How Inferno champion packs kill build diversity

  • #43
    Quote from Rade
    Everyone would be using all of the template builds for each class instead of choosing just one.


    And why exactly would that be a problem ?

    We are talking about a ARPG here...not a friggen MMO.
  • #44
    Quote from PsiStorm

    An 18% DoT? Is that damage even visible with the naked eye? Or perhaps champions have a weaker resistance to Poison for some reason? I guess I'll have to check that out.




    Do you even play the game?

    Venom Hydra is by a LARGE margin the biggest DPS component of kiting builds.

    Also, why your thread title is correct your reasoning is a bunch of crap, You know elite champs kill build diversity? It's because they kill you in under 5 hits no matter how good your gear is. This fact makes the following builds possible:

    1) Glass Cannon builds that destroy anything before it's even near. These builds avoid ranged packs as much as they can and fall apart when they run into fast on an inherently fast mob. Ironically this is the cheapest way to farm inferno, but you have to be good at dodging stuff.

    2) Supertank builds that can tank most packs indefinately by using some pseudo-broken combination of spells and talents (critical mass builds, 4-set Nats builds) or by being a melee class (that for some reason take 30% less damage from everything) and stacking defensive stats and skills up to the wazoo. Combined with life on hit, of course. These builds fall apart on shielded mobs and tend to skip molten and/or arcane enchanted packs.

    3) Kiting builds that can take a few hits, and are basically a safer (but significantly more expensive) version of glass cannons builds.

    Anything but one of these three will lead to nothing but frustration and a lot of deaths. Since about 80% of the skills in the game don't fit into one of the above builds, no build diversity is possible. I'm not convinced 1.04 or even 1.1 will fix anything of this, because unless they (again) axe the ridiculous damage output of mobs in act3+ (and some mobs in act 2... broodlings and accursed I'm talking to you) nothing will change, really.

    Who cares if Disintegrate will suddenly do 400% weapon damage? It's not like you can stand there and channel it.


    This.

    Quote from Rade

    Quote from MCMXCIX

    Who cares about build diversity? If you're enjoying the game, then so be it.

    I'd enjoy it even more if I felt I wasn't forced into a set of build templates. I'd imagine a lot of other people would as well. Hence the desire for change.


    Would you enjoin it more if you came with the idea of those build templates?

    You want your build to have worked in Inferno like in Hell but apparently there are smarterr people who found better combinations (plrl. =/= 1) of skills.

    Accept it or get better at building/analyzing skills! Your statement about the Hydra is absurd.
  • #45

    Of you die in 5 hits then you're playing a glass cannon.


    You have no clue, honestly...


    Oh, I know I would. With great delight. :) And a Diamond Skin with Prism like I use to in Hell difficulty.


    Or, of course, you never touched inferno.
  • #46
    Quote from Rade

    Except that the slow is non-existant for elites :) So you end up spending 6 seconds dealing less damage than a single Arcane Orb for more cost. Which is why noone has any reason to use it. And that is bad.
    And you're missing the point. I'm not complaining about my character's efficacy in Inferno (I'm already in Act 2, BTW), I'm pointing out issues Blizzard should address if they want greater build diversity.

    The slow isn't "non-existant", but it doesn't prevent the mobs from reaching you unless you have +movement-speed and kite.

    Quote from Rade
    Don't you feel it should be more than just a handful?

    There are more than a handful - but not all of them are viable without gear. Or with the gear you find from just "completing the game". You need to farm some places and get your stats up - getting to act2 isn't hard if you skip elites and/or zerg away - to see if your spec works at some point, you should be able to farm that place with relative ease.
    Some specs requires you to stack certain stats - you can't really go for a tank-specced wiz without resists, and you can't go for a glass cannon-spec if you have too low dmg and/or don't know how to kite.

    With your 14k dps, I'm not really sure what spec you are trying to get to work.
  • #47
    Quote from Whitetroll


    With your 14k dps, I'm not really sure what spec you are trying to get to work.


    until the OP link his profile I assume is this :)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gK1SmUKTq14
  • #48
    Quote from khanbg

    until the OP link his profile I assume is this :)

    It was until I started using Energy Armor with a shield to tank the damage. Now that I've farmed enough gear I switched the shield for a source, but the build is left unchanged. I'd link the profile, but I'm a bit apprehensive about my Battle Tag in the URL. So here's some screenshots instead:





    Even with the increased DPS the low-damage skills don't seem worth the time. So it's Arcane Orb spamming for me :|

    Quote from PsiStorm

    Or, of course, you never touched inferno.

    If that were the case, I would be complaining about the game in general and not the specific things I mentioned. No, I've deduced those after trying dozens of builds in Act 1 Inferno runs.
    Trust me, I'm a bunny brain-surgeon from space!
  • #49
    I kind of agree about snares. I don't like having to be "too fast" in reactions/thinking, it's nice to have time to think and react, rather than being ultra fast as being the skill (SCII, bleargh). With damage as it is though, full crowd control on inferno elites probably wouldn't work too well, since stun-locking may be too viable and end up being the best strategy. stunlock instead of kite and plough your 100k dps through them. :) I think there is wiggle room though, especially on some of the CC's. A way to know about this in-game without having to reference the guide would be nice too.

    Fixed damage reduction is simply not true.

    Blizzard have said that build diversity is not where they would like and 1.0.4 is the first proper balance patch aimed at improving this, so let's wait for the announcement and patch notes, and really, until we can try the changes in-game, before getting too worried, :)

    Edit: Get yourself a better weapon. I can't see if there are any other good affixes on it, but it doesn't look like it when the best one is 91 Int... :) 100k Gold (which you can earn in an hour in Nightmare or Hell) can get you something much, much better now than two weeks ago.

    My guess is you can get a 1,000 DPS weapon with 100+ Int for less than you paid for the one you have equipped if you got it a while ago.
  • #50
    Quote from FleckerMan

    Edit: Get yourself a better weapon. I can't see if there are any other good affixes on it, but it doesn't look like it when the best one is 91 Int... :) 100k Gold (which you can earn in an hour in Nightmare or Hell) can get you something much, much better now than two weeks ago.

    The weapon isn't from the AH, I got it in a drop, and it's full stats are:

    iLvl: 63
    400-801 Damage
    1.4 Attacks Per Second
    281-580 Lightning Damage
    +110 Stength
    +91 Intelligence
    +109 Vitality
    +14 Maximum Arcane Power
    Gem Slot

    Anyways I don't think that matters. The problem of the "better gear enables more builds" mentality is that when they get better stats, most people won't use them to farm the acts they're currently farming with a different build, they'll use them to start farming the next act with the same build. Because why gimp yourself if you can progress instead? And when you do proceed to the next act, mob resistances go up and you end up in the same situation you were in before.
    Trust me, I'm a bunny brain-surgeon from space!
  • #51
    Quote from Rade


    Anyways I don't think that matters. The problem of the "better gear enables more builds" mentality is that when they get better stats, most people won't use them to farm the acts they're currently farming with a different build, they'll use them to start farming the next act with the same build. Because why gimp yourself if you can progress instead? And when you do proceed to the next act, mob resistances go up and you end up in the same situation you were in before.




    This is not what I experianced.

    I ended inferno as an usual Barb Tank- Revenge build.
    I started to farm act1 to the point that nothing could kill me there.

    Then I got a good off-hand drop and started to test the WW-build. First with really cheap +% crit items to see how it handel act1. It was ok not much worse then the revange build.

    Soon I got better items for the build(WW-tornado) and now I can farm act3.

    So for me, "better gear enables more builds" because like in D2 here too are items that enable certain builds and those who excel other.
  • #52
    One thing that bums me out about the fact that we're even having this conversation, is the fact that we don't do as many boss runs in D3. They're SO much fun for the most part, and we just don't have any incentive to do them
  • #53
    Quote from khanbg

    This is not what I experianced.

    I ended inferno as an usual Barb Tank- Revenge build.

    See, that's the thing. Once you've finished Inferno it no longer matters what you're using. When I say "build diversity", I mean build diversity between when you first enter Inferno and the first time you beat Diablo in Inferno. That period during which you don't have the perfect gear for a specific technique.
    Trust me, I'm a bunny brain-surgeon from space!
  • #54
    Quote from Brake Failure

    One thing that bums me out about the fact that we're even having this conversation, is the fact that we don't do as many boss runs in D3. They're SO much fun for the most part, and we just don't have any incentive to do them


    I do boss runs every time I log on. I run around the different areas loading up on NV for a while, then go for a boss.

    I think they are working to make build diversity more favorable with each patch. As a barb, I needed to sword and board to survive anything act2+. Now I can run a few different specs and still be successful and efficient in any of the acts. The problem is that I love my current setup (WW/Sprint), so I don't want to change the way I play. If I ever have to go back to sword and board with a big defensive spec, I'll be really pissed off.
  • #55
    Quote from speedloader1

    Characters skills should have been designed to fight elites, they've just been designed to fulfill designers fantasies, /thread.

    Skills are rightly designed to fulfill designers' (and players') fantasies, elites should be balanced around that.

    Fixed for you.
  • #56
    Quote from Rade

    Quote from khanbg

    This is not what I experianced.

    I ended inferno as an usual Barb Tank- Revenge build.

    See, that's the thing. Once you've finished Inferno it no longer matters what you're using. When I say "build diversity", I mean build diversity between when you first enter Inferno and the first time you beat Diablo in Inferno. That period during which you don't have the perfect gear for a specific technique.


    again "better gear enables more builds"
    In the period you talk if I got better gear I would have try new things.

    I understand Buids not only as skills combination but also items. Like in D2 if you have a helm with lycantropy you can make wolfBarb, if you have good stormshield you can make a Zerker.( I don't remember all the names and those are not all needed items for the builds).

    I did try trowing barb because I found a belt with weapon trow and saw it has potential just it was not fun for me.

    And 1.03 was first step to build diversity because we didn't need no more such high def. stats. Again good example as how gear enabled more builds :)
  • #57
    Quote from Doez

    The problem is that I love my current setup (WW/Sprint), so I don't want to change the way I play. If I ever have to go back to sword and board with a big defensive spec, I'll be really pissed off.

    Consider that some classes don't even give you the option of using the build you love. WDs seem to suffer the most from this.

    Quote from Capitano666

    Quote from speedloader1

    Characters skills should have been designed to fight elites, they've just been designed to fulfill designers fantasies, /thread.

    Skills are rightly designed to fulfill designers' (and players') fantasies, elites should be balanced around that.

    I'm guessing those are the two big schools of thought in the matter. I myself prefer Capitano's, since it makes the game less about min-maxing and more about actual player skill.

    Quote from khanbg

    again "better gear enables more builds"
    In the period you talk if I got better gear I would have try new things.

    I understand Buids not only as skills combination but also items. Like in D2 if you have a helm with lycantropy you can make wolfBarb, if you have good stormshield you can make a Zerker.( I don't remember all the names and those are not all needed items for the builds).

    I did try trowing barb because I found a belt with weapon trow and saw it has potential just it was not fun for me.

    And 1.03 was first step to build diversity because we didn't need no more such high def. stats. Again good example as how gear enabled more builds :)

    So perhaps they need to make everything less of a gear-check? It would sure solve a lot of problems. The biggest one being the feeling that you have to use the AH.
    Trust me, I'm a bunny brain-surgeon from space!
  • #58
    Quote from Rade

    Quote from khanbg

    until the OP link his profile I assume is this :)

    It was until I started using Energy Armor with a shield to tank the damage. Now that I've farmed enough gear I switched the shield for a source, but the build is left unchanged. I'd link the profile, but I'm a bit apprehensive about my Battle Tag in the URL. So here's some screenshots instead:





    Even with the increased DPS the low-damage skills don't seem worth the time. So it's Arcane Orb spamming for me :|

    Quote from PsiStorm

    Or, of course, you never touched inferno.

    If that were the case, I would be complaining about the game in general and not the specific things I mentioned. No, I've deduced those after trying dozens of builds in Act 1 Inferno runs.

    The build you linked appeared to have little synergy between each other and probably that's your problem.
    Blizzard/hydra (both low damage skills in your term) had been very successful is that Blizzard provide a aoe snare to enable venom hydra stack up dots on ground over time and in the end it ramp up significant amount of damage (I had been killed by the reflect damage from venom hydra once in act 3 when a bunch of facelickers stuck at door, think that was about 20k per tick -.-#). So the play style of that build is kite around the snare area created by blizzard and let venom hydra do the damage.
    I can't figure out a good strategy using your build though. Frost nova cannot hold champion/elite for more than 1sec, wave of force can only push packs away for a couple of secs before those mobs come on you again. To make matter worse you don't have many escape button to get you out of trouble. You don't have crit mass to reduce CD of frost nova, don't have illusionist passive to reset teleport CD after taking a big hit. The only case this may work is to go full glass canon and melt mobs before they reach you and your dps is surely not even close to that goal.

    I suggest you give blizz/hydra build a try, which I think is the least gear dependent build, I had used that build to clear inferno act 1 with merely 12k dps.
  • #59
    Quote from Rade

    Consider that some classes don't even give you the option of using the build you love. WDs seem to suffer the most from this.


    Yeah I know, but I think they are working towards making all the classes more flexible. There will be a lot of upset people if the next few major patches don't fix it.
  • #60
    Quote from Whitetroll

    Quote from Rade

    Quote from Ankhesenisis

    1. Working as intended and any type of cc/stun/snare/root/lifeLEACH is reduced by % on inferno [75% if i`m not mistaking]. So your 2s stun is actually ... do the math, only 25% of actual duration.

    Which means there is no reason to use those skills unless you completely devote to a specific build. Build diversity demands that they be useful in any build :|

    Quote from Ankhesenisis

    ...It will be much harder, u'll die more often, some packs will be impossible...

    Yes, that's what we mean when we say "not viable" and "unusable" :).

    Quote from Ankhesenisis

    About the % weap damage, perhaps there are some bugged skills/runes that are not working as they are supposed to but just an example cyclone monks: a huge part of theyr damage 50-70% is entirely made by that skill which deals only 20% of weapon dmg.

    I don't know, if it were a bug I figured they would have fixed it by now. I'm just basing this off of my own observations. Of how using certain skills feels like your trying to tickle opponents to death.


    Could you post something about your class/spec?
    Basic example:
    Spell A. 10k dmg - casttime: 1s
    Spell B. 4k dmg - casttime: 0.4s
    You see how that math adds up? Cast-times are ofc totally random in my example, but I can't stop wondering if you maybe see more "small numbers" compared to big? Like maybe 2.5x as many 4k-numbers as 10k-numbers when you change spec?

    Ofc there are specs you just can not get to work - like building a wizard with pure defensive skills(i.e.: diamond skin, teleport, force armor, mirror image, time warp and magic weapon), so a part of the game is also figuring out what works and what doesn't. I play a wizard thus I'm obviously inclined to inspect more wizards, and I've yet to see two wizards with the same build(except wicked-wind melee-build, but that's probably only because it has been quite hyped lately).


    I had a tank wizard. I stacked resistances and armor, had a board and helm of the command, decent string of ears.
    I had mirror immage, duplicates and illusionist, energy armor (started with force armor but swapped to several others when i had some better gear). My damage was really low but once i used damage reflect on diamond skin and meteor - comet (cause it is very good with life on hit) I did some decent damage. Very fun build, but it can't kill stuff as fast as Archon, thats why i only use it sometimes in groups bt hardly ever for solo farming
  • #61
    Quote from Rade

    So perhaps they need to make everything less of a gear-check? It would sure solve a lot of problems. The biggest one being the feeling that you have to use the AH.


    No, why should they Inferno is not for everyone.
    You have a skill set you like you need to get the gear to compliment it - this is the Diablo way.
    In what difficulty you'll be able to use it successfully is another thing ;)
  • #62
    Quote from Rade

    Quote from Capitano666

    Quote from speedloader1

    Characters skills should have been designed to fight elites, they've just been designed to fulfill designers fantasies, /thread.

    Skills are rightly designed to fulfill designers' (and players') fantasies, elites should be balanced around that.

    I'm guessing those are the two big schools of thought in the matter. I myself prefer Capitano's, since it makes the game less about min-maxing and more about actual player skill.


    Not my point. It's about starting with the most simple structure. In that specific game, it's the bestiary. D3 heroes are the most complicated part of the gameplay by far, then it should be fixed afterwards.
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