yesterday, moldran and other two top elites euro players were doing a competition - 12 hrs marathon finding legendary. Whoever finds the most legendaries within 12hrs wins and claims all the legendaries the other find. Diablo 3 hits 10k viewers on twitch which was surprisingly good for a 6 month old game.

If you were watching the streams for just a bit, moldran was farming on mp5 while the other two farm on mp10. Closing toward the hours, the monk invis won the competition with 45 legendaries found. Moldran came in behind with just one short - 44 legendaries. The monk was farming mp10 and going through the runs a lot slower than moldran did, yet he had found the most legendaries. The 3rd player, avoidlol, a wizard, only found 34 legendaries on mp10 within 12hrs.

Therefore, it is a myth that farming higher mp gives you more legendaries, but it is also wrong to say farming for legendaries at lower mp is better because you're going through more packs. If you can go through mp10 at a reasonable pace, then by all mean go for it cuz at least you see alot more rares and golds in the process comparing to lower mp.

This is such an ignorant post. (please don't take that the wrong way)

Magic find in this game has been explored exhaustively and proven conclusively that if you are killing the same monsters in the same quantity in the same amount of time, the person with the higher MF wins that competition every time over a long enough time period.

The key there is all of the variables that are held constant. If you have 10% less magic find on MP1 than you do on MP6 and you go through twice as many monsters, you will find more legendaries on MP1, that's just math!

The key there is all of the variables that are held constant. If you have 10% less magic find on MP1 than you do on MP6 and you go through twice as many monsters, you will find more legendaries on MP1, that's just math!

you forgot to account that higher mp white mobs also have extra chances to drop an additional item. this is a huge variable. even if you farm on mp1 4x faster than a farmer at mp10, the 100% bonus items add up quite a big margin for each monsters slain for the mp10 farmer. so it's not necessary true going faster = more chance to see legendaries. mp10 farmer get the more drops + 250% mf bonus which makes up the loss in speed.

i found alot of legendaries from white trashes in higher mp.

yesterday, moldran and other two top elites euro players were doing a competition - 12 hrs marathon finding legendary. Whoever finds the most legendaries within 12hrs wins and claims all the legendaries the other find. Diablo 3 hits 10k viewers on twitch which was surprisingly good for a 6 month old game.

If you were watching the streams for just a bit, moldran was farming on mp5 while the other two farm on mp10. Closing toward the hours, the monk invis won the competition with 45 legendaries found. Moldran came in behind with just one short - 44 legendaries. The monk was farming mp10 and going through the runs a lot slower than moldran did, yet he had found the most legendaries. The 3rd player, avoidlol, a wizard, only found 34 legendaries on mp10 within 12hrs.

Therefore, it is a myth that farming higher mp gives you more legendaries, but it is also wrong to say farming for legendaries at lower mp is better because you're going through more packs. If you can go through mp10 at a reasonable pace, then by all mean go for it cuz at least you see alot more rares and golds in the process comparing to lower mp.

yes, 12 hrs straight farming, and all three of them are paragon lvl100 and have top end gears.

Exactly. 'Top end gears' .
In gear similar to those players, farming higher MP might yield about the same amount of loot as low MP, because of the increased clearing speed their gear provides and the huge chance for extra items from trash +mf.
Huge majority of ppl will never ever have that kind of gear or will they clear as fast.

An avarage player will probably find mp0-2 most efficient, but as your gear improves, you start one shotting trash on higher MPs and the general clearning speed can improve so much that there will be close to no difference between say mp0 and 3. Get even better gear and increasing MP even further will become worthwhile, not because the clearing speed will be equal - just good enough, but because the extra items chance becomes large enough, combined with +MF .

In truly BiS gear (that's around 500k dps u/b), i believe mp8 would actually be the most efficient for item farming (no proof behind this, just my opinion based on a few facts - needs investigation)

So 3 players out of 10 million played for 12 hours, and got roughly the same amount of legendaries.....and therefore MP level doesnt effect loot?

I think we might need a little more proof then this, there is a thread going with literally thousands of elites killed and data collected that says MP level.....and MF matter. Efficiency matters etc.

I think maybe you are just trolling? Nobody is really this silly?

The key there is all of the variables that are held constant. If you have 10% less magic find on MP1 than you do on MP6 and you go through twice as many monsters, you will find more legendaries on MP1, that's just math!

you forgot to account that higher mp white mobs also have extra chances to drop an additional item. this is a huge variable. even if you farm on mp1 4x faster than a farmer at mp10, the 100% bonus items add up quite a big margin for each monsters slain for the mp10 farmer. so it's not necessary true going faster = more chance to see legendaries. mp10 farmer get the more drops + 250% mf bonus which makes up the loss in speed.

i found alot of legendaries from white trashes in higher mp.

all that does is increase the chances to find a legendary. The universal formula given enough time is

(chances to get a legendary x MF) / time spent

You control the chances to get a legendary by choosing the run that you do. Your time spent is determined by how fast you kill/move through each run. MF is obviously determined by your gear, paragon level, and MP.

All the bonus item at mp10 does is increase the changes to get a legendary. The key here really is that your chances to find a legendary on any given run only vary slightly. Each increase in MP is a very small increase in bonus item. MF for the most part is fixed as well, again, with a very small increase with each MP. Each MP tho becomes an exponential cost to the time spent farming. Only getting better gear/build will slowly shift your curve to the right. OBVIOUSLY once the time spend on all MPs becomes closer to the same number (move speed) the increases in bonus item and MF become more of a factor.

Your bonus item only adds items to normal mobs and not all mobs. Specifically all of the mobs that appear in large packs (spiders in arreat, worms, flies, etc) do not add bonus items.

MF bonus is also something that probably isn't understood very well. An increase in MF from 50 to 250 from MP2 to MP10 looks like a 200% increase, but it's not. Your character has an inherent 100% chance to have a chance find a Legendary based on the monster's loot table (meaning if the monster's loot table says your chance is 0.003 base, 100% of that is 0.003). You character at paragon 100 has 300% bonus (to 400%) and 75% from stacks (to 475%). So now an increase at mp2 from 475% to 525% is only a 10% increase in your total MF chances. An increase at mp10 from 475% to 725% is only a 52% increase. To make matters even worse, to go from 525% (MP2) to 725% (MP10) is only a 38% increase. I guarantee that 99% of the people playing cannot farm MP10 at 138% of the time spent to farm MP2!!!

Even when you add in the additional 90% chance from bonus item (which is probably high but I have no science to base the math on) you are still only talking about a slight increase because of the difference in the time it takes you to do MP10. If doing mp10 takes you more than 170% of the time it takes to do mp2 you're wasting your time and decreasing your total output.

TLDR: If it takes you 10 mins to do a run at mp2, you have to be able to do the exact same run in mp10 at less than 17 mins to beat out your output at mp2.

The key there is all of the variables that are held constant. If you have 10% less magic find on MP1 than you do on MP6 and you go through twice as many monsters, you will find more legendaries on MP1, that's just math!

you forgot to account that higher mp white mobs also have extra chances to drop an additional item. this is a huge variable. even if you farm on mp1 4x faster than a farmer at mp10, the 100% bonus items add up quite a big margin for each monsters slain for the mp10 farmer. so it's not necessary true going faster = more chance to see legendaries. mp10 farmer get the more drops + 250% mf bonus which makes up the loss in speed.

i found alot of legendaries from white trashes in higher mp.

all that does is increase the chances to find a legendary. The universal formula given enough time is

(chances to get a legendary x MF) / time spent

You control the chances to get a legendary by choosing the run that you do. Your time spent is determined by how fast you kill/move through each run. MF is obviously determined by your gear, paragon level, and MP.

All the bonus item at mp10 does is increase the changes to get a legendary. The key here really is that your chances to find a legendary on any given run only vary slightly. Each increase in MP is a very small increase in bonus item. MF for the most part is fixed as well, again, with a very small increase with each MP. Each MP tho becomes an exponential cost to the time spent farming. Only getting better gear/build will slowly shift your curve to the right. OBVIOUSLY once the time spend on all MPs becomes closer to the same number (move speed) the increases in bonus item and MF become more of a factor.

Your bonus item only adds items to normal mobs and not all mobs. Specifically all of the mobs that appear in large packs (spiders in arreat, worms, flies, etc) do not add bonus items.

MF bonus is also something that probably isn't understood very well. An increase in MF from 50 to 250 from MP2 to MP10 looks like a 200% increase, but it's not. Your character has an inherent 100% chance to have a chance find a Legendary based on the monster's loot table (meaning if the monster's loot table says your chance is 0.003 base, 100% of that is 0.003). You character at paragon 100 has 300% bonus (to 400%) and 75% from stacks (to 475%). So now an increase at mp2 from 475% to 525% is only a 10% increase in your total MF chances. An increase at mp10 from 475% to 725% is only a 52% increase. To make matters even worse, to go from 525% (MP2) to 725% (MP10) is only a 38% increase. I guarantee that 99% of the people playing cannot farm MP10 at 138% of the time spent to farm MP2!!!

Even when you add in the additional 90% chance from bonus item (which is probably high but I have no science to base the math on) you are still only talking about a slight increase because of the difference in the time it takes you to do MP10. If doing mp10 takes you more than 170% of the time it takes to do mp2 you're wasting your time and decreasing your total output.

TLDR: If it takes you 10 mins to do a run at mp2, you have to be able to do the exact same run in mp10 at less than 17 mins to beat out your output at mp2.

I agree with pretty much everything you said, if you ignore the bonus item, which I have been known to do quite often. It's been pointed out in the official forums that the bonus item is actually quite hard to quantify, in part because not all mobs can drop the bonus item. However, the actual benefit from the bonus item is likely higher than just the simple (1+Bonus on MP10)/(1+Bonus on MPx)*MF factor. The reason is the bonus item is ALWAYS a gear drop, it's never a potion, gold pile, etc., according to a blue post. How much of a difference that makes is very much up for debate, because we don't know what fraction of drops are gear normally.

If you assume that about 1/3 of everything dropped from white mobs is gear, then the bonus item contribution is about 3x what you might otherwise think. The summary of the argument is that you can get about 3x as many legendaries per run on MP10 than you do on MP0-1. If you can farm MP10 in about twice the time as MP5, then you might see about the same number of legendaries per hour, as indicated by the results of the competition. RNG still played a role in the eventual winner, but the results indicate that it's not unusual for loot gains per hour to be fairly high at high MP.

With all that said, MP0-1 is probably still better to farm for those of us not at max paragon level because you'll get far more xp per hour, even if the loot per hour is about the same.

This is such an ignorant post. (please don't take that the wrong way)

Magic find in this game has been explored exhaustively and proven conclusively that if you are killing the same monsters in the same quantity in the same amount of time, the person with the higher MF wins that competition every time over a long enough time period.

The key there is all of the variables that are held constant. If you have 10% less magic find on MP1 than you do on MP6 and you go through twice as many monsters, you will find more legendaries on MP1, that's just math!

You're forgetting the extra % chance per higher MP for monsters to drop additional treasure, which equates to a better chance at drops.

^^ I accounted for the bonus item with the 90% chance of an additional drop / creature killed. That's how I got the 170% number despite only a 38% increase in MF at MP10 compared to MP2. I'm fairly certain my numbers are correct there. A 10 min run at MP2 should give you the same loot as a 17 min run in MP10 over long periods of time, even accounting for the bonus item.

I'm sorry but saying that the bonus item is always gear is bogus.Blizzard even responded on forums when MP first came out and told some dude who was complaining ( obviously , dunno what about ) that the extra drop can be a white item, gold, blue, rare etc....So yea bonus item kinda sucks when you take that into consideration + the fact that not all mobs drop them.

I'd like to meet those 3 in person someday, so I can see how long their beards are, how many Dr. Pepper cans are around their desks, and the last time their breath smelled of snatch.

Actually Moldran trains for triathlon every day before playing.

I'm sorry but saying that the bonus item is always gear is bogus.Blizzard even responded on forums when MP first came out and told some dude who was complaining ( obviously , dunno what about ) that the extra drop can be a white item, gold, blue, rare etc....So yea bonus item kinda sucks when you take that into consideration + the fact that not all mobs drop them.

^^ I accounted for the bonus item with the 90% chance of an additional drop / creature killed. That's how I got the 170% number despite only a 38% increase in MF at MP10 compared to MP2. I'm fairly certain my numbers are correct there. A 10 min run at MP2 should give you the same loot as a 17 min run in MP10 over long periods of time, even accounting for the bonus item.

Because the bonus item is always a gear drop, it will be better than 90% chance of extra gear, because mobs don't always drop gear, but any drop can trigger the bonus item. For example, say gear is 50% of the items dropped, and for now we neglect the large mobs that can't drop bonus items, you actualy get 135% more gear drops at MP10 vs MP2.

The basic idea:
per run, let's say you kill 1000 white mobs. Let's say mobs drop an item 30% of the time, 50% of those are gear. Just to make it a bit complete, add 25 elite packs, 5 of which drop 3.5 items and the 20 of which drop the guaranteed rare.
MP2
Elites = 3.5 * 25 = 87.5 items
Elite Gear Drops = 87.5 * 50% + 20 = 63.75
Base item drops = 1000 * 0.3 = 300 items
Base Gear drops = 50% * 300 = 150 gear
Bonus drops = 300*0.08 = 24 bonus gears

Total Gear Drops = 63.75+150+24 = 237.75

MP10
Elite gear drops = 63.75 (same as above)
Base item drops = 300 (same as MP2)
Base Gear drops = 150 (also unchanged)
Bonus drops = 300 * 1 = 300 bonus gears

Total Gear Drops = 63.75+150+300 = 513.75

This means you get 2.16x as many gear drops per run on MP10 as MP2. Multiply that by the MF ratio to get the approximation of extra legendaries.

My only issues with these calcs is the need to assume how often mobs drop gear as opposed to gold or potions/tomes/gems, and that not all mobs drop the extra item. 50% might be a bit high, but the ratio increases if the gear drop % is lower, meaning the lower the base drop chance of gear, the better the bonus item becomes. I think the only mobs that don't drop the extra item are the large mobs though, because they already drop 2 items when killed, or something like that. I'm not completely sure, so don't quote me on that or take it as 100% definitive. I'm just now starting to get into finding out how the bonus item really works, because before it sounded pretty lame.

yesterday, moldran and other two top elites euro players were doing a competition - 12 hrs marathon finding legendary. Whoever finds the most legendaries within 12hrs wins and claims all the legendaries the other find. Diablo 3 hits 10k viewers on twitch which was surprisingly good for a 6 month old game.

If you were watching the streams for just a bit, moldran was farming on mp5 while the other two farm on mp10. Closing toward the hours, the monk invis won the competition with 45 legendaries found. Moldran came in behind with just one short - 44 legendaries. The monk was farming mp10 and going through the runs a lot slower than moldran did, yet he had found the most legendaries. The 3rd player, avoidlol, a wizard, only found 34 legendaries on mp10 within 12hrs.

Therefore, it is a myth that farming higher mp gives you more legendaries, but it is also wrong to say farming for legendaries at lower mp is better because you're going through more packs. If you can go through mp10 at a reasonable pace, then by all mean go for it cuz at least you see alot more rares and golds in the process comparing to lower mp.

In the end, it all depends on RNG.

I disagree. This is just a small sample that depends on the particular RNG at the time, but in general, it doesn't depend on the RNG - there is going to be an objective choice based on your build, gear, run speed per MP level, etc.

this video says it all. so i still standby my conclusion. it depends on your gears for which appropriate monster power you can farm on reasonable speed. it's not always lower mp is better. i think drawing from his data which higher mp you get more legendaries from trash mobs than elites, it may be a good idea just to skip the elites on mp10 once you get your initial 5 stacks.

If you have good gears (DPS + EHP), you should always farm on high monster power for loot if paragon lvl is not your concern. it also depends on what class and build you're playing as well. ww barb with good gears should farm at higher mp because it's easier to maintain wotb than at lower mp does, but other classes like wd or dh should not because of the fact a lot of their skills are tied to killing mobs, especially wd needs to kill mobs quickly for their passive to work.

Private Mod Note

Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack

To post a comment, please login or register a new account.

If you were watching the streams for just a bit, moldran was farming on mp5 while the other two farm on mp10. Closing toward the hours, the monk invis won the competition with 45 legendaries found. Moldran came in behind with just one short - 44 legendaries. The monk was farming mp10 and going through the runs a lot slower than moldran did, yet he had found the most legendaries. The 3rd player, avoidlol, a wizard, only found 34 legendaries on mp10 within 12hrs.

Therefore, it is a myth that farming higher mp gives you more legendaries, but it is also wrong to say farming for legendaries at lower mp is better because you're going through more packs. If you can go through mp10 at a reasonable pace, then by all mean go for it cuz at least you see alot more rares and golds in the process comparing to lower mp.

In the end, it all depends on RNG.

Magic find in this game has been explored exhaustively and proven conclusively that if you are killing the same monsters in the same quantity in the same amount of time, the person with the higher MF wins that competition every time over a long enough time period.

The key there is all of the variables that are held constant. If you have 10% less magic find on MP1 than you do on MP6 and you go through twice as many monsters, you will find more legendaries on MP1, that's just math!

you forgot to account that higher mp white mobs also have extra chances to drop an additional item. this is a huge variable. even if you farm on mp1 4x faster than a farmer at mp10, the 100% bonus items add up quite a big margin for each monsters slain for the mp10 farmer. so it's not necessary true going faster = more chance to see legendaries. mp10 farmer get the more drops + 250% mf bonus which makes up the loss in speed.

i found alot of legendaries from white trashes in higher mp.

I see.

What?

Exactly. 'Top end gears' .

In gear similar to those players, farming higher MP

mightyield about the same amount of loot as low MP, because of the increased clearing speed their gear provides and the huge chance for extra items from trash +mf.Huge majority of ppl will never ever have that kind of gear or will they clear as fast.

An avarage player will probably find mp0-2 most efficient, but as your gear improves, you start one shotting trash on higher MPs and the general clearning speed can improve so much that there will be close to no difference between say mp0 and 3. Get even better gear and increasing MP even further will become worthwhile, not because the clearing speed will be equal - just good enough, but because the extra items chance becomes large enough, combined with +MF .

In

trulyBiS gear (that's around 500k dps u/b), i believe mp8 would actually be the most efficient for item farming (no proof behind this, just my opinion based on a few facts - needs investigation)Barbarian guide

I think we might need a little more proof then this, there is a thread going with literally thousands of elites killed and data collected that says MP level.....and MF matter. Efficiency matters etc.

I think maybe you are just trolling? Nobody is really this silly?

all that does is increase the chances to find a legendary. The universal formula given enough time is

(chances to get a legendary x MF) / time spent

You control the chances to get a legendary by choosing the run that you do. Your time spent is determined by how fast you kill/move through each run. MF is obviously determined by your gear, paragon level, and MP.

All the bonus item at mp10 does is increase the changes to get a legendary. The key here really is that your chances to find a legendary on any given run only vary slightly. Each increase in MP is a very small increase in bonus item. MF for the most part is fixed as well, again, with a very small increase with each MP. Each MP tho becomes an exponential cost to the time spent farming. Only getting better gear/build will slowly shift your curve to the right.

OBVIOUSLY once the time spend on all MPs becomes closer to the same number (move speed) the increases in bonus item and MF become more of a factor.Your bonus item only adds items to normal mobs and not all mobs. Specifically all of the mobs that appear in large packs (spiders in arreat, worms, flies, etc) do not add bonus items.

MF bonus is also something that probably isn't understood very well. An increase in MF from 50 to 250 from MP2 to MP10 looks like a 200% increase, but it's not. Your character has an inherent 100% chance to have a chance find a Legendary based on the monster's loot table (meaning if the monster's loot table says your chance is 0.003 base, 100% of that is 0.003). You character at paragon 100 has 300% bonus (to 400%) and 75% from stacks (to 475%). So now an increase at mp2 from 475% to 525% is only a 10% increase in your total MF chances. An increase at mp10 from 475% to 725% is only a 52% increase. To make matters even worse, to go from 525% (MP2) to 725% (MP10) is only a 38% increase. I guarantee that 99% of the people playing cannot farm MP10 at 138% of the time spent to farm MP2!!!

Even when you add in the additional 90% chance from bonus item (which is probably high but I have no science to base the math on) you are still only talking about a slight increase because of the difference in the time it takes you to do MP10. If doing mp10 takes you more than 170% of the time it takes to do mp2 you're wasting your time and decreasing your total output.

TLDR: If it takes you 10 mins to do a run at mp2, you have to be able to do the exact same run in mp10 at less than 17 mins to beat out your output at mp2.

I agree with pretty much everything you said, if you ignore the bonus item, which I have been known to do quite often. It's been pointed out in the official forums that the bonus item is actually quite hard to quantify, in part because not all mobs can drop the bonus item. However, the actual benefit from the bonus item is likely higher than just the simple (1+Bonus on MP10)/(1+Bonus on MPx)*MF factor. The reason is the bonus item is ALWAYS a gear drop, it's never a potion, gold pile, etc., according to a blue post. How much of a difference that makes is very much up for debate, because we don't know what fraction of drops are gear normally.

If you assume that about 1/3 of everything dropped from white mobs is gear, then the bonus item contribution is about 3x what you might otherwise think. The summary of the argument is that you can get about 3x as many legendaries per run on MP10 than you do on MP0-1. If you can farm MP10 in about twice the time as MP5, then you might see about the same number of legendaries per hour, as indicated by the results of the competition. RNG still played a role in the eventual winner, but the results indicate that it's not unusual for loot gains per hour to be fairly high at high MP.

With all that said, MP0-1 is probably still better to farm for those of us not at max paragon level because you'll get far more xp per hour, even if the loot per hour is about the same.

Crusader DPS and EHP Spreadsheet, meant for Crusaders

My Wizard

You're forgetting the extra % chance per higher MP for monsters to drop additional treasure, which equates to a better chance at drops.

^ YouTube.Com/IceBleuGaming ! It's a thing! Check it oooout!

Actually Moldran trains for triathlon every day before playing.

Alls you need to do to see him is watch 2 seconds of any of his videos.

He has his bike that he does triathlons with in the background.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/6893750712#12

At the bottom it says:

Because the bonus item is always a gear drop, it will be better than 90% chance of extra gear, because mobs don't always drop gear, but any drop can trigger the bonus item. For example, say gear is 50% of the items dropped, and for now we neglect the large mobs that can't drop bonus items, you actualy get 135% more gear drops at MP10 vs MP2.

The basic idea:

per run, let's say you kill 1000 white mobs. Let's say mobs drop an item 30% of the time, 50% of those are gear. Just to make it a bit complete, add 25 elite packs, 5 of which drop 3.5 items and the 20 of which drop the guaranteed rare.

MP2

Elites = 3.5 * 25 = 87.5 items

Elite Gear Drops = 87.5 * 50% + 20 = 63.75

Base item drops = 1000 * 0.3 = 300 items

Base Gear drops = 50% * 300 = 150 gear

Bonus drops = 300*0.08 = 24 bonus gears

Total Gear Drops = 63.75+150+24 = 237.75

MP10

Elite gear drops = 63.75 (same as above)

Base item drops = 300 (same as MP2)

Base Gear drops = 150 (also unchanged)

Bonus drops = 300 * 1 = 300 bonus gears

Total Gear Drops = 63.75+150+300 = 513.75

This means you get 2.16x as many gear drops per run on MP10 as MP2. Multiply that by the MF ratio to get the approximation of extra legendaries.

My only issues with these calcs is the need to assume how often mobs drop gear as opposed to gold or potions/tomes/gems, and that not all mobs drop the extra item. 50% might be a bit high, but the ratio increases if the gear drop % is lower, meaning the lower the base drop chance of gear, the better the bonus item becomes. I think the only mobs that don't drop the extra item are the large mobs though, because they already drop 2 items when killed, or something like that. I'm not completely sure, so don't quote me on that or take it as 100% definitive. I'm just now starting to get into finding out how the bonus item really works, because before it sounded pretty lame.

Crusader DPS and EHP Spreadsheet, meant for Crusaders

My Wizard

I disagree. This is just a small sample that depends on the particular RNG at the time, but in general, it doesn't depend on the RNG - there is going to be an objective choice based on your build, gear, run speed per MP level, etc.

this video says it all. so i still standby my conclusion. it depends on your gears for which appropriate monster power you can farm on reasonable speed. it's not always lower mp is better. i think drawing from his data which higher mp you get more legendaries from trash mobs than elites, it may be a good idea just to skip the elites on mp10 once you get your initial 5 stacks.

If you have good gears (DPS + EHP), you should always farm on high monster power for loot if paragon lvl is not your concern. it also depends on what class and build you're playing as well. ww barb with good gears should farm at higher mp because it's easier to maintain wotb than at lower mp does, but other classes like wd or dh should not because of the fact a lot of their skills are tied to killing mobs, especially wd needs to kill mobs quickly for their passive to work.