Blizzard is Unaware of Diablo 3's Downfall...

  • #67
    Quote from Hiderius
    Blizzard is Unaware of Diablo 3's Downfall...


    I think they are very well aware.
    Afterall they run the servers, and they see how many People are logged in Day in and Day out.
    I'd really like to see those numbers, but Blizzard (like usual) is making a big secret out of it.
  • #68
    Nice sidestepping.

    @Bagstone: thanks, you captured the essence of what I was talking about. Never in D2 did I think "man oh man, I can get BILLIONS from this drop!"
  • #69
    Quote from TheRabidDeer

    Quote from Lord_Jaroh

    Quote from TheRabidDeer

    Somebody tell me why D3 is worse than D2 in the current state.


    Limited to no randomness within the levels/dungeons.
    Terrible Skill system.
    No Stat system.
    A lack of character investment.
    Gear check walls.
    The story.
    The tone of the game.
    The item design.
    The monster design.
    Lack of waypoint use.
    Lack of innovation and growth within the genre, and the series itself.
    The AH/RMAH.
    "Save or die" mentality in regards to monster strength/abilities.
    Catering to the lowest common denominator in design.
    Multiplayer lacking.
    Online only.

    I could keep going, but that's a start. It'd be nice if the game actually became worthy of its name, but I'm not holding my breath.

    I like how you ask for what was worse in D3 and then you simply dismiss criticism without providing anythin to back it up.

    Randomness was worthless in D2, you teleported everywhere. You just held tele until you found what you were looking for. We actively play and use more of any given level in D3 than we ever did in D2.

    Randomness was a cornerstone of Diablo 1 and 2; that you played the game and it was a different layout every time. This was something that Diablo had that no other aRPG had. In Diablo 3, instead of expanding upon that randomness and making it better, the developers instead decide to get rid of it from the overworld, and make the "chunks" within dungeons so large, that they may as well not be random.

    I did not happen to "tele" everywhere until I found what I was looking for. I played the game.

    Stat system? You mean enough str to hold gear, enough dex to max block (depending on char) then VIT VIT VIT? That is not a stat system

    As opposed to Main stat and Vit? Great improvement!

    The difference, you didn't have to just put enough strength to wear your gear and dex to block and then more vitality; you could actually make a character with vastly different stats if you wanted, and more importantly, you could make it through the game with those different stats! I could play a shout barb and pump my mana if I want to, and still play the game. Just because you chose to make a cookie-cutter doesn't mean everyone else did. And the point was, it was your choice to make that build. In Diablo 3, you have no choice.

    Lack of character investment? It takes ages to hit P100, and a P100 char is VASTLY different than a normal level 60. In terms of MF, dmg, health, and defense.

    By character investment I mean that there are no "permanent" choices that you make to make your character different from others. And what kind of arguement is P100 is different than a Level 60? A level 99 is different than a Level 1 as well, in terms of stats. Big deal. How about making a P100 different from another P100? or even a Level 60 different from a Level 60?

    This game would have been vastly improved had they done away with leveling altogether as well as different difficulty levels. Not that I would have liked to see that either in a Diablo game, but from a design standpoint, it would have made for a much better game.

    I agree there is still a bit of a gear check wall, but its not that bad anymore.

    And I still think it is bad, and needs vast improvement. It would have worked wonderfully had Inferno actually been what they announced the level as, as more of a challenge thing, where you were level 60 and everything else was a flat 61+. They should have got rid of "level 61+" items, and removed the item hunt from Inferno. Make Inferno more like "God Mode" in God of War, a "challenge" to beat that requires skill and thinking, rather than just another item wall.

    Story was average, I never was invested in the Diablo storyline though, so I cant really comment

    And I played Diablo because of the well designed story and lore. That and you could ignore the story while playing the game. if you wished. This was especially important the 900th time you've played through the game. The developers of Diablo 3 seem to have forgotten that part and crafted not only a story that any 5 year old would find silly, but they shove it in your face every chance you get, forcing you to replay quests over and over in order to go anywhere!

    Tone? What is wrong with the tone?

    The tone does not have that dark and forboding feel to it that Diablo is known for. The characters have become too stylized, as well as the monsters and many of the backgrounds, to the point that it doesn't feel like Diablo anymore. It is why people are looking at games such as Grim Dawn and Path of Exile and calling them more Diablo sequels than Diablo 3!

    Item design is hugely improved, I am looking forward to what they will add in the expansion given how much LoD improved D2's itemization

    The itemization was severely lacking at launch, both in quantity of items as well as quality of items, as well as the design of uniques, the number of mods, crafting, the item tiers, the hunt itself, and much of that has not improved. They have given a few more high level Legendaries. And? I don't care how much an expansion improved upon the original. I care with what D3 launched with. Ford doesn't go back to the Model T every time it designs a new vehicle. It takes what has been put in the past and improves upon it. Should we not have air conditioning in cars because the original ones didn't come with it?

    Monster design? What is wrong with them? Aside from some annoying monsters (like the guys that can leap and are immune while leaping)... I see nothing wrong

    The monster design aesthetically as well as their attacks are lacking. Not only that, but we were promised monsters that were actually tougher as difficulties increased, with new and varied attacks that make them more interesting to fight a second and third time over. Design-wise, many monsters are far too stylized. As well, there is no variety in monsters as you progress. I would rather have had the blue/green/red etc colored palettes of monsters to visually show we were fighting tougher beasts (Devilkins as opposed to Fallen for example).

    Waypoint use? Used all the time, no clue what youre talking about. Do you play the game if you think they arent used? Itd be nicer if we could waypoint between acts, but we use them all the time.

    The point of waypoints in the second game was so we could quickly get to where we wish to and start killing. We could jump between acts and areas as well as go to town when we have no town portals. There is no point to the waypoint system in Diablo 3. You don't have town portal scrolls, so you never run out. There are checkpoints that have no bearing on the waypoints that save your progress in the game, and you use the story to jump around the game. This is just one example of how little actual thought was put into the design of this game!

    What would you innovate? How? People complained when they removed the stat system, so how do you innovate in a series with fans that seem to hate any deviation from D2 at all?

    Oh, I don't know. How about looking how Grim Dawn, Path of Exile, Lineage Eternal, Torchlight 2 are all improving upon the genre, or adding new ideas to it? Removing the stat system was not innovating! That was simply removing something that they couldn't be bothered with trying to "fix" (actually it was to tie people closer to items, and in that respect closer to the auction house, but that is besides the point). They didn't replace it with anything new. I could list dozens of improvements to the game that would fall within the style of Diablo. I'm sure that if the developers put their mind to it, they could have done something rather than trying to re-invent the wheel.

    AH/RMAH is no different than the trade/barter system in D2, just simplified and efficient. What used to take hours or days of looking in trade channels or posting on d2jsp to trade your 20 sojs or your WF for the item of your choice, you can sell your "soj" or "wf" equivalent for a currency and buy what you want that way.

    What is the point of hunting for items in an item hunt game when you can just buy what you want when you want?

    I dont understand what you mean by "save or die" for monster strength/abilities

    Either you have the numbers to withstand an attack or you don't, through gear checks and random rolls (damage spikes). There is no skill involved in dodging/avoiding attacks. This is what they promised not to have in the game, by the way, and yet, there it is, plain as day, throughout the game, but especially prevalent in Inferno.

    How did they cater to LCD?

    They took away weapon attack types.
    They took away elemental weapon types.
    They took away weapon swapping.
    They took away voluntary stat choices.
    They took away permanent skill choices.
    They reduced the number of gems.
    They reduced the number of shrines.
    They got rid of Stamina, and introduced new "resources" that add nothing to the game.
    They added many tips and such that show up even when you turn them off in the menu.
    They simplified the stat system.
    They reduced white items to being worthless.

    These are just a few things off the top of my head.

    Multiplayer is the same in D3 as it is in D2 outside of PvP. Blame the community of people, not the game

    No, I blame the game design, and designers for not creating incentive to actually play multiplayer within a multiplayer game.
    Online only? Valid argument for some, but many didnt ever play offline and those that did were to create a character build to try so that they didnt have to level one up fresh and learn they hated it, wasting time.

    Online only is a requirement to funnel everyone through their auction house, in the hopes they will spend money. It certainly didn't help with bots and dupes as they said it would.
  • #70
    Quote from Lord_Jaroh
    They should have got rid of "level 61+" items, and removed the item hunt from Inferno. Make Inferno more like "God Mode" in God of War, a "challenge" to beat that requires skill and thinking, rather than just another item wall.


    This is actually a really good point. Some people like to go around saying "oh, Inferno is not supposed to be for everyone, it was supposed to take you months to beat it, etc". Well, the moment you have items that only drop in Inferno (all the best ones) is the moment you tell people it IS for everyone.
  • #71
    Quote from Bleu42

    They OWN the mmorpg market, they OWN the RTS market, they CREATED the arpg market.


    True with MMOs, not true with RTS (LoL is now bigger than SC), obviously, they damaged any dominance they had with ARPGs with the reception of D3.

    FWIW, wall street agrees with you this morning.
  • #72
    Quote from Gheed2010

    Quote from Bleu42

    They OWN the mmorpg market, they OWN the RTS market, they CREATED the arpg market.


    True with MMOs, not true with RTS (LoL is now bigger than SC), obviously, they damaged any dominance they had with ARPGs with the reception of D3.

    FWIW, wall street agrees with you this morning.


    I have never heard anyone refer to LoL (I admit, I even had to look it up what that is, I guess you're talking about the DoTa imitation called League of Legends) as an RTS.

    SC2 owns the RTS market, period.
    And I have yet to see an ARPG that is better than D3.
  • #73
    DotA is the genre, which some new people now refer to as MOBA, since DotA was taken as an official name for a single game. It's a genre with not more than 10 years and is still pretty untapped, just a few major titles in the last 5 years.

    RTS is a 20+ year genre and SC2 rules it with an iron fist.

    Ha. Bagstone.

  • #74
    Can we really accept Metacritic as an accurate gauge of player satisfaction when we're taking about the opinions of 3 thousand players out of a total of 12 million?

    No one else finds that kind of silly?

    That's about 0.00025% of total players. Microscopic. I mean, you could say, "This game bummed me out. I don't like it." But to point to that tiny number of players and say, "Welp, there ya go, no one likes it." Hmmm!

    They got rid of Stamina, and introduced new "resources" that add nothing to the game.


    Resources are awesome. You have to manage them, you have to balance your skill usage in an interesting way, it interacts dynamically with your builds, it gives you a feeling of power when you go from only casting Pillar of Light once in a while to all the damn time because you've gotten so much spirit regen, it gives each class a bit of uniqueness in how you manage their resources, and how it feels to manage that, and most importantly it is tactical. It's honestly one of the more interesting advancements this game has made.

    I cannot fathom why anyone would prefer simple mana pot spam to this highly dynamic resource system.

    I think you should play the game more Lord_Jaroh.
  • #75
    You people always say that only the angry/haters/non-satisfied players are the ones who vote/qualify/create threads. But what about the players that just don't care?, that just uninstall the game and forget about it and move on?, how many are they?, 1000?, 500000?, 3/4 of the entire player base since release?, no idea, but you cant let them out of the equation.
  • #76
    @IgnatiusReilly: there aren't 12 million people playing the game at this point in time. I'd be very surprised if the number of people that log in even once a week (which is not a lot) even reaches 1 million. I seriously doubt it.
    Why would you say is the reason many people stopped playing? Dissatisfaction with the game, or too much satisfaction? ;)
  • #77
    Quote from Bagstone
    And I have yet to see an ARPG that is better than D3.


    I could agree with you, but then we both would be wrong :)

    Quote from IgnatiusReilly
    Can we really accept Metacritic as an accurate gauge of player satisfaction when we're taking about the opinions of 3 thousand players out of a total of 12 million?


    Actually, its close to 8000 votes.
    And 1000 is already more then enouth for a accurate Rating.
  • #78
    yes ... all u disatisfied D3 player leave or abandon the game ... and hopefully the prices in the AH for items I want will drop to an affordable level for noob like me ....
  • #79
    Quote from Xenocow

    Quote from IgnatiusReilly
    Can we really accept Metacritic as an accurate gauge of player satisfaction when we're taking about the opinions of 3 thousand players out of a total of 12 million?


    Actually, its close to 8000 votes.
    And 1000 is already more then enouth for a accurate Rating.


    D3 may be bad, but it's not 0/10 bad. I have never played a game that was so bad that I'd rate it 0/10, and D3 is certainly not the worst game I've played. So, yes, there's severe reason to question metacritic scores because it sure seems like a bunch of butthurt nerds trying to have their vengeance.

    I seriously challenge *anyone* to explain to me what exactly a 0/10 score entails. How bad does a game have to be to earn that score? At least 30% of the metacritic scores are 0/10. If you filtered out those 30% you'd probably have a much more accurate sense of what D3's actual user score is - probably something closer to 7.0.

    Your logic reminds me of this commercial:


    "They can't put anything on the internet that isn't true."
    "Where'd you hear that?"
    "The internet."

    There's no possibility that said metacritic ratings weren't more a result of trolling than anything else. We've already seen how juvenile the Diablo community behaves on the official forums. It's such a stretch to think that a couple thousand of them could have went ape shit on metacritic because that was how they chose to express their immaturity and dissatisfaction. Such a complete stretch.

    The whole premise is flawed because the results call into question the legitemacy of the voting procedures. It'd be no different if I organized 15,000 people to all go give D3 10/10 right now. Suddenly D3 has a user score of 9.1 and you'd be the first person to say "NO WAY LOOK AT ALL THOSE GUYS WHO RATED IT 10/10 IT WAS FIXED."

    But when it's all zeros it couldn't possibly be fixed - that's legitemate voting in your eyes, not something that should be called into question. That's the sure sign that you're biased. You're not objectively analyzing the situation, you just want to express your negative opinion. And, honestly, you're entitled to that... but you're also completely wrong and undeducated.

    I love the internet.
    p438 :: 90.5k EK :: 2.50m TK
    Planet Express <PlanEx>
    (V) (°,,°) (V)
  • #80
    I don't know how people still feel victimized by D3. There is still this myth that the game is somehow incomplete, when in reality most detractors just want the old Diablo 2 systems back (skill and stat allocation, potions, and trading without the ah).
  • #81
    Quote from Lord_Jaroh

    Stat system? You mean enough str to hold gear, enough dex to max block (depending on char) then VIT VIT VIT? That is not a stat system

    As opposed to Main stat and Vit? Great improvement!

    The difference, you didn't have to just put enough strength to wear your gear and dex to block and then more vitality; you could actually make a character with vastly different stats if you wanted, and more importantly, you could make it through the game with those different stats! I could play a shout barb and pump my mana if I want to, and still play the game. Just because you chose to make a cookie-cutter doesn't mean everyone else did. And the point was, it was your choice to make that build. In Diablo 3, you have no choice.


    Well you can also play dodge barb if you choose to do so, the difference is, you don't have to commit hundreds of hours to re-level your character, just commit few hundred milions of gold which you might not be able to get back. Such route is just as viable as your mana shout barb in D2, you can farm best gear in the game with it.


    I agree there is still a bit of a gear check wall, but its not that bad anymore.

    And I still think it is bad, and needs vast improvement. It would have worked wonderfully had Inferno actually been what they announced the level as, as more of a challenge thing, where you were level 60 and everything else was a flat 61+. They should have got rid of "level 61+" items, and removed the item hunt from Inferno. Make Inferno more like "God Mode" in God of War, a "challenge" to beat that requires skill and thinking, rather than just another item wall.


    God of War is a different genre, there is no loot to find. Diablo is about finding loot. For this loot to have any meaning in PvE, gear check is absolutely required. Inferno shouldn't be in D3 in the first place, but at least they fixed it a bit with addition of MP.


    Tone? What is wrong with the tone?

    The tone does not have that dark and forboding feel to it that Diablo is known for. The characters have become too stylized, as well as the monsters and many of the backgrounds, to the point that it doesn't feel like Diablo anymore. It is why people are looking at games such as Grim Dawn and Path of Exile and calling them more Diablo sequels than Diablo 3!


    Well, in my opinion, at least act 1 had very memorable, well done moments. Man talking to corpse of his dead wife while her head fell off, vision of Leoric executing his own wife. There were many nice "dark" elements. Unless by "dark" you mean boring, dull vision of the game where you basicly can't see a thing, like some maps in PoE, then yeah, D3 have pretty clear vision all the time.


    AH/RMAH is no different than the trade/barter system in D2, just simplified and efficient. What used to take hours or days of looking in trade channels or posting on d2jsp to trade your 20 sojs or your WF for the item of your choice, you can sell your "soj" or "wf" equivalent for a currency and buy what you want that way.

    What is the point of hunting for items in an item hunt game when you can just buy what you want when you want?


    I hunted for items for 1300 hours already. I'm still far from having what I want, even though I buy and sell alot in GAH. I like that I can sell items worth few milion gold without much effort and it gets me that tiny little bit closer to upgrade. Hell, in all honesty there are some items that I want and thoes are very rarely present in any AH. Some items are even worth more than 2b gold which is max, and you need to look for them elsewhere.


    I dont understand what you mean by "save or die" for monster strength/abilities

    Either you have the numbers to withstand an attack or you don't, through gear checks and random rolls (damage spikes). There is no skill involved in dodging/avoiding attacks. This is what they promised not to have in the game, by the way, and yet, there it is, plain as day, throughout the game, but especially prevalent in Inferno.


    I don't quite understand. You can dodge most ranged attacks, you can kite, you can time your skills like Slow Time, it's not like you either get one shotted or you survive it all while not moving, there is quite a lot between, and dodging attacks, kiting helps just like better gear, sometimes when you are facing tougher elite pack on high MP, moving 2 yards might mean more than additional 300k EHP in gear. Most players just choose to faceroll what they can on lowest MP, doesn't mean you have to, even if you go for most efficient farming.


    Online only? Valid argument for some, but many didnt ever play offline and those that did were to create a character build to try so that they didnt have to level one up fresh and learn they hated it, wasting time.

    Online only is a requirement to funnel everyone through their auction house, in the hopes they will spend money. It certainly didn't help with bots and dupes as they said it would.


    Isn't PoE online only too? There is no auction house.
  • #82
    Quote from shaggy
    D3 may be bad, but it's not 0/10 bad. I have never played a game that was so bad that I'd rate it 0/10, and D3 is certainly not the worst game I've played. So, yes, there's severe reason to question metacritic scores because it sure seems like a bunch of butthurt nerds trying to have their vengeance.


    Valid point. But i can turn it around.
    What about the people who voted 10/10...?
    Is it a 10 in your Eyes ?

    Why does your 10 counts more as a 0 of a so called "butthurt nerd" ?

    In the end it equals out, doesnt matter what you vote really.
    If the people are happy they vote high, if the people are angry they vote low.

    So the 3.8 is very realistic, and shows there are more angry people who are not pleased with the game.
  • #83
    Quote from Xenocow

    I think they are very well aware.
    Afterall they run the servers, and they see how many People are logged in Day in and Day out.
    I'd really like to see those numbers, but Blizzard (like usual) is making a big secret out of it.


    Blizz won't release Diablo 3 stats about active players from launch to present, because it would show a sharp decline. There's nothing to brag about.

    Quote from Xenocow

    In the end it equals out, doesnt matter what you vote really.
    If the people are happy they vote high, if the people are angry they vote low.

    So the 3.8 is very realistic, and shows there are more angry people who are not pleased with the game.


    Yes, hear, hear!

    Starcraft II: Wings of Liberty got an average user rating of 8.1 / 10 on metacritic. Big difference compared to Diablo 3's 3.8 / 10 lol. :P
  • #84
    Quote from Hiderius
    Blizz won't release Diablo 3 stats about active players from launch to present, because it would show a sharp decline. There's nothing to brag about.


    Transparency is a virtue long lost at Blizzard.

    Quote from Hiderius
    Starcraft II: Wings of Liberty got an average user rating of 8.1 / 10



    Because SC2 is awsome. I dont play it, i have no reason to love it...but i do.
  • #85
    Quote from Xenocow

    Quote from shaggy
    D3 may be bad, but it's not 0/10 bad. I have never played a game that was so bad that I'd rate it 0/10, and D3 is certainly not the worst game I've played. So, yes, there's severe reason to question metacritic scores because it sure seems like a bunch of butthurt nerds trying to have their vengeance.


    Valid point. But i can turn it around.
    What about the people who voted 10/10...?
    Is it a 10 in your Eyes ?

    Why does your 10 counts more as a 0 of a so called "butthurt nerd" ?

    In the end it equals out, doesnt matter what you vote really.
    If the people are happy they vote high, if the people are angry they vote low.

    So the 3.8 is very realistic, and shows there are more angry people who are not pleased with the game.


    Anyone who gave it a 10/10 needs to have their head checked, but the fact remains that the 0/10 scores outweigh the 10/10 scores by a ratio of about 5:1. So the "real" score (ignoring butthurt nerds and fanboys alike) is probably closer to 6.5-7.0 and NOT 3.8.

    http://www.metacriti...me/pc/seduce-me

    That is the kind of game I expect in the sub-4.0 range. It's clearly a terrible game with absolutely no redeeming qualities. There's no point in sitting here trying to say D3 is even close to that level because anyone with a functional brain knows that D3, even with its flaws, is light years beyond that game and others of its ilk. Notice that it seems much more reasonable when the critic score and the user score are within the same realm - it lends a bit of credence to both scores.

    EDIT
    I'm not trying to BS you or get you pissed off or anything. I fully admit that people who gave the game a perfect score were "trolling" in the other direction. But I just want people to understand that when they look at the 3.8 score... if you factor out ALL of the obvious trolling... that score is much closer to 6.5-7.0, which is MUCH more reflective of what D3 is - it's a solid baseline that needs improvement. And I fully understand that there were people who were expecting a 9.0 game and I do understand their disappointment.
    p438 :: 90.5k EK :: 2.50m TK
    Planet Express <PlanEx>
    (V) (°,,°) (V)
  • #86
    Quote from Xenocow

    Quote from IgnatiusReilly
    Can we really accept Metacritic as an accurate gauge of player satisfaction when we're taking about the opinions of 3 thousand players out of a total of 12 million?


    Actually, its close to 8000 votes.
    And 1000 is already more then enouth for a accurate Rating.


    1000 people is enough to represent 12 million people? Hm, if we turn that to percentages it's... 0.008333333333333333, repeating of course, but let's round it up to say.. 0.0084%. PoE's largest population (for example) has been just over 65k, since that's the point where the servers started choking up. If you know a more recent number, please do inform me, I like knowing these things. So anyway, that's 5.46 people that I can ask about PoE and if they say "the game is shit", well I better not pick it up then, no? Those 8000 votes doesn't really do it justice either. That way I'll need to read about 44 comments to know what a nice percentage of the population is thinking about the game. Not to mention not all votes were actually negative.

    Maybe if we decide to not trust that 0.0084% and instead try and see what people that have a job evaluating these things said. Like, game reviewers maybe. Oh, they don't count, they got paid by Blizzard most likely and/or don't know what ARPGs are.

    Ha. Bagstone.

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