How Inferno champion packs kill build diversity

  • #23
    Quote from Rade

    Quote from proletaria

    ..., but I think for the most part every class (again, exception for the wd) has a handful of inferno viable builds that don't requite you to hit high benchmark stats.

    Don't you feel it should be more than just a handful?


    I think more will become viable over time, since there are bound to be tweaks in patches and discoveries of new skill combinations to come. I also think that it's a good thing to have some limitation to inferno-level builds. I would really hate to see inferno become so trivial that any combination of skills could do the trick even though I do want to see the functionally bad skill/rune combos of every class addressed eventually.

    Just to be clear on what constitutes a handful, I'm talking about a half-dozen or more template builds per class. If you're willing to accept build variant by 1 or 2 skills then the number of viable builds for non-wd is pretty large considering how young the game is.
  • #24
    Quote from proletaria

    I would really hate to see inferno become so trivial that any combination of skills could do the trick even though I do want to see the functionally bad skill/rune combos of every class addressed eventually.

    Well, obviously one should need a good balance between damagers and utilities for their build. I am just hoping they make the choice of viable damagers and utilities more broad, because right now there are ones that aren't viable in any combination with anything.

    Quote from proletaria

    Just to be clear on what constitutes a handful, I'm talking about a half-dozen or more template builds per class. If you're willing to accept build variant by 1 or 2 skills then the number of viable builds for non-wd is pretty large considering how young the game is.

    Still feels a bit cramped to me :)
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  • #25
    Quote from Rade

    Well, obviously one should need a good balance between damagers and utilities for their build. I am just hoping they make the choice of viable damagers and utilities more broad, because right now there are ones that aren't viable in any combination with anything.


    Can you give me some examples of skills that simply aren't viable in any way? Because I know of a lot of under-used skills that are of situational use at least. I'm not saying they don't exist, but I don't think they make up the bulk of the skillsets either.
  • #26
    Quote from proletaria

    Can you give me some examples of skills that simply aren't viable in any way? Because I know of a lot of under-used skills that are of situational use at least. I'm not saying they don't exist, but I don't think they make up the bulk of the skillsets either.

    Since I currently only play Wizard in Inferno, I can only speak for Wizard skills. The following are unusable against Inferno champions:

    Active:
    Spectral Blade: all Runes
    Electrocute: all Runes
    Energy Twister: all except Gale Force (because it's 60% each second, the real damage dealt leaves a lot to be desired)
    Slow time: all except Time Shell (and it's very difficult to catch them in that smaller bubble)
    Hydra: all Runes
    Meteor: surprized? The trailing 60% damage over 3 seconds gets hit by resistances so bad, it's essentially 0. And you have better options for 200% damage (and even for 260% with the Molten Impact Rune).
    Blizzard: all except Frozen Solid Rune

    Passive:
    Paralysis (due to significantly reduced duration)
    Temporal Flux (effect not even visible)
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  • #27
    Quote from Rade

    Quote from speedloader1

    Characters skills should have been designed to fight elites, they've just been designed to fulfill designers fantasies, /thread.

    No, they were designed for Normal difficulty. And Blizzard admitted that they need to be fixed for them to be used in Inferno.


    The design is just plain absurd, whatever the mode.

    Almost no synergies between skills and item affixes
    Cheap skill effects providing what items already provide (cc%, ccc%, ll%)
    Huge uncontrolled def/off burst skills promoting unsporting glass canons
    Totally useless/op runes, and that was previsible without knowing the bestiary (lingering fog..)

    Exploits builds, lack of variety, dull itemization, fast progression till inferno, it's all rooted in skill design.
  • #28
    Spectral Blades (Healing Blades, I believe) is a melee Wiz build variant, as is Energy Twister (I believe Gale Force is the desired rune).

    Both Snowbound and Stark Winter are legitemate Blizzard runes.

    Venom Hydra is one of the single best Wizard abilities in the game.

    At this point I feel like either you are horribly mis-informed, or you're just trolling. You very well know that most of these "issues" are going to be fixed in 1.0.4, that Blizzard has been working on this for well over a month, and you're still going on about it as if somehow we don't know that Toad of Hugeness has no use in Inferno.

    You're not providing meaningful feedback. It's no different than whining that Legendaries suck right now. It doesn't add a damned bit of anything to the process. Continuing to identify things that are already on the radar and on the list of things to be fixed in the short term doesn't do anything. So, ultimately, what does this thread do that is new? What feedback are you providing that hasn't already been brought up a hundred times in various class forums?
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  • #29
    Quote from Rade

    Since I currently only play Wizard in Inferno, I can only speak for Wizard skills. The following are unusable against Inferno champions:

    Active:
    Spectral Blade: all Runes
    Electrocute: all Runes
    Energy Twister: all except Gale Force (because it's 60% each second, the real damage dealt leaves a lot to be desired)
    Slow time: all except Time Shell (and it's very difficult to catch them in that smaller bubble)
    Hydra: all Runes
    Meteor: surprized? The trailing 60% damage over 3 seconds gets hit by resistances so bad, it's essentially 0. And you have better options for 200% damage (and even for 260% with the Molten Impact Rune).
    Blizzard: all except Frozen Solid Rune

    I think Spectral Blade with Deep Cuts is the bread and butter of some meele wizards who still don't have AP on crit or enough crit chance to keep AP up.
    I thought Hydra (Venom) was one of the best "passive dps" abilities out there.
    I've seen other Blizzard runes being used in Inferno (the reduced AP one and the bigger AoE) with decent results (it functions similarly to Hydra, low sustained dps).
    Slow Time (preferably with the 20% bonus dmg rune) can have a 100% uptime with a crit mass build, so it's really good for meele Wizards as well.
    And wasn't Meteor also a staple of meele builds a couple patches ago, with the trail giving solid Life on Hit procs?

    I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just pointing out a couple things that drew my attention there. Spells like Wave of Force, Ice Armor or Storm Armor are quite bad though.

    I can agree with Electrocute, Paralysis and Temporal Flux, though. They seem just too weak against champ packs.
  • #30
    Quote from shaggy

    Spectral Blades (Healing Blades, I believe) is a melee Wiz build variant, as is Energy Twister (I believe Gale Force is the desired rune).

    If it's the Healing Blades then it's more for the healing than for the damage, it seems. And I mentioned Gale Force in my examples.

    Quote from shaggy

    Both Snowbound and Stark Winter are legitemate Blizzard runes.

    Snowbound would have been good if it were possible to stack Blizzards (but it's not). As for Stark Winter, I can't see how an increased area of effect helps against champions.

    Quote from shaggy

    Venom Hydra is one of the single best Wizard abilities in the game.

    An 18% DoT? Is that damage even visible with the naked eye? Or perhaps champions have a weaker resistance to Poison for some reason? I guess I'll have to check that out.

    Quote from shaggy

    At this point I feel like either you are horribly mis-informed, or you're just [yada yada...]

    I'm well aware of the upcoming changes and I'm just doing what we all refer to by the lovely name of "providing feedback". Even though the way we actually do it is oftentimes less than lovely :)

    Quote from Zero(pS)

    I think Spectral Blade with Deep Cuts is the bread and butter of some meele wizards who still don't have AP on crit or enough crit chance to keep AP up.

    I've actually tried that. But it left a bit of a bad taste in my mouth to have it purely for the sake of charging up Arcane Energy.

    Quote from Zero(pS)

    I've seen other Blizzard runes being used in Inferno (the reduced AP one and the bigger AoE) with decent results (it functions similarly to Hydra, low sustained dps).

    Perhaps what you've seen is people farming one or two acts below of what they're capable of. And they switch up skills when they go to the upper acts?

    Quote from Zero(pS)

    Slow Time (preferably with the 20% bonus dmg rune) can have a 100% uptime with a crit mass build, so it's really good for meele Wizards as well.

    The problem with that Rune is getting your party to stay in one place :) Which in most cases is suicide for all but a tank-only party.

    Quote from Zero(pS)

    And wasn't Meteor also a staple of meele builds a couple patches ago, with the trail giving solid Life on Hit procs?

    Hmm, well I suppose that if you have a ton of LoH then yes, that is the one case where you'd want to use Meteor for it's rapid trail. But I'd rather see it used in different builds as well.
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  • #31
    Well, it was a friend of mine who used his Wizard's Blizzard with other runes on Act 3. He got bored of it and switched to Barb though.

    And the Slow Time I've only seen on solo builds, didn't mean for coop. It might still be good if you have like a Monk and a Barbarian to hold enemies at bay and a ranged DH/Wiz dealing the dmg, since the enemies tend to stay in the bubble fighting the meele guys. They're generally facetanking stuff anyways (except arcane/desecrator/firechains).
  • #32
    I see no need to add something to the active skills that has not mentioned before by other posters. Probably you, OP, should take a look on wizard guides before making such wrong statements. There is an excellent overview from Morphos within the Wizard forums.

    Quote from Rade

    Passive:
    Temporal Flux (effect not even visible)


    Fast arcane orb builds use this in combination with an arcane hydra sometimes. Maybe not the best passive currently but definitely usable against champions if your haste and AP on crit is high enough to spam orbs (plus hydra).

    Quote from shaggy

    At this point I feel like either you are horribly mis-informed, or you're just trolling.


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  • #33
    An 18% DoT? Is that damage even visible with the naked eye? Or perhaps champions have a weaker resistance to Poison for some reason? I guess I'll have to check that out.




    Do you even play the game?

    Venom Hydra is by a LARGE margin the biggest DPS component of kiting builds.

    Also, why your thread title is correct your reasoning is a bunch of crap, You know elite champs kill build diversity? It's because they kill you in under 5 hits no matter how good your gear is. This fact makes the following builds possible:

    1) Glass Cannon builds that destroy anything before it's even near. These builds avoid ranged packs as much as they can and fall apart when they run into fast on an inherently fast mob. Ironically this is the cheapest way to farm inferno, but you have to be good at dodging stuff.

    2) Supertank builds that can tank most packs indefinately by using some pseudo-broken combination of spells and talents (critical mass builds, 4-set Nats builds) or by being a melee class (that for some reason take 30% less damage from everything) and stacking defensive stats and skills up to the wazoo. Combined with life on hit, of course. These builds fall apart on shielded mobs and tend to skip molten and/or arcane enchanted packs.

    3) Kiting builds that can take a few hits, and are basically a safer (but significantly more expensive) version of glass cannons builds.

    Anything but one of these three will lead to nothing but frustration and a lot of deaths. Since about 80% of the skills in the game don't fit into one of the above builds, no build diversity is possible. I'm not convinced 1.04 or even 1.1 will fix anything of this, because unless they (again) axe the ridiculous damage output of mobs in act3+ (and some mobs in act 2... broodlings and accursed I'm talking to you) nothing will change, really.

    Who cares if Disintegrate will suddenly do 400% weapon damage? It's not like you can stand there and channel it.
  • #34
    Quote from Rade

    Quote from proletaria

    Just to be clear on what constitutes a handful, I'm talking about a half-dozen or more template builds per class. If you're willing to accept build variant by 1 or 2 skills then the number of viable builds for non-wd is pretty large considering how young the game is.

    Still feels a bit cramped to me :)


    Well gosh, it's almost like this game has only been out for 3 months. Kinks to work out? No way! But it's definitely mob mechanics that are broken, and not just skills that need adjustments after hundreds of thousands of hours in playtime have determined they need tweaked. I'll ignore for now the fact that build diversity availability is directly correlated to what difficulty/act you play in, in addition to how much gear (and individual stats) you have.

    Quote from PsiStorm

    or by being a melee class (that for some reason take 30% less damage from everything)


    For some reason - definitely not because they're forced to tank with their faces the majority of the time <_
  • #35

    For some reason - definitely not because they're forced to tank with their faces the majority of the time


    Yes, because clearly between Jailer, Fast, Teleportation, Mortar and Vortex and a plethora of mobs that have one of those as an inherent ability, ranged classes are not taking almost as much hits regardless.

    Also, Monks and Barbs both have VASTLY superior defensive skills/passives that help them staying alive. Whatever the reason may be, I find it infinately easier to stay alive with my Monk or Barb than with my Wizard or Demon Hunter. Given the game as it is, that 30% extra damage taken makes no sense and just makes certain packs more frustrating.
  • #36
    Quote from PsiStorm


    For some reason - definitely not because they're forced to tank with their faces the majority of the time


    Yes, because clearly between Jailer, Fast, Teleportation, Mortar and Vortex and a plethora of mobs that have one of those as an inherent ability, ranged classes are not taking almost as much hits regardless.

    Also, Monks and Barbs both have VASTLY superior defensive skills/passives that help them staying alive. Whatever the reason may be, I find it infinately easier to stay alive with my Monk or Barb than with my Wizard or Demon Hunter. Given the game as it is, that 30% extra damage taken makes no sense and just makes certain packs more frustrating.


    If you're taking as many hits as a melee with your ranged class (unless specifically building a melee-style talent selection), you're doing it wrong; or more probably, relying on hyperbole to make a point that doesn't exist.

    As someone who plays both a DH and Barbarian in Act 3+ Inferno, I call BS.
  • #37
    Quote from PsiStorm

    Do you even play the game?

    Venom Hydra is by a LARGE margin the biggest DPS component of kiting builds.

    Also, why your thread title is correct your reasoning is a bunch of crap, You know elite champs kill build diversity? It's because they kill you in under 5 hits no matter how good your gear is. This fact makes the following builds possible:

    If you die in 5 hits then you're playing a glass cannon. Of course Hydra will be more effective if you only buff your damage. My statement is that it should also be viable (though less potent, of course) even if you don't.
    And I've found that stacking 70% armor and Resist All along with at least 40K life makes it possible to survive most attacks without using some crazy skill combo. All I need is Energy Armor. The rest is just crowd control and damagers.

    Quote from PsiStorm

    Who cares if Disintegrate will suddenly do 400% weapon damage? It's not like you can stand there and channel it.
    .
    Oh, I know I would. With great delight. :) And a Diamond Skin with Prism like I use to in Hell difficulty.
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  • #38
    [double post] again.... I keep mixing up Edit for Quote....
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  • #39
    Who cares about build diversity? If you're enjoying the game, then so be it.
    When I grow up, I want to be a frill-necked lizard.
  • #40
    Quote from MCMXCIX

    Who cares about build diversity? If you're enjoying the game, then so be it.

    I'd enjoy it even more if I felt I wasn't forced into a set of build templates. I'd imagine a lot of other people would as well. Hence the desire for change.
    Trust me, I'm a bunny brain-surgeon from space!
  • #41
    Quote from Rade
    How Inferno champion packs kill build diversity


    Actually, the NV Buff kills the build diversity...

    You switch your Skills around = Buff gone = No Loot = boring Game.

    Until this gets changed, we are all stuck with some sort of Cookie cutter "all purpose" Builds.
    Which to be honest...is quite retarded.
  • #42
    Quote from Xenocow

    Actually, the NV Buff kills the build diversity...

    You switch your Skills around = Buff gone = No Loot = boring Game.

    Until this gets changed, we are all stuck with some sort of Cookie cutter "all purpose" Builds.
    Which to be honest...is quite retarded.

    The way I see it, removing the NV restriction wouldn't solve anything. In fact, it would only make things worse. Everyone would be using all of the template builds for each class instead of choosing just one.
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