New patch, major let down.

  • #65
    This is why i still respect Blizzard - they are the only game creator out there that actively listens to the community and actually makes improvements, albeit not the fastest and not everything at once, but they do.
    "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
    -- Albert Einstein

  • #66
    Quote from TheDemokin

    This is why i still respect Blizzard - they are the only game creator out there that actively listens to the community and actually makes improvements, albeit not the fastest and not everything at once, but they do.


    Well, I strongly disagree.I think Blizzard is quite out-of-tune with what the community wants. They continually show this by some of the remarks they make in their forum posts, and social outlets. The notorious "some people like to get items from killing monsters" Just seemed really strange coming from a company who is supposedly listening to the community.

    Then the recent dueling change, Only beig able to access it from Act 1. This is such an obvious design flaw, the community has voiced loudly that they want to duel from anywhere.....they also said they want to duel while grouped with friends, to give them somethig to do while they wait for friends etc. This has been a request of much of the community since before the game even launched......

    The response? Saying they realize this is a good idea and want to implement it......eventually. The fact they needed us to tell them an act 1 portal is a bad idea to begin with, then to say they may fix it......eventually?

    I'm sorry, but that is a perfect example of why I think Jay and his team have vey different views on the game than I do.....and much of the community. I'm not jut saying it is so, I have given examples here, and in multiple threads on this and the official forum. I understand they have made changes, and they did help o improve the game, but each time (other than paragon levels) it was so poorly designed, and so far off of what the community asked for, it seems like they are almost making changes to be orignal, intentionally avoiding using any ideas the community suggests. Stubborn, or not willing to take ideas from other people/games, or maybe they just don't agree with the community.......but something doesnt feel right, when each time they make a change it is so far removed from anything the community is suggesting, and it does not address core issues stated all over the forums.
  • #67
    Quote from Litheum

    Quote from TheDemokin

    This is why i still respect Blizzard - they are the only game creator out there that actively listens to the community and actually makes improvements, albeit not the fastest and not everything at once, but they do.


    Well, I strongly disagree...


    I dont know any company that listens to their fans as much as blizzard and uses their fans ideas to make the game better. So I would like to know do you know any company that does that better than blizzard?
  • #68
    I dont know any company that listens to their fans as much as blizzard and uses their fans ideas to make the game better. So I would like to know do you know any company that does that better than blizzard?


    Oh, there are many companies that communicate often and well with their fanbase. Unknown Worlds comes to my mind now with their game Natural Selection 2. They're quite symbiotic with their community, some parts of the game were literally made by fans.

    Now, who is doing better? Not possible to answer. Blizzard CMs have a hard job with tens of millions of gamers, but despite that I still feel they could do much better. Many times I feel they're disconnected, even when they're answering specific questions. That should not happen. They should know that basic stuff they often miss about the games they represent. So I think Blizzard CM is overrated, and especially with Diablo 3, they make mistakes too often.

  • #69
    Quote from KalikooJack

    Quote from Litheum

    Quote from TheDemokin

    This is why i still respect Blizzard - they are the only game creator out there that actively listens to the community and actually makes improvements, albeit not the fastest and not everything at once, but they do.


    Well, I strongly disagree...


    I dont know any company that listens to their fans as much as blizzard and uses their fans ideas to make the game better. So I would like to know do you know any company that does that better than blizzard?


    If you're strictly talking about giant companies, you might be correct. But if you're talking about all game developers, then you are very much mistaken.
  • #70
    Quote from maka

    If you're strictly talking about giant companies, you might be correct. But if you're talking about all game developers, then you are very much mistaken.


    This. One of the biggest promises for a nice launch for smaller companies is listening to their fans. The semi-downside to this is that development tends to prolong a lot, but at the end of the day the loyal playerbase guarantees you some sales and the less people the less different opinions about features, which helps developers tremendously.

    Natural Selection 2 was given as example. It sold 144k copies but that wouldn't have been possible without closely communicating with their fanbase. For a company of so few people those numbers are not bad at all.

    For an enormous company with around 5000 employees I doubt you'll see many like Blizzard, who write blogs for all their games, years after they've came out, and also have so many community managers discussing said games on a daily basis. Sometimes even weekends! Not to mention the shelf life of these games due to iterative development and community involvement.

    Ha. Bagstone.

  • #71
    I think you could also make a case that the more popular your product, the worse the signal-to-noise gets on your customer feedback channels.

    Then there's the very important distinction between listening to your customers and doing what they say (which in turn is concept rendered completely devoid of meaning when you're dealing with such a diverse group of people).

    On top of that, you have the even trickier problem of distinguishing between what people say they want and what they actually want. When 100 people say they want monsters to drop more gold, but it turns out that 40 of them suck and are going broke from repair bills, 40 of them think it'll make gear more affordable because they have no idea how economics works and the remaining 20 just like having a 12-figure bank balance, the 'right' thing to do might be to leave gold-drops alone, add easier difficulty levels and nudge drop-rates upward... and when that happens, you'll get 100 people saying "Blizzard doesn't listen to me".
  • #72
    Quote from overneathe

    Quote from maka

    If you're strictly talking about giant companies, you might be correct. But if you're talking about all game developers, then you are very much mistaken.


    This. One of the biggest promises for a nice launch for smaller companies is listening to their fans. The semi-downside to this is that development tends to prolong a lot, but at the end of the day the loyal playerbase guarantees you some sales and the less people the less different opinions about features, which helps developers tremendously.

    Natural Selection 2 was given as example. It sold 144k copies but that wouldn't have been possible without closely communicating with their fanbase. For a company of so few people those numbers are not bad at all.

    For an enormous company with around 5000 employees I doubt you'll see many like Blizzard, who write blogs for all their games, years after they've came out, and also have so many community managers discussing said games on a daily basis. Sometimes even weekends! Not to mention the shelf life of these games due to iterative development and community involvement.


    Really? this stuff impresses you guys?
    They pay 2-3 ppl to log in once a week and make a one page blog or post and do PR stuff, and you guys are impressed..? lol?

    I guess these kinds of fans will be attracted to games like this. They don't understand that the game sold 10 million copies at $60 not including RMAH, That's $600 million dollars the game made before RMAH. It's one of the most anticipated games of the decade. You actually think that a billion dollar company hiring a few PR people to keep in touch with the game is special? It's not some charity move, they want your money and they want you to buy stuff on the RMAH. They're doing 1/10th of what they could be doing lol.
  • #73
    Quote from Crashhh1

    They don't understand that the game sold 10 million copies at $60 not including RMAH, That's $600 million dollars the game made before RMAH.


    Uh... no. Agreed with your point in regards to Bliz's general hugeness and the laughable nature of D3 relative to their resources, BUT, a big chunk of those "sales" were giveaways for WoW year subs, while the ones that weren't didn't make a straight 60 bucks in any case. Also, national TV campaigns aren't free - espn isn't known to give away half-minute slots.

    The real point is that WoW has actually revenued more than D3 since release, and done it with much, much better margins. D3 is an R&D experiment/loss leader. It's the rat in the lab, not the dog in the yard (WoW) or cat in the living room (SC).
  • #74
    On top of that, you have the even trickier problem of distinguishing between what people say they want and what they actually want.


    There are many times, what people say they want is not actually what they need.
  • #75
    More than 5 buffs displayed. Please!
  • #76
    Quote from Tsukishima

    Satisfied with the changes. Blizzard continues to impress me with their constant improving of d3. The launch was terrible and full of incompetence but the recovery operation since has exceeded my expectations. I doubt any other game would have redesigned their endgame paradigm after launch like d3 did for inferno.


    In order to fix and "end-game paradigm" you have to actually have an end-game.
    I don't consider paragon levels, Inferno, or Ubers to be end-game content.

    If you do, and you are happy with it, then I completely agree.
  • #77
    Quote from Crashhh1

    Quote from overneathe

    Quote from maka

    If you're strictly talking about giant companies, you might be correct. But if you're talking about all game developers, then you are very much mistaken.


    This. One of the biggest promises for a nice launch for smaller companies is listening to their fans. The semi-downside to this is that development tends to prolong a lot, but at the end of the day the loyal playerbase guarantees you some sales and the less people the less different opinions about features, which helps developers tremendously.

    Natural Selection 2 was given as example. It sold 144k copies but that wouldn't have been possible without closely communicating with their fanbase. For a company of so few people those numbers are not bad at all.

    For an enormous company with around 5000 employees I doubt you'll see many like Blizzard, who write blogs for all their games, years after they've came out, and also have so many community managers discussing said games on a daily basis. Sometimes even weekends! Not to mention the shelf life of these games due to iterative development and community involvement.


    Really? this stuff impresses you guys?
    They pay 2-3 ppl to log in once a week and make a one page blog or post and do PR stuff, and you guys are impressed..? lol?


    Ridiculous hyperbole doesn't really do anything but make you look fanatacal and overly-critical.

    They clearly have more than 2-3 people and they clearly log in more than once per week. Looking at the blue tracker there are 14 topics with a blue reply (some topics may have multiple blue replies) in the past 24 hours made by no less than 5 different blues. In the past week there are 44 topics that have blue attention from 11 different blues (well, 10 plus the account they use to post the blogs). 7 of these topics received attention on the weekend.

    If you want to discuss things at least do it intelligently, not like some kind of monkey whose only reaction is to shit in his hand and throw it at the zoo patrons.
    p400 :: 85.1k EK :: 2.38m TK
    Planet Express <PlanEx>
    (V) (°,,°) (V)
  • #78
    Great post, Catalept. Particularly, this:

    I think you could also make a case that the more popular your product, the worse the signal-to-noise gets on your customer feedback channels.


    So true. Plus, the more people play your games, the more varying wants for that game, which leads to a lot more dissatisfied people insisting that Blizz doesn't care because their personal desires were ignored.
  • #79
    Quote from m4st0d0n


    Oh, there are many companies that communicate often and well with their fanbase. Unknown Worlds comes to my mind now with their game Natural Selection 2. They're quite symbiotic with their community, some parts of the game were literally made by fans.

    Now, who is doing better? Not possible to answer. Blizzard CMs have a hard job with tens of millions of gamers, but despite that I still feel they could do much better. Many times I feel they're disconnected, even when they're answering specific questions. That should not happen. They should know that basic stuff they often miss about the games they represent. So I think Blizzard CM is overrated, and especially with Diablo 3, they make mistakes too often.

    Quote from maka

    If you're strictly talking about giant companies, you might be correct. But if you're talking about all game developers, then you are very much mistaken.


    I´m very casual gamer and do not know how much exactly companies interact with fans overall. I can only speak from my experience and the few games I have played over the years doesnt have had (much) free content patches and the only communication between fans and the game developers I´ve seen is couple of interviews by some game-news-sites. Sure they have tried to sell some extra content, but those have had relatively very high price.

    That said it is good to hear there are some companies that also do care about fans opinions. :) I think many companies finds that waste of money, since majority of people who buy games dont even visit fansites (if they even exist)/official site.

    I totally agree that blizzard have made mistakes and the game really should have been better from the launch. I also agree that they could hire more people as CM:s and go through our fans feedback more carefully. But, I totally respect Blizzard because atleast they have admitted some of the flaws themselves and it seems they are really trying hard to make this game to be what fans expect - a quality blizzard game.
  • #80
    Quote from Litheum

    Quote from Tsukishima

    Satisfied with the changes. Blizzard continues to impress me with their constant improving of d3. The launch was terrible and full of incompetence but the recovery operation since has exceeded my expectations. I doubt any other game would have redesigned their endgame paradigm after launch like d3 did for inferno.


    In order to fix and "end-game paradigm" you have to actually have an end-game.
    I don't consider paragon levels, Inferno, or Ubers to be end-game content.

    If you do, and you are happy with it, then I completely agree.


    If I were to follow that logic, D2 had absolutely no endgame outside of ladder and hardcore (which, mind you, not everyone played). Offline toons didn't even get the ladder option and many online people never bothered with it.

    I guess we should probably berate Dave Brevik too because his vision of Diablo had no endgame either - leveling to 99 and doing Ubers doesn't count. We should also burn all copies of D1 as well. It was a terrible game because it didn't even have ladders! It had absolutely no endgame at all.

    The whole Diablo series is a pile of shit based on your "endgame" criteria.
    p400 :: 85.1k EK :: 2.38m TK
    Planet Express <PlanEx>
    (V) (°,,°) (V)
  • #81
    I love how people commit fallacies all the time.

    In this case, Shaggy, you are justifying that Diablo 3 is ok because D2 and D1 had no endgame. That, is a logical fallacy.

    It's like saying: "oh, that guy killed 20 guys, but Hittler killed millions, so it's ok".
  • #82
    Quote from Indimix

    I love how people commit fallacies all the time.

    In this case, Shaggy, you are justifying that Diablo 3 is ok because D2 and D1 had no endgame. That, is a logical fallacy.


    He has a point. We're talking about expectations that were transferred from one title to the next. The "point" of Diablo has always been farming, gear, trades and PvP. That is the endgame. There need not be some constantly fresh MMO material to wage through.
  • #83
    Quote from shaggy

    Quote from Litheum

    Quote from Tsukishima

    Satisfied with the changes. Blizzard continues to impress me with their constant improving of d3. The launch was terrible and full of incompetence but the recovery operation since has exceeded my expectations. I doubt any other game would have redesigned their endgame paradigm after launch like d3 did for inferno.


    In order to fix and "end-game paradigm" you have to actually have an end-game.
    I don't consider paragon levels, Inferno, or Ubers to be end-game content.

    If you do, and you are happy with it, then I completely agree.


    If I were to follow that logic, D2 had absolutely no endgame outside of ladder and hardcore (which, mind you, not everyone played). Offline toons didn't even get the ladder option and many online people never bothered with it.

    I guess we should probably berate Dave Brevik too because his vision of Diablo had no endgame either - leveling to 99 and doing Ubers doesn't count. We should also burn all copies of D1 as well. It was a terrible game because it didn't even have ladders! It had absolutely no endgame at all.

    The whole Diablo series is a pile of shit based on your "endgame" criteria.


    I never mentioned D2, or D1, or said those games were perfect.

    The basis of my argument is about D3, nothing else. My opinion is running the exact same route endlessly without dying and with no challenge is not what I consider end-game content to consist of. When you do raise the challenge, it offers no reward, it is actually punishing for most players, because the time:reward ratio gets worse, not better.

    I don't use D2, a very old game with very outdated mechanics/design as a metric for anything.
  • #84
    Quote from ruksak

    Quote from Indimix

    I love how people commit fallacies all the time.

    In this case, Shaggy, you are justifying that Diablo 3 is ok because D2 and D1 had no endgame. That, is a logical fallacy.


    He has a point. We're talking about expectations that were transferred from one title to the next. The "point" of Diablo has always been farming, gear, trades and PvP. That is the endgame. There need not be some constantly fresh MMO material to wage through.


    No one asked for constantly fresh, and the lovers of D3 are the ones bringing up D2, not us. I am talking specifically about D3, and am not using D2 as a measuring stick.

    Alls I want to see is more things to do, more variation when I log in. The game is about items, and farming......correct. I just want different ways to do that. Right now, there are very little options for farming and getting gear......farming the exact same route endlessly. This doesnt look like it will change this patch, once you have your recipes, which wont take long.

    So, you can say D2 was a great game, so D3 doesnt have to improve on its design.......I really dont agree, disagree, or care.

    I am making my opinions about D3, and my own feelings of boredom, and why the game is boring, and why I dont feel the "end-game" is much of an end-game.

    I have no desire to run WOW style raids or events, I just want more challenge, with greater rewards for the increased challenge, and several different options to Farm, Itemize, Trade, and ......Play.
  • To post a comment, please or register a new account.
Posts Quoted:
Reply
Clear All Quotes