1.05 "Sweetspot"

  • #41
    Quote from vastling

    I'm curious if the extra item is really an extra item or an extra pot of gold/potion as well (making it less good)


    It's not completely clear, but the way I read what Blizzard said is if a monster dies and drops something (including gold) and you make the percentage roll for the bonus drop, it drops 1 more of something it can drop than it normally would have. So if it dropped a potion, it might drop a piece of armor, or vice versa. IE, on MP10, if a monster dropped something, it would always drop at least 2 things, assuming Blizzard isn't doing something silly like having entries in their drop table which don't drop anything.
    ...and if you disagree with me, you're probably <insert random ad hominem attack here>.
  • #42
    I am curious about how the extra drop works exactly. It could be mediocre if it's just an ordinary drop every time like from any white mob, but it could be really good if it has an enhanced chance to be magic.
  • #43
    Chests and destructible objects are a joke. The only thing worth talking about is resplendent chests, but those usually require you to actually clear your way to them so in no way do they make higher MP any more efficient than the calculations show. If destructible objects took a big % of your time and dropped a big % of your total loot than you have a point. But right now (and even if/when they make MF affect them) they do neither, so their effect is negligible.
  • #44
    Quote from Ruppgu

    Quote from Loroese

    If you compare the total 6 affix rares for each case, you get (3262.5/2587.5) = 1.26 or 26% more 6 affix rares at the higher MF, which is the same increase as the number of legendaries, i.e., 725/575 = 1.26.


    Collected data says you are wrong here. http://www.diablofan...stical-insight/


    I'm aware of the thread as I was one of the contributers, and I mentioned it in my post. It's at the end of section 6.4, the area with guaranteed rare. The calculated and collected data support my calculations that the % of 6 affix rares in terms of total rares increases noticably with MF. It is that guaranteed rare that changes the relative distribution of 6 affix rares by more than a tiny amount since at higher MF you're replacing 4 affix rares with 5 and 6 affixes. The random drops do not have much of a noticable change.

    If you can find any part in that thread that contradicts my calculations, let me know, but I'm reasonably sure my calculations are supported by the thread.

    I think the only thing wrong was to generalize the results for the whole act when it only applies to elites. The relative % of 6 affix rares is relatively constant from normal mobs and the normal drops from elites. i.e., about 10% of the rares will have 6 affix at 0 MF and it only goes up to like 13% at 1000MF. But unless you know the ratio of rares dropped by elites vs trash mobs, it's hard to compute the actual gain, so it should be under 26%, probably more like 15-20% increase once you try to account for that.
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  • #45
    Quote from Loroese

    Quote from Ruppgu

    Quote from Loroese

    If you compare the total 6 affix rares for each case, you get (3262.5/2587.5) = 1.26 or 26% more 6 affix rares at the higher MF, which is the same increase as the number of legendaries, i.e., 725/575 = 1.26.


    Collected data says you are wrong here. http://www.diablofan...stical-insight/


    I'm aware of the thread as I was one of the contributers, and I mentioned it in my post. It's at the end of section 6.4, the area with guaranteed rare. The calculated and collected data support my calculations that the % of 6 affix rares in terms of total rares increases noticably with MF. It is that guaranteed rare that changes the relative distribution of 6 affix rares by more than a tiny amount since at higher MF you're replacing 4 affix rares with 5 and 6 affixes. The random drops do not have much of a noticable change.

    If you can find any part in that thread that contradicts my calculations, let me know, but I'm reasonably sure my calculations are supported by the thread.

    I think the only thing wrong was to generalize the results for the whole act when it only applies to elites. The relative % of 6 affix rares is relatively constant from normal mobs and the normal drops from elites. i.e., about 10% of the rares will have 6 affix at 0 MF and it only goes up to like 13% at 1000MF. But unless you know the ratio of rares dropped by elites vs trash mobs, it's hard to compute the actual gain, so it should be under 26%, probably more like 15-20% increase once you try to account for that.



    Your posts are so full of numbers that it's hard for me to follow what point you're trying to make, but I think you might be getting confused about the relative chance of a rare to be 6 affix as opposed to 5/4 affix, versus the absolute chance to find a 6 affix rare. Who cares about the relative chance? It's misleading to even bring it up IMO. The 6/5/4 ratio remains comparable only because you're getting much more of all three types of rares.

    As I understand it, supposing that a legendary has a 1% drop chance, with +400% MF it becomes a 5% drop chance, i.e. 5x as many legendaries as before, right? Supposing that a 6 affix rare has a 5% drop chance, that becomes 25%, i.e. 5x as many 6 affix rares as before(not counting the drops that become legendaries). And so on and so forth.

    Honestly though if you want to simplify the argument of MP efficiency I think the easiest thing to look at is Exp. That's a very reliable measurement of progress that's easy for everyone to understand. If that isn't efficient at high MP levels then Blizzard messed up regardless of item drop rates.
  • #46
    I think what loroese is saying is that the observed increase in 6 property drops for the guaranteed rare did not live up to a 10% chance to be a 6 property rare.

    Every rare does not have a 10% chance to be 6 property.

    Next time an elite drops 1 rare and your at 5 stacks go ahead and id it and you will quickly figure out how much trash that guaranteed rare is. Its just one more item. While it can roll 6 prop it has as much of a chance as all those white and blues you passed by.

    Random thought

    Grim harvest will probably receive some love if it does get affected by the extra drop but will still be bad.
  • #47
    Quote from vastling

    I think what loroese is saying is that the observed increase in 6 property drops for the guaranteed rare did not live up to a 10% chance to be a 6 property rare.

    Every rare does not have a 10% chance to be 6 property.

    Next time an elite drops 1 rare and your at 5 stacks go ahead and id it and you will quickly figure out how much trash that guaranteed rare is. Its just one more item. While it can roll 6 prop it has as much of a chance as all those white and blues you passed by.

    Random thought

    Grim harvest will probably receive some love if it does get affected by the extra drop but will still be bad.


    Based on the game guide(http://us.battle.net/d3/en/game/guide/items/equipment#magic-find) this is how I think it works:

    According to the guide, when the game decides that you are getting a magic item, there are 7 possible quality levels. The game rolls on each of them one at a time, starting at Legendary, and the first roll that succeeds is what that item will be. Let's assign an arbitrary drop rate to each of them like so:

    Legendary: .1%
    6 Affix Rare: 1%
    5 Affix Rare: 2%
    4 Affix Rare: 4%
    3 Affix Rare: 8%
    2 Affix Magic: 16%
    1 Affix Magic: Guaranteed

    Now add +300% MF and we get:


    Legendary: .4%
    6 Affix Rare: 4%
    5 Affix Rare: 8%
    4 Affix Rare: 16%
    3 Affix Rare: 32%
    2 Affix Magic: 64%
    1 Affix Magic: Guaranteed

    So as you can see, MF helps a whole lot. The net result is you're getting about 4x as many legendaries and 6 affix rares, and somewhat less than 4x as many of the lesser qualities, because each high quality item you get comes at the expense of a lower quality item.

    The guaranteed rare is a bit different if his numbers are right in that it goes from this:


    Legendary: .1%
    6 Affix Rare: 1%
    5 Affix Rare: 2%
    4 Affix Rare: 4%
    3 Affix Rare: Guaranteed

    to this:


    Legendary: .4%
    6 Affix Rare: 4%
    5 Affix Rare: 8%
    4 Affix Rare: 16%
    3 Affix Rare: Guaranteed

    In that case you can see why the guaranteed rare might seem unappealing even though it receives the same bonuses. It's no worse than normal magic drops, just not as much better as you might expect. I'm not sure if that's really how it works though.
  • #48
    Bonus item details:

    http://www.diablofans.com/blizz-tracker/topic/240129-blue-bonus-item/

    White monsters only, and presumably just another regular drop with the same quality rolls. Doesn't sound like a major game changer, but then it would double your chance to find legendaries off normal mobs which does happen reasonably often.
  • #49
    The additional loot only being on white mobs that successfully dropped an item seems like it will need some testing to confirm it acts as advertised.

    I'm going to wager it could trigger off killing members of an elite pack or minions.

    (Just not the last member of the elite pack that has the guaranteed drops)

    I'm sure someone will figure it out, but ultimately (to bring it back on topic) the sweet spot in 1.05 will be on drops per min.
    This is different then rares per minute - which is helped alot by the guaranteed rare.
  • #50
    The summary of all my number crunching is just that if you want to figure out your relative gain in legendaries or 6 affix drops, you use the same analysis. Namely if you have X MF and you change MP or gear to get Y MF, your relative gain is (100+Y)/(100+X). Going from 375 to 400 MF, such as if you're capped on MF and go from MP0 to MP1 means you see 500/475 = 1.053 times increase in legendaries. You'll see the same relative gain in 6 affix drops from elites. If your main goal of farming is to get legendaries, then that's the evaluation you need to make with your run times to find the best MP level. You can compare experience the same way if you like, or just about any other parameter in a similar manner but in the end your optimal MP won't necessarily be the same as mine or everyone else.

    Factoring in how the extra potential drop affects legendaries and rares is not easy to do since we don't really know the drop rate on regular mobs. It is nice to finally have some clarification that it only drops from white mobs even if it complicates basic efficiency formulas.

    Quote from Zeyk23


    Your posts are so full of numbers that it's hard for me to follow what point you're trying to make, but I think you might be getting confused about the relative chance of a rare to be 6 affix as opposed to 5/4 affix, versus the absolute chance to find a 6 affix rare. Who cares about the relative chance? It's misleading to even bring it up IMO. The 6/5/4 ratio remains comparable only because you're getting much more of all three types of rares.



    Sorry if some of the arguments are hard to follow. I realize some of the numbers I was trying to present are a little difficult to define or easily explain. What I was trying to say in my last couple posts was that you get a higher % of 6 affix rares at higher MF, not just more 6 affix rares total. The 6/5/4 ratio changes with MF because of how the guaranteed rare is a 100% drop whose quality is affected by MF. As I said earlier, at 625% MF about 9.2% of all your rares found from elites will have 6 affixes. At 475% MF the number is around 8.6%. You also get more total rares at the higher MF so that you end up with about 26% more rares with 6 affixes than the lower MF for the same number of elite kills.

    A simple example, if player A farms with 475% MF and gets 1000 rares, 86 of those will have 6 affixes. Player B farms the same number of elites with 625% MF. He finds more than 1000 rares and gets 108 that have 6 affixes.

    The actual number of rares that player B finds is something like 1175, but that isn't very important if we only care about the 6 affix rares. The point is player B finds not only more rares but a higher percentage of the rares found have 6 affixes.

    I hope that makes it a bit easier to follow and I apologize for any confusion.
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  • #51
    Who cares what % of rares have 6 affixes. On AH you sell rares, not % of rares. Finding 2 more rares worth selling is 2 more rares you sell on the AH. Our profit in the end has nothing to do with how many trash vs good items we find, but rather just how many good items we find total. So this whole discussion is pretty silly.

    If the extra item is only from normal monsters (which don't drop much anyway), then it makes monster power suck even more.

    As for keys and parts, keep in mind that the scaling in drop rate is beneficial regardless of your DPS all the way up to MP3, as MP2->3 increases the chance by a factor of 1.5 (20%->30%) while the HP aren't multiplied by as much. Any MP levels higher than 3, though, would require that your DPS is high enough so that you waste enough time running around at MP3 for the HP increase from MP3->4 to be worth it (and same goes for higher MP levels, with the DPS requirements increasing by a lot every level, to the point where even perfectly geared players will still not bother with more than MP6).

    For everything else (xp, mf) you need quite amazing gear (probably well over 200mil in total value, maybe even a lot more) to even think about going above MP0.
  • #52
    After the first couple of days people will be able to upgrade their gear for quite cheap anyway. People will get hellfire rings which are likely boosts to their current rings, or the ilvl 63 affixes on rings will be available for sale on the AH, making existing rings cheaper.

    Then there will be a massive influx of ilvl 61-62 gear with ilvl63 affixes, meaning people can boosting their characters a lot more.
    Not to mention as people paragon level up, their character gains armor, +res all, +damage and +HP naturally, and people will not stay on MP1 for very long at all.
  • #53
    Quote from GalZohar

    Who cares what % of rares have 6 affixes. On AH you sell rares, not % of rares. Finding 2 more rares worth selling is 2 more rares you sell on the AH. Our profit in the end has nothing to do with how many trash vs good items we find, but rather just how many good items we find total. So this whole discussion is pretty silly.


    The reason to talk about such issues is that the more rares you get in general, the more sellable rares you find, on average. Since the 6 affix rares are the most likely ones to be of some worth, there are some who would want to know how their drop rates are influenced by MF, MP, etc. I was interested because the relationship wasn't a clear as legendary drop rates, so I calculated some values and shared the results.
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    Crusader DPS and EHP Spreadsheet, meant for Crusaders
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  • #54
    People will stay on mp0 for very very long, as higher MP values just don't pay off. The only reason to raise the MP is if you farm keys, and even then only to MP3-4, after which the HP increase again surpasses the drop rate increase making it not worth it unless you spend 80-90% of your time running around not fighting anything because all the monsters around you are dead.
  • #55
    I'm not sure what to think about the new patch. To me it just seems like desperate attempts of patching up the non-existant forward motion of this botched game. We'll still be grinding the same items over and over, only with the new patch we might make it a tad more challenging. There will still be no point to it, other than maybe finding an item we could sell for gold. Gold that is pointless.
    The world is very different now. For man holds in his mortal hands the power to abolish all forms of human poverty and all forms of human life.
  • #56
    I think MP will be good for WW barbarians that wants lots of damage. As MP1+ lets you actually gain fury with high damage.
  • #57
    Quote from Huminator

    Quote from RenescoD3

    Well now that we can really see what comes with each MPlvl where do you guys suppose will be the best tier to play the game when farming efficiency is concerned?

    Looking at the chart that they posted for me it seems that the best trade-off will be at exactly monster power level 6, where monster only get 895% extra health and 220% extra dmg.
    And we get 150% bonus to GF and MF and 47% extra item bonus.

    Regarding place to farm i assume that it will still be act 3 roughly the Alkaizer route. But maybe faster runs on act 1 might be actually more efficient (cemetary, festering woods, Jailer and butcher) timewise as monsters will have less HP and although in lesser number the distance to run seems smaller.

    Any thoughts on the matter plz share..


    Where you get that, monsters do 220% extra damage at monster power 6 i do not know. But its not true. If it was true it would mean monsters would pretty much one shot me, which is far from the case. I can farm pretty easy monster power 8. That means monster damage is scaling far from the numbers you pulled out from your arse there.


    220% is what the official chart shows btw...
  • #58
    Quote from GalZohar

    Who cares what % of rares have 6 affixes. On AH you sell rares, not % of rares. Finding 2 more rares worth selling is 2 more rares you sell on the AH. Our profit in the end has nothing to do with how many trash vs good items we find, but rather just how many good items we find total. So this whole discussion is pretty silly.

    If the extra item is only from normal monsters (which don't drop much anyway), then it makes monster power suck even more.

    As for keys and parts, keep in mind that the scaling in drop rate is beneficial regardless of your DPS all the way up to MP3, as MP2->3 increases the chance by a factor of 1.5 (20%->30%) while the HP aren't multiplied by as much. Any MP levels higher than 3, though, would require that your DPS is high enough so that you waste enough time running around at MP3 for the HP increase from MP3->4 to be worth it (and same goes for higher MP levels, with the DPS requirements increasing by a lot every level, to the point where even perfectly geared players will still not bother with more than MP6).

    For everything else (xp, mf) you need quite amazing gear (probably well over 200mil in total value, maybe even a lot more) to even think about going above MP0.


    Well, you mean most people (like 80+ %) now are trying hard to beat Inferno?
    I've spent like 10 mil at max on my Barb (WW) and i can handle all of the content. Even the hardest packs (though i die sometimes). And Blizz said that current difficulty is equal to MP 2-3. What on the Earth are you talking about then?
  • #59
    Quote from RenescoD3

    Quote from Huminator




    220% is what the official chart shows btw...


    Huminators reply was way too rude but he was correct in that it is not 220% extra damage but that monsters do 220% damage on MP6 which means 120% extra damage. So monsters don't do 3.2 times the damage than on MP0 but 2.2 times.
  • #60
    Quote from Levitate

    I'm not sure what to think about the new patch. To me it just seems like desperate attempts of patching up the non-existant forward motion of this botched game. We'll still be grinding the same items over and over, only with the new patch we might make it a tad more challenging. There will still be no point to it, other than maybe finding an item we could sell for gold. Gold that is pointless.


    Is this your first time playing Diablo?
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