Let me know what you think about this simple idea to improve the magic find system.

  • #1
    Some minutes ago, I was thinking, why is it that the worst part of the game is when you have to id all of those rares knowing that almost every single one is trash, I don't mean bad items, but trash, like class specific items rolling non-class specific main stats, and things like that.

    So I was thinking, that maybe the whole MF system is flawed, even if it works the same in D2 and other games, why not change it into something users can find joy?.

    So I came up with this idea:

    - For the sake of the new magic find, lets call them magic points, from now on: MPo.

    - You gain MPo the same way you currently gain MF, through items, paragon level, NV, etc.
    - Every point you win, you decide how the item that drops will be, this is easier to show with an example:

    you have 100 MPo. Then what you do, is to allocate these points in a way that you customize the quality, quantity and most important, what affix a specific kind of item should roll.

    Let say you are looking for a helm with a socket. Then what you do, is that you use some of your MPo to give a higher chance that all of the helms that drop from now on, will roll a socket. The chance could be 100% if you invest the enough MPo.

    The same concept would apply to all of the affixes in the game, discriminated by class of weapon, and of course the affixes available to those classes.

    I think this could be a good idea to stop the "sigh... now I have to id all those rares... yay", into a better experience, and at the same time, make the MF more fun to have and play with, and not just a dull number.

    Let me know what you think about this.

    Thanks.
  • #2
    Yeah, I don't think this would fix that at all (assuming I understand you). All you seem to be doing is increasing the chance you find an item you want. Which means A) unless you increase the chances by a HUGE amount, the tiny tiny chance that what you want is now doubled or trippled (think 0.001% going to 0.003%) and B) if you DO increase the chances you find what you want enough so that it makes a big difference, then you'll find everything you want, until you get bored, or an upgrade that you want is now so rare (cause you are so close to the perfect possible roll) that it is 0.001%.

    But as to changing MF, I, personally, think they should just drop it off items, and increase the basic rate by whatever that % was. Sure, maybe keep it on NV, but I'm not thrilled by the idea of having it on items. I was thrilled when they said they were trying the game without it.

    That all said, I'm not saying this would be a bad system, but I don't think it would work for your stated objective of IDing a bunch of rares.
  • #3
    Just look at how the new crafted amulets work, you fix one property, and then roll the dice for the rest. Then why not apply something like that to every item that drop?, you can if you want add another affix spending your MPo's.

    And it would be expensive enough to not be able to get a perfect item in 10 minutes.
  • #4

    Some minutes ago, I was thinking, why is it that the worst part of the game is when you have to id all of those rares knowing that almost every single one is trash, I don't mean bad items, but trash, like class specific items rolling non-class specific main stats, and things like that.

    So I was thinking, that maybe the whole MF system is flawed, even if it works the same in D2 and other games, why not change it into something users can find joy?.

    So I came up with this idea:

    - For the sake of the new magic find, lets call them magic points, from now on: MPo.

    - You gain MPo the same way you currently gain MF, through items, paragon level, NV, etc.
    - Every point you win, you decide how the item that drops will be, this is easier to show with an example:

    you have 100 MPo. Then what you do, is to allocate these points in a way that you customize the quality, quantity and most important, what affix a specific kind of item should roll.

    Let say you are looking for a helm with a socket. Then what you do, is that you use some of your MPo to give a higher chance that all of the helms that drop from now on, will roll a socket. The chance could be 100% if you invest the enough MPo.

    The same concept would apply to all of the affixes in the game, discriminated by class of weapon, and of course the affixes available to those classes.

    I think this could be a good idea to stop the "sigh... now I have to id all those rares... yay", into a better experience, and at the same time, make the MF more fun to have and play with, and not just a dull number.

    Let me know what you think about this.

    Thanks.


    Right off the bat, I'm kind of tired of people disliking getting non-primary stats on class specific items. I get that people want to maximize damage, but this game is entirely gear-dependent. Meaning, if people have ANY desire whatsoever to experiment with different styles of builds, then non-primary stats NEED to roll on class-specific items. I realize most people use the same exact builds anyway...but that's no reason even more people should be corralled into using the same identical builds and styles if they don't want to.

    Anyway...about your MF idea. I really can't say I agree with it. If your major annoyance is having to ID rares, I dare say eventually, Blizzard may cave in and make some artisan do ID ALL for people. "Spending magic points" to increase the drop rate of specific items? I realize that it's hard to find certain gear pieces, but if you're really that impatient, the Auction House is that way.

    I understand the frustration trying to farm for something SPECIFIC, and not getting it, but that's part of the challenge. This game doesn't need MORE things to expedite peoples' trip to the end. Honestly, if I spent points specifically to get a high DPS 1h Sword to drop, and then it dropped? I wouldn't feel proud, I wouldn't feel lucky, I wouldn't feel like I succeeded. I just spent points and got a result.

    Meanwhile, grinding Plvls with my Monk, he's now at Plvl 21, and when playing on MP2 with 5 stacks and the gear he has on, he can get up to around 225% MF. Not maxed, obviously, but I've definitely been seeing a marked increase in set and legendary drops lately (hopefully, not a result of the typical "post-patch boom"). And even if every one isn't an upgrade, they'll mean more brimstones I can use to craft Amulets, or nice sales to supplement my gold for gem crafting.

    I kinda wish people would just slow down. The faster you "spend magic points" and find the perfect gear setup, the sooner you'll have less to do. My Monk got some gear upgrades recently, and with the patch buffing skills, he can handle MP2 at pretty moderate difficulty. I find some more stuff, craft some Archon pieces, he'll rise up the ranks in no time.

    I'm in no rush.
    Pre AH-shutdown Transcendence/Spirit (Re)gen build, uses only found and crafted gear and gems, can handle MP7.
  • #5
    First, in the current state of the game, the itemization, and more importantly how the skills work with it, doesn't allow having non-main stats in class specific items. Period. There is no place to "test builds", not in the current state of the game.

    Secondly, what I propose, is a funny way to play the AH, in the game itself.

    My problem is not with the ID process, I'd love to ID an item if I know there is a real chance for that item to be usable. Give me a 1/1000 chance, I will be ok with that. Right now, is more like 1/1000000 to even roll the right affixes. And the right affixes are fixed because this game promotes that. The itemization is so dull, that there is no room for anything else. It's not about efficiency, it's about not being dumb. Why would you want to build something that just doesn't work?, why would you choose another skill except Zombie Bears if you want to do the higher DPS you can to kill some elites in MP3+ ?, there is no room to choose anything, because the game dictates that.

    And believe me, I have no rush either, it's just I'm tired of having to go back to town and ID rare after rare to only see items that don't make any sense, not bad items, not "not upgrades because I have uber gear" items, just items that don't even roll affixes that are completely required to even consider wearing them.

    In this system, at least you can assure that some of the items will roll the right affixes, it's like an intelligent MF.
  • #6
    I'm sorry, but I really couldn't disagree with your viewpoint more here...the MF points, so to speak, isn't a terrible idea at all, and would at least add some depth to item hunting...but your viewpoint of this game is really skewed....

    No place to test builds? Aside from my Wizard, that I really just use in multiplayer, check out my characters. My Monk foregoes Thunderclap and uses Way of the Hundred Fists. Demon Hunter, Chain Gang and Nether Tentacles. You'll see tons of skills that either not a lot of people use, or simply refuse to. You ask this, "why would you choose another skill except Zombie Bears if you want to do the highest DPS" then you say, "it's not about efficiency"? That's extremely contradictory. Sure, if a person only wants to max out DPS, then fine, they'll go for Bears. But I LOVE my WD's build. Sure, she could use better gear because I gear up with what I find (and since the patch, I'll now be crafting a hell of a lot more), but I love her skills. An all Spirit Build, it works with the Last Breath knife I found, and so far, it works pretty well. I just need better gear to buff it, but really, who doesn't want/need better gear? Everyone does.

    http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/CardinalMDM-1269/hero/18784990

    The other month, I found a Burning Axe of Sankis, threw it on my Demon Hunter and took away his left click skill to try out a melee build, and did a Hell Diablo run. It was a BLAST!! I can't wait to fine tune it and do more with it to make it something special. No room to test builds? There's ALWAYS room to test builds. ALWAYS room to experiment and do something different than another person's doing.

    Honestly, the people I hear this complaint from the most, that they hate ID'ing rares, are people who have insanely high end gear that either 1) don't want to be bothered with identifying things that are "below" them, or 2) who don't seem to get that by buying all their gear on the AH that they've effectively shot themselves, like a magic bullet, to the endgame...where most drops WILL INEVITABLY SUCK!!

    Sorry, but that's what happens. People can pull the itemization card all they like, but by upgrading organically, and with a variety of characters instead of just one, at least half, if not more, of the rares I pick up are "something to consider."

    That's a fact.
    Pre AH-shutdown Transcendence/Spirit (Re)gen build, uses only found and crafted gear and gems, can handle MP7.
  • #7
    Well.. what can I say, I guess I wish I was more like you, but I can't. I'm 31 years old, I've played a shit ton of games like this over the years, and flaws just present themselves so easily in this game that I cant avoid them anymore.
  • #8
    There are two positive points in your idea, Indimix:
    1) I also have concerns about MF, as I mentioned sometimes I think it's too high with 625% max and somehow got out of Blizzard's hands. Therefore, I'd welcome a revamp, and your idea provides a reasonable base to provoke thoughts about how to tackle this.
    2) I like that you kind of turned MF into a system which is similar to the new 1.07 crafting (one fixed stat) - it shows that there's not all hope left and deep down there may still be a bit inside of you that enjoys at least a part of Diablo 3, even if it's just the occasional crafting (I know you're short on materials b/c the current system is also meant to take all the stockpiles of mats away from the AH hoarders).

    My concern, however, is that it may not go far enough. The new crafting idea is a nice beginning, but there's still way to go. I also really would like to see a system that finds a balance between the super efficient high MP high-end gear professional players and the average casual gamer; while the latter gets one legendary per week, the pros find a bunch of them every hour. The gap between pros and casual is too big, in my opinion; if it would be just a bit closer, both would be happier. However, as I said, the idea has some good food for thought. Could be tweaked into something really nice.
  • #9

    I'm sorry, but I really couldn't disagree with your viewpoint more here...the MF points, so to speak, isn't a terrible idea at all, and would at least add some depth to item hunting...but your viewpoint of this game is really skewed....

    No place to test builds? Aside from my Wizard, that I really just use in multiplayer, check out my characters. My Monk foregoes Thunderclap and uses Way of the Hundred Fists. Demon Hunter, Chain Gang and Nether Tentacles. You'll see tons of skills that either not a lot of people use, or simply refuse to. You ask this, "why would you choose another skill except Zombie Bears if you want to do the highest DPS" then you say, "it's not about efficiency"? That's extremely contradictory. Sure, if a person only wants to max out DPS, then fine, they'll go for Bears. But I LOVE my WD's build. Sure, she could use better gear because I gear up with what I find (and since the patch, I'll now be crafting a hell of a lot more), but I love her skills. An all Spirit Build, it works with the Last Breath knife I found, and so far, it works pretty well. I just need better gear to buff it, but really, who doesn't want/need better gear? Everyone does.

    http://us.battle.net...9/hero/18784990

    The other month, I found a Burning Axe of Sankis, threw it on my Demon Hunter and took away his left click skill to try out a melee build, and did a Hell Diablo run. It was a BLAST!! I can't wait to fine tune it and do more with it to make it something special. No room to test builds? There's ALWAYS room to test builds. ALWAYS room to experiment and do something different than another person's doing.

    Honestly, the people I hear this complaint from the most, that they hate ID'ing rares, are people who have insanely high end gear that either 1) don't want to be bothered with identifying things that are "below" them, or 2) who don't seem to get that by buying all their gear on the AH that they've effectively shot themselves, like a magic bullet, to the endgame...where most drops WILL INEVITABLY SUCK!!

    Sorry, but that's what happens. People can pull the itemization card all they like, but by upgrading organically, and with a variety of characters instead of just one, at least half, if not more, of the rares I pick up are "something to consider."

    That's a fact.


    I can easilly sink your theories. I never bought a single item from the AH, yet I agree with indimix.
    Your DH build can run Hell Diablo? Hurray. Any build can do that, just like any build could run NM Diablo in D2. Does that make it viable? No.
    The point of this game is to get loot. The action is OK, but without the loot, it's just a glorified God of War. So it follows that any build that doesn't get you loot at a reasonable rate is not viable. I'm not one of those efficiency nuts, but if your definition of viability is "anything that can survive", then I'd have to disagree with you, because pretty much any build can survive on MP0.

    So, yeah, sorry, but I totally disagree. And I'm a self-found guy.

    Oh, and your accusation to indimix of "oh, you just bought uber gear on the AH and now of course your loot is crap" makes zero sense. He's a self-found guy as well, I believe.
  • #10
    Yeah, I didn't mention it, because I didn't think it was required to present this idea.
  • #11




    Maka, where the fuck did you buy your keyboard?!

    EDIT
    Sorry to not be on-topic, but my opinion of itemization hasn't changed. Until they make it that certain slots (namely weapon, amulets, rings, and gloves) don't have so many potential offensive affixes there will be big trouble in little china. Changing magic find won't address that core problem.

    Technically amulets can roll 7 damage-related properties but only can have 6 at once. That's a massive problem especially for survivability stats like life/sec, armor, resist all, vitality. It creates a situation where you're forced to pick offense because that's how you crush monsters.

    As an anecdote the very first pair of shoulders that I crafted was better than any Vile Wards I've seen (granted I'm not exactly scouring the universe surveying every Vile Ward, but...). 290+ int, 75+ resist all, good vitality roll, +7 pickup radius. I very much got lucky here, but the point I'm trying to make is that rolling a good pair of shoulders (once the cap on primary stats is level) isn't nearly as hard as rolling a good amulet because shoulders aren't flooded with MUST HAVE offensive stats. Getting a decent pair of shoulders isn't exactly the most daunting of tasks.

    I'm entirely "meh" to your solution Indimix. I'd play either way. It wouldn't make or break the game for me, but I'd prefer to see the problem addressed without going the way of "guaranteed" loot. I actually like using crafting as a mechanism for utilizing discarded loot you find on the ground to get another shot at gear and I think the 1.0.7 recipes are a massive step in the right direction.
    66.0k elite kills :: 1.97m total kills :: p244
    Planet Express <PlanEx>
    (V) (°,,°) (V)
  • #12
    Yeah, the thing is, this need of having the required affixes when you ID an item, is because... if not, the item is useless.

    For example:

    - boots without MS? -> trash
    - helm, weapon, chest, legs without sockets? -> trash
    - amulets that are not at least trifecta? -> trash
    and the list goes on...

    In the current system, a way to sort of fix at least one affix would improve the fun when you ID any item.

    Just to give an example why some things in Diablo 2 were better designed, the armor chest Enigma, it didn't have the best stats, however you could blink.
  • #13
    I hate these posts about how trashy items are and then complaining about how the AH has ruined the game. Without the AH there is absolutely no way to objectively compare items other than to compare them to your own items, and your own items will always get better with play. Regardless of the average quality level of items, the curve is always exactly the same shape, a bell curve. When you move farther to the right (better side) of the bell curve, the vast majority of items are worse than what you have and therefore "trash". Lets say you make all items better (shift the bell curve right). You then start finding better items and move yourself to the right... to end up in the SAME SPOT. You'll quickly get back to the point where the same percentage of stuff you find is crap compared to what you are currently using.

    Now let's add the AH into the mix. You can say that an item is trash because enough people have found that item that the market is flooded with as-good-as or better items and it's not worth anything. That puts the item on the top of the bell curve. Lets say you make all items better (moving the bell curve left again) so that your new items are better than the vast majority of other older items. Then you find more, and everyone else finds more and the curve shifts to the right, putting those awesome items squarely at the top of the bell curve again and those once awesome items become worthless and you start complaining about the MF system again.

    No matter what you do, all you're ever doing is shifting the bell curve momentarily before the natural progression of the game pushes the bell curve back. If you want to re-experience this game without the AH, the sell off all of your items, sell off your gold and start over. It's the only thing that pushes you significantly far enough on the left of the bell curve to fix this issue for you for any extended period of time.
  • #14

    Just to give an example why some things in Diablo 2 were better designed, the armor chest Enigma, it didn't have the best stats, however you could blink.


    Errr... I agree with the other examples you mentioned before, but they're kind of just valid for top players (I don't have trifecta gloves, rings, amulets, because I either skip the IAS or CD depending on spec). And even without trifectas I have > 200k DPS unbuffed... but didn't go crazy on the AH ;-)

    But Enigma is - in my opinion - the worst example for D2. It was only too expensive and that's why some people didn't have it, but kind of everyone wanted to have one to bypass all the maps' content and just blink through the world.

    I agree though with the required affixes on items. I don't think the fix lies within changing the items; the fix is to change skill mechanics so that you want to use other stats. Swapping CD/IAS is one example. If there would be a belt alternative to WH with CC only, it would be a nice choice. Right now it's either a cheap WH or an expensive WH. No choice. That's my problem.
  • #15
    Well... it is a kind of solution, but I'm not sure if it's absolutely necessary.

    Sure, I get a little upset when I find a 1100 DPS sword with 300 dexterity but... bonus Magic Missile damage. Or a Mara's Kaleidoscope with 200 intelligence and... bonus Frenzy damage.

    I'd like those types of combinations to never meet (as in if the game sees the Mara's roll a barb bonus affix, it automatically rejects dexterity and intelligence and lets the Mara's roll strength), but I don't really support "rigging" affixes for drops you get in-game from killing monsters and opening treasure chests. I like the mystery. Rigging crafting recipes are enough, in my opinion.
    Blizzard Entertainment - Diablo III Community MVP
  • #16
    The Enigma example was only to show how an item can have not the best stats available but still be useful because a special characteristic, in this case, the blink.

    @JKlimek is not about finding the best items fast, it's about transforming the current MF system into something players are not annoyed with. Right now, the worst part of the game is idying all the rares. And I guess players who have 625% MF are in the same boat. IIRC, the MF works in a way that if you have more, all it does is to increase the amount of rares you see in the floor, it doesn't even increase the quality of the affixes, or the item level.
  • #17
    And I guess players who have 625% MF are in the same boat. IIRC, the MF works in a way that if you have more, all it does is to increase the amount of rares you see in the floor, it doesn't even increase the quality of the affixes, or the item level.

    Quantity and to an extent quality because it increases the chances of maximum number of affixes (thereby increasing the chances of rolling something good). It's like having more lottery tickets. 1 lotto ticket versus 100, someone with 100 is simply more likely of winning something.
    Blizzard Entertainment - Diablo III Community MVP
  • #18

    And I guess players who have 625% MF are in the same boat. IIRC, the MF works in a way that if you have more, all it does is to increase the amount of rares you see in the floor, it doesn't even increase the quality of the affixes, or the item level.

    Quantity and to an extent quality because it increases the chances of maximum number of affixes (thereby increasing the chances of rolling something good). It's like having more lottery tickets. 1 lotto ticket versus 100, someone with 100 is simply more likely of winning something.


    Sure, I agree, statistically it works that way. However, it's a pain in the ass if you have to go through all of those 100 tickets to just see that the number you want is not there. Why not assuring that at least one of the numbers is there, so you know that at least the loto ticket is not total garbage?.

    I'd prefer that way, I'd like to see less rares in the floor but of a better (or customized) quality, instead of a shit ton per second with an astronomical chance of even rolling the right affixes.

    It's not about the end result, that could be the same if well balanced, it's more about the quality of life of the MF system.
  • #19
    lol I've never once in my life heard a person who gambles on a regular basis complain that it takes too long to find out if they won. can you image all of the old fogies at the slot machines bitching about how long it takes for the wheels to stop spinning? lol
  • #20
    JKlimek, you are missing the point here.
  • To post a comment, please or register a new account.
Posts Quoted:
Reply
Clear All Quotes