Anyone else go against the grain?

  • #21
    Quote from Sartorius

    Quote from CardinalMDM
    TLDR: If some people are so bored with the same old builds, especially with so many people streaming on twitch and YouTube, why is it not more common to see people with funky variations, doing strange and unorthodox builds to show what these classes are really made of? Why are the same default builds seen sooooooooooooooo often?


    Why would anyone use anything else other than cookie cutter builds and little variations off them? Fun? Doing what? Isn't farming what this game's about? Why would you gimp yourself and use something completely inefficient?


    Why NOT?

    If it is enjoyable then it's enjoyable. What makes this game un-fun for a lot of people is the inability to let their hair down and put the uber-efficiency on the shelf for a little bit and just do something because you can. Every now and then I use Pile On on my WD. It's hardly a great idea, but it makes me laugh a lot and, as a result, increases my enjoyment of the game.

    This is a game. We play it for fun. Why would you rail against someone who is doing something oddball that increases their enjoyment of this game? That's exactly what's wrong with this community, truly. EFFICIENCY 24/7 OR DIE. Right?

    Wrong.
    67.1k elite kills :: 1.98m total kills :: p255
    Planet Express <PlanEx>
    (V) (°,,°) (V)
  • #22
    I guess I'd have to say yes. I copy pasted an Archon build, face rolled Act 3 for a bit, and ended up getting so bored that I decided to go back to my original build, the one I had crafted on my own, and have decided to stick to that. Sure, I might lose 5-10% efficiency, but really if I'm playing a game and the goal isn't to have as much fun as possible, I might as well just call it work.

    I understand the need for efficiency, since getting good drops is awesome, but it's not like the players who aren't running the top of the line builds are derping around with some goofy build that takes 6 minutes to kill an elite pack. So I don't even see the reason to worry about it.
  • #23
    Does this count as "going against the grain?"

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EE_xiOt4l_w

    Thread here: http://www.diablofan...est-ever-build/
    Blizzard Entertainment - Diablo III Community MVP
  • #24
    Quote from shaggy

    Quote from Sartorius

    Quote from CardinalMDM
    TLDR: If some people are so bored with the same old builds, especially with so many people streaming on twitch and YouTube, why is it not more common to see people with funky variations, doing strange and unorthodox builds to show what these classes are really made of? Why are the same default builds seen sooooooooooooooo often?


    Why would anyone use anything else other than cookie cutter builds and little variations off them? Fun? Doing what? Isn't farming what this game's about? Why would you gimp yourself and use something completely inefficient?


    Why NOT?

    If it is enjoyable then it's enjoyable. What makes this game un-fun for a lot of people is the inability to let their hair down and put the uber-efficiency on the shelf for a little bit and just do something because you can. Every now and then I use Pile On on my WD. It's hardly a great idea, but it makes me laugh a lot and, as a result, increases my enjoyment of the game.

    This is a game. We play it for fun. Why would you rail against someone who is doing something oddball that increases their enjoyment of this game? That's exactly what's wrong with this community, truly. EFFICIENCY 24/7 OR DIE. Right?

    Wrong.


    I completely agree with you (here we go again :P)

    But think about this: I'm not a big fan of action games - your Gods of War, your Devils May Cry, etc. I'm just not a fan, I think they get boring, fast. What I like about the Diablo games is not the action, it's the mechanics - the items, the skills, the stats sheets, the crafting, the gambling, etc. Mainly the items. I love items and I love gear.
    So, if the gear doesn't appeal to me, and if the drops don't appeal to me (or if they don't drop enough), I'm not going to have fun just 'playing the game', i.e., killing monsters, because I'm not a big fan of the action genre per se

    Just a little food for thought.
  • #25
    Quote from Sartorius

    Quote from CardinalMDM
    TLDR: If some people are so bored with the same old builds, especially with so many people streaming on twitch and YouTube, why is it not more common to see people with funky variations, doing strange and unorthodox builds to show what these classes are really made of? Why are the same default builds seen sooooooooooooooo often?


    Why would anyone use anything else other than cookie cutter builds and little variations off them? Fun? Doing what? Isn't farming what this game's about? Why would you gimp yourself and use something completely inefficient?


    Sartorius...to your original point here...

    The whole purpose is to try something new that works. Like many other people, you think this game is all about efficiency, likely because in Diablo 2, you could be power-leveled in an hour to a few hours, at least to 30 or 40...and once you get good enough gear via farming the right spots, gaining level 99 really wasn't a major challenge if you went down the right avenues. In Diablo 3, there's really no such thing as "power-leveling," thus people focus on "efficiency" because they want to feel as elite as possible as quickly as possible, instead of looking at "paragon level" and gear quality as a sign of how long you've been grinding and/or farming for.

    Thus, efficiency doesn't come into play when discussing builds like my melee DH with -1 skill in favor of swinging an axe...because frankly, builds like what I described in my original post are basically ANTI-efficiency. You say in your later post, "if you're not playing as a Barb, you're doing it wrong," from an efficency standpoint. First, I do have a Barb...his gear is ALL self-found, and while close to 40k DPS may not sound impressive compared to other Barbs that got their gear from the AH (aka, the flea market), I'm still pretty proud of his progress SO FAR (he's only just gotten to Inferno, and can handle MP2 fairly well...he's FAR from done). Second, I say...if your ONLY focus in a game like this, one that could provide you thousands of hours of enjoyment, is simply making it to max level as efficiently as possible...YOU'RE doing it wrong, ;-)

    FARMING efficiency, that I can understand, to an extent. Obviously, in D3, farming a specific legendary is almost impossible, but if you're farming gold (whether gold drops, or items to vend), gems, crafting materials, or just BETTER gear (if you're all-bought, this is practically impossible...then again, if you play with all self-found gear, AND have high level characters, upgrades or possible upgrades drop fairly often), you may actually come to a point where being efficient has led you to find what you want.

    But XP efficiency? Leveling efficiency? This game is not all about that. You say here, "Pretty much everything has been tried and tested by much more "devious" minds than ours." Maybe...but D2 was fun because even if builds and styles were already tried by others, people wanted to try them for themselves.

    Like I said, my axe-swinging DH may not be able to handle MP10, but with some better gear, smarter skill choices...if he can handle even MP5 like that, I'd call that a nice piece of glory.
    Pre AH-shutdown Transcendence/Spirit (Re)gen build, uses only found and crafted gear and gems, can handle MP7.
  • #26
    Quote from Jaetch

    Does this count as "going against the grain?"

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EE_xiOt4l_w

    Thread here: http://www.diablofan...est-ever-build/


    Jaetch...first of all, sorry if I sounded rude in some of my responses to you, I didn't mean to be a jerk about it, and I apologize.

    Anyway...I watched the video you posted, about the "lamest wizard build ever," and to answer your question...it's definitely closer to what I had in mind, certainly gear-wise it is, :-). Like I said in the original post, I took a purely ranged class (a Demon Hunter) and purposely took away his left click skill so that he could swing the axe I'd equipped, pretty much changing the entire intention of the class, or even just changing how most people would play it. That's kinda what I meant.

    You had mentioned when your Wizard hits things with an Echoing Fury, it's an amusing animation because of how it looks when it hits things with a hammer. That is actually what I mean. So, equipping a spellcaster with sword-and-board is on the right track...but I'd try it with the left click skill slot empty, so my Wizard could swing the melee weapon, :-)

    Very cool video, though, really fun to watch. Like the use of Slow Time, I'll have to try out a Wizard like that myself. By the way, I'm now a subscriber to your videos.
    Pre AH-shutdown Transcendence/Spirit (Re)gen build, uses only found and crafted gear and gems, can handle MP7.
  • #27
    Quote from IgnatiusReilly

    I guess I'd have to say yes. I copy pasted an Archon build, face rolled Act 3 for a bit, and ended up getting so bored that I decided to go back to my original build, the one I had crafted on my own, and have decided to stick to that. Sure, I might lose 5-10% efficiency, but really if I'm playing a game and the goal isn't to have as much fun as possible, I might as well just call it work.

    I understand the need for efficiency, since getting good drops is awesome, but it's not like the players who aren't running the top of the line builds are derping around with some goofy build that takes 6 minutes to kill an elite pack. So I don't even see the reason to worry about it.


    My point exactly, Ignatius.

    This game has a lot more styles of play than people give it credit for. People think builds aren't "viable" if they aren't facerolling Inferno MP10, but really, what we should all be asking is...what kinda stats are really required to just survive and kill reasonably on MP10? Sure, obviously, stacking massive amounts of crit chance and crit damage will do enough harm to enemies that you'll kill fast enough to survive...but if I don't need nearly as much, I'll get what I need and still have room to make a build I LIKE, as opposed to just doing what everyone else is doing.

    And really, if I can go against the grain and do something unorthodox AND survive MP10, I'm damn sure going to. Especially in this community, where there's such a consensus of "everyone's doing the same thing, why don't you." People are feeling massively upset that their skills don't set them apart, but part of the reason I posted this thread is to basically say...why aren't people going against the grain and doing their own thing? So far, the best reasoning is "efficiency," and I can't argue that unorthodox builds aren't the MOST efficient.....

    But let's look at it the other way....are the most "efficient" builds the most fun to play? Or do they feel humdrum, boring, and cookie cutter? If they feel boring, then maybe that's a good reason to change one's style of play. :-) I've been wanting to make an ALL Spirit spell build for my Witch Doctor for a while now, and I finally figured out how to make mine work this morning, and it's a blast! I'm working on getting her to Inferno asap, so the real fun can start, but so far, it's going well. Might need a bit of rune tuning, battle strategy, but all in all, I'm liking it and it feels "mine."
    Pre AH-shutdown Transcendence/Spirit (Re)gen build, uses only found and crafted gear and gems, can handle MP7.
  • #28
    @CardinalMDM: I refer you to my post on this page. I like RPG's, not action games. So the 'action' part of this game (the actual killing of the monsters) is no fun (to me) if there isn't a suitable reward (nice items dropping). That's why a lot of unorthodox builds are unappealing: they're TOO inefficient in terms of what I'm looking to get out of the game (item drops).
  • #29
    Quote from maka

    @CardinalMDM: I refer you to my post on this page. I like RPG's, not action games. So the 'action' part of this game (the actual killing of the monsters) is no fun (to me) if there isn't a suitable reward (nice items dropping). That's why a lot of unorthodox builds are unappealing: they're TOO inefficient in terms of what I'm looking to get out of the game (item drops).


    If you don't find the reward suitable, that's kind of an overarcing problem that may cause you to dislike this game with time. If the problem is simply "efficiency," then people can use their most "efficient" builds to farm the right kinds of gear to make unorthodox builds work as optimally as they can. We all get tons of stash space. As long as it's cleaned out regularly of any junk, and/or organized properly, you can have multiple gear sets saved for all your characters. So, an "efficiency" set for quality farming, and then a fun alternate set that's just for messing around.

    I understand the efficiency problem, but not every build needs to be efficient. I mean, characters in this game are very gear dependent, which is bad in terms of innate skill and stat building, but it also ensures that gameplay experience can change based on what a player equips. All my characters will have a "best gear possible" set, certainly...but I'd love to give each one an alternate set so if I get bored with how efficient I am, I can switch things up.
    Pre AH-shutdown Transcendence/Spirit (Re)gen build, uses only found and crafted gear and gems, can handle MP7.
  • #30
    I don't think you're quite getting it (or you are, but you just called it "an overarching problem").
    Without the rewards, D3's gameplay is basically God of War. I hate God of War.
    What I liked about D2 wasn't the combat; it was everything else. When talking about the virtues of D3, most people mention the fluidity of combat, the physics, the graphics, etc. These are all things that aren't very important (to me) in RPGs.
    That's why a lot of people are hung up on 'efficiency'. It's because it's the only thing that's left. Without that, all you have is the same old hack and slash action game. Like God of War. I hate God of War.
  • #31
    Quote from maka

    I don't think you're quite getting it (or you are, but you just called it "an overarching problem").
    Without the rewards, D3's gameplay is basically God of War. I hate God of War.
    What I liked about D2 wasn't the combat; it was everything else. When talking about the virtues of D3, most people mention the fluidity of combat, the physics, the graphics, etc. These are all things that aren't very important (to me) in RPGs.
    That's why a lot of people are hung up on 'efficiency'. It's because it's the only thing that's left. Without that, all you have is the same old hack and slash action game. Like God of War. I hate God of War.


    I am getting it, Maka. You like getting lots of gear, because you see Diablo as an RPG. I get that, believe me I do. What I'm saying is, if all you want is gear, then sure...go enjoy efficiency. Be as efficient as possible, farm as much gear as you can. Hell, invest in the tools and programs for multiboxing, that's a legal way to get as much gear as humanly possible.

    What I'm saying is, there's far more to this game than just efficiency. I find the challenge of rummaging through every piece of gear I pick up and fishing out the best stuff, or the most useful stuff, the most fun part. I love the combat and physics, like others do, but because this game provides such a flowing string of stuff to pick up, that's the part I like.

    You hate God of War, I respect that. You think without "efficiency", D3 turns into God of War, that's where I think you're wrong. D3, even not being as deep as D2, will still be deeper than God of War. It will still offer more to find and more to do than God of War.

    Basically, what I'm getting at is..."efficiency" just gets you to the end faster. Efficiency just means you're blasting through every possible pickup, drop and piece of treasure as fast as you can. This thread was intended for people who aren't looking for efficiency, It was intended for people who want additional challenge beyond just "gearing up the right way," and want to expand their gameplay experience to something quirky.

    If that idea or way of thinking isn't for you, I respect that. But while I do respect it, this thread likely isn't for you either, ;-)
    Pre AH-shutdown Transcendence/Spirit (Re)gen build, uses only found and crafted gear and gems, can handle MP7.
  • #32
    Excellent post there at the start, and I completely agree.

    I understand that people enjoy farming for efficiency with every minute that they play, but while I sometimes enjoy farming for something to do while the TV is on, I also like to play around with builds and make the characters fun to play. My main is a Barb, and it wasn't until the late Plvl20s that I finally relented and started using the cookie cutter WW build to boost the farm speed. In some respects, I'll agree that boosting your Plvl quickly to around 30-40 is worth the time. Once you are there, you can switch out and enjoy playing with builds, and still have a decent base mf+gf bonus that didn't take too much time.

    In my opinion, farming and grinding is the game, but so is fun. I don't find it fun to spend several hours farming circuitous routes with the same spec just because it's optimal. I do now and again, but I'd be pretty bored of the game if that's all I did. I often pick skills I enjoy and find fun to play with, and try to work a build around them. It's more satisfying.

    Back before Inferno was heavily nerfed and there was no MP, I spent a lot of time with gf gear running round Act III Hell. I spent most of the time using this build: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/barbarian#WbXYkg!ZYX!caYZbb. It wasn't all that efficient, but I enjoyed the grind more. I just enjoyed playing the game for a few hours, and oh look, another couple of hundred thousand gold to waste on the AH :)

    My personal favourite was struggling with my wizard, and having trouble finishing Hell. She hit 60 in Act II and then stayed there for ages. I eventually picked up some half decent items and some extra money with my Barb and thought 'screw it, I'm going to go melee because I love Spectral Blades. I'd never heard of a CM build then, but I had half the basics there: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/wizard#WZYXfS!WgZ!YYaaZc It was a struggle and she had a few repair bills, but I enjoyed it more (I often switched out the right mouse button from Ray of Frost to other skills depending how I felt). She's now pretty well geared and on Act III Inferno, farming MP1 as a shameful cookie cutter Archon, to build up some quick Plvls ready for more playing about with builds. I'm determined to stick with Spectral Blade melee style though as I find it most fun.

    So far, the only class I've had little luck finding a fun build for, or even a cookie cutter that I enjoy, is the Witch Doctor. No matter what I've tried, I just can't seem to enjoy it :( I shall prevail though! It'll probably end up being the weirdest combination of useless skills anyone would think of, but if I enjoy it, who cares?

    I don't care if I don't reach Plvl 100 on one char in the next 6 months, at least I know I'll have fun doing it and not be swearing/yawning at the grind.
    "It takes a man with real heart...to make beauty out of the stuff that makes us weep." - Clive Barker
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