D3 population gone?

  • #41
    The main problem with the initial difficulty was that people THOUGHT they want a challenge and asked for challenging content, but a few weeks in realised that they prefer d2-style easymode.
  • #42
    Quote from Twoflower

    The main problem with the initial difficulty was that people THOUGHT they want a challenge and asked for challenging content, but a few weeks in realised that they prefer d2-style easymode.


    That wasn't the problem. Well, maybe that was your problem.
  • #43
    No, he's spot on, it was the main problem for many people.

    Heck, in years of playing games like this I've seen it all the time: players ask for super difficult content, and once it's there they complain that it's too hard. Once it's nerfed, plus everyone has better gear, plus everyone knows how to deal with it, it appears to be too easy. One thing with "difficult content" is the mind telling players "it's impossible to beat". I've seen this so many times as raid leader in WoW, when people just thought their equip was not good enough, the strategy was wrong, the encounter was designed to be unbeatable - while all it took was determination, focus, and some time. And once the first kill was made every encounter was "on farm status".

    I know that you want to boil down every single thing in this game to the AH issue, and I agree that the AH was one issue that Blizzard overlooked when designed Inferno - but in this case it's not *just* about the AH.
  • #44
    Quote from Twoflower

    The main problem with the initial difficulty was that people THOUGHT they want a challenge and asked for challenging content, but a few weeks in realised that they prefer d2-style easymode.


    To me this wasnt the problem at all. I quit the game for a little while and cam back about a month ago. The most frustrating thing about this game to me is that i want to be able to find at least SOME of the gear i wear. Ive made a wizard, barb, and monk and i can tell you throughout playing in inferno on those characters at any given time i never had more then 1 found piece of gear on my guys.

    Challenging content doesnt mean dying repeatedly just to kill something. Hell i can only tell you that my monk i did act 1 inferno when the game released so many times just trying to gear myself enough to get to act 2 with some efficiency. However trying to find gear that had the major stats and then your chosen resist type to match the passive "one with everything" was impossible without using the AH. A challenging game is one that has a reasonable amount of skill involved while still being able to be completed. Farming act 1 for gear to be able to go into act 2 with a close to 0% chance of a good item dropping is not good design.

    The economy is just off. Im not sure the fix but i can say this its difficult to make money if you dont already have a decent amount in my expierience. I have never found that one godly item that i could sell so that i had money for upgrades i just had to grind and grind to get those okish items to sell for a little at a time until i could afford an upgrade. Which is the proble now its easy these days to get good gear because there is so much of it, however trying to get an upgrade is very difficult because you have to get a godly roll on an item to do better then the cheap gear that you can buy off the ah. So spending hours playing is going to net you far less gold then just combing the ah for things to buy cheap and resell and that is sad.

    I like the game i got my money out of it. I acknowledge that blizzard is trying its just sad to see a company that has released many games before make the same constant mistakes. This BoA gear while nice also just made a bunch of legendaries obsolete. So now your chances of getting a drop that is worth something is even less since there is 5 spots where BOA gear is the best so all drops for those slots are close to useless.
  • #45
    Quote from Bagstone

    Quote from morbidlymystic

    I heard Jay Wilson quit. I am guessing it was one of those quit to save face or we will fire you ordeals. Blizzard was expecting to make a lot of money on this RMAH thing, and I am betting it failed miserably as the player base left in droves.

    You cant really blame the RMAH, because it was going to happen any damn way, just using 3rd party sites.

    One reason that inferno might have been made so hard was to ensure bots couldn't do it, thus ruining the economy. However, players couldn't do it either, so everyone quit, thus ruining the economy any damn way. Now it is easily beatable at low Mp levels and easily bottable, thus ruining the economy even further.

    Bots were an inevitability anyways, so it seems pointless to try to stop them in such a way. Thats just fucking over the economy twice instead of once and making the game unplayable to boot.

    Personally, I place the blame on Jay Wilson, and it looks like blizzard did as well.


    This post is so full of tinfoil hat, conspiracy, assumptions, and blinded by pure hatred towards Blizzard.

    1) If Jay Wilson was to blame for all the mistakes in Diablo 3, why did they put him on the new project (Titan)? So that he can make the same mistakes again and ruin another, new franchise? That's the tinfoil hat version. Why not accept the fact that Jay Wilson is a game designer with a lot of creativity (and there is no creativity if there is no room for error/mistakes!), but he's not someone to maintain a game for the next 10 years? After Jay Wilson quite and the community literally went on a crusade of hatred on the official forums, there were blue posts and messages from Blizzard saying they were shocked about this. I can't find it right now but you should read this. I think people went a bit too far with their JW hatred.

    2) Inferno was made hard because Blizzard listened to players, listened to players who said they wanted a super hard endgame. That's why they even said "we think it'll take months for players to clear Inferno". Then players complained about Inferno being too hard, and Blizzard listened to players once more, and nerfed it (something they have done many many times in the past, btw). Players cry "make it hard", Blizzard makes it hard. Players cry "make it easier", Blizzard makes it easier. Players cry "make it harder", Blizzard adds MP levels to make it harder. Seriously, it doesn't matter what Blizzard does - haters gonna hate.

    3) Diablo is by its nature a game that's made for bots. The "perfect, efficient" player is sitting in front of his PC and playing exactly like a bot would. It is unbelievably hard to distinguish hardcore, efficient, determined players from bots. But my two opinions are that i) botting is not nearly as rampant as in D2, WoW, or many other games and ii) I don't care about botting because D3 is not competitive, and for me the main parts of the game are solo play or playing with a circle of RL friends, it's not like an MMO where I see the bots in public games.

    Seriously, I'm totally fine with everyone having their own opinion, but I hope it's not too much to ask people to think a bit about what they write before making wild accusations beyond any sane reasoning.


    Easy there killer, I heard he quit. Not that he started working on another project, so that was bad info. Anyways, its still his fault as he was the lead director and he released a shit game. He catered to the 0.000000001% without spending 5 mins to consider WTF the consequences were and here we are dead in the water.

    By your comment about bots, it almost sounds like you are advocating using them....Things are going great for botters.
    Is that why you think everything is just dandy...


    Quote from TarrTarr

    Quote from Twoflower

    The main problem with the initial difficulty was that people THOUGHT they want a challenge and asked for challenging content, but a few weeks in realised that they prefer d2-style easymode.


    To me this wasnt the problem at all. I quit the game for a little while and cam back about a month ago. The most frustrating thing about this game to me is that i want to be able to find at least SOME of the gear i wear. Ive made a wizard, barb, and monk and i can tell you throughout playing in inferno on those characters at any given time i never had more then 1 found piece of gear on my guys.

    Challenging content doesnt mean dying repeatedly just to kill something. Hell i can only tell you that my monk i did act 1 inferno when the game released so many times just trying to gear myself enough to get to act 2 with some efficiency. However trying to find gear that had the major stats and then your chosen resist type to match the passive "one with everything" was impossible without using the AH. A challenging game is one that has a reasonable amount of skill involved while still being able to be completed. Farming act 1 for gear to be able to go into act 2 with a close to 0% chance of a good item dropping is not good design.

    The economy is just off. Im not sure the fix but i can say this its difficult to make money if you dont already have a decent amount in my expierience. I have never found that one godly item that i could sell so that i had money for upgrades i just had to grind and grind to get those okish items to sell for a little at a time until i could afford an upgrade. Which is the proble now its easy these days to get good gear because there is so much of it, however trying to get an upgrade is very difficult because you have to get a godly roll on an item to do better then the cheap gear that you can buy off the ah. So spending hours playing is going to net you far less gold then just combing the ah for things to buy cheap and resell and that is sad.

    I like the game i got my money out of it. I acknowledge that blizzard is trying its just sad to see a company that has released many games before make the same constant mistakes. This BoA gear while nice also just made a bunch of legendaries obsolete. So now your chances of getting a drop that is worth something is even less since there is 5 spots where BOA gear is the best so all drops for those slots are close to useless.


    The game was never really meant to be played that way though. You could play with only gear you have found, but it would take forever to get anywhere. Also, what do you do with the gear you find for other classes? Sell it? What for, just to collect gold? I don't get it personally.

    Anyways, you need MF. You can easily find gear with MF and using the NV buff. I just started back myself and I have nearly maxed MF, 300 on my gear. Most of its on my standard gear, but some are special pieces I bought just for MF. I farm MP2 Act 3 and I usually get 1-2 legendary items per run. If you want to farm your own gear, then this is how you have to do it.

    However, just a note but unid items sell for a lot. People apparently want to buy them and gamble they roll near perfect.
  • #46
    He said that in his goodbye post, and it's been added as status message on his Twitter account recently. In a response to one of the countless rant threads on B.Net, Rob Pardo even said that ultimately every "failure" of D3 was to blame on him rather than on Jay Wilson (read here). Again, the mistakes were made because they tried something new and took risks, rather than going with previously approved concepts. JW is now game designer of their new MMO "Titan" and he wouldn't have gotten into this position if Blizzard would even remotely share the community's opinion on how he butchered the D3 franchise.

    And I absolutely don't advocate botters! Nothing could be further away from the truth. Fact is, I know many people (ingame and on these forums) who deal with items in the billion range, who have sold and/or bought them, therefore I can't understand the rants going on about 2 billion gold items (I would never ever pay that much, but I know people who do). I knew these well before someone brought up the topic of "botting in D3" - I was sincerely in belief that there is no or almost no botting in D3. It greatly saddened me to read the bot's developer's forums, giving undeniable proof of botting in D3. However, I still don't know any botter in D3, so it's all just hearsay to me, and that's why I said "I don't care about bots". I know enough people who deal with billion gold (legit!), and therefore I never had to come up with "bot theories" to explain these prices. They make sense to me, even though I despise them as much as I despise the AH and the entire notion of "D3 economy" (I'm close to maka's and Indimix's point of view, though I'm trying to stay a bit neutral as my friends whom I'm playing with kind of like the AH).
  • #47
    Well unfortunatly yes when the game first came out i did sell most of the gear for other classes. If i hadnt by the time i re-rolled that gear would have been worth a fraction of what it was when i sold it. At the start of the game i think i really just didnt like the monk and where they were. For trying to find gear yourself to wear they were impossible imo. Dex, All resist, Vit, Single Resist(specific one for talent). Not including crit, atk speed, or anything like that for a decent piece of gear you needed at least 4 affixes to roll. There is just too many possiblities to farm the gear for yourself.

    I farmed a lot at the start of the game and to be fair i was able to go into act 2,3 but it was at times nothing but a zerg or a kite fest. The hardest thing to accept is that blizzard literally learned nothing from any of their other games when making this one. Ill use the monk talent "one with everything" and "War Cry" for barbs as an example anyone looking at the game talents pre release knew that those 2 talents were a must have. They talked a big game about giving you options but it was obvious that builds werent tested very much.

    All in all im still playing. Thinking of taking a break and trying something else again for a little while. Ive tried all MF gear and little mf gear runs and tbh i get a lot more yellows but legendaries are still hard for me to find. Its all luck which would be fine by itself but when everything is random. So i need to get a legendary to drop, then it has to be a decent legendary and not something like gladiator gloves, then i need to get a good roll on that item. Thats a lot of random to have happen for so few amount of legendaries that are actually good. I dont like to sell unid items i understand why people do but it goes back to the i want to wear what i find thing.
  • #48
    Quote from Eldius

    The expansions will bring people back in droves, though.


    As much as I hate to admit this, probably true. I'm not playing D3 atm for quite a few reasons (blablabla) but if the expansion content adds some neat stuff in, I'll be sold, I disliked D2 before LoD, So I'm kind of fingers crossed for D3 expansion, history has a way of repeating its self haha!

    Partly on topic, the game would feel so much more "alive" if I could see other player characters in a chat room when I log in, I spent many a hour having a chat in GBR-1/2 and made quite a few Diablo buddies through the chat, since D3s release, I've yet to interact in a chat room, It really did give me a sense of community, silly I guess, but I miss that.
  • #49
    I play in EU at night time (3am-6am), and weekdays you are usually alone. It got worse after all the MP level public games added even more diversity. Right now it seems MP 3/4 act 3 are the only games that attract people.

    Now I can only hope that all the console people can play online with. But then you can probably not chat with them because they have no keyboard...
  • #50
    Quote from dinamar

    Quote from Sartorius

    Quote from vidrith

    People online playing public games before patch 1.0.7 ~ 400-600.

    People online playing public games "after few weeks" of patch 1.0.7 ~5000.


    You do know MP is now allowed in public games, right? Thus rendering you and your comment useless.


    What a douche bag thing to say, disagree, sure, but donĀ“t be such an ass about it


    Indeed, I was sort of a douchebag. Apologies.
  • #51
    Quote from Bagstone

    No, he's spot on, it was the main problem for many people.

    Heck, in years of playing games like this I've seen it all the time: players ask for super difficult content, and once it's there they complain that it's too hard. Once it's nerfed, plus everyone has better gear, plus everyone knows how to deal with it, it appears to be too easy. One thing with "difficult content" is the mind telling players "it's impossible to beat". I've seen this so many times as raid leader in WoW, when people just thought their equip was not good enough, the strategy was wrong, the encounter was designed to be unbeatable - while all it took was determination, focus, and some time. And once the first kill was made every encounter was "on farm status".

    I know that you want to boil down every single thing in this game to the AH issue, and I agree that the AH was one issue that Blizzard overlooked when designed Inferno - but in this case it's not *just* about the AH.


    I never said it was all just because of the AH. In fact, I only mentioned the AH in passing. I refer you to my previous post:

    Quote from maka
    Critical mistake: making te best gear only drop in Inferno. Result: players either had to grind the same area (Act 1) over and over again (not fun), or they had to exploit/death-zerg to get through content, which resulted in OP gear being posted on AH (and you know the rest of the story).


    I still maintain that opinion. By making the best gear only drop in Inferno, esp. Acts 3 and 4, they caused us to get 'stuck' in Act 1 for ages. You couldn't even go back to farming Hell because the gear that dropped there was useless in gearing towards Inferno (if you could already run Act 1).
    The only way past this was to exploit your way through, death-zerg the content, or buy all your gear on the AH. Btw, said gear was posted there by people who exploited or death-zerged the content.
  • #52
    D3 is not dead at all. Im playing on eu servers mostly but got 3 60s on us as well. On my (eu) friendlist there are between 10 and 20 people online during "prime time" on a daily base. If you follow some of the better known streams(archon, cdx, ziss, moldran, avoid just to name a few) you will find lots of people still playing this game and looking for others to play with. I meet a bunch of nice people just on stream chats.

    The in game chat is pretty much dead but i left all the channels long time ago anyways. The gold spam was annoying as fuk tbh and people in tradechat tried either to scam you or put some retarded comments about the pricetag for certain items. I realy dont miss the in game chats.

    In terms of pub games im pretty sure alot of people just avoid them. Ive been like 3 or 4 times in pub games and i had at least one mostly two totaly undergearded people in my group. I dont mind carry "friends" either in the early days of inferno nor now on higher monsterpower levels. Im just not the guy whos willing to carry 1 or 2 random scrubs which just pick up the loots and do nothing for the group at all.
    Words of wisdom: Don't follow the advice of people who won't have to deal with the consequences.
  • #53
    Let me just say this. I do agree with most of the opinions in this thread. But I totally feel like the creator of this topic. All of my friends( even those who were hardcore Diablo fans) quit the game , just because they don't see any real end game content. Every time a patch is released- everyone is damn excited and after one week I feel the same old solitude.
  • #54
    Quote from maka



    I still maintain that opinion. By making the best gear only drop in Inferno, esp. Acts 3 and 4, they caused us to get 'stuck' in Act 1 for ages. You couldn't even go back to farming Hell because the gear that dropped there was useless in gearing towards Inferno (if you could already run Act 1).
    The only way past this was to exploit your way through, death-zerg the content, or buy all your gear on the AH. Btw, said gear was posted there by people who exploited or death-zerged the content.


    I started playing HC~no AH~self found only.... and I've never had so much fun playing Diablo. It actually feels like a dungeon-crawler adventure for once.

    The important point is that D3 offers players a choice. They can play the game in many ways, with restrictions or without.

    I do agree that the last 2 acts of Hell should include more Inferno-viable gear.
    BurningRope#1322
  • #55
    @maka: Okay, but this is something that Blizzard said multiple times before release: Hell was the highest difficulty most players would complete. Inferno would only be accessible after weeks of farming, and progress through each of the acts in Inferno would require a lot of "grinding". They were also very clear upfront with the fact that some of the gear was only accessible in these late stages of Inferno, but it would require time. This was clearly communicated multiple times and the hardcore players were okay with that at the panels they gave at Blizzcon and so on. Even I was okay with this because quite frankly, I've never had access to the top gear or any high runes in D2 either. This was not a mistake, it was a deliberate, well-communicated design decision. The two mistakes were to let 1) level 63 loot not drop in all acts in Inferno (which was hotfixed after ~2-3 weeks) and 2) don't predict the impact on the AH, accelerating the gear acquisition for some of the top players (though the very top players have their "loot teams" anyways and would've cracked Inferno almost as fast even without the AH).
  • #56
    Quote from ruksak

    Quote from maka

    I still maintain that opinion. By making the best gear only drop in Inferno, esp. Acts 3 and 4, they caused us to get 'stuck' in Act 1 for ages. You couldn't even go back to farming Hell because the gear that dropped there was useless in gearing towards Inferno (if you could already run Act 1).
    The only way past this was to exploit your way through, death-zerg the content, or buy all your gear on the AH. Btw, said gear was posted there by people who exploited or death-zerged the content.


    I started playing HC~no AH~self found only.... and I've never had so much fun playing Diablo. It actually feels like a dungeon-crawler adventure for once.

    The important point is that D3 offers players a choice. They can play the game in many ways, with restrictions or without.

    I do agree that the last 2 acts of Hell should include more Inferno-viable gear.


    That's something i started to do too, but when i reached act 3 Hell, i couldn't find enough gear of my level, so i bought some 60+ gear from AH and now i'm doing Inferno, hoping to get some good gear and recipes. Self found is the way to go to have a bit more fun, but it's frustrating when you reach 60 and all you can find in Hell act 3-4 is 52-58 ilvl :S
  • #57
    There's a difference between difficulty based on skill level and difficulty based on gear level. Of course people will become frustrated when their progress is halted because of something beyond their personal abilities. No matter how much their skills mature they're stuck while they wait on drops that are far too random. Sure you can change your build but at the end there're only a few builds that work per class with very minor viable variations. It's possible to have 344645723423 different builds, theoretically, it's also possible to bolt a car together a million different ways but only a few are going to get you anywhere.

    At any rate I'll stick my head in the door come expansion time providing I have the time. As it is the game is a very dry sandwich.
    "For the price of one bullet you can eat 4 hotcakes." - Vash the Stampede.
  • #58
    I still maintain that opinion. By making the best gear only drop in Inferno, esp. Acts 3 and 4, they caused us to get 'stuck' in Act 1 for ages. You couldn't even go back to farming Hell because the gear that dropped there was useless in gearing towards Inferno (if you could already run Act 1).
    The only way past this was to exploit your way through, death-zerg the content, or buy all your gear on the AH. Btw, said gear was posted there by people who exploited or death-zerged the content.

    So im an exploiter because in the early days i played a demon hunter when smoke screen was op as fuk? Do i have to fell bad just because i could kite anything to death with my wizard only using blizzard+venom hydra? Ive cheated because i was able to find "good blue weapons" in act3/4 inferno and sold those for millions on ah? Pls get real and stop posting retarded stuff like this. The only downside in the early days of inferno was that meele where totaly fuked. The incoming damage in act3/4 was way to high even with +800 resist and 8k armor back then. I felt pretty useless when playing my monk in a group with 2 or 3 range classes. All i could do was providing a mantra, a heal and some sort of cc. So yes in terms of melee pre 1.03 wasnt realy that great.

    I found some decent items on my daily butcher runs which sold for a few hundred k or sometimes even for more then a million. Even without drops you could make enough gold just from vendor crap and get 1 or 2 pieces with goldfind to buy a decent upgrade on a daily base. If youve been stucked for ages in act1 blame yourself and not the game! No one forced you to play "selffound". ;) And you could always team up with friends and just share the loot which i did alot back then.

    Tbh it was fun for me and the people i played in groups with to clean up detphs 1 to 3 in like 4 or 5 hours of playtime. Yes on some packs you had to res zerg em. On some you just been for 2mins in town to get the enrage away. The game was challenging back then and i had a blast gettin my butt handed in act4 inferno when i didnt pay attention.
    Words of wisdom: Don't follow the advice of people who won't have to deal with the consequences.
  • #59
    Quote from Bagstone

    @maka: Okay, but this is something that Blizzard said multiple times before release: Hell was the highest difficulty most players would complete. Inferno would only be accessible after weeks of farming, and progress through each of the acts in Inferno would require a lot of "grinding".

    Good, someone else remembers this. I thought I was taking crazy pills or something, cause I never expected to beat Inferno. I always though D3 Hell and D2 hell were roughly comparable, and then Inferno was more like the Ubers, and/or the goal of being able to solo all the way through D2 Hell (not included in the previous statement cause you need such specific equipment to A) have the needed resists, and B) be able to deal with all the immunes).

    Quote from Bagstone

    They were also very clear upfront with the fact that some of the gear was only accessible in these late stages of Inferno, but it would require time. This was clearly communicated multiple times and the hardcore players were okay with that at the panels they gave at Blizzcon and so on. Even I was okay with this because quite frankly, I've never had access to the top gear or any high runes in D2 either. This was not a mistake, it was a deliberate, well-communicated design decision. The two mistakes were to let 1) level 63 loot not drop in all acts in Inferno (which was hotfixed after ~2-3 weeks) and 2) don't predict the impact on the AH, accelerating the gear acquisition for some of the top players (though the very top players have their "loot teams" anyways and would've cracked Inferno almost as fast even without the AH).

    That whole "can't get lvl 63 in Act 1" was a mistake, but like you said, they hotfixed it.

    And I think the problem is only with the AH because it means you only have to find a generic good (gold) to trade, instead of finding a specific good (what the person who has what you want needs). Well, that and you have SOOO many people on it. Perhaps they should have limited the AH to regions or some such, which would be balanced to try and keep a certain number of active people using it (kind like how they handle the global chat).
  • #60
    Trading was already there in D2, but it was cumbersome. You had to know the channels, the websites, forums and so on, establish contacts, and as far as I've heard there was a lot of scam - like I said, I never used public trading in D2. In D3, trading just became so ridiculously easy, it's right there when you enter the game. "Damn, I can't beat this boss" in D2: ask your friends to help, get more gear by running the last act boss a couple of times again, or get an item through public trading. The first two things were more trustworthy and quicker than getting into trading, at least for me. In D3, the AH is run by Blizzard and therefore trustworthy, and it's even faster than doing one more run or ask a friend to help you out.

    If there was some kind of artificial delay, e.g., a 24 hour wait for items from the AH (even the gold AH), or if there was a cumbersome access to the AH (like you have to find a rare in-game merchant who gives you access, or whatever crazy idea you can come up with), the AH wouldn't be part of everyone's game anymore. But right now it's sad that many people go online just to check the AH and don't even enter the game. It would be a start if the AH was not on the login screen but hidden somewhere in the game.

    Does anyone remember the Cornerstone of the World in Diablo: Hellfire? That was such a cool idea. And it was difficult to abuse because it was a hidden point in a dungeon that allowed you to transfer one (yes, only one) item at a time to another char.

    Edit: I realize we're derailing the topic, but I guess the OP was not really interested in discussing anything anyways. The game is not dead at all, ever since 1.07 there was always at least one person online in D3, many people are coming back - but no on uses public chat. It was the first thing I left before even starting my very first quest.
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