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Blizzard is Unaware of Diablo 3's Downfall...

  • #193
    I have to say that this "D3 vs PoE" map evaluation is extremely biased and subjective. I don't like big, complex maps, and I have no idea what "sense of wonder" means. Replayability is obviously just a matter of "what you like".

    Not to say that I want linear maps, and I can clearly say that the static maps in the predecessors of Diablo (the boss rooms) were pretty annoying, as are the few number of tiles in D3 that wear out pretty quickly (Keep 2 seems to have only ~5 elements that generate the map). But I hated the parts in act 3 of D2 where you would just run into a dead end street, just like you sometimes do in Keep 2 or Crater 2. I loved the parts of act 3 in D2 or all the levels in D1 that were square levels such that you kind of had a sense of where to go next. Act 5 in D2 was also something that I liked. Read: something that I liked, not something that was better, design is purely subjective.

    Just add some more tiles for D3, get rid of areas like Bridge and Core and so on, and it would be fine with me. Complex, bigger maps? Don't see why. Haven't played PoE yet, but even the maps in TL2 were too big for me.
  • #194
    After playing Path of Exile for a while. Here's my opinion thus far:

    Graphics:
    Path of Exile has a darker, more detailed and realistic graphics style. I think the lighting enhances the graphics of PoE a lot, and detailed textures greatly increases immersion.

    Whereas Diablo 3's graphics are brighter, and unfortunately the textures are less detailed, more blurry. D3's lighting system is more basic too. Thus D3 doesn't feel as creepy or spooky as it should, and it doesn't draw the player in as much.
    Winner: Path of Exile (Feb 2012)

    Gameplay:
    Combat in PoE is slower, but feels like it has more weight to it, and thus its more satisfying when killing mobs. Diablo 3's combat is faster, but that makes it feel quite like a "meat grinder".
    Winner: Undecided (Feb 2012)

    Trade System:
    I dislike PoE's more primitive Barter system, lack of coins or gold. Because this makes trade for items much more difficult when it requires a specific amount of X, Y or Z to get something. Coins, Money was invented for very useful reasons: e.g. to simplify trade between people, and allow easier storage of savings.
    Winner: Diablo 3 (Feb 2012).

    Skill Tree:
    The Skill Tree of Path of Exile is Enormous, and confusing. I give props to D3 for ease of use. However, Path of Exile offers much more freedom and options to create very personalized and more unique characters.
    Winner: Path of Exile (Feb 2012).
  • #195
    /edit/ whoopsie wrong quoted...

    Quote from Hiderius
    Trade System:
    I dislike PoE's more primitive Barter system, lack of coins or gold. Because this makes trade for items much more difficult when it requires a specific amount of X, Y or Z to get something. Coins, Money was invented for very useful reasons: e.g. to simplify trade between people, and allow easier storage of savings.
    Winner: Diablo 3 (Feb 2012).


    I disagree, it isnt primitive...its actually evolutionary.
    Gold isnt needed, and Gold leads to problems as you can see in D3.
    Inflation, Deflation etc...Wealth in aRPG's isnt measured in the Gold you have.
    Its measured in the Items you own, the people in D2 already realized that and they traded in SoJ's, Runes etc.
    PoE does this no different.

    However, i would love a better way to actually trade stuff... perhaps a Hawker in Town, or something like that.
    It doesnt necessary have to be a AH...but some Plattform for easy Trading would be great.
  • #196
    Quote from Xenocow
    I disagree, it isnt primitive...its actually evolutionary.

    Its measured in the Items you own, the people in D2 already realized that and they traded in SoJ's, Runes etc.
    PoE does this no different.


    I should've clarified that PoE has semi-barter. In reality barter is primitive. PoE doesn't have a pure barter system though, because they replace coins (money) with other in-between substitutes. That makes it more flexible than barter. However, the lack of a currency does somewhat impair direct trade among players and NPCs and complicates saving up. Because now you must have X, Y or Z to get B.

    In Diablo 3 you only need a certain amount of X (gold) to get anything in the auction house.

    Quote from Xenocow
    Gold isnt needed, and Gold leads to problems as you can see in D3. Inflation, Deflation etc...Wealth in aRPG's isnt measured in the Gold you have.


    Irregular inflation, deflation happens because trade and gold is controlled and manipulated by Blizzard, instead of a natural free market.

    Update; what causes (fast) inflation too is the fact that Gold of D3 isn't tied to a real comodity or precious metal to keep it stable. For example: the gold standard prevents governments from printing money and flooding the market to fund excessive expenses.
    This is why FIAT currencies are unstable, because they're not tied to anything to prevent harmful money printing and "stimulus".
    FIAT currencies actually aren't worth more than the paper bills and digital numbers, because it's not backed by anything. As such FIAT currencies lost value tremendously during the last couple of decades.
  • #197
    I dunno really :)
    Haggling with Goods is way more fun in my opinion as simply putting a Number on a Item.
    But of course thats only my opinion.
  • #198
    Quote from Hiderius

    After playing Path of Exile for a while. Here's my opinion thus far:


    I find it baffling that someone actually thinks the graphics of PoE are superior to D3. But then again, you mostly talk about the style of the graphics, not graphics quality. D3 has unique graphics for nearly all items per class and gender, superior animations in every aspect and yes, a lot of detail. Even the login screens of D3 are just amazing. PoE's graphics are very simplistic and it is sometimes hard to tell what is going on in combat. Also, saying that D3 is "brighter" is kind of funny because the outdoors in PoE literally burn my eyes (the sand beaches in Act 1, the town areas in Act 3 etc.)

    The combat too goes to D3 hands down and the constant desyncing in PoE doesn't help. Also the design decision of not giving the player any feedback from misses is horrible. Luckily I took Resolute Technique for my Marauder.

    I do like the skill gem system in PoE but at the moment the skills lack variety. You can create a lot of different combinations with the support gems but the skills themselves are a bit boring and basically just copy-paste from each other for different weapon types or elements (at least for the Marauder).

    Other thing I like about PoE is that equipment can have "game changing" attributes and the unique items are not just "BiS" items but instead they are items you can build a character around. But still, I'll rather just play D3 until they fix the desyncing and bring more skills to the game.
  • #199
    If I had to attempt to do a "review" of each game it'd go something like this:

    GRAPHICS
    Diablo 3 - Some would say the graphics are cartoony, and I certainly can see where they're coming from, but the level of detail (especially in the environment and background) and the fluidity of the graphics are simply amazing. Their vision was to make it seem like you were part of a "moving painting" and they hit that nail square on the head. You can feel the evil oozing out of most of the places in the game (outdoor areas being a general exception, as had been in D2) but most notably the Halls of Agony. If you can go through that area and not feel that you're in a twisted, depraved, world then you're just not seeing everything. -- 9/10

    Path of Exile - The style just misses it for me. It's like someone took the graphics from D2 and TitanQuest and forced them into the blender with Freddy Kreuger and Jason Vorhees and said "well all four of these things are awesome so when we blend them together the result has to be awesome." They were wrong. That is not to say that the graphics are bad, because they aren't, they just miss the mark. The outdoor areas are bland and uninsipred and the cavern areas become exceptionally repetitive. The monsters you fight show tremendous creativity, but I still have absolutely no clue why one moment I'm fighting a human archer and the next moment I'm fighting some squid thing and the next moment I'm fighting a bear and then I'm fighting a rock monster. There is no commonality between them. There is no reason for these things to co-exist. It's like the art (particularly through the bestiary) is stuck halfway between a semi-realistic game and a fantasy game and I just wish it would make up its mind. -- 7.5/10

    GAMEPLAY
    Diablo 3 - Smooth, fast, and dynamic combat, just like its predecessors, but you're generally going to use more than one button now. Diablo 3 definitely hits it out of the park on the "action" elements of an ARPG. Warning, if you're heavy into the RPG elements you may be disappointed. -- 9/10

    Path of Exile - If you're heavy into the RPG elements of an ARPG this will be the game for you. The action, however, is generally lackluster. It is exceptionally difficult to see what is going on in combat because there are no nameplates. Yes, who would have thought that something as simple as nameplates could help you identify hostile monsters easier than not having nameplates. For this reason it seems that the predominate way to build any character is to use some form of insicrimnate AoE. Generally you do this in D3 as well, but because those are the best spells. In PoE you're doing it primarily because if you tried to use spells that didn't "think" for you then you'd put your fist through a wall before you hit level 10. The RPG side is solid with the passives and the skill gems (both are pretty cool) but the action side is very, very, very lacking due to combat that can't even hold a candle to D2, let alone be respectable in the 2010s. Constant desynching coupled with XP loss on death is nerdrage-inducing on Cruel and Merciless. -- 7/10

    TRADE SYSTEM
    Diablo 3 - Straightforward. Easy to use. Arguably too easy. -- 7/10

    Path of Exile - Unnecessarily complex. They have a great idea here, a truly great idea. As best I can relate it to the Diablo world, I'd have to say it would be like if Runes were the only form of currency in Diablo 2. The problem with PoE is that it's just too damned complex. New players will never pick it up quickly enough. After weeks of play I still need a browser tab opened to the Wiki site so that I can figure things out. www.poeex.com - that will give you an idea of how complex the currency system is. It's brutal. This is a prime example of taking a very solid idea and overdoing it to the point of harm. A litle less complexity would have gone a long way to making this one of the most enjoyable systems out there. -- 7/10

    ITEMIZATION
    Diablo 3 - Ugly. Too many offensive properties which are outright mandatory which completely make it such that defensive/utility properties are overlooked. Lack of customization through gear because there is no reason to do so. Everyone wants max DPS and in order to achieve that everyone's gear looks basically the same. Room must be made for the other stats on gear otherwise the system is just not functional. -- 5/10

    Path of Exile - If you thought finding appropriate gear in D3 was hard, well you've got another think coming. In order to get a "BiS" item in PoE you'll be searching twice as hard. But you won't be searching for items, you'll be searching for orbs to reroll the items properties. Yes, you heard me right. You're not really hunting for items. You're hunting for items that allow you to re-randomize various attributes (what stats an item has, what values each stat has, number of sockets, colors of sockets, links between sockets, etc.). In essence, this makes the best items rarer than that in D3 - six-socket items are ridiculously hard to randomize an ideal socket + link setup - if you'd believe that. Still, you're not stuck with having to find purely-offensive items which gives it a leg up on what D3 currently has. -- 7/10

    FINAL THOUGHTS
    Diablo 3 - There is work to be done. I dare say that no game is perfect, and this applies to every game I've ever played. I have the utmost confidence that this work will get done. However, I think that competition is a good thing and that the presence of PoE for D3, and the presence of D3 for PoE, will ultimately lead to them both being better games.

    Path of Exile - Frankly, I feel like the game is purposefully designed to be unfriendly to people who are new. I don't like this at all. It's easily my biggest frustration with the game. Any new person should have a reasonable chance to succeed in a game. You simply don't in Path of Exile. 99 out of 100 times the new guy will just do something with his character that isn't right and be forced to start over until he breaks down and goes to the forums and finds out what has worked for someone else. What it feels like to me is the unrelenting theorycrafting of World of Warcraft meets a system which is harshly punitive if you don't know what you're going to do before you do it. Didn't research and figure out your build ahead of time? OK, well all your time is wasted, start again. Undoubtedly some people really like this. I am not one of them, and I think that long-term it's a very bad thing for the game because it's tremendously frustrating to be new to the game. The game might kick major ass at level 80, but if the barriers to entry are so high that many people quit before level 20 then you're stuck with a niche game with a small population. What you're left with is a game where new blood is difficult to attract and that is a huge issue for a game which rarely has more than 20 public games anyway. New blood is necessary for PoE, but PoE is specifically designed to not be friendly to new people. That's a catch-22.

    EDIT
    One completely irrelevant thing that I *love* about Path of Exile is that its XP bar is based on XP earned so far. So if Level 1 takes 100 points and level 2 takes 200 points, when you're in Level 2 the XP bar will display, say 250/300. I don't know why I like it, but I *really* like it.
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  • #200
    Cool, thanks shaggy. Actually the first review that gives me an impression of what differentiates PoE from D3. 30 points D3, 28.5 PoE - be prepared for the wrath of some PoE fans though ;-P

    I'm gonna try it at some point; probably not beta, but once it goes live. And thanks to your review I know that I should read up some guides *before* playing, because I really hate wasting time and having to delete a character whose skills are broken due to "wrong choices" on my side.

    What are the limitations of the beta at this point, btw? Is the entire game, all items, quests, levels and so on accessible or is it restricted in any way?
  • #201
    You have access to the whole game right now. They say they're done wiping characters too, which is very cool. It's absolutely worth a shot. I don't dislike PoE, honestly. I can live with the fact that the art is not to my liking. Those kinds of things don't keep me from playing the game.

    Right now the main thing that's keeping me from playing it (I've been playing D3 almost exclusively since 1.0.7) is that I desynched like a madman on Monday night and ended up with less XP than I started with after 45-60 minutes of playing. It was one of the most unfulfilling and futile feelings I've experienced in a video game. So, to save my sanity, PoE goes on the back burner for a while. I know they're working on servers and network stuff constantly so I don't have any reason to believe it will be a persistent problem. But, make no mistake, the minute you lose XP to a desynch, you will want to punch someone/something.


    Quote from Bagstone

    I'm gonna try it at some point; probably not beta, but once it goes live. And thanks to your review I know that I should read up some guides *before* playing, because I really hate wasting time and having to delete a character whose skills are broken due to "wrong choices" on my side.


    That's the single biggest thing I can recommend anyone who wants to jump into PoE. It will greatly increase your enjoyment and reduce your frustration.


    EDIT
    Just to be perfectly clear, before anyone gets up my ass - if you are into the RPG elements of an ARPG, you are almost certainly going to prefer PoE as it certainly caters to that. If you prefer the A of the ARPG then you're almost certainly going to prefer D3. I think this is brutally obvious based on past discussions, but it's worth stating many times over because I think that's the clear "major difference" between the two.
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  • #202
    Quote from shaggy

    You have access to the whole game right now. They say they're done wiping characters too, which is very cool. It's absolutely worth a shot. I don't dislike PoE, honestly. I can live with the fact that the art is not to my liking. Those kinds of things don't keep me from playing the game.

    Right now the main thing that's keeping me from playing it (I've been playing D3 almost exclusively since 1.0.7) is that I desynched like a madman on Monday night and ended up with less XP than I started with after 45-60 minutes of playing. It was one of the most unfulfilling and futile feelings I've experienced in a video game. So, to save my sanity, PoE goes on the back burner for a while. I know they're working on servers and network stuff constantly so I don't have any reason to believe it will be a persistent problem. But, make no mistake, the minute you lose XP to a desynch, you will want to punch someone/something.


    Like he said, you have access to the full game.

    Well, that is, the full game up to this point. In the Open Beta there are three acts (and 3 difficulties). On 'release', it is said there will be more acts, possibly many more, and maybe another difficulty, I'm not sure.

    Itemization is wonderfully refreshing compared to D3.
    Character customization there - although there are some cookie-cutter builds starting to emerge for 'high end' players.
    Combat has a small difference in feel compared to D3, and the hit boxes are much smaller. Once you get the feel for it, it's actually better, imo.
    The music is astounding.
    The graphics are astounding.
    The game can be difficult, without griefing. There are no intentional designer griefing elements in the game that I can think of (you know, where they were too lazy to design a real encounter and make it difficult, so they just added ridiculous monster X just to piss you off when you had to fight it... there's none of that).

    I could go on. It's my favorite game, hands down. I haven't played another game, or even really wanted to, since I began playing PoE. 10/10 imo

    As for the desync and rubberbanding, don't let it discourage you. Yes, it's there. For some, it's really prominent. For others, it isn't. I very rarely have a problem with the desync, and only have the occassional lag spike. It's really not that bad.

    One thing you do have to watch out for, if you are playing HC, is going afk when not in town. Each area has a "living" feel to it, meaning the monsters don't just stand in one spot and wait for you to come slaughter them. They patrol and wander around, and if they catch you afk in the corner, you could return to your computer dead. :)

    Also, if you are new, and you are not sure which class to start with, go ranged. However you do your build, go ranged. Oh, and don't pick Duelist. After you have your feet wet, melee will be better for you if you like melee. But at first, definitely go ranged. The combat and flow of the game is unique in and of itself, and you really want to get used to it in all acts and difficulties before throwing yourself into the fray as a meatshield.
  • #203
    Quote from Bagstone


    I'm gonna try it at some point; probably not beta, but once it goes live. And thanks to your review I know that I should read up some guides *before* playing, because I really hate wasting time and having to delete a character whose skills are broken due to "wrong choices" on my side.


    That's the single biggest thing I can recommend anyone who wants to jump into PoE. It will greatly increase your enjoyment and reduce your frustration.


    Unless you do hours of research, your first character is probably going to suck. For someone not doing any research, just play the game and learn the ropes, try not to spend any of your orbs, and take your character as far as you can until you realize that you need to do some research.

    Quote from Bagstone

    EDIT
    Just to be perfectly clear, before anyone gets up my ass - if you are into the RPG elements of an ARPG, you are almost certainly going to prefer PoE as it certainly caters to that. If you prefer the A of the ARPG then you're almost certainly going to prefer D3. I think this is brutally obvious based on past discussions, but it's worth stating many times over because I think that's the clear "major difference" between the two.


    Too late for someone to not 'get up your ass'.

    The RPG elements of PoE are better than D3's, yes. The story and plot are actually intriguing, and it doesn't seem like it was written by a 5th grader, like D3.

    As for the Action element... you've got to be kidding me. The action in D3 simply doesn't compare to the type of action available in PoE. It really doesn't compare. Unless/until you have played a character at level 70+, and experienced all forms of content in groups and such, then you probably won't understand how dynamic and insanely fun the combat of PoE is.

    But by no means is "everyone" that likes 'the A of the ARPG' going to like D3 better. First, that's flawed logic. Second, PoE > D3. There is a reason why so many people are flocking over to it... and staying with it, and it's not the compelling story line that you are completely finished with by level 65 (although the story line is great).

    Example.
  • #204
    Quote from Azidonis
    Unless you do hours of research, your first character is probably going to suck. For someone not doing any research, just play the game and learn the ropes, try not to spend any of your orbs, and take your character as far as you can until you realize that you need to do some research.


    Heh i didnt :-)
    Didnt looked at Guides, didnt really look at the Passive Tree, didnt read much at all :-)
    And suprisingly my First Char turned out pretty awsome actually *g*

    Fire Witch, with LMP Fireball (20%)...Firetraps for AE (around 5500dps)...Spectre Tank, and few Utility Spells.

    I've hit 75 last night, and i am kinda hitting a Wall right now...
    Right now leveling should be possible up to 80 in the Act's. Past that you only earn Exp via Maps...
    They plan to extend the third Act, and add a complete fourth Act in the future, and i hope you can use those to Level past 80.

    I am thinking about a Ice shot, Ice Trap ranger...hmmm so many possibilitys.
    Or perhaps some stylish 2h Duellist...or a Lightning Witch...found some crazy Uniques...

    i dunno yet, need to figure something out.
  • #205
    Quote from Azidonis

    As for the Action element... you've got to be kidding me. The action in D3 simply doesn't compare to the type of action available in PoE. It really doesn't compare. Unless/until you have played a character at level 70+, and experienced all forms of content in groups and such, then you probably won't understand how dynamic and insanely fun the combat of PoE is.


    No, I don't have to be kidding you.

    If I said "wait until pLvl 40 and then D3 has really good action" you'd shit up a storm about how it should have good action from the start. The same applies to PoE. Why do I have to wait until the very end of the game for it to stop being slow and cumbersome? Why do I have to group up for good action?

    If the qualifications for "action" in PoE are limited to level 70+ and grouped then I'm not sure how you see that as a good thing because it's clearly a massive failure in design.

    Again, I talked about a game needing to attract new blood to sustain itself for a long period of time. If the game isn't full of action from the beginning then how does that help? PoE already has massive barriers to entry due to the insanely high learning curve (passive tree and currency alone) and amount of research it takes to build a viable character. It doesn't need more, and the fact that you'd advocate for that is bizzare and inexplicable. Telling newbies that they have to have multiple reference tabs open in the background so they can properly play the game is NOT GOOD.

    I want PoE to succeed. It bothers me that people like you think it's perfect because that blindness to reality is going to hurt the game in the long term. They have tons of great ideas, but some of them are just very poorly implemented.
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  • #206
    Azidonis, I think something in your post went wrong. You're quoting shaggy, not me. :-)

    And... "Second, PoE > D3" is a subjective opinion, first reviews coming in suggest that it might not get a higher rating. For example, Germany's #1 game review magazine gave it a lower rating than D3 (84 vs 89). They only rated character development and itemization higher (both 10/10). Waiting for IGN, GameInformer, and other more reliable magazines though.
  • #207
    Quote from shaggy
    Why do I have to wait until the very end of the game for it to stop being slow and cumbersome? Why do I have to group up for good action?


    Because thats when the Fun begins ?
    You've mapped out your Char, skilled for a special purpose...and it all comes together at 65-70 around.
    You get better Gear in the Endgame, better Links on your Gear, better % on your Skills etc

    You group for Aura stacking, more Loots, better Loots etc.

    And please dont tell me now that Level 10 in Diablo3 is super awsome...it isnt :)
    Its the same principle...the game becomes fun when you get access to the full arsenal of Skills.

    Quote from shaggy
    Why do I have to wait until the very end of the game for it to stop being slow and cumbersome? Why do I have to group up for good action?


    It might be slow and cumbersome on the first few playthrues...
    But later on when you find good Uniques, leveling new Chars becomes a Blessing.

    I found a Geofri's Baptism...a low level 2H mace with +200% Physical dmg, and almost 200 max Damage.
    You know what happen when i put that on a fresh low Level Twink? :D
  • #208
    Where is TL2 in all this discussion?!?!?!

    Lol Just because no one has mentioned it thus far besides me briefly. I mean to me honestly as an aspiring game designer I LOVE the cartoonier, stylized painting-esque design D3 went for and Tl2 went for. It brings a breathe of much needed fresh air to the genre and games in general. All these triple-A title go for "AWESHUMS SUPAR REALISTIC GRAPHICS" End they end up bland and boring ala CoD and PoE. I absolutely despise their graphics. They look washed out dull and boring nothing special and nothing new. D3 and TL2 make your eyes move around at the wonderful scenery and still manage to keep it "dark and satisfying" albeit their tone is much less evil and nefarious I believe their art direction was completely right. Tl2 I think offers a perfect balance between the other two. It has permanent skill decisions any fan-boy of D2 would love and personally i think it's good too, They have randomized maps and dungeons side quests galore a nice story similar to Diablo to play through. It all fits nicely almost as nicely as PoE or Diablo 3.

    They're all phenomenal games in their own rights. I believe PoE got something right with skill gems and D3 got the runes, Tl2 has a nice in between for those who want a little of both games. Its amazing though how quickly people start bashing each other for their likes and dislikes.
    Not even Death will save you from Diablo Bunny's Cuteness!


  • #209
    Very much agree, Enty.

    Quote from Enty

    They're all phenomenal games in their own rights. I believe PoE got something right with skill gems and D3 got the runes, Tl2 has a nice in between for those who want a little of both games. Its amazing though how quickly people start bashing each other for their likes and dislikes.


    Even though I was disappointed by TL2 (loved TL1!), it's a nice and much-needed addition to the genre. Just like you I'm sick of all games who take the same approach: high-end graphics and game design just geared towards esports all the way. And about the different opinions... it's really crazy how the PoE-lovers fill this board with hate for D3 and attack everyone who has a different opinion or dares to utter a bad word about PoE.
  • #210
    Quote from trocadero_fuerte

    "Dead Spacer No. 1: I guess the real problem is that I'm a gamer. And gamers are inherently conservative. We don't want to admit that, but I think it's true. Loving a video game can be such an intimate experience, you know? People who don't game have a hard time understanding that, I think. A great game feels like it's yours, which is why gamers fear change. Change by its nature endangers connection and intimacy, and we don't like that one bit. And here's the thing: We have this brand-new art form that's often crass, bizarre, and stupid in ways both great and troubling, and which is, for now, largely and indisputably subject to the commercial anxieties of a few large, risk-averse corporations. When a game that sells 15 million copies gets an annual sequel, we call out "Commercialism!" — as though this even makes sense when you're talking about a $90 million production budget. "But I paid my 60 bucks!" the gamer will say. "What about what I want?" And sure, 60 bucks is a lot of money. But a good game is going to give you … what? Ten hours of entertainment? Twenty? Maybe even 50? At the lowest imaginable ratio, you're still getting six dollars' worth of entertainment per hour. Try being a young, underemployed person who loves theater. Try paying upwards of 50 dollars per entertainment hour and see where that leaves you. Comparatively speaking, video games are a goddamn steal. It's like we don't even consider what drives video-game development. When some game we profess to love alters its formula the tiniest bit — and these are tiny alterations, mind you, because how much "innovation" is even possible in a game about chopping up monsters with industrial tools? — we wage our one-man guerrilla wars against it. Please realize I don't want to be this way. No one wants to be this way. But I know it's possible to love something so much you also wind up hating it. To be a fan of something is to demand of it things you have no right to demand, and when this thing you love feels so personal on the one hand yet is so obviously mass entertainment on the other … You know what? It's so unbelievably confusing sometimes."

    http://www.grantland...ideo-games-meet

    Sums it up nicely (even though he's discussing Deadspace 3).

    Great quote :)
  • #211
    Quote from shaggy

    Quote from Azidonis

    As for the Action element... you've got to be kidding me. The action in D3 simply doesn't compare to the type of action available in PoE. It really doesn't compare. Unless/until you have played a character at level 70+, and experienced all forms of content in groups and such, then you probably won't understand how dynamic and insanely fun the combat of PoE is.


    No, I don't have to be kidding you.

    If I said "wait until pLvl 40 and then D3 has really good action" you'd shit up a storm about how it should have good action from the start. The same applies to PoE. Why do I have to wait until the very end of the game for it to stop being slow and cumbersome? Why do I have to group up for good action?

    If the qualifications for "action" in PoE are limited to level 70+ and grouped then I'm not sure how you see that as a good thing because it's clearly a massive failure in design.

    Again, I talked about a game needing to attract new blood to sustain itself for a long period of time. If the game isn't full of action from the beginning then how does that help? PoE already has massive barriers to entry due to the insanely high learning curve (passive tree and currency alone) and amount of research it takes to build a viable character. It doesn't need more, and the fact that you'd advocate for that is bizzare and inexplicable. Telling newbies that they have to have multiple reference tabs open in the background so they can properly play the game is NOT GOOD.

    I want PoE to succeed. It bothers me that people like you think it's perfect because that blindness to reality is going to hurt the game in the long term. They have tons of great ideas, but some of them are just very poorly implemented.


    Shaggy was pretty much right on with both his game review and this post. Telling people that the game really comes together at level 70 doesn't seem like a great advertisement does it? Level 10 combat in Diablo may not be fantastic, but at least every skill up to inferno works on some level. In PoE, trying to use a basic fireball with a witch who isn't specced into cast speed is just a waste of time. One of the most basic nukes is terrible for the major caster class until you pump a bunch of points into it... that seems silly.
  • #212
    Quote from Xenocow

    Quote from shaggy
    Why do I have to wait until the very end of the game for it to stop being slow and cumbersome? Why do I have to group up for good action?


    Because thats when the Fun begins ?
    You've mapped out your Char, skilled for a special purpose...and it all comes together at 65-70 around.
    You get better Gear in the Endgame, better Links on your Gear, better % on your Skills etc

    You group for Aura stacking, more Loots, better Loots etc.

    And please dont tell me now that Level 10 in Diablo3 is super awsome...it isnt :)
    Its the same principle...the game becomes fun when you get access to the full arsenal of Skills.


    Yes, but there's a HUGE difference between level 10 in D3 and level 65-70 in PoE. You're literally talking the difference between 1 hour of playtime and (for the average player) 2-ish weeks of playtime.

    I agree that the first few levels in D3 are not exactly full of action, I hope I didn't make you believe otherwise. No game is wall-to-wall action, obviously, for the reasons you've stated. I just feel that the "curve" in PoE is way steeper than D3 and I don't particularly find myself enamoured by it. I'm level 52 and I'm wondering when things are going to get fun. They're not fun now. They *should* be more fun than they are. We shouldn't accept "well the game isn't fun til you're 3/4ths through the leveling curve" for any game. That's boooooooring.

    Like I said, I think PoE is a cool game, and I think you're a decent guy for being so into it - I admire your passion even if it comes to us having different opinions on D3. Maybe we should get together in PoE sometime and play the fuck out of it and you can give me some pointers - I'm trying to make a summoner witch build with Arc + Chain for the shock debuff, fully-supported zombies and summon skeletons on a spell totem. I don't have a Chain gem yet (boo) so I'm stuck using Freezing Pulse. Most mobs with elemental/chaos damage completely destroy my minions and it's SUPER frustrating. If I can't group up with my brother I truly feel like it's to the point that I don't want to play.... and that's not the feeling I want to get out of the game. :(
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