How Inferno champion packs kill build diversity

  • #1
    Ok, so I think most people will agree that playing Diablo 3 = fighting Inferno champion packs. And Blizzard once promised us that we'd be able use any skills we like to play the game. As I've found, those two pieces just don't fit together, for the following reasons:

    1. All you can snare is hot air - snares just don't work on Inferno champions. The slowdown isn't even noticeable with the naked eye until you bring the skill up to something crazy like 80% movement reduction. Also, control impairing effects such as Stun and Freeze appear to have their durations slashed by half. That's why most champion fights end up being these crazy dances.

    2. Fixed damage reduction - if you try out many different skills and pay close attention to the actual amount of damage that you deal with them, you'll notice a clear trend: skills that deal a low percentage (20-60%) of your weapon's damage seem to deal barely any damage at all. And the reason for this is that the damage resistance on mobs is fixed, i.e. any time you would deal damage the same number is subtracted from it. In my experience this results in a rather awkward discrepancy where skills that claim to deal 3 times less damage (f.e. from 105% to 35%) end up actually dealing 10 (!) times less, rendering them completely useless. Skills and runes that suffer from this are those that have a high rate of attack, have additional "side-effect" damage bursts, are damage-over-time abilities or deal their total damage in several quick hits (like Spectral Blade).

    These two factors make around one third of all abilities, both active and passive, unusable. So if Blizzard wants to fix the issue of people never using some skills, THIS, IMO, is where they should start.
    Who's noticed the same and agrees?
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  • #2
    1. Working as intended.

    2. Low weapon damage does not mean low damage in general. Do the math/use spreadsheets or calculators.

    3. Patch 1.0.4 should have some skill changes in order to improve build diversity.
    Bandyto#2350
    EU
  • #3

    3. Patch 1.0.4 should have some skill changes in order to improve build diversity.

    Here's hoping.
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  • #4

    And Blizzard once promised us that we'd be able use any skills we like to play the game.


    The game as they refers to is normal, nightmare, and hell. inferno is just the extra "hardcore" difficulty put in there to "satisfie" the "better" gamer.

    in hell you can pretty much roll around with any skills of your choice and have a really fun time. the only problem is that there is almost no reward for doing it.

    im not aware of any monsters preventing damage other than block.
    some had resistances to certain elemental damage, and it got removed.

    also all the skill balance was pretty much rushed as the new and final system was put inplace just a few months before release, except to see alot of skill changes in patch 1.0.4 hopfully and alot more in patch 1.1
  • #5

    im not aware of any monsters preventing damage other than block.
    some had resistances to certain elemental damage, and it got removed.

    If you haven't already, turn on damage indicators on opponents. Then compare the real damage dealt by a 40% skill and a 100%. In my experience the difference was between 1500-2000 and 8000-10000 (for a 13k dps character). So the supposed "40%" ended up actually dealing closer to 19% damage. This effect becomes the more noticeable the smaller the percentage. The only logical conclusion is that the same flat number is being cut off in both cases. After some calculating I estimate that number to be around 1400 for Act I Inferno starting mobs, higher for Act II.


    also all the skill balance was pretty much rushed as the new and final system was put inplace just a few months before release, except to see alot of skill changes in patch 1.0.4 hopfully and alot more in patch 1.1

    Let's hope this issue is resolved, or at least abated.
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  • #6
    Could u just do your homework before complaining ?

    1. Working as intended and any type of cc/stun/snare/root/lifeLEACH is reduced by % on inferno [75% if i`m not mistaking]. So your 2s stun is actually ... do the math, only 25% of actual duration. And there are actually valid stun/lock builds out there with the propper gear. You can play ur toon as u wish, nobody forces u to take anything. It will be much harder, u'll die more often, some packs will be impossible but that doesn`t mean everyone is forced into cookie cutter builds.

    2. Again read the abilities and monster type. Damage reduction works on mobs the same way as players. Some take greatly reduced damage from certain spell types, or some just have high defense and monsteres in inferno A1+ are just higher lvl than you.
    About the % weap damage, perhaps there are some bugged skills/runes that are not working as they are supposed to but just an example cyclone monks: a huge part of theyr damage 50-70% is entirely made by that skill which deals only 20% of weapon dmg.
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  • #7

    1. Working as intended and any type of cc/stun/snare/root/lifeLEACH is reduced by % on inferno [75% if i`m not mistaking]. So your 2s stun is actually ... do the math, only 25% of actual duration.

    Which means there is no reason to use those skills unless you completely devote to a specific build. Build diversity demands that they be useful in any build :|


    ...It will be much harder, u'll die more often, some packs will be impossible...

    Yes, that's what we mean when we say "not viable" and "unusable" :).


    About the % weap damage, perhaps there are some bugged skills/runes that are not working as they are supposed to but just an example cyclone monks: a huge part of theyr damage 50-70% is entirely made by that skill which deals only 20% of weapon dmg.

    I don't know, if it were a bug I figured they would have fixed it by now. I'm just basing this off of my own observations. Of how using certain skills feels like your trying to tickle opponents to death.
    Trust me, I'm a bunny brain-surgeon from space!
  • #8
    Anyone who disagrees with the premise probably hasn't made it to Inferno yet.

    The equation is pretty simple...

    1) The strength disparity between champs and white mobs is massive.

    2) If you have the gear to kill champions effectively, it's almost meaningless what you do vs white mobs.

    3) Any build that's based around killing white mobs more effectively (AoE mainly) is pretty much unusable.

    Of course Blizzard has already made it so that creating builds isn't really a part of D3. There's not much of a theorycrafting element. But these mechanics make it even more cookie cutter.

    It's not even like a build "might" be good with certain gear. There are clearly defined builds for every class because some skills / passives are obviously better against champs.
  • #9


    1. Working as intended and any type of cc/stun/snare/root/lifeLEACH is reduced by % on inferno [75% if i`m not mistaking]. So your 2s stun is actually ... do the math, only 25% of actual duration.

    Which means there is no reason to use those skills unless you completely devote to a specific build. Build diversity demands that they be useful in any build :|


    ...It will be much harder, u'll die more often, some packs will be impossible...

    Yes, that's what we mean when we say "not viable" and "unusable" :).


    About the % weap damage, perhaps there are some bugged skills/runes that are not working as they are supposed to but just an example cyclone monks: a huge part of theyr damage 50-70% is entirely made by that skill which deals only 20% of weapon dmg.

    I don't know, if it were a bug I figured they would have fixed it by now. I'm just basing this off of my own observations. Of how using certain skills feels like your trying to tickle opponents to death.


    Could you post something about your class/spec?
    Basic example:
    Spell A. 10k dmg - casttime: 1s
    Spell B. 4k dmg - casttime: 0.4s
    You see how that math adds up? Cast-times are ofc totally random in my example, but I can't stop wondering if you maybe see more "small numbers" compared to big? Like maybe 2.5x as many 4k-numbers as 10k-numbers when you change spec?

    Ofc there are specs you just can not get to work - like building a wizard with pure defensive skills(i.e.: diamond skin, teleport, force armor, mirror image, time warp and magic weapon), so a part of the game is also figuring out what works and what doesn't. I play a wizard thus I'm obviously inclined to inspect more wizards, and I've yet to see two wizards with the same build(except wicked-wind melee-build, but that's probably only because it has been quite hyped lately).
  • #10

    Could you post something about your class/spec?
    Basic example:
    Spell A. 10k dmg - casttime: 1s
    Spell B. 4k dmg - casttime: 0.4s


    I already switched up my build (for obvious reasons) so these are just what sticks out in my head:
    Wizard
    13.4k DPS, no passives or actives that alter damage
    1.4 attacks per second (using a wand)
    Arcane Orb (Tap the Source rune): 12k - 18k damage per hit, about 1.4 attacks per second
    Shock Pulse (Piercing Orb rune): 8K-10K per hit, about 1.4 attacks per second
    Electrocute (Lightning Blast rune): 4k-6k damage per hit, about 2.2 attacks per second
    Blizzard (Snowbound rune): 1K-2K damage each second (for a total of 9K, a far cry from the promised 210%)
    Temporal Flux - no effect on champions
    Slow Time - no effect unless you use the Time Shell rune
    Trust me, I'm a bunny brain-surgeon from space!
  • #11
    > complaining about build diversity
    > complaining about some packs unkillable with certain builds
    > having 13.4k dps unbuffed
    > mfw

    Bandyto#2350
    EU
  • #12

    > complaining about build diversity
    > complaining about some packs unkillable with certain builds
    > having 13.4k dps unbuffed
    > mfw

    So you're saying that glass cannon is the only way to go? How is that considered build diversity?
    Also think of people fresh in Inferno, who do not yet have a lvl 60+ weapon (and don't want to use the AH, a common complaint)
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  • #14
    Farming better gear is the way to go.
    Farming matching gear for certain builds is the way to go.
    Bandyto#2350
    EU
  • #15
    If you are too weak then play in lower acts. You are not supposed to be clearing Act3 with your 14k dps.

    There is build diversity but only when you are strong enough. When you are playing in Act which is already very hard for you then ofc you are very limited in your skill selection, but if you gear is good then you have many choices.

    As an example take a barb with high res and like 80k dps. You can put any skills you want on it and he will succeed because he got good gear.
    You should never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
  • #16

    Farming better gear is the way to go.
    Farming matching gear for certain builds is the way to go.

    I know. But farming is in and of itself playing the game. I doubt that people like having to use builds that aren't their own for months on end just so they can finally use their own build again when the game is essentially over (they will probably have passed Inferno by then with the more efficient skills).
    Trust me, I'm a bunny brain-surgeon from space!
  • #18

    I already switched up my build (for obvious reasons) so these are just what sticks out in my head:
    Wizard
    13.4k DPS, no passives or actives that alter damage
    1.4 attacks per second (using a wand)
    Arcane Orb (Tap the Source rune): 12k - 18k damage per hit, about 1.4 attacks per second
    Shock Pulse (Piercing Orb rune): 8K-10K per hit, about 1.4 attacks per second
    Electrocute (Lightning Blast rune): 4k-6k damage per hit, about 2.2 attacks per second
    Blizzard (Snowbound rune): 1K-2K damage each second (for a total of 9K, a far cry from the promised 210%)
    Temporal Flux - no effect on champions
    Slow Time - no effect unless you use the Time Shell rune


    But this looks quite right...

    Blizzard - how many ticks do you get from one blizzard? You cast one spell(1 cast-animation) - do you expect it to tick for 12-18k with 5-6 ticks? It's an aoe-spell with a frost component, so the spell should give less dmg that Arcane Orb(frost + cold-passive vs arcane + slow passive). Not sure but as I recall you get around 5-6 ticks (if you hit the mob for the full duration). That's around max 12k dmg with the numbers you posted. Isn't that viable when you get a "free" slow with it?
    If you are "lacking" dps, then go for Cold Blooded as well - your spec isn't aiming towards tanking anyway, so not sure what passive you would rather have...

    Piercing Orb - no, piercing orb shouldn't give the same dmg as Arcane Orb. It's a signature-spell that doesn't cost Arcane Power(and pretty OP imo). Same goes for Electrocute.

    IF fixed dmg-reduction was actually correct, then why have blizz/venomhydra been such a popular spec among a lot of wizards? Both spells get their power from multiple small hits.

    I'm not quite sure where you currently are in your progression, but when I had 14k I was fighting hard to get a fluid act1 inferno run. I joined pugs until I reached 20-25k dps, then it became a lot easier. 100k dps is far from needed if you have some support-stats that enables you to play differently than kite or be killed. Currently I'm doing mf-runs in act1Inf with ~20k dps and wicked wind melee-build. 250mf without NV but I also have around 700 Resist All, 25% crit chance, 20 AP on crit and 600LoH. This enables me to run through all trash and just search for elites - tanking while standing in plagued/desecrator/arcanes. This isn't an attempt to show off(cause my gear isn't that good) but just to tell you that survival becomes a valid playstyle when you have decent gear.
    Glass Cannon isn't the only way to go, but you have a semi-glasscannon spec. At least you don't have any defensive spells (slow time is imo pretty weak unless used for a gimmick-archonbuild or in a grp with proper dps - the slow-portion is at least not very good).

    But honestly my best advice (if you insist on playing inferno) would be to just join act1 pugs and farm some better gear. Even though top-items won't drop that often, it should be quite possible for you to find some upgrades.

    PS: Are you on EU or US?
  • #19
    Characters skills should have been designed to fight elites, they've just been designed to fulfill designers fantasies, /thread.
  • #20

    But this looks quite right...

    Blizzard - how many ticks do you get from one blizzard? You cast one spell(1 cast-animation) - do you expect it to tick for 12-18k with 5-6 ticks? It's an aoe-spell with a frost component, so the spell should give less dmg that Arcane Orb(frost + cold-passive vs arcane + slow passive). Not sure but as I recall you get around 5-6 ticks (if you hit the mob for the full duration). That's around max 12k dmg with the numbers you posted. Isn't that viable when you get a "free" slow with it?

    Except that the slow is non-existant for elites :) So you end up spending 6 seconds dealing less damage than a single Arcane Orb for more cost. Which is why noone has any reason to use it. And that is bad.
    And you're missing the point. I'm not complaining about my character's efficacy in Inferno (I'm already in Act 2, BTW), I'm pointing out issues Blizzard should address if they want greater build diversity.


    PS: Are you on EU or US?

    EU


    Characters skills should have been designed to fight elites, they've just been designed to fulfill designers fantasies, /thread.

    No, they were designed for Normal difficulty. And Blizzard admitted that they need to be fixed for them to be used in Inferno.
    Trust me, I'm a bunny brain-surgeon from space!
  • #21
    There's really only one class with almost no build diversity prior to having top-shelf gear and that's the WD, which blizzard is addressing next patch.

    There are skills/runes in every class that need work, some more than others, but I think for the most part every class (again, exception for the wd) has a handful of inferno viable builds that don't requite you to hit high benchmark stats. My monk is wearing less than a mil worth of gear and progressing using two different builds, with quite a few more to try. My barb has cleared up to the beginning of act4 and can comfortably farm most of a3 with at least half a dozen different setups.
  • #22

    ..., but I think for the most part every class (again, exception for the wd) has a handful of inferno viable builds that don't requite you to hit high benchmark stats.

    Don't you feel it should be more than just a handful?
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