas D3 easily gets 180-200 ms on a good day).
That's not a problem with being online only, it's a problem with living far from the servers.
The servers are on the west coast. I live on the east coast and my ping is never more than 55.
Having 350ms sucks for you but that has nothing to do with the merits of the game.
When the game is online only it does effect the merits of the game. Just because you personally don't have issues doesn't mean they don't exist and doesn't mean people are wrong for criticizing the game because of it.
At the end people would rather prefer content cause once youve completed the content in d3 theres nothing to do.
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Curse PremiumThis is a Diablo fans site. The amount of time that has gone by since release has knocked off the Diablo 2 fans so almost everyone remaining here is a Diablo 3 fan.
Pretty much my case but it sounds like I stopped playing a bit before you did. I came back for some patches to check the changes and beat the game all over on MP10 just because it wasn't that hard to obtain.
1.0.8 isn't out yet! Why did you leave Act 3? Inefficient!!! :-)
1.0.9 to an extent will fix this. I agree with the issue of white items. A proper crafting system would go a long way in this game.
If the genre evolves any further maybe D4 won't have gear at all. You just enter and spin to win in Act 3.
I didn't want to pay for a game that had that passive tree. I figured it would be too confusing but when I found out the game was free (late to the party on that) I decided to give it a shot. Passive tree not scary at all.
I got to 54 on a ground slam/heavy strike marauder in the first week race. About 1 day playtime which made me cry when I saw that Kripp hit 51 in one of the 8 hours races. Too afraid to play it until I get better at the game.
On default you can beat the game with any build. The "right" build is more about ease of play. Hardcore requires a lot more in-depth knowledge but that is the same with D3.
Similar situation. I refuse to cookie-cutter or read forums until I hit walls or feel like trying something different.
The same people that use a spreadsheet in D3 will use it in PoE. No more, no less.
Grats. Think I finished ~300 in the first 1 week. I wouldn't say you beat Nugi as much as he beat himself though :-P He always dies pushing the limits.
Races, modifiable map system, ladder (Diablo 2 ladder reset in May), etc. Diablo 3 isn't there yet.
Rolling new characters. Having a friend say "I want to try out XXX build, want to level together?" may inspire you to try out a build and then you play it all over again. Keeping people playing together is positive for a game. Only having 10 slots is very WoW like and serves zero purpose.
It is as much 1 skill as a whirlwind barb which you also never lose health with. The truth is people don't understand the mechanics involved in what he is doing so to their eyes it looks like 1 skill and never losing health. They don't understand why he sidestepped or that he used a flask to remove that burning DoT, curse, etc. Kiting, being extremely careful with reflect, lightning thorns, etc. All of this while having extremely high end gear. He doesn't have the highest health of the players but it is one of the higher health pools.
Another thing most people don't understand is he is doing low level maps a lot of the times. Especially when he is in parties which makes them even easier depending on skill level of course. But still in those low level maps things exist which can kill his overgeared character if he were to roll tougher mods on those maps. For instance elemental reflect and half health/mana/shield regen is much harder for him than physical reflect/no regen maps.
I picked up a white Glorious chest out of one of the maps I did, made it rare with decent (but not great) stats, 6 sockets and then 6 linked it in under 40 fusings .... feel free to hate me!
More than no AH. Gold doesn't exist. It is well done system where currency is enhancement items. To 6 link the average player will go through 500 fusings. That is gold that leaves the economy.
Missed the cut-throat races recently. BLAMT is amazing and just being alive at the end is an achievement.
Every unique / skill that is added to the game inspires someone to try another build which means they are leveling a new character up and keeping the public games fresh with people.
I enjoy the ninja loot system a lot but they are changing it to appease a crowd that doesn't want an adrenaline rush when loot falls. I'm still going to the fastest to pick up 6 socket whites/blues and RBG links though
Anyone that is giving PoE a try feel free to add 'Kopete' to friends and I can answer some questions you have.
Path of Exile - CleavieWonder (Elemental Cleave)
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ModeratorPeople need to realize that everyone with a brain can tell that generalizations about what all people consider to be better are just ridiculous nonsense.
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Wise ElderWhat I said was that the whole online-only compromise instantly alienates a huge part of a possible playerbase. In a way Diablo 2 never did.
Even D3 does this. I had 2-3 lan parties with friends already in which we played other games (UT3, Borderlands 2) because D3 online only 200-ms was out of question for them.
Umm, how is it hypocritical to stop playing a game because you're tired of being level 80ish+ and you're stuck in Docks or Lunaris hoping that you may get lucky?
I stopped playing D3 because I didn't want to play an auction house simulator. I'll stop playing PoE because I don't want to play a barter system simulator.
You're complaining about something that:
1) You can easily avoid by buying maps. It isn't the same as it was a month ago. People have a lot of them to sell now.
2) They explicitly said they agree it's too low and they'll buff it again. It's not Blizzard with their soontm. When Chris says they're going to do it, you know it's coming.
But it's up to you.
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Curse PremiumIf you roll a map with 30%+ bonus loot you should always get a map or 2. Also you always gain XP so doing 66-69 maps shouldn't be a huge deal and I'm always seeing public games with them.
Path of Exile - CleavieWonder (Elemental Cleave)
So he said he doesn't want to use the AH in D3 and that he doesn't want to have to trade in PoE and your #1 solution is to trade for a map.
Unbelievable.
I have no doubt they will make good on their promises. I just don't see how it is hypocritical to stop playing from a system that you aren't having fun with for a period of time until they fix the issues. Just because Chris says they are going to fix the issue means I should slam my head into the map wall because one day they are going to fix it? Also, not everyone wants to trade for everything, some people enjoy playing self-found, and that is pretty much next to impossible to do in the games current state.
Umm, no that is far from the truth. I haven't read anything about the changes in IIQ with maps in the recent patches. You must have hit a really lucky streak then, because yes, while you do want to roll higher % maps, if you aren't rolling with mods like "Area is a Maze" or "increased pack size" eventually RNG is going to catch up to you you'll fall back down the latter. The IIQ system for maps is completely broken there is ZERO incentive to roll difficult maps.
And yes, while you still get exp from maps when you run then there are points of extreme drop off for experience in maps as well. I have better things to do with my life than get .5% or less experience per map because their end game system is a gated RNG cockblock.
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Curse PremiumI think Kripp made a video on how to keep map sustainability. He's got full tabs of maps and they are self found. He doesn't farm Docks to acquire them. Right now I have a tab filled with maps and didn't throw reagents into them other than a Transmute and if I didn't like the mods a few Alts. I believe Etup burns Exalts on his high level maps.
That said RNG is RNG. Just because I'm finding 1-2 maps every single run doesn't mean everyone is. Trade doesn't work like the auction house does. You can write one line and continue playing or you can post on the forum and have them whisper in game. Or hit the 'Public Parties' section and I'm sure someone has a "WTS ## Maps for Chisel/Alc/GCP/Chaos" party up. The game encourages you be social and to network.
Path of Exile - CleavieWonder (Elemental Cleave)
Hate to burst your bubble, but Kripp is anything but self-found in PoE.
Getting 30% IIQ on maps is easy, so if getting 30% IIQ netted a player 1-2 maps per run there'd be literally zero need for GGG to admit that map drop rates need to be buffed.
I don't it is suddenly acceptable to "trade" in PoE for things such as gear and maps (content), when it was one of the biggest points of contention everywhere for Diablo 3 that no one wanted to play an auction house simulator to get their gear and they should be able to progress through the game and be able to find their own gear. Yet now we are perfectly find with trading to be able to access content.
And Etup burns exalts on high level maps just like everyone else. if you aren't burning massive amounts of currency on currency (an amount no average player would EVER be able to maintain) then you can guarantee yourself that you aren't going to be doing any high level maps for any level of consistency.