1.05 "Sweetspot"

  • #1
    Well now that we can really see what comes with each MPlvl where do you guys suppose will be the best tier to play the game when farming efficiency is concerned?

    Looking at the chart that they posted for me it seems that the best trade-off will be at exactly monster power level 6, where monster only get 895% extra health and 220% extra dmg.
    And we get 150% bonus to GF and MF and 47% extra item bonus.

    Regarding place to farm i assume that it will still be act 3 roughly the Alkaizer route. But maybe faster runs on act 1 might be actually more efficient (cemetary, festering woods, Jailer and butcher) timewise as monsters will have less HP and although in lesser number the distance to run seems smaller.

    Any thoughts on the matter plz share..
  • #2
    It depends on what you mean by "farm". Are you talking about farming for items or farming for XP because there is a big difference.

    If you're talking XP, then I would agree that the Alkaizer route may still be good.

    If you're talking about items, then some of the older runs with packed elites will probably be the new runs (VotA, Watchtower, etc.)

    The sweet spot completely depends on your gear. At first glance, I thought MP 7 looked like the best due to the additional MF and XP.

    Edit... I'm not sure if mobs in Act 1 are going to have less health than the mobs in Act 3. Remember that they need to, first, bump these mobs to level 63 and then add the additional %'s for MP. You can see what I mean if you look at the other thread with bosses (skeleton king and butcher have more health than most other bosses).
  • #3
    The best way to look at the MP comparison, which has been going around the threads a lot, is the relative increase in farm run time with each successive MP level. Neglecting the bonus item, the general conclusion was keep increasing MP level until it takes you about 10% longer to farm that level than the one below it. The reason was the relatively small MF gain per level. With the bonus item, we still need to know more about how it works. For example, does it work for EACH item that drops from a monster, or just when any items drops, there's a chance for ONE extra to drop? There's quite a bit of difference between the two and how it works can make a significant difference is how we decide what act to farm.

    Example, going from MP1 to MP2, you gain 25% MF, but with no MF on gear, you already have 100 MF with NV, so you only go to 125% MF. That's a relative increase in legendaries of (225/200) = 1.125 times, or you gain 12.5% more legendaries on average. Monster health increases by 50% compared to MP1, and you only get about 7% more bonus items, so even if it applies towards each drop your net gain of legendaries is 1.125*1.07 = 1.2 or about 20% overall increase in legendaries, on average. So if it takes 20% longer to make a clear of your farm route, you about break even on the legendaries and gain a bit more xp, so it's worth it. However, if it takes 50% longer, because the mobs have 50% more health, it is not worth it because you can just farm the lower MP level faster to get more XP per hour, more legendaries per hour (on average), etc.

    Similar analysis can be done for any increase in MP but it should be done on a level to level basis, not MP1 vs MP6, for example, because your decision is most likely going to be how high to crank it up.

    As an Archon wizard I'll probably keep it at MP1-2 because if the mob hp increases much more I won't be able to keep Archon active which drastically slows my farm time.
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  • #4
    Well farming in general, i just assume everyone wants both things...

    Anyways you are right about the HP of A1 mobs, but still even if they have similar HP to A3 mobs they die easier due to being junky skellies mostly...
    I suppose the bosses themselves are scaled up on HP like that to conterweight the fact that people would prefer A1 over te others exactly because everything now has the same chance to drop the same loot and on A1 they get to kill two easy bosses after quickly acquiring 5 NV.
  • #5
    I'm reasonably sure the MP1 hp bump is relative to lvl 63 mobs, i.e., mobs in Act 3/4 MP0, not Act 1 MP0 mobs. That's what was found in those other threads.
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  • #6
    ^^ Yep.

    Like Loroese has stated, you need to look at relative values of MF increase. The more MF you have, the less you gain from monster levels.

    For example, if you're rocking 375% on monster level 0, monster level 6 will only give you 175% more MF which is only a 46% increase. Considering the amount of HP they gain is MUCH more than 46% it's unlikely that monster power will be efficient.

    I know WW barbs are different and don't care as much about monster HP (and in some cases would even prefer them to have more HP due to rage) but as a WD I think the most efficent monster level will be level 0 (unless you have good enough gear to still 1 shot monsters at higher levels with soul harvest).

    I have a feeling monster levels will only increase the divide between Barbs and other classes. For example, wizards/WDs rely on "onkill" effects which don't happen as quickly when the amount of HP increases. However, barbs rely on crits which occur more often if the monster has more HP.
  • #7
    Quote from Ruppgu

    ^^ Yep.

    Like Loroese has stated, you need to look at relative values of MF increase. The more MF you have, the less you gain from monster levels.

    For example, if you're rocking 375% on monster level 0, monster level 6 will only give you 175% more MF which is only a 46% increase. Considering the amount of HP they gain is MUCH more than 46% it's unlikely that monster power will be efficient.

    I know WW barbs are different and don't care as much about monster HP (and in some cases would even prefer them to have more HP due to rage) but as a WD I think the most efficent monster level will be level 0 (unless you have good enough gear to still 1 shot monsters at higher levels with soul harvest).

    I have a feeling monster levels will only increase the divide between Barbs and other classes. For example, wizards/WDs rely on "onkill" effects which don't happen as quickly when the amount of HP increases. However, barbs rely on crits which occur more often if the monster has more HP.


    You sir, know me too well!
    Exactly it is deffinately not like i care how much HP they got, i only want them to die fast enough for me to see the sparkly green thingys flying to the floor.

    But what you said go t me thinking, i was assuming i would be benefiting from the whole boost, but since i can farm at max MF atm on M0 there really is no reason to want to crank thngs up so high....
  • #8
    Depends... For farming items in group we will probably run mp 6, for solo runs i will do like 2-4, need to test it to be able to oneshot everythin like i can now. For xp runs i think will run mp 1-3 to do incredibly fast runs, xp gain with increased mo isnt so drastical... For farming keys prob the same like for farming items.
  • #9
    I think in general MP-wise, optimum farming is going to occur just before killing starts to be non-trivial. IE, if you are currently 1-shotting whites, you probably don't want MP to force you to attack them twice. There just isn't enough benefit to justify any more difficulty than that imho (unless you have more fun when its harder), especially if you might die occasionally which can really slow a run down.

    The only real complication I see is farming keys / organs. If you want to farm them in your normal runs, it seems to me you want to be farming a minimum of MP2 even if you're no longer 1-shotting guys. On average, it should take about 75% fewer runs at MP2 compared to MP1 to forge a ring, so that's a huge benefit. From here, the benefit becomes less significant at every step (though still pretty good through MP4), so the balance depends on how highly you value the hellfire ring.
    ...and if you disagree with me, you're probably <insert random ad hominem attack here>.
  • #10
    You can farm the keys at low monster level but do the ubers at higher level. Imho that's better than just doing everything at the same level. Speed is important for key farming, but for the boss fights I think you can go to quit high difficulties before the kill speed begins to offset the gain in drop chance.

    For normal farming, I think it's best to sit at the point where you go from being limited by run speed to being limited by kill speed. Then I would check the run times for one monster level up and down and the exp/time.
  • #11
    The same logic can be applied to keys and organs. At MP5, on average it will take 6 runs (3*(10/MP)) to get your 3 keys, and another 6 runs to get the 3 organs, for a total of 12 runs. At MP6 it will take 5 runs on average for the 3 keys, and another 5 runs for the organs. Thus it takes about 20% more runs at MP5 than MP6, but if the MP6 runs take more than 20% longer, you're better off staying in MP5.

    What I'll likely do is just add the keywarden spawn zone to my farming route to get some number of keys from Act 3. Then I'll just key farm Acts 1 and 2 til I get the same number of keys. Also, might as well kill the keywarden when doing Uber runs. That will save some time and improve efficiency a bit, for those wanting to farm for rings.
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  • #12
    You will do at least mp 1 at mp1 the item affixes roll off the monster level not the item level.
    aka 10% crit on lvl 58 gloves

    The bonus item drop is huge for finding legends, so i'd expect people to bump up to mp 2 as soon as gear permits.

    Barbs will be going higher, some classes will stay put or go up when its back to one shotting whites.

    The ping on minimap for legendaries is so amazingly good for barbs.
    However it's yet to be seen how Wotb uptime is going to be screwed with the nerfs (I'm pretty confident it just ups the gear requirement and forces you to spam sprint more)
  • #13
    Quote from Loroese

    The same logic can be applied to keys and organs. At MP5, on average it will take 6 runs (3*(10/MP)) to get your 3 keys, and another 6 runs to get the 3 organs, for a total of 12 runs. At MP6 it will take 5 runs on average for the 3 keys, and another 5 runs for the organs. Thus it takes about 20% more runs at MP5 than MP6, but if the MP6 runs take more than 20% longer, you're better off staying in MP5.

    What I'll likely do is just add the keywarden spawn zone to my farming route to get some number of keys from Act 3. Then I'll just key farm Acts 1 and 2 til I get the same number of keys. Also, might as well kill the keywarden when doing Uber runs. That will save some time and improve efficiency a bit, for those wanting to farm for rings.


    You're off a bit here.

    6 runs to get the keys sure. 6 runs to get the organs, of course. But you have to rerun those first 6 runs again for each of the uber runs so it's really 6*6=36 runs (not 6+6=12 runs).

    Also, it could be more because unless you spawn all 3 portals at the same time, you don't have any control over which uber you get.

    @vastling

    Unless I am misunderstanding things, I thought items drop based on monster level even if you have monster level off. Act 3 monsters are already lvl 63 so it doesn't matter if you're playing monster level 0 on act 3.
  • #14
    Quote from vastling

    You will do at least mp 1 at mp1 the item affixes roll off the monster level not the item level.
    aka 10% crit on lvl 58 gloves

    The bonus item drop is huge for finding legends, so i'd expect people to bump up to mp 2 as soon as gear permits.

    Barbs will be going higher, some classes will stay put or go up when its back to one shotting whites.

    The ping on minimap for legendaries is so amazingly good for barbs.
    However it's yet to be seen how Wotb uptime is going to be screwed with the nerfs (I'm pretty confident it just ups the gear requirement and forces you to spam sprint more)


    Actually that is exactly half the nerf barbs took. WOTB uptime and the other half is god mode LOH based.
    But even so everything else applies to WW barbs the same as other classes... just wont be efficient to crank it up to 8 and have to waith 4 mins till you finally down a group of 2-3 elites.. not to mention the risk of dying due to the lowered resistance+LOH and increased monster dmg.

    Barbs might still be "able" to go for real high Mlvl, but it doesnt mean it will be better to be there...
  • #15
    Quote from thundersteele

    You can farm the keys at low monster level but do the ubers at higher level. Imho that's better than just doing everything at the same level. Speed is important for key farming, but for the boss fights I think you can go to quit high difficulties before the kill speed begins to offset the gain in drop chance.

    For normal farming, I think it's best to sit at the point where you go from being limited by run speed to being limited by kill speed. Then I would check the run times for one monster level up and down and the exp/time.


    That's a good point. I'd still say running at a minimum of MP2 is probably best for key runs, but it's probably worth pushing MP as high as you can manage without significant deaths for organ runs since each one represents quite a few key runs unless you're farming at vey high MP levels.


    Quote from Loroese

    The same logic can be applied to keys and organs. At MP5, on average it will take 6 runs (3*(10/MP)) to get your 3 keys, and another 6 runs to get the 3 organs, for a total of 12 runs. At MP6 it will take 5 runs on average for the 3 keys, and another 5 runs for the organs. Thus it takes about 20% more runs at MP5 than MP6, but if the MP6 runs take more than 20% longer, you're better off staying in MP5.

    What I'll likely do is just add the keywarden spawn zone to my farming route to get some number of keys from Act 3. Then I'll just key farm Acts 1 and 2 til I get the same number of keys. Also, might as well kill the keywarden when doing Uber runs. That will save some time and improve efficiency a bit, for those wanting to farm for rings.


    Unless you are solely interested in keys during your key runs, I think you need a bit less than a 20% time increase to justify doing them at MP6 instead of 5. For instance, you only get a 9% increase in XP for that step and, assuming 300%MF base, a 6% increase to MF and an 8% increase to items dropped. Since you need 5 stacks of NV to get a key drop, it seems like you'd be best served by doing a reasonable farm route for the act which is capped off by killing the key warden (as you indicate is your plan for A3), and in this case, I'd want the route to be less than about 10 to 15% longer to consider it more efficient depending on how highly I valued the keys vs other drops and xp.
    ...and if you disagree with me, you're probably <insert random ad hominem attack here>.
  • #16
    @Ruppgu
    Your probably right about the monster level if your in act 3 you wouldn't see any change to mp 1
    I'm not sure though if the change to items rolling affixes based on monster level is universal or if it is only when you are greater then mp 1 (aka as your leveling up do all things now roll affixes based on monster level instead of item level)

    When I played ptr I was playing on mp 5 for rings
    Can anyone confirm that act 3 monsters on mp 0 on the ptr roll lvl 63 affixes?

    I can check when I get home I guess.

    @RenescoD3
    The loh nerf isn't as big of a deal as the rage issue. When you get enough tornadoes going on a boss it's not going to kill you anyway unless it one shots you and you can switch to life leach at certain gear levels. I'm debating on getting the reduction to cc effect way up there, it seems the only time I die was due to Wotb being down and not able to whirl.


    As an aside if your farming act 3 now, you will probably still set it to mp 2-3 as that is supposedly equal to the current hp/ dmg
  • #17
    I didn't realize the organs don't drop 100% of the time, in D2 they did. I though it was only the keys that had to be farmed. If you get the keys and do an uber run and they don't drop the organs do you have to find the keys all over again?
  • #18
    Quote from Bernie_666

    I didn't realize the organs don't drop 100% of the time, in D2 they did. I though it was only the keys that had to be farmed. If you get the keys and do an uber run and they don't drop the organs do you have to find the keys all over again?


    Yes.
  • #19
    You will have to farm the organs several times if your not on mp10

    So the farm looks like
    farm up three sets of 3 keys
    make three infernal machines
    open all the portals

    collect organs, farm up more machines
    open portals until you get to one of the portals you need for organ

    rinse and repeat

    craft ring

    I'm unsure if a key will drop if you already have that key (they might have fixed this)

    I know you were able to craft multiple machines so you want to have 3 ready when you start on a new ring, and probably always start with three crafted in case the last one is the one you need the organ from on subsequent trips

    (you must start on the last quest of act 1, it really annoyed me when the hermits abode was not available and i had already farmed up my stacks)
  • #20
    Quote from Ruppgu

    Quote from Loroese

    The same logic can be applied to keys and organs. At MP5, on average it will take 6 runs (3*(10/MP)) to get your 3 keys, and another 6 runs to get the 3 organs, for a total of 12 runs. At MP6 it will take 5 runs on average for the 3 keys, and another 5 runs for the organs. Thus it takes about 20% more runs at MP5 than MP6, but if the MP6 runs take more than 20% longer, you're better off staying in MP5.

    What I'll likely do is just add the keywarden spawn zone to my farming route to get some number of keys from Act 3. Then I'll just key farm Acts 1 and 2 til I get the same number of keys. Also, might as well kill the keywarden when doing Uber runs. That will save some time and improve efficiency a bit, for those wanting to farm for rings.


    You're off a bit here.

    6 runs to get the keys sure. 6 runs to get the organs, of course. But you have to rerun those first 6 runs again for each of the uber runs so it's really 6*6=36 runs (not 6+6=12 runs).

    Also, it could be more because unless you spawn all 3 portals at the same time, you don't have any control over which uber you get.

    @vastling

    Unless I am misunderstanding things, I thought items drop based on monster level even if you have monster level off. Act 3 monsters are already lvl 63 so it doesn't matter if you're playing monster level 0 on act 3.


    Yes, you're right, I shouldn't have added the runs. It's probably best to keep the key runs separate from the uber boss runs because you can farm one or the other on any given MP level. The analysis still applies to each separately though.

    Also, regarding the ilvls, yes, even at MP0 the items roll affixes based on monster level, but it's actually more like max of either item ilvl or monster ilvl, since at MP0 the Act 1 mobs are still only lvl 61. That way, at MP0 it doesn't nerf the ilvl 62-63 items. Also, the fact that only ilvl 58+ drop in Inferno is independent of MP level, not that anyone asked, but before anyone does. That and the affixes based on monster level is a blanket change. The only thing MP level does is upgrade monster levels to 63 at MP1+.


    @tanis0
    I agree, the 20% is mainly just for key runs, otherwise your analysis is pretty much the same as what I mentioned before. Personally, I don't expect to do much farming in acts besides Act 3 because it's just not very efficient as an Archon wizard, so for Act 1 and 2 I'll likely just get 5 stacks and kill the warden.
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