1.05 "Sweetspot"

  • #21
    another thing to note:

    most people have multiple items for each slots, one for defensive purposes and one for dps ect ect....
    i think that in general it will be better to go mostly offensive on a lower difficulty just to increase overall efficient farming.

    example:
    while i may have some all resistance rings with good stats and damage mods
    i will most likely not use it if i have a trifecta item with no all resistance. doing MP4 over MP6 for example.

    another thing is, generally Ring Keepers and Bosses are much harder then elites for the given MP level... so u can always swap to the defensive rings or shield or whatever when encountering them. making things real easy.
  • #22

    The loh nerf isn't as big of a deal as the rage issue. When you get enough tornadoes going on a boss it's not going to kill you anyway unless it one shots you and you can switch to life leach at certain gear levels. I'm debating on getting the reduction to cc effect way up there, it seems the only time I die was due to Wotb being down and not able to whirl.


    its better to have WOTB up all time rather then getting cc reductions
    that said i find it very hard in 1.05 just because its so much more difficult to rage dump because WW costs less

    immortals set
    weapon master with mighty
    shout
    +24 movement speed

    is enough to keep it up all the time
    u can even keep it up while using a mace instead of a mighty weapon if u have immortals. ive tested it on single high HP targets.. getting sick of pumping sprint though... just need enough attack speed and crit
  • #23
    I will be doing all the acts for the infernal machine (great incentive), finaly a reason to forget act 3 a bit.

    My goal is MP6, maybe 5 for act 4, with so much HP on mobs i don't really put much weight on the typical farm routes, you spend a lot of time hitting on mobs, the run from one group to the other is quite microscopic in comparison.
  • #24
    I made a post on the official forums and uploaded an excel file with a detailed calculation in regards to how your efficiency is affected by monster power level taking into account all relevant factors.

    http://eu.battle.net...opic/5616902661

    If you're more interested in XP then the numbers will be different, but it shouldn't be hard to modify the excel file to calculate xp/hour rather than items/hour. Same goes for keys/organs (for which I don't have confirmed drop rates yet and how those scale with MP).

    To sum it up, the excel file will show you that you are most likely best off sticking with MP0~4 even at very high gear levels, and even then the loot/hour will not be boosted much compared to what you can get at MP0.
  • #25

    Same goes for keys/organs (for which I don't have confirmed drop rates yet and how those scale with MP).


    The blue post on the front page says 10% per MP level for the keys and organs.
    My EHP and DPS Spreadsheet, mostly useful for wizards.
    My wizard, mostly useful for killing demons and collecting loot.
    Wizard CM DPS Simulator, written in Matlab, release version 1.01
    Comprehensive CMWW Guide, including gear and build suggestions, plus Uber strats
    Arcane Mines Guide, detailed guide for the highest dps wizard build, including vids
  • #26
    Remember that with the changes being made, Blizz has stated that MP3 will be roughly the same difficulty as (I'm assuming act 3/4) live, so if you can farm Act 3/4 on live, then you should be able to bump it to MP3 at the very least, more if you can farm it currently with ease.
    Nerd: When you say it, you best say it with awe,
    'Cause I'm the type of nerd that will bust your jaw.
  • #27

    Remember that with the changes being made, Blizz has stated that MP3 will be roughly the same difficulty as (I'm assuming act 3/4) live, so if you can farm Act 3/4 on live, then you should be able to bump it to MP3 at the very least, more if you can farm it currently with ease.


    Ignoring the changes to incoming damage and defensive buff skill nerfs, 1.04 is roughly equivalent to about 2.5ish MP for act 3/4 as far as difficulty. If you aren't currently using a defensive buff which is getting nerfed, 1.05 will be somewhat easier than that would imply. If you are a WW barb, it will be somewhat harder -- particularly if you currently rely on LoH.
    ...and if you disagree with me, you're probably <insert random ad hominem attack here>.
  • #28

    I made a post on the official forums and uploaded an excel file with a detailed calculation in regards to how your efficiency is affected by monster power level taking into account all relevant factors.

    http://eu.battle.net...opic/5616902661

    If you're more interested in XP then the numbers will be different, but it shouldn't be hard to modify the excel file to calculate xp/hour rather than items/hour. Same goes for keys/organs (for which I don't have confirmed drop rates yet and how those scale with MP).

    To sum it up, the excel file will show you that you are most likely best off sticking with MP0~4 even at very high gear levels, and even then the loot/hour will not be boosted much compared to what you can get at MP0.


    Awesome! I'm glad someone has finally put some math to all this nonsense. I speculated from that start that the farming efficiency would be best at low MP levels. Makes the entire point of the system silly.
  • #29

    Awesome! I'm glad someone has finally put some math to all this nonsense. I speculated from that start that the farming efficiency would be best at low MP levels. Makes the entire point of the system silly.
    The entire point of the system isn't to provide with players with top-notch gear and dps/survivability with the absolute best way to farm items. They already have that in their gear/killing speed.

    It's to provide players with a tool to customize the degree of difficulty of enemies they encounter. The bonus xp/gf/mf is only there so players don't feel like they're being masochist and completely wasting their time on higher MPs.

    We can only be sure about farming efficiency after we try the patch as well (but that doesn't mean I don't agree with you on your speculation that lower MP will be the most efficient).

    On a sidenote, I think the bonus MF/GF is being heavily underrated on these speculations though.

    Specially considering how MF works. You should have a much higher chance of 6-affix items on MP10 than on MP4. Also, white mobs should still die somewhat fast, and that paired with destructibles (which should have MF/GF affect them once again) should give an insane amount of gold/hour in the higher MPs. Remember destructibles and resplendant chests don't have that extra hp/dmg, but would wield much better rewards (assuming they're once again affected by GF/MF).
  • #30

    It's to provide players with a tool to customize the degree of difficulty of enemies they encounter. The bonus xp/gf/mf is only there so players don't feel like they're being masochist and completely wasting their time on higher MPs.

    But with the current "rewards" for higher MP, that's exactly what players playing at higher MP are going to feel like. Masochistic waste of time. It will only be used for the lolz and bragging rights.


    On a sidenote, I think the bonus MF/GF is being heavily underrated on these speculations though.

    Specially considering how MF works. You should have a much higher chance of 6-affix items on MP10 than on MP4. Also, white mobs should still die somewhat fast, and that paired with destructibles (which should have MF/GF affect them once again) should give an insane amount of gold/hour in the higher MPs. Remember destructibles and resplendant chests don't have that extra hp/dmg, but would wield much better rewards (assuming they're once again affected by GF/MF).

    Actually, nothing was underrated. In fact, the benefits of MF/GF are slightly overrated (due to how MF works) but the difference is negligible. The calculation directly correlates to legendary items per hour efficiency, but you lose a bit since rolling a legendary means you just lost a potential 6-affix rare, and when you roll a 6-affix rare you potentially lose a 5-affix rare, and so on. However since the legendary items are worth so much more and are so much more rare than 6 affix rares, and same for 6 affix vs 5 affix rares, the loss is negligible and the calculation is quite accurate. In any case, the MF is definitely not underrated in the calculation! There is no possible way that MF will be worth more than is calculated in this method, provided you input the correct base values.


    If we assume 10% chance per MP level, then at least for the relevant items (apparently keys and demon parts) somewhere between MP4 to MP6 will be most efficient for just about everyone (exact MP level obviously depends on how long you spend running around vs fighting at MP0).

    Updated excel file including efficiency for xp and key farming can be found here:

    http://www.mediafire.com/view/?1axbw9g38bmwi9m

    If you spend 50% of your time running when at MP0, you will be best off farming keys at MP4, thus spending only 18% of your time moving, which is a lot less boring than current play. If you spend 80% of the time running at MP0, then you should be farming MP5, and still spend 38.5% of your time running around. If you spend 90% of your time running around at MP0, you should be farming at MP6, and spend 50% of your time running around instead.

    Of course this doesn't take into account the fact that you can do the uber bosses and key farming at different MP levels. Taking that into account is something I'm still trying to figure out, since after all fighting the uber bosses includes a negligible % of the time running around regardless of what monster power level you set them to, but increasing the time to kill them will do nothing to (directly) affect the time it takes you to farm the keys.
  • #31


    Awesome! I'm glad someone has finally put some math to all this nonsense. I speculated from that start that the farming efficiency would be best at low MP levels. Makes the entire point of the system silly.
    The entire point of the system isn't to provide with players with top-notch gear and dps/survivability with the absolute best way to farm items. They already have that in their gear/killing speed.

    It's to provide players with a tool to customize the degree of difficulty of enemies they encounter. The bonus xp/gf/mf is only there so players don't feel like they're being masochist and completely wasting their time on higher MPs.

    We can only be sure about farming efficiency after we try the patch as well (but that doesn't mean I don't agree with you on your speculation that lower MP will be the most efficient).

    On a sidenote, I think the bonus MF/GF is being heavily underrated on these speculations though.

    Specially considering how MF works. You should have a much higher chance of 6-affix items on MP10 than on MP4. Also, white mobs should still die somewhat fast, and that paired with destructibles (which should have MF/GF affect them once again) should give an insane amount of gold/hour in the higher MPs. Remember destructibles and resplendant chests don't have that extra hp/dmg, but would wield much better rewards (assuming they're once again affected by GF/MF).


    I agree 100%. This game doesn't really need a new system which would further increase the gap between casuals and top players. In fact, I could argue that the gap should be smaller than what it is currently in 1.0.4. And I think the MP system and the changes to item rolls may achieve that with the way they are being implemented.

    I feel it's fine to have the higher levels only to provide an additional challenge. There's always people who want to complete game in the highest difficulty possible just to gain bragging rights.
  • #32

    Looking at the chart that they posted for me it seems that the best trade-off will be at exactly monster power level 6, where monster only get 895% extra health and 220% extra dmg.
    And we get 150% bonus to GF and MF and 47% extra item bonus.


    first off, it's not 220% EXTRA dmg, it's just 220% dmg, so 120% extra dmg.

    the other thing most ppl didn't seem to notice, is this extra item thing. so every monster you kill has a "chance" to drop an additional item, depending on monsterpower. that is very important, if you try to evaluate what monsterpowerlevel will be most "efficient" for you, in terms of item farming. on mp6 for example you have a 47% chance for an extra item, that means every second mob (that drops an item) will drop one more. i assume this will include bosses, rares, champs etc.

    as most of you already stated, the best way will still be to go offensive for pure farming and tweak the monsterlevel, so you don't die / get too slow. i will farm keys on lower mp levels and do ubers on 10 in a 3 man group, to make sure my farming was not only a waste of time.
  • #33

    Well now that we can really see what comes with each MPlvl where do you guys suppose will be the best tier to play the game when farming efficiency is concerned?

    Looking at the chart that they posted for me it seems that the best trade-off will be at exactly monster power level 6, where monster only get 895% extra health and 220% extra dmg.
    And we get 150% bonus to GF and MF and 47% extra item bonus.

    Regarding place to farm i assume that it will still be act 3 roughly the Alkaizer route. But maybe faster runs on act 1 might be actually more efficient (cemetary, festering woods, Jailer and butcher) timewise as monsters will have less HP and although in lesser number the distance to run seems smaller.

    Any thoughts on the matter plz share..


    Where you get that, monsters do 220% extra damage at monster power 6 i do not know. But its not true. If it was true it would mean monsters would pretty much one shot me, which is far from the case. I can farm pretty easy monster power 8. That means monster damage is scaling far from the numbers you pulled out from your arse there.
    Currently played toon:
    http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Rage-2973/hero/28310

    Profit:
    Flipping/Sniping: 6577€
  • #34


    On a sidenote, I think the bonus MF/GF is being heavily underrated on these speculations though.

    Specially considering how MF works. You should have a much higher chance of 6-affix items on MP10 than on MP4. Also, white mobs should still die somewhat fast, and that paired with destructibles (which should have MF/GF affect them once again) should give an insane amount of gold/hour in the higher MPs. Remember destructibles and resplendant chests don't have that extra hp/dmg, but would wield much better rewards (assuming they're once again affected by GF/MF).


    I totally agree with your point about the purpose of the system.

    The MF issue is a bit more complicated when you consider rares and not just legendaries (which is why I tried to only mention legendaries).

    Regarding MF, the increase of 6 affix rares is basically the same as the increase in number of legendaries as you increase MF. Thus, if you have 625% MF you get about 26% more 6 affix rares than someone with 475% MF, i.e., capped MF and MP4 vs MP10. The math is shown below. That actually seems like a reasonably number, and is amplified by the bonus item drop, though at this point we don't know exactly how that works. So in short, you get about 26% more potentially good items at MP10 than MP4, but at the cost of about 7.5x the hp of mobs, plus the extra damage done, though you also get a bit more experience and GF. The best case scenario is if the extra drop occurs for EVERY drop, not just once per mob, which means you essentially get 40% more items in MP4 as I calculated and 100% more in MP10 which translates into about 80% (1.26*(2/1.4)=1.8) more 6 affix rares than MP4. That means if it takes you more than 80% longer to clear MP10 than MP4 you're better off at MP4. The same analysis can be applied to any MP levels at any MF levels.



    MATH WARNING: PROBABILITY THEORY CONTENT FOLLOWS!

    This is my attempt to quantify the different number of 6 affixes expected for the different MF values. I'm assuming a base of 10000 elites killed. Based on the MF theory thread, each elite drops 3.5 items on average, not counting the NV rare. The base probability that each is 6, 5, or 4 affix rare is roughly 1, 3, and 6%, for a rough average of 10% of drops are rares. That % is affected by MF. The guarenteed rare distribution is more like 1, 3, 96%. The 5 and 6 affix guaranteed rare probabiliy is increased by MF while the amount of 4 affix rares you find actually decreases since the number of rares is fixed for the guarenteed rare.

    For 425% MF, we expect to get (2012.5, 6037.5, and 12075) (6, 5, 4) affix rares respectively. The guaranteed rare is something like (575, 1725, 7700) for a total of 10000 guaranteed rares, since each elite drops a guaranteed rare. The total rares is 30125 and the number of 6 affix rares is 2587.5 or 8.59% of the rares found will have 6 affixes.

    At 625% MF the non-guaranteed rares add up to (2537.5, 7612.5, 15225) for (6, 5, 4) affixes. The guaranteed rares look like (725, 2175, 7100) again for a total of 10000 guaranteed rares. Notice there's a fair number fewer 4 affix rares at this MF than the lower MF for the guaranteed rare. This is really where the difference comes from. The total rares are 35375, of which 3262.5 will have 6 affixes, which is 9.2%.

    If you compare the total 6 affix rares for each case, you get (3262.5/2587.5) = 1.26 or 26% more 6 affix rares at the higher MF, which is the same increase as the number of legendaries, i.e., 725/575 = 1.26.
    My EHP and DPS Spreadsheet, mostly useful for wizards.
    My wizard, mostly useful for killing demons and collecting loot.
    Wizard CM DPS Simulator, written in Matlab, release version 1.01
    Comprehensive CMWW Guide, including gear and build suggestions, plus Uber strats
    Arcane Mines Guide, detailed guide for the highest dps wizard build, including vids
  • #35

    Where you get that, monsters do 220% extra damage at monster power 6 i do not know. But its not true. If it was true it would mean monsters would pretty much one shot me, which is far from the case. I can farm pretty easy monster power 8. That means monster damage is scaling far from the numbers you pulled out from your arse there.


    As was said above, it's not 220% extra damage but 220% of the base damage. If we assume that base damage is lvl 63 MP0 mobs, then it's 1.2x the damage as MP0. If we further assume the MP0 mobs do 25% less damage than 1.0.4, then the actual damage increase compared to live is 0.75*2.2 = 1.65 or 65% more damage than live. By comparison MP10 is about 2.78 or 178% more damage than live, so they do almost 3x the damage mobs do in Acts 3 and 4 in 1.0.4. MP8 is about 2.14 or 114% more damage than live. Does that sound about right?
    My EHP and DPS Spreadsheet, mostly useful for wizards.
    My wizard, mostly useful for killing demons and collecting loot.
    Wizard CM DPS Simulator, written in Matlab, release version 1.01
    Comprehensive CMWW Guide, including gear and build suggestions, plus Uber strats
    Arcane Mines Guide, detailed guide for the highest dps wizard build, including vids
  • #36
    Also, white mobs should still die somewhat fast, and that paired with destructibles (which should have MF/GF affect them once again) should give an insane amount of gold/hour in the higher MPs. Remember destructibles and resplendant chests don't have that extra hp/dmg, but would wield much better rewards (assuming they're once again affected by GF/MF).

    I shouldn't have even mentioned MF on my post.

    I knew it would caught people's attention away from the main argument there (the really underrated thing), that was destructibles/chests being affected by GF/MF again (from a recent blue iirc) and the increase in Gold/hour due to white mobs and destructibles still being killed pretty fast in the higher difficulties (they have a lot less HP than elites, and are the main source of gold drops).

    I could be dead wrong about that, but I kinda see the possibility of that bonus gold and items (from trash mobs like scorpions and destructibles/chests) offsetting the "rare/legendary ratio" from elites.
  • #37
    The multiple posts saying that mp 0 act 3 mobs will have 63 fixes is correct
    -tested it last night on ptr and it works just fine.

    As far as efficient farming goes I was trying to find out if you can farm up multiple keys for the same act at a time.
    alkaizers route in act 3 ending with stone fort
    vota act 2 ending in oasis
    Starting in a festering woods cave ending with whatever that zone was.

    farm up like 9 keys in an act instead of flopping around between acts messing up the checkpoint.

    I was able to get a key but after a few runs I was not able to get a second key.

    Could someone please clarify if you can have multiple keys in your inventory or do we have to create the machine before a key would drop again (google has been very unhelpful for this info)

    I can't clear things on mp10 (well i guess I could bust out the tank gear) so it's hard to tell if its rng or due to the fact I already have a key.
  • #38


    On a sidenote, I think the bonus MF/GF is being heavily underrated on these speculations though.

    Specially considering how MF works. You should have a much higher chance of 6-affix items on MP10 than on MP4. Also, white mobs should still die somewhat fast, and that paired with destructibles (which should have MF/GF affect them once again) should give an insane amount of gold/hour in the higher MPs. Remember destructibles and resplendant chests don't have that extra hp/dmg, but would wield much better rewards (assuming they're once again affected by GF/MF).


    If by "much higher" chance you mean between .5 and 1% higher chance to get a 6 affix rare... then yeah, you're right. It's hardly worth considering into calculations. Check the MF thread if you dispute those numbers.
  • #39


    If you compare the total 6 affix rares for each case, you get (3262.5/2587.5) = 1.26 or 26% more 6 affix rares at the higher MF, which is the same increase as the number of legendaries, i.e., 725/575 = 1.26.


    Collected data says you are wrong here. http://www.diablofans.com/topic/57939-magic-find-and-its-efficiency-a-statistical-insight/
  • #40
    @Ruppgu
    I think the much higher 6 affix / legendary is going to come from the extra drop.
    (did the magic find thread every figure out the number of drops for normal mobs vs elites?)

    I'm curious if the extra item is really an extra item or an extra pot of gold/potion as well (making it less good)
  • To post a comment, please or register a new account.
Posts Quoted:
Reply
Clear All Quotes