Top 10 Fixes for Diablo 3 - State of Diablo 13 Ep 9

  • #41
    No, the reality is that they are inter-related. Even in D2, you had to constantly compare your items with d2jsp fg for example because otherwise you could lose wealth very quickly in similar ways. That's just the way it is. Everything has some economic value.
  • #42
    Weird, I don't remember that I had to compare my items to d2jsp all the time, maybe my inner economic man took care of it while I was sleeping.

    I guess I might also lose potential wealth when walking down the street, as my shoes are in theory losing value by being worn down. Oh, the horror.

    Why it should matter while I'm playing a game, I have no idea.

    In the end, nothing in Diablo 3 has any monetary value unless you decide to use RMAH (or shady alternatives). Until that point, any gold or otherwise I might have in the game, only has value within the game mechanics.

    When designing said game mechanics (such as GAH), RMAH (or D2jsp) ought to be just about irrelevant, since it is not part of the game mechanics - and as such Blizzard has no reason to think that the 15% GAH fee is anything other than an effective in-game gold sink with no monetary value whatsoever.
  • #43
    I give up. You're basically saying my argument is flawed because you personally choose not to give value to certain things in the game, while I am simply using the facts of reality.

    Perhaps if I just didn't speak during the shows, they would half as long and all of the points that you disagree with would not be put into the shows, then you guys would certainly have a lot less to complain about.
  • #44
    I'm not exactly complaining about the show - I have never listened to it - hell, I didn't knew you were in that show :P
    From the "show notes list", there seemed to be plenty of things I both agreed and disagreed on. Hooray.

    Merely pointing out that it's (imo) weird (and a bit sad that people do this) to translate gold costs in the game to real currencies.
    I'm having a hard time grasping how this could happen to something that was supposedly a game.

    Are you also annoyed that Blizzard steal real money from your character when enemies hit you and you lose durability?
  • #45
    I think you guys might have to agree to disagree on this one lol :) Good debate.
  • #46
    Quote from egervari

    No, the reality is that they are inter-related. Even in D2, you had to constantly compare your items with d2jsp fg for example because otherwise you could lose wealth very quickly in similar ways. That's just the way it is. Everything has some economic value.

    Losing your wealth?
    Man, the only value items have are the benefits they give my character when equipped. And that doesn't go away, even if you don't play for 6 months and then come back. You'll still have the same items, they have the same stats, you can farm the exact same content with them (unless Blizz tweaks the difficulty with patches, of course).
    All else is just going too far.

    EDIT: good point on the durability. Dying is costing me thousands!!
  • #47
    I think the argument spun out of control and veered off track, the discussion should be about wether the GAH tax is good for the game or not. It somehow twisted into real-life verse games.....

    So, back on topic, regardless of your feelings on the 15% tax......Can we at least agree their are better ways to add gold sinks to the game? If the only reason for the 15% tax is to have a gold sink, I would think a company as good as Blizzard can come up with something better than a tax on the AH. (Namely a better salvaging and crafting system)

    That being said, is their maybe another reason for the tax? What are the effects it has on the market? at low, mid, and high level gear?

    As mentioned, it discourages flipping. Again, there might be a better way to achieve this. Shorter auctions would help a lot. I know a lot of the reason I throw things on the AH for dirt cheap buyouts is because anything under a million for me isnt worth having on auction for 2-days, so I sell it dirt cheap. I know I'm not helping the market by doing so.....but it's better than having 50 sub-1million gold items sitting in my bags. On that same note, the 10 auction limit doesnt help either. I understand it prevents people from having 100s of auctions (mainly gold sellers) but it also hurts the common player. Either way, true item sinks, and a better auction system would help a lot.
  • #48
    Quote from maka

    Quote from egervari

    No, the reality is that they are inter-related. Even in D2, you had to constantly compare your items with d2jsp fg for example because otherwise you could lose wealth very quickly in similar ways. That's just the way it is. Everything has some economic value.

    Losing your wealth?
    Man, the only value items have are the benefits they give my character when equipped. And that doesn't go away, even if you don't play for 6 months and then come back. You'll still have the same items, they have the same stats, you can farm the exact same content with them (unless Blizz tweaks the difficulty with patches, of course).
    All else is just going too far.

    EDIT: good point on the durability. Dying is costing me thousands!!

    You're changing the concept of value here to obfuscate the point.

    When I use the word value, I am referring to economic value, not personal value. The point I was making many, many posts ago were all referring to economic value, not personal value. The topic was in-game gold. A person can own a picture of a long lost loved-one, but unless that person was famous in some way, it likely has no economical valuable at all. This is not the value I'm talking about, and that should be obvious I think but is going over everyone's head it seems.

    I tire of these conversations though. It's not like anything I post matters anyhow, so I don't see the point.
  • #49
    Quote from egervari


    You're changing the concept of value here to obfuscate the point.

    When I use the word value, I am referring to economic value, not personal value. The point I was making many, many posts ago were all referring to economic value, not personal value. The topic was in-game gold. A person can own a picture of a long lost loved-one, but unless that person was famous in some way, it likely has no economical valuable at all. This is not the value I'm talking about, and that should be obvious I think but is going over everyone's head it seems.

    I tire of these conversations though. It's not like anything I post matters anyhow, so I don't see the point.

    That's how forums work when you have to debate things with many other people instead of mainly agreeing with one more. :P

    And is also the reason almost no streamers visit or write in forums. Sad.
  • #50
    Quote from overneathe

    Quote from egervari

    You're changing the concept of value here to obfuscate the point.

    When I use the word value, I am referring to economic value, not personal value. The point I was making many, many posts ago were all referring to economic value, not personal value. The topic was in-game gold. A person can own a picture of a long lost loved-one, but unless that person was famous in some way, it likely has no economical valuable at all. This is not the value I'm talking about, and that should be obvious I think but is going over everyone's head it seems.

    I tire of these conversations though. It's not like anything I post matters anyhow, so I don't see the point.

    That's how forums work when you have to debate things with many other people instead of mainly agreeing with one more. :P

    And is also the reason almost no streamers visit or write in forums. Sad.

    This is a very good point. Alas, I am here for fruitful debate :) I cut my teeth on forums, ready to roll :)

    I think you all raise some very good points. It is also interesting that so many different views exist to the same topic - personally I love that.

    It's easy to get frustrated when you are passionate about your stance, which is all good :)

    I can see the AH tax making sense to some, I just feel it is a lazy way of implementing a gold sink. I would still love to see other systems in place to make that better. Now, that being said, I would rather keep the AH tax in place of nothing, as it is better than nothing, but not really creative.

    I think it is fair to equate real life currency with gold in Diablo 3, as Blizzard does this directly on the RMAH, and therefore, items in game have a relative value to users, buyers, and sellers.

    Bring on more thoughts :)

    Love it, appreciate all the input. Great stuff.

    Cheers 0/

    RTG Sibcoe
    ------------------
    www.youtube.com/redteamgaming
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    www.facebook.com/Sibcoe
  • #51
    Quote from overneathe

    Quote from egervari

    You're changing the concept of value here to obfuscate the point.

    When I use the word value, I am referring to economic value, not personal value. The point I was making many, many posts ago were all referring to economic value, not personal value. The topic was in-game gold. A person can own a picture of a long lost loved-one, but unless that person was famous in some way, it likely has no economical valuable at all. This is not the value I'm talking about, and that should be obvious I think but is going over everyone's head it seems.

    I tire of these conversations though. It's not like anything I post matters anyhow, so I don't see the point.

    That's how forums work when you have to debate things with many other people instead of mainly agreeing with one more. :P

    And is also the reason almost no streamers visit or write in forums. Sad.

    It's kind of hard to have a debate when people are changing terms/definitions to prove their case, or are trying ignore the facts the reality to make their case correct when it it's actually not correct. It has nothing to do with agreeing with one person in a youtube video.

    And besides, I don't think people have to worry about that anymore either.
  • #52
    What do you guys think of the upcoming dueling patch? Do you like it? Do you think it will come with more than just dueling. I have a feeling it might involve new crafting recipes. Any thoughts?

    Cheers 0/

    RTG Sibcoe
  • #53
    Quote from egervari

    It's kind of hard to have a debate when people are changing terms/definitions to prove their case, or are trying ignore the facts the reality to make their case correct when it it's actually not correct. It has nothing to do with agreeing with one person in a youtube video.

    And besides, I don't think people have to worry about that anymore either.

    Now, now, I wasn't trying to offend anyone. Was simply pointing out why the video crowd doesn't generally like writing in forums. People will pick apart their every word, often without much thought given. Sorry if you thought I was trying to make you look bad or anything, wasn't my intention at all.
  • #54
    Quote from overneathe

    Now, now, I wasn't trying to offend anyone.

    Yes you were.

    Quote from overneathe
    Was simply pointing out why the video crowd doesn't generally like writing in forums.

    Gee, I wonder why.

    Quote from overneathe
    People will pick apart their every word

    As will I.

    Quote from overneathe
    , often without much thought given.

    Reason in short supply these days. A very rare commodity indeed.
  • #55
    As you wish. :)
    Everyone's doing it anyway.
  • #56
    Is this podcast bad? No...

    Do I feel you are doing something wrong? Yes.

    First... No headers, no notes, no list with time stamps. If you have a really really good point, about something I can't tell you exactly where it is, and it's not the listeners jobs to tag it for you... Even if most of your points were the best thing in that could happen to this game since sliced bread....

    No one will want to listen to it *edit* No one who works for Blizzard*, because you are constantly insulting the devs like any of the things you state are axiomatic or obvious. I haven't even gone past the "honorable" mentions and I could play Devils advocate on some of your points as to reasons why you would do things...

    For example: Multiplayer difficulty/reward: They have tuned it several times, the reason they don't go crazy is that in a group with coordination somethings become easier, it was plenty enough to just say it could be better and stop there.

    Or RNG in map layouts, old Diablo 2 arguably had more, but it makes maps feel disjointed at times, people map hacked a lot of it, and you can't make as many good look set pieces. Even then, they still put a decent amount of RNG mostly in Act 1 and 2. You wanted more, and you wanted it to be more concentrated with loot and exp, gotcha, didn't need to keep going at it like it was some industry rookies that made the game.


    You'll obviously get an audience if you keep at it with a podcast like this, since there are tons of haters, but if you can't keep criticism constructive, it's basically useless.
  • #57
    Quote from egervari

    I deleted our list after the show.

    From memory, we had 6 honorable mentions:

    - increase base movement speed to what 24% is now.
    - ability to level up abilities/skills (yeah right)
    - give a reason to group with players (more loot, more mf, more mob density, etc.)
    - add more randomness (but take out stupid randomness)
    - increase mob density in act 1/2. Give us reason to go to act 4
    - fix the broken wizard class

    The Top 10 list

    10) give us a pvp system where we define the rules, rewards. Stop wasting 7+ months trying to design the perfect pvp system. let us just pvp and we'll build a system that comes out of it organically. Make use of ptr for pvp.

    9) improve drop rates OR stop creating garbage items for garbage sake (i.e. tighten up properties, etc.)

    8) cut the length of the journey to paragon 100 by 1/2 or 2/3. Or change how magic find works. And some other things we said.

    7) add genuine gold sinks to the game (enchantments, socketing, buffs, etc.). Remove 15% tax bull****.

    6) add more game modes - ladders, classic mode, etc.

    5) improve itemization - have 15-30 legendaries per item slot that are designed around builds, uses for white items, magic items, more socketables like 20 different gems and random jewels, create healthy ecosystem of gems and depower emeralds.

    4) add a crafting system that allows players to create items that don't drop and also incentivizes the destruction of items

    3) add bind on equip

    2) gives us something to do other than farming

    1) blizzard needs to listen, interact and be honest with the community

    Also, to our defense, I had a version of this top list on the official forums several days ago before we did the show - probably before it appeared on these forums as well.

    As for improving things that don't work - I thought that was what the PTR was for...

    I really agree and favour the honourable mentions allot more than the top 10 list. Well not the movement speed i would be much more in favour of removing the cap on movement speed than increasing base speed.

    As for the rest i think these three would be in my top 10 in that order.

    1. - ability to level up abilities/skills (yeah right)
    2.- give a reason to group with players (more loot, more mf, more mob density, etc.)
    3.- add more randomness (but take out stupid randomness)

    on point 2 i think its really important to say that the lack of desire to play co-op is more than just a product of the lack of incentives.

    A. as soon as you have more than one person in a game it gets tough to tell who's killing what because the screen becomes cluttered with effects. So everything looks real ugly and you cant show off your power very well.

    B. Every class in Diablo 3 can do everything so you dont gain any real advantage in terms of killing power or speed by playing with multiple people. It just does not feel like the classes in diablo 3 were designed to play together. that is when you put them in a team there roles don't seem to be particularly well defined.

    C. You get auto matched to the person you are playing with so there no way of knowing if you will end up in a game with someone who wants to do the same kind of thing as you do.(or a total NOOB) (thus they need to add a way for players to choose who they play with, keep the auto-match but allow players to match themselves to the kind of game they want to play.

    So yeah those are the other three reasons why i think multiplayer is crap right now
  • #58
    Quote from Litheum

    So, back on topic, regardless of your feelings on the 15% tax......Can we at least agree their are better ways to add gold sinks to the game? If the only reason for the 15% tax is to have a gold sink, I would think a company as good as Blizzard can come up with something better than a tax on the AH. (Namely a better salvaging and crafting system)
    Not necessarily better gold sinks than AH (I bet its the most effective you can get), but additional ones that is more related to the actual gameplay, that would be nice.
    Gold sinks on crafting and enchanting gear would be a good thing - we just need them to add useful crafting and gear enchanting then :D
    And yeah, better item sinks combined with this would be nice as well. One that also makes it interesting to destroy high end items.

    Quote from Litheum

    That being said, is their maybe another reason for the tax? What are the effects it has on the market? at low, mid, and high level gear?
    It reduces the flipping of items as you mention, which in itself reduces load on AH. Shorter auction wouldnt help much toward reducing the load. Of course load on AH might not be much of an issue anymore, otherwise Blizzard wouldn't have allowed us to cancel auctions.
    The 10 item limit also both reduces load, and theoretically reduces the amount of crap people might put on AH. Which might or might not be a good thing.
  • #59
    Quote from Sagathiest

    C. You get auto matched to the person you are playing with so there no way of knowing if you will end up in a game with someone who wants to do the same kind of thing as you do.(or a total NOOB) (thus they need to add a way for players to choose who they play with, keep the auto-match but allow players to match themselves to the kind of game they want to play.
    Yeah, that would be a good idea.

    As far as having defined roles, it wouldn't feel much like an A-RPG imo if we had tanks, healers etc. Everyone will always be some sort of DPS with minor differences. Still plenty of options to have one character play the tanky one, protecting the others with CC or just his face, or having a Monk that focus a bit on healing etc, so the choices surely are there. Of course the "difficulty" of MP0 doesnt really lend itself to using such roles.

    Beside there are plenty of skills that benefit a group rather than just yourself (a shame they aren't spread well between the classes though).

    Not sure what people want more for multiplayer.
    Beside a non-crappy way to team up with randoms of course, as you mention. And Monster Power in random games.

    The only other issue I see is the movement speed differences, like playing a WW barb together with some character that isnt specced for constantly moving fast - not particularly fun for either players.
    The solution for that seems mostly to be class balance though, like reducing some of the crazier movement skills and maybe giving more run speed without picking skills for it.
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