Do you want kamikaze critter elites rebalanced?

Poll: Do you want kamikaze critter elites rebalanced?

Your opinion on those rapid rodents

Do you want kamikaze critter elites rebalanced? - Single Choice

  • It's a bad idea. 4%
  • They're fine as it is. 44%
  • Some tweaks would be nice. 40%
  • Nerf them! Right, NOW! 12%
  • #1
    Definition: I call kamikaze critters any mobs that are designed to move in on you quickly and deal a hefty amount of damage unless you kill them fast, which is easy while they're white mobs because they have very little HP. Scavengers, bats and spiderlings are all kamikaze critters.

    Normally I wouldn't care so much for this kind of thing, but after running into 3 such elite packs in a row... :boom: . It doesn't at all feel like a test of skill. More like a series of mandatory deaths, or a skip (which is even worse). Melee classes I play co-op with seem to struggle with them as well.

    The logic should be simple. If it's designed to die in 1 hit as a white it shouldn't deal nearly as much damage when it gets the HP to survive as an elite. So I call for some additional rebalancing for when that specific breed of mobs rolls as an elite pack. Less damage, more health? Restrict some affixes? Slow them down? Anything would be nice.

    Of course that's just my opinion. Lets hear yours.
    Trust me, I'm a bunny brain-surgeon from space!
  • #2
    i know what you mean, those spiders in the cave of the betrayer are badass. they are a strong test for the kiting skills, so I am for them, but some tweaks would be nice, such as no illusionist, no fast affixes.
  • #3
    Some tweaks would be nice. It's a little offputting when one of the weakest white mob types turns into one of the strongest elite types.
  • #4
    They are fine for melee in my opinion. Just have to remember that them being small doesn't mean they are not dangerous. Now, if you think they are not balanced properly for ranged classes, then maybe they should be adjusted.

    I hate those exploding mobs in A3 btw. They are really annoying, in particular when you just open a door and they explode in your face.
  • #5
    Quote from st0rmie

    Some tweaks would be nice. It's a little offputting when one of the weakest white mob types turns into one of the strongest elite types.

    ^ this.

    I like the feeling they give, that whole "omfg, not these guys!", but the white ones also deal a crapload of dmg, specially to ranged classes if they don't react properly (or if you're already fighting a badass elite and bump into them).
  • #6
    I feel like they just hit too fast, I'm totally fine with the dmg they deal.. as long as they're not attacking twice a second.

    this goes for the elites too.. I feel it's just their attack speed.
  • #7
    Quote from zach3427

    I feel like they just hit too fast, I'm totally fine with the dmg they deal.. as long as they're not attacking twice a second.

    this goes for the elites too.. I feel it's just their attack speed.

    That could be it.
    Trust me, I'm a bunny brain-surgeon from space!
  • #8
    Quote from pr3ach3r

    i know what you mean, those spiders in the cave of the betrayer are badass. they are a strong test for the kiting skills, so I am for them, but some tweaks would be nice, such as no illusionist, no fast affixes.


    spiders in a save with horde, fast, etc.... basically any of these things with horde and 3 other nasty affixes.

    I mean, it's annoying, but manageable.

    I would much prefer them to remove the monsters that just run up to you and explode. I've always hated those. Buy hey, at least D3 doesn't have Stygian Dolls!
  • #9
    They don't need tweaked as far as their power, in my opinion; the only change that needs to be made is remove their ability to be randomly chosen as an elite or champion status monster type.

    There is absolutely zero reason they should be an elite or champion, as it's nearly impossible in Inferno to actually kill one before it explodes, even with cooldowns going. It's a massive waste of an elite slot, and since they're probably going to blow you up in one shot regardless of elite status, it serves no purpose there, either.

    Remove that probability and viola, problem solved as far as I'm concerned.
  • #10
    Quote from Zakaz

    They don't need tweaked as far as their power, in my opinion; the only change that needs to be made is remove their ability to be randomly chosen as an elite or champion status monster type.

    There is absolutely zero reason they should be an elite or champion, as it's nearly impossible in Inferno to actually kill one before it explodes, even with cooldowns going. It's a massive waste of an elite slot, and since they're probably going to blow you up in one shot regardless of elite status, it serves no purpose there, either.

    Remove that probability and viola, problem solved as far as I'm concerned.

    Fallen Lunatics have indeed been removed from the potential elite list as of patch 1.04 (read the patch notes). I'm talking about the mobs that don't self-destruct. :)
    Trust me, I'm a bunny brain-surgeon from space!
  • #11
    Ask Daemaro (our moderation manager) what he thinks about these after tonight's run :P
  • #12
    Quote from Zero(pS)

    Ask Daemaro (our moderation manager) what he thinks about these after tonight's run :P

    I can already guess... :facepalmsmile:
    Trust me, I'm a bunny brain-surgeon from space!
  • #13
    Tweaked? Sure, I can go along with that. When they pose a much significantly greater threat than other types of elites, then they are IMO unbalanced and needs to be tuned and put in line. Removed as potential elites though? I vote no on that. They'd be fine if they just get tuned properly.
    Oh pitiful shadow lost in the darkness,
    Bringing torment and pain to others.
    Your damned soul wallowing in your sin.
    Perhaps...

    it is time to die.
  • #14
    Quote from CasmX

    Tweaked? Sure, I can go along with that. When they pose a much significantly greater threat than other types of elites, then they are IMO unbalanced and needs to be tuned and put in line. Removed as potential elites though? I vote no on that. They'd be fine if they just get tuned properly.

    I reckon it was already done in this patch.

    The problem is they're conceptually a suicide unit. There's no easy to make them into "challenging" elites, without turning them into free loot, and without heavily changing their core concept.
  • #15
    There are certainly some poorly designed mobs in the game. The problem is that they've designed certain classes to be ranged and others to be melee, but have mobs that ignore this fact.

    Most ranged classes are designed to be able to kill better but give up defense to do it. This is the basis for class balance. Mobs like writhing deceivers, Lacuni, and those alligator looking things under the sand have a design which allows them to insta-kill with no defense other than running. These mobs are completely invulnerable or invisible when not in melee range and are designed to be able to pop up on you and strike before you can hit.

    The only real defense is to outgear them. Unfortunately, getting your gear to the point where you can handle these mobs causes the rest of the Act to be an insignificant faceroll. This is just a poor design.
  • #16
    Quote from Vuron

    There are certainly some poorly designed mobs in the game. The problem is that they've designed certain classes to be ranged and others to be melee, but have mobs that ignore this fact.

    Most ranged classes are designed to be able to kill better but give up defense to do it. This is the basis for class balance. Mobs like writhing deceivers, Lacuni, and those alligator looking things under the sand have a design which allows them to insta-kill with no defense other than running. These mobs are completely invulnerable or invisible when not in melee range and are designed to be able to pop up on you and strike before you can hit.

    The only real defense is to outgear them. Unfortunately, getting your gear to the point where you can handle these mobs causes the rest of the Act to be an insignificant faceroll. This is just a poor design.


    It's not poor design, it's working as intended balance, as you yourself just stated. Of course you're going to faceroll easier stuff when you're geared to beat the harder stuff - that's how everything works. It's conceptually impossible to make everything equally challenging without making everything exactly the same; how boring would that be?

    There's going to be certain monster types and affix combinations that are always tougher than the rest - that's the nature of this game. So is gearing up and eventually being able to beat everything. If an act is faceroll, move to the next act. If you're in the end acts, either work on making your Paypal account look nice, or make a new character. If you're out of new characters to play, repeat on hardcore. If that's not your style, I guess you've exhausted this game's entertainment value and should seriously consider a new avenue of fun.

    What else do people want? An individually tailored slider bar for difficulty that is perpetually moving to maintain a constant level of challenging content so we never get bored? Yeesh.

    edit - teh work IE can't keep up with mah typin'
  • #17
    Quote from Vuron

    There are certainly some poorly designed mobs in the game. The problem is that they've designed certain classes to be ranged and others to be melee, but have mobs that ignore this fact.

    Most ranged classes are designed to be able to kill better but give up defense to do it. This is the basis for class balance. Mobs like writhing deceivers, Lacuni, and those alligator looking things under the sand have a design which allows them to insta-kill with no defense other than running. These mobs are completely invulnerable or invisible when not in melee range and are designed to be able to pop up on you and strike before you can hit.

    The only real defense is to outgear them. Unfortunately, getting your gear to the point where you can handle these mobs causes the rest of the Act to be an insignificant faceroll. This is just a poor design.

    You can actually avoid their more dangerous attacks by knowing their timings, and how to properly move.

    Lacuni have a mortar attack and a dash/jump attack, you can sidestep both pretty easily (but you cannot dodge them if you simply move back, which is the natural reaction to it).

    Writhing Deceivers can be "baited" into attacking you (by letting them actually come close), then as soon as they start to appear you need to start moving away from them, this prevents their burst out of the shadows attack and allows you to counter. If you just run for 30 seconds, and when you actually need to dodge you stop, then it's a shitload of burst damage.

    Now ask meele classes how they feel about Fiery Constructs and Magus (when their electric resistances are crap), or just pretty much every damaging affix out there (Molten, Desecrator, Fire Chains), these are all pretty nasty for meele skilled classes, or how they feel about those Stinging bees or Spiders overall dps ;)

    Also, they feel the same way you do, but in relation to ranged monsters (and ranged packs A.I., specially constructs), how they get kited forever (which they somewhat fixed in the last 2 patches) and how those Bees in act 2 can rape you if you let all their shots hit you. They also need to time their abilities to facetank kamikaze mobs, while ranged classes get to blow them all from afar :P
  • #18
    Quote from Zero(pS)

    Quote from Vuron

    There are certainly some poorly designed mobs in the game. The problem is that they've designed certain classes to be ranged and others to be melee, but have mobs that ignore this fact.

    Most ranged classes are designed to be able to kill better but give up defense to do it. This is the basis for class balance. Mobs like writhing deceivers, Lacuni, and those alligator looking things under the sand have a design which allows them to insta-kill with no defense other than running. These mobs are completely invulnerable or invisible when not in melee range and are designed to be able to pop up on you and strike before you can hit.

    The only real defense is to outgear them. Unfortunately, getting your gear to the point where you can handle these mobs causes the rest of the Act to be an insignificant faceroll. This is just a poor design.

    You can actually avoid their more dangerous attacks by knowing their timings, and how to properly move.

    Lacuni have a mortar attack and a dash/jump attack, you can sidestep both pretty easily (but you cannot dodge them if you simply move back, which is the natural reaction to it).

    Writhing Deceivers can be "baited" into attacking you (by letting them actually come close), then as soon as they start to appear you need to start moving away from them, this prevents their burst out of the shadows attack and allows you to counter. If you just run for 30 seconds, and when you actually need to dodge you stop, then it's a shitload of burst damage.

    Now ask meele classes how they feel about Fiery Constructs and Magus (when their electric resistances are crap), or just pretty much every damaging affix out there (Molten, Desecrator, Fire Chains), these are all pretty nasty for meele skilled classes, or how they feel about those Stinging bees or Spiders overall dps ;)

    Also, they feel the same way you do, but in relation to ranged monsters (and ranged packs A.I., specially constructs), how they get kited forever (which they somewhat fixed in the last 2 patches) and how those Bees in act 2 can rape you if you let all their shots hit you. They also need to time their abilities to facetank kamikaze mobs, while ranged classes get to blow them all from afar :P


    Great examples. This game is about give and take with regards to balance. Some ranged classes and builds will have easier times with some mobs and affix combinations than others, and certainly when compared to melee, will absolutely dominate under certain circumstances. The reverse is also true. That's why group play can be so much fun and interesting, because you have a much larger toolkit available to handle mob types and affix combinations (assuming of course everyone knows what they're doing).

    Really, I feel most of the mob types in this game are pretty well-balanced as a matter of baseline abilities and mechanics. This is coming from the perspective of both ranged and melee (one a glass-cannon, the other a tanky type, respectively).
  • #19
    When I get owned by them, it usually happens so fast that I never knew what hit me. Those kinds of deaths make me laugh...hard. Leave them alone...it's not like a "smack in the face to wake you up from a faceroll" hurts once in a while.
  • #20
    Quote from Boss_Hogg

    When I get owned by them, it usually happens so fast that I never knew what hit me. Those kinds of deaths make me laugh...hard. Leave them alone...it's not like a "smack in the face to wake you up from a faceroll" hurts once in a while.

    The problem arises when you get several of them in a row, which can happen in certain areas. Then it's no longer a smack in the face, it's torture. :flame:
    Trust me, I'm a bunny brain-surgeon from space!
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