Life steal broken ?

  • #21
    Quote from riptide

    I want to point out that you CAN NOT fairly compare total loh vs total life steal. You should only compare 959 loh vs 3% lifesteal, ...


    I read your other thread earlier as this topic appears quite regularly. Good stuff for articulating the Monk example. What I do not really appreciate is the statement that comparing potential totals break fairness? Obviously much easier to compare just what is gained solely on weapons but what was your rationale for marginalising any other source or LS or LoH please? You go to pains to point out "CAN NOT" so you clearly have a reason. Sorry if you made it clear in the previous thread, I must have missed it.
  • #22
    Quote from Thuld

    Quote from riptide

    I want to point out that you CAN NOT fairly compare total loh vs total life steal. You should only compare 959 loh vs 3% lifesteal, ...


    I read your other thread earlier as this topic appears quite regularly. Good stuff for articulating the Monk example. What I do not really appreciate is the statement that comparing potential totals break fairness? Obviously much easier to compare just what is gained solely on weapons but what was your rationale for marginalising any other source or LS or LoH please? You go to pains to point out "CAN NOT" so you clearly have a reason. Sorry if you made it clear in the previous thread, I must have missed it.


    Because it's an apples to oranges comparison. It's comparing 5+ stats against 2. That isn't even counting the legendaries that give LOH or sockets. How is that fair?

    You do not have to make a choice between life steal and life on hit anywhere except the weapon. Therefore that's the only time the "Life steal vs LOH" question should arise.

    *My* ideal weapon is ; Crit dmg, enhanced dmg, socket, physical/elemental dmg, 200 primary or 150/150 secondary, and then I decide between loh or life steal.

    All you're really deciding is what is the most valuable 6 stats for any given item. Your build may have 6% life leech from weapons while having 1000+ LOH from rings/neck. That's perfectly okay. Maybe you buy that life steal weapon and decide to socket it for life on hit, that's okay too. Maybe you're a barb and just get the 3% life steal belt because LOH is better for your build so you get that elsewhere.

    It should never be about I have (X) LOH so life on hit is worthless or I have (Y) life steal so LOH is worthless.

    I mean fair is subjective so this is just an opinion, but that is my reason for it.
  • #23
    Quote from riptide

    Quote from xaimx

    The max LL you can achieve is 12%. If you don't use LoH gems you can get 900+ on weapons, 300+ on rings, 650+ on neck. Thats over 3k LoH. At 12% LL, you would have to be hitting for an average of 130k or so per swing to equal it. You are talking Billions of gold in items.


    I want to point out that you CAN NOT fairly compare total loh vs total life steal. You should only compare 959 loh vs 3% lifesteal, but then again how many people have 959 weapons. So what I did in my comparison was assumed 3/6% life steal and different values of LOH.


    My comparison was specific to Barbarians, for whom I think it is fair to do this kind of comparison since they can get twice the amount LL as other classes with a mighty belt and the Bloodthirst passive.

    I'm certainly not saying that LoH is superior to LL in every case, and if it seemed that way my apologies. LL is quite impressive in AOE situations. I was mainly making my point that for Barbarians, specifically WW barbs, LoH is really the priority.
  • #24
    Quote from xaimx

    Quote from riptide

    Quote from xaimx

    The max LL you can achieve is 12%. If you don't use LoH gems you can get 900+ on weapons, 300+ on rings, 650+ on neck. Thats over 3k LoH. At 12% LL, you would have to be hitting for an average of 130k or so per swing to equal it. You are talking Billions of gold in items.


    I want to point out that you CAN NOT fairly compare total loh vs total life steal. You should only compare 959 loh vs 3% lifesteal, but then again how many people have 959 weapons. So what I did in my comparison was assumed 3/6% life steal and different values of LOH.


    My comparison was specific to Barbarians, for whom I think it is fair to do this kind of comparison since they can get twice the amount LL as other classes with a mighty belt and the Bloodthirst passive.

    I'm certainly not saying that LoH is superior to LL in every case, and if it seemed that way my apologies. LL is quite impressive in AOE situations. I was mainly making my point that for Barbarians, specifically WW barbs, LoH is really the priority.


    That's fine and all but I don't see it as a fair comparison because you're not comparing equally. You're comparing a potential 9+ items vs 4.

    You can race my bike in your street car of choice on a track. Is that fair? Then we'll consider the winner the better driver.
  • #25
    Thanks Rip,

    I just wanted to understand your rationale is all. Total x vs total y is still a viable comparison, the break point in DPS will be quite different of course (and class dependent) but I understand what you saying about an inequitable fairness view.

    Another way to think of it is that total nominal achievable stat of one versus the other gives a different view to just where a choice need be made. Say for example we wanted to compare effectiveness of primary stat but restricted ourselves to only Shoulders to reduce the complexity, it wouldn't be sensible as Strength gets an unfair advantage in that slot.

    I completely agree that it is not a case of only seek one stat, but sadly a lot of people just want someone else to tell them what to do the math for them and blindly follow a popular mantra. You know that better than most as you also had to contend with "just stack LoH, Lifesteal is crap" zealots in previous threads ;-)
  • #26
    Quote from riptide

    That's fine and all but I don't see it as a fair comparison because you're not comparing equally. You're comparing a potential 9+ items vs 4.

    You can race my bike in your street car of choice on a track. Is that fair? Then we'll consider the winner the better driver.


    Really 9 slots can get LoH? I count 5; 2 weapons, 2 rings and amulet. 959 Is the max weapon proc for LoH, whereas amulets cap out at about 669, and rings cap out at 339. It takes 2 rings to equal 1 amulet, and about 1.5 amulets to equal a weapon as far as max LoH goes. The LoH found on unique items is negligible, none of them have over 100 in slots that don't have the chance to proc LoH, and none of them are really worth using anyways, even when first entering inferno.

    If you only want to compare on a weapon, 959/3=320ish LoH per 1% LL. 3265 LoH is the max you can get from gear. A barb can get up to 12% LL with the passive. 3265/12=272 LoH per 1% LL. If anything, the comparison I made is biased towards LL, not LoH and LoH is obviously superior.
  • #27
    Quote from xaimx

    Quote from Zergie

    Also LL works off ALL damage, LoH only affects when you are hitting a mob.

    No... OP:CA procs LoH every tick of damage reflected. Stand in Molten or Plague and your HP goes up instead of down with OP popped.
    Quote from Zergie

    Feared/Frozen/Shielded and not enough AR, you get dropped in a second.

    I don't see how this changes the situation if you are stacking LoH or LL, either way its a bad situation .


    In the case of feared or frozen, or jailed just out of melee range, your spells or aoes that are already up can LL WHILE your CC'd, imo thats the strongest feature of LL.

    LoH is best for certain OP skills, like monk's thunderclap, and when you are below a certain dps, in the middle-tier of dps a mix is best, and at top level dps LL pulls ahead.

    That's why Bashiok or Jay said ( I forget who ) that this stat would be OP in a few months when everyones DPS started to max out.
  • #28
    Quote from Zergie

    Quote from xaimx

    Quote from Zergie

    Also LL works off ALL damage, LoH only affects when you are hitting a mob.

    No... OP:CA procs LoH every tick of damage reflected. Stand in Molten or Plague and your HP goes up instead of down with OP popped.
    Quote from Zergie

    Feared/Frozen/Shielded and not enough AR, you get dropped in a second.

    I don't see how this changes the situation if you are stacking LoH or LL, either way its a bad situation .


    In the case of feared or frozen, or jailed just out of melee range, your spells that are up can LL.
    Like WW for wiz's.


    I still don't see where u are going with this, as they can also proc LoH...
  • #29
    No not all spells and abilities do this. Some certainly do, and it excels on fast hitting spells ( like WW ).

    Where as LL is based off ANY damage you do.
  • #30
    edit failure
  • #31
    Quote from xaimx

    Quote from riptide

    That's fine and all but I don't see it as a fair comparison because you're not comparing equally. You're comparing a potential 9+ items vs 4.

    You can race my bike in your street car of choice on a track. Is that fair? Then we'll consider the winner the better driver.


    Really 9 slots can get LoH? I count 5; 2 weapons, 2 rings and amulet. 959 Is the max weapon proc for LoH, whereas amulets cap out at about 669, and rings cap out at 339. It takes 2 rings to equal 1 amulet, and about 1.5 amulets to equal a weapon as far as max LoH goes. The LoH found on unique items is negligible, none of them have over 100 in slots that don't have the chance to proc LoH, and none of them are really worth using anyways, even when first entering inferno.

    If you only want to compare on a weapon, 959/3=320ish LoH per 1% LL. 3265 LoH is the max you can get from gear. A barb can get up to 12% LL with the passive. 3265/12=272 LoH per 1% LL. If anything, the comparison I made is biased towards LL, not LoH and LoH is obviously superior.


    In addition to what you stated you can get it on legendary gloves and legendary pants. Also gems. :)

    Btw blackthornes are very underrated pants for a MF set, lots of EHP potential.
  • #32
    You didn't really read what you quoted, did you?
  • #33
    Quote from xaimx

    You didn't really read what you quoted, did you?


    Yes, I did read what I quoted. You asked where I got 9 from so I said it. If I didn't read it I wouldn't have mentioned blackthornes because you'd be a moron to not see they compare EHP wise (not counting the LOH) to pants that are 10m+ and they cost like 1m.

    You're either comparing max loh vs max life steal or you're comparing single property to single property.You're just trying to make it fit your argument.

    You also didn't mention gems so I brought that up. My point is 9 vs 4 is not fair just like 5v4 is not fair. That's it. It's that simple.

    Compare stat for stat on slot for slot for stat like an intelligent person would. You don't try to compare X v Y but then throw in Z. You don't see a good scientist attempt something without controlling/limiting the variables as much as possible.

    I mean do you build your gear the same way you compare things rather than weighing it against your options for that particular slot? HMMM I need 800 resist 8k armor 1643 loh 3% life steal 72,584 dmg. You probably also think that 175 vit and 80 resist all item is better than 280 vit. (not counting shouts or % life healing)


    Besides you already illustrated the point that you didn't do any serious testing with loh vs life steal when you brought up AOE. Because that doesn't change anything unless LOH doesn't proc on that aoe ability. (like sweeping winds) As far as barbs go that isn't the case.
  • #34
    Quote from riptide

    Yes, I did read what I quoted. You asked where I got 9 from so I said it. If I didn't read it I wouldn't have mentioned blackthornes because you'd be a moron to not see they compare EHP wise (not counting the LOH) to pants that are 10m+ and they cost like 1m.

    You're either comparing max loh vs max life steal or you're comparing single property to single property.You're just trying to make it fit your argument.

    You also didn't mention gems so I brought that up. My point is 9 vs 4 is not fair just like 5v4 is not fair. That's it. It's that simple.

    Compare stat for stat on slot for slot for stat like an intelligent person would. You don't see a good scientist attempt something without controlling/limiting the variables as much as possible. I mean do you build your gear the same way you compare things rather than weighing it against your options for that particular slot?

    YO DAWG MY CHEST HAS MORE STATS THAN MY LEGS FUCK LEGS SUCK.

    Besides you already illustrated the point that you didn't do any serious testing with loh vs life steal when you brought up AOE. Because that doesn't change anything unless LOH doesn't proc on that aoe ability. (like sweeping winds) As far as barbs go that isn't the case.


    Blackthorne's are ok if you wanna tank, but with the stats we were talking about in the comparison, its unrealistic to think that anyone would chose to use blackthorne's because they have very little contribution to damage. And again, the LoH proc isn't even worth mentioning its so low. I was assuming common sense would be taken into account, my mistake.

    Different slots have different stat allocations, you cant make a 1:1 comparison in just one slot. I thought this was obvious but apparently not.

    Gems: again, no one is using LoH gems with that amount of LoH already on their gear or high damage (assumed, since LL is worthless in low end gear and then there isn't even an argument to be made here).

    An "intelligent" person would know that unless you ran hundreds of permutations, logged the data, and used statistical analysis, just running around and going by what your gut feeling is better is a meaningless conclusion; hence the reason I resorted to math rather than testing to make my case.

    Anyways since this has derailed to the point of name-calling there is no point in continuing the discussion. You and I seem to be trying to make separate points, and I think we both got our respective points across.
  • #35
    Quote from xaimx

    Blackthorne's are ok if you wanna tank, but with the stats we were talking about in the comparison, its unrealistic to think that anyone would chose to use blackthorne's because they have very little contribution to damage. And again, the LoH proc isn't even worth mentioning its so low. I was assuming common sense would be taken into account, my mistake.

    Different slots have different stat allocations, you cant make a 1:1 comparison in just one slot. I thought this was obvious but apparently not.

    Gems: again, no one is using LoH gems with that amount of LoH already on their gear or high damage (assumed, since LL is worthless in low end gear and then there isn't even an argument to be made here).

    An "intelligent" person would know that unless you ran hundreds of permutations, logged the data, and used statistical analysis, just running around and going by what your gut feeling is better is a meaningless conclusion; hence the reason I resorted to math rather than testing to make my case.

    Anyways since this has derailed to the point of name-calling there is no point in continuing the discussion. You and I seem to be trying to make separate points, and I think we both got our respective points across.


    Gut feeling? If you look at the thread I linked, I'm pretty sure I used math. I know it's a lot of work to read all of that math which is exactly why I don't want to model damage for barbs. I'd also be willing to bet you didn't even model it.

    I'll take my friends word that at his gear level 3% ll = 631 loh per nado per target since apparently his 5 nados are doing 720k dmg a second. He isn't the best geared so it's probably reasonable to expect somebody to obtain gear or already has gear capable of hitting the break point that life steal surpasses loh for a barb. I know it's happened with monks by more than 40k dmg.

    I will concede that at that point for pve purposes, you would not need the life on hit or life steal though. Your damage would be so high that health globes and cool downs would suffice.

    Oh and I edited the above post before you posted because I knew you would say stat allocations are different even though the only difference is 3 socket vs 2. :) Unless of course you're saying you can't compare loh vs life steal on a weapon. In which case I don't know what to say. So I'll assume the former.

    I don't say hmm X crit is the max crit and crit is good so I'll get that, or hey I'll get 42.39 crit. I say hmm 4.5 crit is max on rings, how much is that in terms of damage? Let's compare it 34 crit dmg, 9ias, Max + dmg. etc. Then I pick the top stats I can obtain for that slot. Completely independent of other slots aside from 1 rule. Take advantage of 300 vit on chest/legs and whatever 2 items are your 300 primary.
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