Bosses drop chance

  • #21
    Quote from pikke

    Blizz could force you to start far off from a boss after you kill it the first time.
    Like two or 3 missions earlier, that would force players to run at least a third of an Act.
    Es. if you want to run The Butcher you need to start from Leoric Manor otherwise no act boss or no drop increase.
    Add that to minibosses like Skeleton King (you should be forced to start from, say, finding the crown in the cemetery) and players will need to run most of act 1.


    Yah, no. So if you are just trying to progress through the game, and end up a quest before SK, and logged out for any reason.....you would have to run a 1/3rd of the act again?

    How about if I just like the end of the game, I cant play it cuz you want to add this silly mechanic so bosses feel worthwhile? This is ahorrible idea. You can accomplish the exact same thing many different ways without changing savepoints. The whole point of game design is comeing up with ideas that solve problems without creating others. If the whole goal is to "force" players to play an act longer before getting worthwhile rewards from a boss, just add a buff that stacks when you kill an elite that adds MF to boss kills.........Oh wait, they have that.....

    Once you have your 5-stack, boss rewards just need to be better. to be worth killing them.

    If you made it as efficient as just continuing to kill elites......who gives a crap if people just farm bosses???????
    This is what never made sense to me from Blizzard. I can understand logging in for a boss ala Baal is something they dont want to FORCE........but if you get 5 NV, kill a boss, and restart........for equal reward as just running a whole act........how is that bad???

    It gives people different ways to accomplish the same thing, that is the whole problem with the game, they "force" you into farming act 3. And in my opinion.....it's done out of laziness and taking the easy way out. The answer is so obvious it's silly, adjust drop rates/mob density in different acts/bosses/etc so they have equal efficiency.It is a cop-out to say "we don't want the most efficient farming to be killing 1 boss over and over, so instead of balancing it, we will just make it completely inefficient because it's too hard to make things balanced"

    Thats obvious by the fact they still havent even attempted to balance act 3 against the rest of the game.

    You can argue that its not that easy, because the coding is too complicated or complex to easily adjust those things.....guess what? A good game programmer would have thought of this ahead of time, and allowed the code to be more easily adjusted for obvious game systems that will need to be adjusted over time:
    - Loot drop rates/quantities
    - Stat allocations on gear
    - Spell and rune numbers
    - Mob density
    - Elite/Champ density

    These are all things the developers/programmers should have planned for before launch. The fact that after 8 months they can't adjust mob density in A1/2/4 is a failure on their part.
  • #22
    Quote from wwepatriot

    Quote from Zakumene

    Quote from wwepatriot

    Quote from Bagstone

    Quote from Bogok

    If you compare to diablo 2, what i liked was i could open the game, go kill a boss, and boom 100% legendary. I don't think the chance should be that high, but atleast make it higher than packs??


    What I didn't like about D2 was you open the game, kill a boss, rinse & repeat. 99% of D2's content was never visited by any player. I'm extremely happy they changed that in D3.

    Boss drop rates are fine, if they were any better, people would go back to the old D2 pattern of neglecting 90% of game content. Even though people are complaining as hell, right now the "most efficient farming run" includes about 15-20% of the game, in D2 it was 1% (Baal, nothing else).



    With this big gap in player gear, it might have to happen if they want PVP to mean anything.

    I cant imagine a player who is stuck at MP2 level going against someone who can roast things in MP8.

    From what I have analyzed so far in this game, unless you spending a good bit of money, you are pretty much required to farm for about 700+ hours total before you even got a chance at anything higher than MP5 or 6.

    Its ludicrous.

    I think the only legit way to fix this loot system is run it like World of Warcrafts system, least the system WOW had in place about 3-4 years ago before Argent Dawn BS came, No game out there should EVER have such a gap in gear on a player like Diablo 3 has, no game dont except Everquest, thats old washed up with no one in it anymore, most in part for that reason to.


    Why do people have to be on equal footing in pvp? Why do you think people who hop on the game for 30 minutes a week deserve the same rewards as those who do 8 hours a night?


    They dont have to be.

    But they should stand a chance to some degree, the issue with this game is is Skill does not not dictate power, this a very basic fundamental rule in gaming that is flawed in this game.

    As for Boss drops.......... Shouldnt killing bosses mean something outside of quest?

    I rest my case.

    You dont go into World of Warcraft and kill Ragnaros and see all blues drop do you? You dont go farming trash mobs for godly drops in WOW do you?

    No, you dont do this in any game but fucking D3, thats an issue.


    Couple flaws in your argument, 1, Diablo and ARPGs arent really about skill. It's more about farming gear, fidning efficient farm routes, customizing and experimenting with builds and knowing the numbers behind your character which converts to it's power in-game.

    The game uses a very simple point-and-click combat system, and a small set of spells allowed on your bar. Having better gear is going to mean you win most times, because unless your playing a complete non-gamer, skill won't make a difference. I am not saying I agree it's the best design for a game......but it is completely in-line with what an ARPG is.

    When you buy an RTS, the skill in those games is managing your resources, managing many units at once, having complete control and speed of your hotkeys. At no point are the skills from a shooter used to say an RTS requirs no skill, it is just a different skill set.

    ARPGs arent meant to be MMO-style PVP.....or shooter style......or as strategic as RTSs. Comparing the skill in any of these is pointless. ARPGs require some precision of your gameplay, knowing how your build works against other builds, hitting spells at the right time, which require skill. But will never require the same skill-level as a sub-rogue in WOW. Nor should they, this is NOT wow, and most fans of ARPGs don't want that style of combat. Otherwise they would just go play an MMOs PVP.
  • #23
    Well you got a point Litheum, but i still think the drop chance on bosses is too low. I mean no one includes them in their run, atleast not many, and i think that's a shame. I do agree that forcing people to run 1/3 of an act to get a drop from a boss is stupid, but there's other ways to solve it. Like a simple:
    Every time you kill a boss without getting a legendary the chance of getting a legendary on a boss is increased by 5% (I'm thinking only end of act bosses) and it would ofc reset when you got a legendary. there might be better solutions ofc, but i think that would be an improvement. Yes some would run bosses, but what's the problem? You'll still need 5 stacks first, so i think it would be awesome.
    Just my opinion :)
  • #24
    Quote from Litheum

    Quote from Bagstone

    Quote from Bogok

    If you compare to diablo 2, what i liked was i could open the game, go kill a boss, and boom 100% legendary. I don't think the chance should be that high, but atleast make it higher than packs??


    What I didn't like about D2 was you open the game, kill a boss, rinse & repeat. 99% of D2's content was never visited by any player. I'm extremely happy they changed that in D3.

    Boss drop rates are fine, if they were any better, people would go back to the old D2 pattern of neglecting 90% of game content. Even though people are complaining as hell, right now the "most efficient farming run" includes about 15-20% of the game, in D2 it was 1% (Baal, nothing else).


    I find this post ridiculous.

    If you switch "boss" with "act 3" it would be a perfect description of D3.

    "What I didn't like about D3 was you open the game, kill act 3, rinse & repeat. 99% of D3's content was never visited by any player. I'm extremely happy they changed that in D3 patch XX."

    You don' farm all of act 3, you dont kill bosses in act 3, so it's not 15-20% of the game.......


    Yes, but you OBVIOUSLY use more than 1% of the game. Your argument is steeped in hyperbole and exaggeration. We clearly use more of the game, and the design philosphy should ensure that they open up even more with some balancing (they've said they're looking into that).

    In terms of how much of the game we're actively using, it's a hell of a lot more than we ever used in D2, and they're working to expand that further. I don't see how anyone could complain about that.
    66.0k elite kills :: 1.97m total kills :: p244
    Planet Express <PlanEx>
    (V) (°,,°) (V)
  • #25
    Quote from shaggy

    Quote from Litheum

    Quote from Bagstone

    Quote from Bogok

    If you compare to diablo 2, what i liked was i could open the game, go kill a boss, and boom 100% legendary. I don't think the chance should be that high, but atleast make it higher than packs??


    What I didn't like about D2 was you open the game, kill a boss, rinse & repeat. 99% of D2's content was never visited by any player. I'm extremely happy they changed that in D3.

    Boss drop rates are fine, if they were any better, people would go back to the old D2 pattern of neglecting 90% of game content. Even though people are complaining as hell, right now the "most efficient farming run" includes about 15-20% of the game, in D2 it was 1% (Baal, nothing else).


    I find this post ridiculous.

    If you switch "boss" with "act 3" it would be a perfect description of D3.

    "What I didn't like about D3 was you open the game, kill act 3, rinse & repeat. 99% of D3's content was never visited by any player. I'm extremely happy they changed that in D3 patch XX."

    You don' farm all of act 3, you dont kill bosses in act 3, so it's not 15-20% of the game.......


    Yes, but you OBVIOUSLY use more than 1% of the game. Your argument is steeped in hyperbole and exaggeration. We clearly use more of the game, and the design philosphy should ensure that they open up even more with some balancing (they've said they're looking into that).

    In terms of how much of the game we're actively using, it's a hell of a lot more than we ever used in D2, and they're working to expand that further. I don't see how anyone could complain about that.


    You completely missed my point. I had no argument.

    Just that we both agree making you farm 1 specifc part of the game is bad. D2 and D3 do that. That is all.
    The "99%" is completely irrelevant, and just copy and pasted from the OPs post. I'm fairly certain you could see that, but as usual just wanted to contradict everything I say.

    BTW, in general anyone who uses "hyperbole" in any Blizzard forum loses a lot of respect from me, because that word is nothing more than a catch phrase of Blizz mods.....and now every tough guy trying to sound smart uses it on the forums. Chances are most of them had no idea what it even meant until it was overused and became so popular on the forums.

    Not saying it's true about you though old friend......
  • #26
    Quote from Litheum

    You completely missed my point. I had no argument.

    Just that we both agree making you farm 1 specifc part of the game is bad. D2 and D3 do that. That is all.
    The "99%" is completely irrelevant, and just copy and pasted from the OPs post. I'm fairly certain you could see that, but as usual just wanted to contradict everything I say.


    Yes yes, my point was only that Blizzard is aware of this particular issue and their stated goal is to have us using much more of the game than we did in D2 (ie: not creating games just to punk a boss then leave). They obviously are working towards that and I truly feel that since they acknowledged that mob density is something they're looking into for Acts 1 & 2 that continuing to hammer at that particular point is fruitless.

    If you really think I'm parroting blues, though, man... come on. I'm an intelligent person with a very respectable education. I happen to have a pretty decent vocabulary (I enjoy crossword puzzles, go ahead laugh, I deserve it) and I feel that "hyperbole" is a more succinct way to express what I feel to be *deliberate* exaggeration. Sometimes people exaggerate accidentally, sometimes they don't. Part of good communication is being concise (and that's something I'm always working on) so I just don't see any reason to use a two-word phrase when there is a single word that best expresses that concept. Anyway......

    You and I agree that we want more farming options. We probably agree on the solution too. I'm not angry at you. I just think, for your sake, that taking a deep breath and realizing that there isn't much else any of us can do on the subject until it gets rolled into a patch that hits the PTR. For all intents and purposes it *is* out of our hands for now so there's no point in getting our blood pressure up about it.

    As Master Po said to Caine, "Patience, grasshopper."

    EDIT
    Quote from Litheum

    ARPGs arent meant to be MMO-style PVP.....or shooter style......or as strategic as RTSs. Comparing the skill in any of these is pointless. ARPGs require some precision of your gameplay, knowing how your build works against other builds, hitting spells at the right time, which require skill. But will never require the same skill-level as a sub-rogue in WOW. Nor should they, this is NOT wow, and most fans of ARPGs don't want that style of combat. Otherwise they would just go play an MMOs PVP.


    I think you stated that very well. I don't want D3 to become some eSport and I think that people who are arguing against your general sentiment are basically making points that boil down to "D3 should be an eSport!" Which I obviously disagree with.
    66.0k elite kills :: 1.97m total kills :: p244
    Planet Express <PlanEx>
    (V) (°,,°) (V)
  • #27
    Quote from shaggy

    Quote from Litheum

    You completely missed my point. I had no argument.

    Just that we both agree making you farm 1 specifc part of the game is bad. D2 and D3 do that. That is all.
    The "99%" is completely irrelevant, and just copy and pasted from the OPs post. I'm fairly certain you could see that, but as usual just wanted to contradict everything I say.


    Yes yes, my point was only that Blizzard is aware of this particular issue and their stated goal is to have us using much more of the game than we did in D2 (ie: not creating games just to punk a boss then leave). They obviously are working towards that and I truly feel that since they acknowledged that mob density is something they're looking into for Acts 1 & 2 that continuing to hammer at that particular point is fruitless.

    If you really think I'm parroting blues, though, man... come on. I'm an intelligent person with a very respectable education. I happen to have a pretty decent vocabulary (I enjoy crossword puzzles, go ahead laugh, I deserve it) and I feel that "hyperbole" is a more succinct way to express what I feel to be *deliberate* exaggeration. Sometimes people exaggerate accidentally, sometimes they don't. Part of good communication is being concise (and that's something I'm always working on) so I just don't see any reason to use a two-word phrase when there is a single word that best expresses that concept. Anyway......

    You and I agree that we want more farming options. We probably agree on the solution too. I'm not angry at you. I just think, for your sake, that taking a deep breath and realizing that there isn't much else any of us can do on the subject until it gets rolled into a patch that hits the PTR. For all intents and purposes it *is* out of our hands for now so there's no point in getting our blood pressure up about it.

    As Master Po said to Caine, "Patience, grasshopper."

    EDIT
    Quote from Litheum

    ARPGs arent meant to be MMO-style PVP.....or shooter style......or as strategic as RTSs. Comparing the skill in any of these is pointless. ARPGs require some precision of your gameplay, knowing how your build works against other builds, hitting spells at the right time, which require skill. But will never require the same skill-level as a sub-rogue in WOW. Nor should they, this is NOT wow, and most fans of ARPGs don't want that style of combat. Otherwise they would just go play an MMOs PVP.


    I think you stated that very well. I don't want D3 to become some eSport and I think that people who are arguing against your general sentiment are basically making points that boil down to "D3 should be an eSport!" Which I obviously disagree with.


    But it already is an E-sport.

    Real Money AH and the PVP.

    You already got to spend hundreds of hours on this game to get anywhere.
  • #28
    Quote from wwepatriot


    You dont go into World of Warcraft and kill Ragnaros and see all blues drop do you? You dont go farming trash mobs for godly drops in WOW do you?

    No, you dont do this in any game but fucking D3, thats an issue.


    In case you haven't noticed, Diablo isn't WoW.
  • #29
    Quote from Bagstone

    Quote from Bogok

    If you compare to diablo 2, what i liked was i could open the game, go kill a boss, and boom 100% legendary. I don't think the chance should be that high, but atleast make it higher than packs??


    What I didn't like about D2 was you open the game, kill a boss, rinse & repeat. 99% of D2's content was never visited by any player. I'm extremely happy they changed that in D3.

    Boss drop rates are fine, if they were any better, people would go back to the old D2 pattern of neglecting 90% of game content. Even though people are complaining as hell, right now the "most efficient farming run" includes about 15-20% of the game, in D2 it was 1% (Baal, nothing else).


    I guess three areas of Act III is more than 1% of D2.

    Edit for maths.
  • #30
    Quote from Bagstone

    Quote from Bogok

    If you compare to diablo 2, what i liked was i could open the game, go kill a boss, and boom 100% legendary. I don't think the chance should be that high, but atleast make it higher than packs??


    What I didn't like about D2 was you open the game, kill a boss, rinse & repeat. 99% of D2's content was never visited by any player. I'm extremely happy they changed that in D3.

    Boss drop rates are fine, if they were any better, people would go back to the old D2 pattern of neglecting 90% of game content. Even though people are complaining as hell, right now the "most efficient farming run" includes about 15-20% of the game, in D2 it was 1% (Baal, nothing else).


    How is doing boss runs any different than doing the same areas from Act 3 over and over
  • #31
    Quote from Nikdik


    How is doing boss runs any different than doing the same areas from Act 3 over and over


    In one case you're rushing to the boss, killing it and then hitting reset.

    In another you're playing through a good chunk of a whole act killing a handful of variety of enemies, champions, rares, and then eventually finishing with the act boss.

    It's pretty different as far as the depth of a hack and slash goes.
  • #32
    Quote from Daemaro

    Quote from Nikdik

    How is doing boss runs any different than doing the same areas from Act 3 over and over


    In one case you're rushing to the boss, killing it and then hitting reset.

    In another you're playing through a good chunk of a whole act killing a handful of variety of enemies, champions, rares, and then eventually finishing with the act boss.

    It's pretty different as far as the depth of a hack and slash goes.


    Why are you guys arguing about a completely pointless technicality??

    Either way, making you farm a small section of the game regardless of what % of the game it is........is bad design. Who cares if it's 4.8% or 14.4%........it's still bad design. Even if it was all of act 3 to include all bosses, it's still bad design. Just because it's "better" than another game doesnt make it great game design.

    We all agree, the arguments dead, get over it and start talking about something else.....or move the conversation along. Here, I'l help, now that we agree it's bad design, are their any easy solutions that don't involve changing mob density....since apparently that's too hard to program?
  • #33
    You don't get it. In D2, one single mob (Baal) was the goal of every run. Everything else along the way was useless crap and would decrease your efficiency. The whole endgame was designed around killing this one single mob as often and quickly as possible - for more than 10 years.

    In D3 they changed this, thanks to NV buff and elite packs being more useful than act bosses. In particular, if you just enter the game, kill one mob and quit, you receive kind of a penalty due to the fact that you skipped on NV5 bonuses. The difference between 1% (Baal) and 15% (and my farm route is probably rather 20%-25% of D3's content) is huge, because it shows in which direction the game is headed. Once Blizzard has fixed the mob density issues in act 1 and 2, and the "NV persists through acts" feature works properly, there might be a fair amount of people farming 80% of the game's content on their way to p100. If you still insist that "1% versus 80%" is just a number, I can't help you. After all, I bought this game to play more than 1% of it, and right now I feel that the game offers a better incentive already to explore more of its content every single day than this was ever the case in D2.
  • #34
    Quote from Litheum

    Quote from pikke

    Blizz could force you to start far off from a boss after you kill it the first time.
    Like two or 3 missions earlier, that would force players to run at least a third of an Act.
    Es. if you want to run The Butcher you need to start from Leoric Manor otherwise no act boss or no drop increase.
    Add that to minibosses like Skeleton King (you should be forced to start from, say, finding the crown in the cemetery) and players will need to run most of act 1.


    Yah, no. So if you are just trying to progress through the game, and end up a quest before SK, and logged out for any reason.....you would have to run a 1/3rd of the act again?


    Guess my english failed me there, I'll try to point out better my idea.

    What I meant is:
    if you are just trying to progress through the game you can do it in a normal way.
    Once you killed an act boss the first time (the game already take notice by achievement, it just need to take notice for every single different char you have) you can go on toward the next act.
    But you can also decide to run the boss for a while or just do it if you have a short break from work or you just have a spare idle hour before dating your mate and you want to play some Diablo, right?
    So, if you decide to run the boss you can make a choice between a fast approach: you select a mission which let you use a WP as close as possible to the boss, gain 5 NV and kill it with normal drop ratio; or a slow approach: meaning you select a mission which forces you to use a WP not so close to the boss (say Leoric Manor for the Butcher), play your way to the boss and kill it with a buffed drop ratio;

    Examples:
    1) normal progress through game
    - you reach the last waypoint before The Butcher but you have to quit, next time you log in you can restart from there as usual;

    2) running The Butcher with fast approach
    - you select the mission which allows you to select the nearest waypoint to The Butcher, gain 5 NV and slay it with normal drop chances;

    3) running The Butcher with a slower approach but higher drop chances
    - you must select a mission not so close to The Butcher, play through all the way to the boss and slay it with increased drop chances.

    It's a bit like NV, but more focused on Bosses.

    How efficient this method could be I don't know, it seems to me it improves a bit the role of Bosses in this game, but I may be completely wrong.

    I apologize if my use and comprehension of english is not the best, but it's not my own language.
  • #35
    Quote from RMrulz

    Quote from wwepatriot

    You dont go into World of Warcraft and kill Ragnaros and see all blues drop do you? You dont go farming trash mobs for godly drops in WOW do you?

    No, you dont do this in any game but fucking D3, thats an issue.


    In case you haven't noticed, Diablo isn't WoW.


    No but they do have many things in common.
  • #36
    Quote from Bagstone

    You don't get it. In D2, one single mob (Baal) was the goal of every run. Everything else along the way was useless crap and would decrease your efficiency. The whole endgame was designed around killing this one single mob as often and quickly as possible - for more than 10 years.

    In D3 they changed this, thanks to NV buff and elite packs being more useful than act bosses. In particular, if you just enter the game, kill one mob and quit, you receive kind of a penalty due to the fact that you skipped on NV5 bonuses. The difference between 1% (Baal) and 15% (and my farm route is probably rather 20%-25% of D3's content) is huge, because it shows in which direction the game is headed. Once Blizzard has fixed the mob density issues in act 1 and 2, and the "NV persists through acts" feature works properly, there might be a fair amount of people farming 80% of the game's content on their way to p100. If you still insist that "1% versus 80%" is just a number, I can't help you. After all, I bought this game to play more than 1% of it, and right now I feel that the game offers a better incentive already to explore more of its content every single day than this was ever the case in D2.


    Who cares? D3 is better than D2......no one is really arguing that.
    Thanks for clarifying a point that doesnt matter though. The point stands, forcing any portion of the game is bad design.
    It's really quite obvious you constradict every post of mine, I am really just going to stop replying to you. Kind of feels like your just trolling me.
  • #37
    I would love to drop some upgrades for me in boss fights but I want it in a good fight. Unfortunately boss fights is kinda dull/boring right now. I want more and more affixes for bosses and more complex bosses too. And knowing that this is not going to happen soon is making me sad
  • #38
    Let NV stack higher than 5, but once it goes beyond 5, all it does is increase the chance of legendary drops from bosses. Just for lulz, make it a non-linear increase so that the odds at 10 stacks is much less than half the odds at 20, which is turn is less than half the odds at 30. That would mean that super-efficient gold+rares runs would give fewer legendaries per hour, and super-efficient legendaries runs would yield much less gold and rares because you're spending much more time in 'sparse' parts of the map hunting down elites.

    IMO, Blizzard should push much harder in this direction... I've never liked the fact the most efficient ways to farm gold, rares and legendaries are all exactly the same. It's one of the things that induces the huge price-gap between good items and great ones.
  • #39
    On one hand I like killing bosses and think they should have a slightly higher chance to drop legendary items.

    On the other hand I don't want to go back to Baal runz.
  • #40
    Quote from Litheum

    Who cares? D3 is better than D2......no one is really arguing that.
    Thanks for clarifying a point that doesnt matter though. The point stands, forcing any portion of the game is bad design.
    It's really quite obvious you constradict every post of mine, I am really just going to stop replying to you. Kind of feels like your just trolling me.


    Act 3 is only popular because the hardcore theorycrafting bunch of players noticed the density is slightly bigger in that Act. Lots of players do like to run Acts 1 and 2, with just a few also enjoying Act 4. Blizzard hasn't forced anyone, efficiency is "forcing them". The invisible guide to rule all farming games. Just like the elitist bunch are saying Blizzard "forces them" to do dailies in WoW even though they can absolutely not touch them and still cap valor and get great gear. But that's another topic.

    Once density in the Acts is equalized, which I suspect will be Blizz's priority after 1.0.7 goes live, all Acts will be absolutely equal. Except for 4 which is shorter. Sad. But it was so in D2 as well.

    So what are you angry about and why do you think Blizzard is "forcing" anyone into anything? Is it because of density? Can't you be a bit patient? Or are you gonna use the "it's been an year" argument?
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