Ok, so I think most people will agree that playing Diablo 3 = fighting Inferno champion packs. And Blizzard once promised us that we'd be able use any skills we like to play the game. As I've found, those two pieces just don't fit together, for the following reasons:
1. All you can snare is hot air - snares just don't work on Inferno champions. The slowdown isn't even noticeable with the naked eye until you bring the skill up to something crazy like 80% movement reduction. Also, control impairing effects such as Stun and Freeze appear to have their durations slashed by half. That's why most champion fights end up being these crazy dances.
2. Fixed damage reduction - if you try out many different skills and pay close attention to the actual amount of damage that you deal with them, you'll notice a clear trend: skills that deal a low percentage (20-60%) of your weapon's damage seem to deal barely any damage at all. And the reason for this is that the damage resistance on mobs is fixed, i.e. any time you would deal damage the same number is subtracted from it. In my experience this results in a rather awkward discrepancy where skills that claim to deal 3 times less damage (f.e. from 105% to 35%) end up actually dealing 10 (!) times less, rendering them completely useless. Skills and runes that suffer from this are those that have a high rate of attack, have additional "side-effect" damage bursts, are damage-over-time abilities or deal their total damage in several quick hits (like Spectral Blade).
These two factors make around one third of all abilities, both active and passive, unusable. So if Blizzard wants to fix the issue of people never using some skills, THIS, IMO, is where they should start.
Who's noticed the same and agrees?
Are you sure you are taking in the weapon damage and not the DPS? Skills range from your weapons damage not DPS. higer attack speed weapons will have lower damage then lets say a mace or a spear.
I divided by my attack speed of 1.4 when doing the math.
In my opinion there will never be any build diversity while playing the inferno content.
everyone who wants to achieve nearly anything will always get the build which is a little
bit better than the rest.
so there are now like 2-3 build per class people are playing with. thats exactly the amount of diversity
we will see regardless of how many patches blizz throws at us.
Totally agree, I was skeptical when Blizz said thousands of builds, because inevitably, people will use the best/most efficient build.
Unless all skills are equal in combination or dps, there will always be a best build.
Totally agree, I was skeptical when Blizz said thousands of builds, because inevitably, people will use the best/most efficient build.
Unless all skills are equal in combination or dps, there will always be a best build.
Let's hope for the best with 1.04. The good news is that they're taking the "buff the undersused" approach with D3 as opposed to "nerf the overused" approach of SC2.
2-3 builds per class? Both my DH and Barbarian are capable of clearing content with a multitude of builds approaching double-digits. Yes, a "build" is different if it includes a variety of different runes. Yes, a "build" is different if it changes even a single ability. Yes, it includes everything up to changing all runes and/or abilities.
I love how you guys try and pigeon-hole terminology into whatever specific definition works for your argument, but when asked to quantify that definition, all we get back is "uuhhhhhhhhhhhhh, hmmmmmmmmmmmm, like uh, *droooooooooooool*," or some highly generalized garbage about how "different" doesn't count unless it's 10 kinds of different.
2-3 builds per class? Both my DH and Barbarian are capable of clearing content with a multitude of builds approaching double-digits. Yes, a "build" is different if it includes a variety of different runes. Yes, a "build" is different if it changes even a single ability. Yes, it includes everything up to changing all runes and/or abilities.
I love how you guys try and pigeon-hole terminology into whatever specific definition works for your argument, but when asked to quantify that definition, all we get back is "uuhhhhhhhhhhhhh, hmmmmmmmmmmmm, like uh, *droooooooooooool*," or some highly generalized garbage about how "different" doesn't count unless it's 10 kinds of different.
The fact of the matter is, regardless of what terminology you use, the majority of people tend to use the same rune within a skill and not use some skills at all. But like I said, here's hoping for patch 1.04.
2-3 builds per class? Both my DH and Barbarian are capable of clearing content with a multitude of builds approaching double-digits. Yes, a "build" is different if it includes a variety of different runes. Yes, a "build" is different if it changes even a single ability. Yes, it includes everything up to changing all runes and/or abilities.
I love how you guys try and pigeon-hole terminology into whatever specific definition works for your argument, but when asked to quantify that definition, all we get back is "uuhhhhhhhhhhhhh, hmmmmmmmmmmmm, like uh, *droooooooooooool*," or some highly generalized garbage about how "different" doesn't count unless it's 10 kinds of different.
The fact of the matter is, regardless of what terminology you use, the majority of people tend to use the same rune within a skill and not use some skills at all. But like I said, here's hoping for patch 1.04.
I would love to see your empirical evidence on the matter. You know, [citationneeded.jpg].
I realize the tinfoil hat-wearing club doesn't believe a word Blizzard says, but it was pointed out that the single most popular build (that is, every single skill and rune exactly the same) in the game a while back was used by approximate 1% of total characters that existed. Now granted, there are some variables in that calculation that will skew the results when looking at relevant character slots, and not just mules or bots, etc, but it's pretty much guaranteed that build still isn't even close to approaching double digits when you account for all of that (the sheer volume of characters being played assures that).
I'm all for the upcoming patch, as it's going to potentially allow for even more build diversity; to say that diversity doesn't already exist, however, is downright disingenuous and ignorant of evidence to the contrary (a whole lot of people who have done exactly what is being said cannot be done).
I would love to see your empirical evidence on the matter. You know, [citationneeded.jpg].
When was the last time you saw someone use Weapon Throw in an Inferno co-op run? Or Wave of Light? Or Disintegrate? Cause I sure haven't. All I've seen is LoH Monk tanks, Frenzy and Whirlwind Barbs (99.9% of which use War Cry), glass-cannon Demon Hunters who all favor that 3-shot venom pierce-through attack, Gargantuan+Fettish Army WDs, CM Wizards (that repetitive sound of Explosive Blast is burned into my skull by now) and Venom Hydra Wizards. People who deviate in the slightest from this constitute less than 10% of whom I meet. And let me tell you, I play a lot of Inferno co-op.
When was the last time you saw someone use Weapon Throw in an Inferno co-op run? Or Wave of Light? Or Disintegrate? Cause I sure haven't. All I've seen is LoH Monk tanks, Frenzy and Whirlwind Barbs (99.9% of which use War Cry), glass-cannon Demon Hunters who all favor that 3-shot venom pierce-through attack, Gargantuan+Fettish Army WDs, CM Wizards (that repetitive sound of Explosive Blast is burned into my skull by now) and Venom Hydra Wizards. People who deviate in the slightest from this constitute less than 10% of whom I meet. And let me tell you, I play a lot of Inferno co-op.
Were those loh monk tanks using MoE+HT, MoH+ToN, MoC+O? Were the DHs using ES+FA or ES+BA? Obviously the venom wizards were CM wizards, but what were their other passives?
Because I'm not sure how productive this discussion would become if it turned into a disgreement about whether or not builds were diverse enough.
... and it seems moot point giving the imminent skill reworks.
I would love to see your empirical evidence on the matter. You know, [citationneeded.jpg].
When was the last time you saw someone use Weapon Throw in an Inferno co-op run? Or Wave of Light? Or Disintegrate? Cause I sure haven't. All I've seen is LoH Monk tanks, Frenzy and Whirlwind Barbs (99.9% of which use War Cry), glass-cannon Demon Hunters who all favor that 3-shot venom pierce-through attack, Gargantuan+Fettish Army WDs, CM Wizards (that repetitive sound of Explosive Blast is burned into my skull by now) and Venom Hydra Wizards. People who deviate in the slightest from this constitute less than 10% of whom I meet. And let me tell you, I play a lot of Inferno co-op.
Neither my barbarian nor DH use the skills you've described, with the exception of War Cry (because it's very powerful - every class has one or two of these types of abilities). I could list an entire page of builds that are utilized on a regular basis to farm all available content (but won't because it's readily available for you to find if you so choose, rather than jumping to conclusions based on less than 30 seconds of research). Your point has been dismantled. Anything else?
I would love to see your empirical evidence on the matter. You know, [citationneeded.jpg].
When was the last time you saw someone use Weapon Throw in an Inferno co-op run? Or Wave of Light? Or Disintegrate? Cause I sure haven't. All I've seen is LoH Monk tanks, Frenzy and Whirlwind Barbs (99.9% of which use War Cry), glass-cannon Demon Hunters who all favor that 3-shot venom pierce-through attack, Gargantuan+Fettish Army WDs, CM Wizards (that repetitive sound of Explosive Blast is burned into my skull by now) and Venom Hydra Wizards. People who deviate in the slightest from this constitute less than 10% of whom I meet. And let me tell you, I play a lot of Inferno co-op.
Neither my barbarian nor DH use the skills you've described, with the exception of War Cry (because it's very powerful - every class has one or two of these types of abilities). I could list an entire page of builds that are utilized on a regular basis to farm all available content (but won't because it's readily available for you to find if you so choose, rather than jumping to conclusions based on less than 30 seconds of research). Your point has been dismantled. Anything else?
Dismantled? Just because you say your characters don't use the skills he mentioned? You're only one person.
What he says is my experience as well; I join a lot of public games and I always see Venom Hydra, Frenzy or WW, often see the venom Bola shot,etc.
Your point has been dismantled. Anything else?
And no, changing a single rune does not a different build make. No matter how many times you say it does.
Again, show me actual data, not your "experience" (which is questionable at best, guy who hasn't even cleared Act 2 normal on his displayed account). You and everyone else like you need to stop contending points that you're clueless about. Stop citing numbers, figures, even generalized bullshit like "majority" unless you have some hard fucking data to back it up.
Lastly, don't make me point you to the dictionary. Having a semantics battle over the definition of a word that a second-grader knows just makes you look stupid. Even foregoing the single rune deviation, there are still hundreds of different builds out there between the classes. A quick look at the class forums here alone will show you that. Stop being difficult (do you know what that word means?)
Most people will gravitate towards popular builds, and there will probably always be a few low-risk/high-damage builds that dominate for that very reason.
'Build popularity' is something of a red herring, for that very reason. It's not Blizzard's job to make all builds equally popular, it's just their job to make sure that for people who want to, trying different builds is fun and rewarding.
Most people will gravitate towards popular builds, and there will probably always be a few low-risk/high-damage builds that dominate for that very reason.
'Build popularity' is something of a red herring, for that very reason. It's not Blizzard's job to make all builds equally popular, it's just their job to make sure that for people who want to, trying different builds is fun and rewarding.
Except that they don't work in Act 3 unless ure carried.
That pretty much sums up the argument. It's not that we want people to stop using template builds. We just want more creative ones to be equally potent.
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Object permanence applies here. If you can't see it, it does not exist. Right?
Totally agree, I was skeptical when Blizz said thousands of builds, because inevitably, people will use the best/most efficient build.
Unless all skills are equal in combination or dps, there will always be a best build.
I love how you guys try and pigeon-hole terminology into whatever specific definition works for your argument, but when asked to quantify that definition, all we get back is "uuhhhhhhhhhhhhh, hmmmmmmmmmmmm, like uh, *droooooooooooool*," or some highly generalized garbage about how "different" doesn't count unless it's 10 kinds of different.
I would love to see your empirical evidence on the matter. You know, [citationneeded.jpg].
I realize the tinfoil hat-wearing club doesn't believe a word Blizzard says, but it was pointed out that the single most popular build (that is, every single skill and rune exactly the same) in the game a while back was used by approximate 1% of total characters that existed. Now granted, there are some variables in that calculation that will skew the results when looking at relevant character slots, and not just mules or bots, etc, but it's pretty much guaranteed that build still isn't even close to approaching double digits when you account for all of that (the sheer volume of characters being played assures that).
I'm all for the upcoming patch, as it's going to potentially allow for even more build diversity; to say that diversity doesn't already exist, however, is downright disingenuous and ignorant of evidence to the contrary (a whole lot of people who have done exactly what is being said cannot be done).
Were those loh monk tanks using MoE+HT, MoH+ToN, MoC+O? Were the DHs using ES+FA or ES+BA? Obviously the venom wizards were CM wizards, but what were their other passives?
Because I'm not sure how productive this discussion would become if it turned into a disgreement about whether or not builds were diverse enough.
... and it seems moot point giving the imminent skill reworks.
Neither my barbarian nor DH use the skills you've described, with the exception of War Cry (because it's very powerful - every class has one or two of these types of abilities). I could list an entire page of builds that are utilized on a regular basis to farm all available content (but won't because it's readily available for you to find if you so choose, rather than jumping to conclusions based on less than 30 seconds of research). Your point has been dismantled. Anything else?
Again, show me actual data, not your "experience" (which is questionable at best, guy who hasn't even cleared Act 2 normal on his displayed account). You and everyone else like you need to stop contending points that you're clueless about. Stop citing numbers, figures, even generalized bullshit like "majority" unless you have some hard fucking data to back it up.
Lastly, don't make me point you to the dictionary. Having a semantics battle over the definition of a word that a second-grader knows just makes you look stupid. Even foregoing the single rune deviation, there are still hundreds of different builds out there between the classes. A quick look at the class forums here alone will show you that. Stop being difficult (do you know what that word means?)
Dunno about monk or DH builds but all I see is WW/Sprint Barbs and CM Wiz's. Every now and then I see a snare wiz ( Arc. Orb/Blizz/V.Hydra )
But really 19/20 games thats all I see, WW/S Barb or CM Wiz;s.
'Build popularity' is something of a red herring, for that very reason. It's not Blizzard's job to make all builds equally popular, it's just their job to make sure that for people who want to, trying different builds is fun and rewarding.
All this discussion is rather moot though, given the announced changes to increase viablity of other specs.