Because when the "Landgrab" happend when the game started it was all gobbled up by bots and exploiters, if you didnt get in then, your ceiling of success is possibly limited. Im not a socialist and im pro-capitalisim, but not unmitigated or unregulated in nature. Im also OK with AH flipping, but theres something to be said of the model of you activly searching and killing mobs via effort and labor for a gold reward or an item to AH, versus using your pile of exploited capital to flip and flip and flip via bots with no real labor or time invested, or at least from a human perspective.
I'm ardently opposed to botting, a very common practice. Sure, there should be something done about just out of principle, but what typically occurs is that the software company contrives methods of dealing with bots by imposing rules/limitations/regulations that hurt the legit player.
Typical response (as was done in Guild Wars)....nerf the gold and item drops. This does cut down on what the bots can collect. But it also cuts down on what legit players can collect. So......the botters still get more than the legit players, so what was gained?
Per the AH; I have no issue with Blizz imposing rules that hobble overtly gross amounts of transactions. So long as they do so in a way that doesn't hurt the legit traders. The problem being, many legit traders do, in fact, complete a gross amount of transactions in a given week.
And in the same spirit, my only problem with AH Barons is the effect they have on how I play the game.
Items would not be posted for 1 billion gold if there wasn't a potential buyer. That kind of inflation comes from either bots OR flip after flip after flip, etc.
I love having options. I like that someone who doesn't want to kill mobs might like another aspect of the game. The mobs I kill should not negatively effect another player. The economy game should not effect me so negatively.
If it wasn't for the massively negative effect it has on my experience, I could care less what others do.
And in the same spirit, my only problem with AH Barons is the effect they have on how I play the game.
Items would not be posted for 1 billion gold if there wasn't a potential buyer. That kind of inflation comes from either bots OR flip after flip after flip, etc.
Conversely, it could be said that you do benefit from this. If you find a top tier item, something truly extraordinary, than you just made untold riches off of one transaction from one of these obscenely rich "barons".
The economy being exploited with such fervor is very much the same as in real-life capitalism. All values are reciprocal, all opportunity is reciprocal.
Nothing is going to stop the AH barons.
Any rules you put up they will just work around and it will end up hurting normal players more then them.
What is going on right now is mudflation.
Look at the many guides of people clearing inferno with less then 1 mil gold.
This economy will continually devalue mediocre gear while the 6 property god items are going to go sky high when one of those barons wants an upgrade or a new skill / build gets buffed/nerfed.
I've yet to go 10 runs through act 1 with 300 + mf without finding an upgrade.
I'm not sure how many people ground out AA in EQ or ground out pvp items in wow when it was first implemented
Diablo 3 is extremely rewarding in comparison.
I just wish they had left the levels in, I miss the AA feel of out lvling the content.
Well, my problem with item flipping is, that it is a much shorter road to victory. Shorter as in New York - Boston directly than, say, via Munich. This takes away my incentive to go out and kill monsters, because I like to be effective -and launching a real game of Diablo isn't. If I want to improve in my monster killing, I have to go out of the way and work the ah, but what for? So I "waste" less time actually playing instead of being in the ah?
Diablo is a nice game all in all, but progressing faster by playing less is a horrible design flaw.
Well, my problem with item flipping is, that it is a much shorter road to victory. Shorter as in New York - Boston directly than, say, via Munich. This takes away my incentive to go out and kill monsters, because I like to be effective -and launching a real game of Diablo isn't. If I want to improve in my monster killing, I have to go out of the way and work the ah, but what for? So I "waste" less time actually playing instead of being in the ah?
Diablo is a nice game all in all, but progressing faster by playing less is a horrible design flaw.
Yes and no. You have to remember that in D2 there was no AH. So instead of looking on the AH for an upgrade, you had to sift through the Trade channel. This meant dealing with a lot of obnoxious people and countless scammers. I'll still take this system over that old system any day. Odds are you are going to be able to get a lot better gear through this system for much cheaper, then the previous trade chat/forums system. Even if it means I'm paying a little more because I missed an item before someone else and they flipped it for double what I could have gotten it for. Most the time you never know if its a first time listing or a relisted item anyway.
Well, my problem with item flipping is, that it is a much shorter road to victory. Shorter as in New York - Boston directly than, say, via Munich. This takes away my incentive to go out and kill monsters, because I like to be effective -and launching a real game of Diablo isn't. If I want to improve in my monster killing, I have to go out of the way and work the ah, but what for? So I "waste" less time actually playing instead of being in the ah?
Diablo is a nice game all in all, but progressing faster by playing less is a horrible design flaw.
Yes and no. You have to remember that in D2 there was no AH. So instead of looking on the AH for an upgrade, you had to sift through the Trade channel. This meant dealing with a lot of obnoxious people and countless scammers. I'll still take this system over that old system any day. Odds are you are going to be able to get a lot better gear through this system for much cheaper, then the previous trade chat/forums system. Even if it means I'm paying a little more because I missed an item before someone else and they flipped it for double what I could have gotten it for. Most the time you never know if its a first time listing or a relisted item anyway.
Good point.
I would also add that "flipping" in D2 often meant duping the same godly item a hundred times and selling it to unwary victims.
The only reason wealth in WoW does not = in game power directly is because of the BoP system.
You can't buy the items that make you a better raider - gear wise for the most part. You have to kill the mobs youself to get the loot.
Not anymore, but back in Vanilla and BC, crafted items often were used through end game. So yes things you raided with were bought, either on the AH directly or through mats. This game isn't WoW though, and I really dislike them constantly being compared. The loot system is different, the end game is different, the AH/economy is different.
They shouldn't be the same, and as others have pointed out earier in this thread that is what a lot of people use as a baseline in creating more restrictions within this AH system. Like I said before as well, there are no mods in D3, and unless people are botting (aka cheating) then working this system actually takes a fair amount of work and time to do well at. I don't see a point in punishing people for that.
versus using your pile of exploited capital to flip and flip and flip via bots with no real labor or time invested, or at least from a human perspective.
So? Don't buy obviously overpriced items. The market will work itself out. It's all just pixels and 1's and 0's anyways.
And in the same spirit, my only problem with AH Barons is the effect they have on how I play the game.
Items would not be posted for 1 billion gold if there wasn't a potential buyer. That kind of inflation comes from either bots OR flip after flip after flip, etc.
Conversely, it could be said that you do benefit from this. If you find a top tier item, something truly extraordinary, than you just made untold riches off of one transaction from one of these obscenely rich "barons".
The economy being exploited with such fervor is very much the same as in real-life capitalism. All values are reciprocal, all opportunity is reciprocal.
So...if you win the lottery, you get catapulted into the haves instead of languishing with the have nots?
Sorry, I know that is an exaggeration. One item will not get you all the way into the "haves" and doesn't mean anything for long term wealth etc. But it still seems like bad design. One group has a ton of control over the game experience of the other but it's not reciprocal. Not realistically. Those "top tier" items are rare enough, it's unlikely for any one specific (me or you) person to ever find one. Additionally, the odds of these being found are in favor of the AH Barons because their wealth allowed them better gear/mf.
Look at the many guides of people clearing inferno with less then 1 mil gold.
This economy will continually devalue mediocre gear while the 6 property god items are going to go sky high when one of those barons wants an upgrade or a new skill / build gets buffed/nerfed.
I don't think this is as common as you think. Yes there are guides, but they are done by people in the "haves" group and I haven't seen much indication that they actually clear the game with these. As far as I know, they are parking most elites etc to get to a Diablo fight that is frequently easier than actually clearing Act 4. Also, these guides effect the cost of the builds. I watched several this week that I liked and attempting some of the same tricks got me half way through Act 2 when I was stuck at the beginning. However, some of the specific gear they used is double what it was just because of the popularity of these guides.
I've yet to go 10 runs through act 1 with 300 + mf without finding an upgrade.
I'm not sure how many people ground out AA in EQ or ground out pvp items in wow when it was first implemented
Diablo 3 is extremely rewarding in comparison.
I just wish they had left the levels in, I miss the AA feel of out lvling the content.
300 mf and able to clear any Inferno Act, except MAYBE Act 1, is not the sub 1 million gear. Apples and oranges. And I agree, I think a good ARPG makes you feel powerful over time. I'm just not feeling that progression at all without heavy reliance on the AH, which means the AH Barons.
Well, my problem with item flipping is, that it is a much shorter road to victory. Shorter as in New York - Boston directly than, say, via Munich. This takes away my incentive to go out and kill monsters, because I like to be effective -and launching a real game of Diablo isn't. If I want to improve in my monster killing, I have to go out of the way and work the ah, but what for? So I "waste" less time actually playing instead of being in the ah?
Diablo is a nice game all in all, but progressing faster by playing less is a horrible design flaw.
No, it's not a much shorter road to victory. You have to invest a sizable amount of time to observe the market and learn the prices, you need to come up with the budget for buying the items, factor in the AH cut, and take the risk of the item maybe not selling.
I seriously doubt that the flipping affects item prices by much. In the end someone has to buy it. A lot of people looking for underpriced items does affect the chance of finding a good deal, but well, that's life. It still comes down to how much time you are willing to spend on the AH searching for a low priced item, as opposed to just buying the first item that satisfies your requirements.
So, now that minutes are a "sizable amount of time", how'd you name the time frame to find a 20 million item ingame? On average that's a tiny little bit longer than it takes a monkey to figure out the ah.
So, now that minutes are a "sizable amount of time", how'd you name the time frame to find a 20 million item ingame? On average that's a tiny little bit longer than it takes a monkey to figure out the ah.
Remove AH = People will then barter and trade to get better items, what took minutes before now takes an hour. The design is fine, just don’t upset that you don’t or can’t use the AH. FYI AH flipping takes much longer than minutes. A monkey can press a mouse button to kill things and get a lucky drop, interesting concept.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing Diablo since 97. I know nothing and having nothing good to say, I be a troll.
Well, my problem with item flipping is, that it is a much shorter road to victory. Shorter as in New York - Boston directly than, say, via Munich. This takes away my incentive to go out and kill monsters, because I like to be effective -and launching a real game of Diablo isn't. If I want to improve in my monster killing, I have to go out of the way and work the ah, but what for? So I "waste" less time actually playing instead of being in the ah?
Diablo is a nice game all in all, but progressing faster by playing less is a horrible design flaw.
No, it's not a much shorter road to victory. You have to invest a sizable amount of time to observe the market and learn the prices, you need to come up with the budget for buying the items, factor in the AH cut, and take the risk of the item maybe not selling.
I seriously doubt that the flipping affects item prices by much. In the end someone has to buy it. A lot of people looking for underpriced items does affect the chance of finding a good deal, but well, that's life. It still comes down to how much time you are willing to spend on the AH searching for a low priced item, as opposed to just buying the first item that satisfies your requirements.
So, now that minutes are a "sizable amount of time", how'd you name the time frame to find a 20 million item ingame? On average that's a tiny little bit longer than it takes a monkey to figure out the ah.
20mil in markup profit is also quite rare, and aside from the luck of catching it you need knowledge to even recognize it, price it again, and patience to keep it going.
I won't say that it's harder to play the AH than say act3/4 on less-than-amazing gear, but it's certainly not trivially easy. I think most players would loose more trying it.
So...if you win the lottery, you get catapulted into the haves instead of languishing with the have nots?
Sorry, I know that is an exaggeration. One item will not get you all the way into the "haves" and doesn't mean anything for long term wealth etc. But it still seems like bad design. One group has a ton of control over the game experience of the other but it's not reciprocal. Not realistically. Those "top tier" items are rare enough, it's unlikely for any one specific (me or you) person to ever find one. Additionally, the odds of these being found are in favor of the AH Barons because their wealth allowed them better gear/mf.
No different than if you find an amazing item and sell it for X gold, or equip it, or whatever.
At the end of the day, 200 million gold is 200 million gold regardless of if it came from flipping items on the GAH or if you ran Act 1 with like +400% GF, or if you've been finding good gear.
My current main hand cost me a whole 100k. It probably should have cost me at least 1 million. Doesn't finding a steal on the AH and equipping it equate to the same thing as flipping it? At the end of the day I saved myself at least 900k gold on that deal. I increased my power proportionally more based on my investment than I should have been able to at average market values.
I don't see how immediately liquidating your investment is somehow more detrimental to the game than finding the item and equipping it immediately. Either way, you've bought something below market value, grats to you, you're smart and probably have more patience than the average bear.
This implies you're better/smarter than most players, which is a very bold assumption.
There's nothing difficult in trading. I think the main reason why so many players still prefer farming mobs instead of farming AH is because they believe that playing AH is hard, so they don't even try. Also, some people have the "I don't want to play an economy sim in D3" mentality.
Anyway, this also means there's no real reason to penalize AH-players, because literally everyone can do what we do.
This implies you're better/smarter than most players, which is a very bold assumption.
There's nothing difficult in trading. I think the main reason why so many players still prefer farming mobs instead of farming AH is because they believe that playing AH is hard, so they don't even try. Also, some people have the "I don't want to play an economy sim in D3" mentality.
Anyway, this also means there's no real reason to penalize AH-players, because literally everyone can do what we do.
I think the main issue is its boring compared to farming. It’s not hard but tedious, lots of searching
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing Diablo since 97. I know nothing and having nothing good to say, I be a troll.
This implies you're better/smarter than most players, which is a very bold assumption.
There's nothing difficult in trading. I think the main reason why so many players still prefer farming mobs instead of farming AH is because they believe that playing AH is hard, so they don't even try. Also, some people have the "I don't want to play an economy sim in D3" mentality.
Anyway, this also means there's no real reason to penalize AH-players, because literally everyone can do what we do.
Except for that last sentence, I have to agree. And it seems, people posting how hard it is, only intent to protect their claims.
That "I don't want to play an eco sim" factor is the most important thing here. It may be fun to some, but I'd say most people would rather play the real game without being punished for it. Punished by getting less ingame rewards than they would have gotten otherwise in the same amount of time. So there is a very big reason to change the game in favor of monster killers. Because, last time I checked, Diablo was supposed to be about "click on the monster until it dies, pick up items, equip them if they're better than what you had before". It is no longer.
I'm ardently opposed to botting, a very common practice. Sure, there should be something done about just out of principle, but what typically occurs is that the software company contrives methods of dealing with bots by imposing rules/limitations/regulations that hurt the legit player.
Typical response (as was done in Guild Wars)....nerf the gold and item drops. This does cut down on what the bots can collect. But it also cuts down on what legit players can collect. So......the botters still get more than the legit players, so what was gained?
Per the AH; I have no issue with Blizz imposing rules that hobble overtly gross amounts of transactions. So long as they do so in a way that doesn't hurt the legit traders. The problem being, many legit traders do, in fact, complete a gross amount of transactions in a given week.
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC) Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan
Items would not be posted for 1 billion gold if there wasn't a potential buyer. That kind of inflation comes from either bots OR flip after flip after flip, etc.
I love having options. I like that someone who doesn't want to kill mobs might like another aspect of the game. The mobs I kill should not negatively effect another player. The economy game should not effect me so negatively.
If it wasn't for the massively negative effect it has on my experience, I could care less what others do.
Conversely, it could be said that you do benefit from this. If you find a top tier item, something truly extraordinary, than you just made untold riches off of one transaction from one of these obscenely rich "barons".
The economy being exploited with such fervor is very much the same as in real-life capitalism. All values are reciprocal, all opportunity is reciprocal.
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC) Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan
Any rules you put up they will just work around and it will end up hurting normal players more then them.
What is going on right now is mudflation.
Look at the many guides of people clearing inferno with less then 1 mil gold.
This economy will continually devalue mediocre gear while the 6 property god items are going to go sky high when one of those barons wants an upgrade or a new skill / build gets buffed/nerfed.
I've yet to go 10 runs through act 1 with 300 + mf without finding an upgrade.
I'm not sure how many people ground out AA in EQ or ground out pvp items in wow when it was first implemented
Diablo 3 is extremely rewarding in comparison.
I just wish they had left the levels in, I miss the AA feel of out lvling the content.
Diablo is a nice game all in all, but progressing faster by playing less is a horrible design flaw.
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Sol77-2972/hero/66110450
Yes and no. You have to remember that in D2 there was no AH. So instead of looking on the AH for an upgrade, you had to sift through the Trade channel. This meant dealing with a lot of obnoxious people and countless scammers. I'll still take this system over that old system any day. Odds are you are going to be able to get a lot better gear through this system for much cheaper, then the previous trade chat/forums system. Even if it means I'm paying a little more because I missed an item before someone else and they flipped it for double what I could have gotten it for. Most the time you never know if its a first time listing or a relisted item anyway.
Good point.
I would also add that "flipping" in D2 often meant duping the same godly item a hundred times and selling it to unwary victims.
BurningRope#1322 (US~HC) Request an invite to the official (NA) <dfans> Clan
You can't buy the items that make you a better raider - gear wise for the most part. You have to kill the mobs youself to get the loot.
I'm sure a AH baron can afford to buy multiple accounts; there goes your safety measure.
Not anymore, but back in Vanilla and BC, crafted items often were used through end game. So yes things you raided with were bought, either on the AH directly or through mats. This game isn't WoW though, and I really dislike them constantly being compared. The loot system is different, the end game is different, the AH/economy is different.
They shouldn't be the same, and as others have pointed out earier in this thread that is what a lot of people use as a baseline in creating more restrictions within this AH system. Like I said before as well, there are no mods in D3, and unless people are botting (aka cheating) then working this system actually takes a fair amount of work and time to do well at. I don't see a point in punishing people for that.
So...if you win the lottery, you get catapulted into the haves instead of languishing with the have nots?
Sorry, I know that is an exaggeration. One item will not get you all the way into the "haves" and doesn't mean anything for long term wealth etc. But it still seems like bad design. One group has a ton of control over the game experience of the other but it's not reciprocal. Not realistically. Those "top tier" items are rare enough, it's unlikely for any one specific (me or you) person to ever find one. Additionally, the odds of these being found are in favor of the AH Barons because their wealth allowed them better gear/mf.
So it's just not worth thinking about? The question is meant to be theoretical. Does the practice bother anyone? That kind of thing.
I don't think this is as common as you think. Yes there are guides, but they are done by people in the "haves" group and I haven't seen much indication that they actually clear the game with these. As far as I know, they are parking most elites etc to get to a Diablo fight that is frequently easier than actually clearing Act 4. Also, these guides effect the cost of the builds. I watched several this week that I liked and attempting some of the same tricks got me half way through Act 2 when I was stuck at the beginning. However, some of the specific gear they used is double what it was just because of the popularity of these guides.
300 mf and able to clear any Inferno Act, except MAYBE Act 1, is not the sub 1 million gear. Apples and oranges. And I agree, I think a good ARPG makes you feel powerful over time. I'm just not feeling that progression at all without heavy reliance on the AH, which means the AH Barons.
So, now that minutes are a "sizable amount of time", how'd you name the time frame to find a 20 million item ingame? On average that's a tiny little bit longer than it takes a monkey to figure out the ah.
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Sol77-2972/hero/66110450
Remove AH = People will then barter and trade to get better items, what took minutes before now takes an hour. The design is fine, just don’t upset that you don’t or can’t use the AH. FYI AH flipping takes much longer than minutes. A monkey can press a mouse button to kill things and get a lucky drop, interesting concept.
20mil in markup profit is also quite rare, and aside from the luck of catching it you need knowledge to even recognize it, price it again, and patience to keep it going.
I won't say that it's harder to play the AH than say act3/4 on less-than-amazing gear, but it's certainly not trivially easy. I think most players would loose more trying it.
All right dudes, speed challenge: You start at 1 million gold.
First person to come up with a Natalya Ring wins.
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Sol77-2972/hero/66110450
No different than if you find an amazing item and sell it for X gold, or equip it, or whatever.
At the end of the day, 200 million gold is 200 million gold regardless of if it came from flipping items on the GAH or if you ran Act 1 with like +400% GF, or if you've been finding good gear.
My current main hand cost me a whole 100k. It probably should have cost me at least 1 million. Doesn't finding a steal on the AH and equipping it equate to the same thing as flipping it? At the end of the day I saved myself at least 900k gold on that deal. I increased my power proportionally more based on my investment than I should have been able to at average market values.
I don't see how immediately liquidating your investment is somehow more detrimental to the game than finding the item and equipping it immediately. Either way, you've bought something below market value, grats to you, you're smart and probably have more patience than the average bear.
There's nothing difficult in trading. I think the main reason why so many players still prefer farming mobs instead of farming AH is because they believe that playing AH is hard, so they don't even try. Also, some people have the "I don't want to play an economy sim in D3" mentality.
Anyway, this also means there's no real reason to penalize AH-players, because literally everyone can do what we do.
I think the main issue is its boring compared to farming. It’s not hard but tedious, lots of searching
Except for that last sentence, I have to agree. And it seems, people posting how hard it is, only intent to protect their claims.
That "I don't want to play an eco sim" factor is the most important thing here. It may be fun to some, but I'd say most people would rather play the real game without being punished for it. Punished by getting less ingame rewards than they would have gotten otherwise in the same amount of time. So there is a very big reason to change the game in favor of monster killers. Because, last time I checked, Diablo was supposed to be about "click on the monster until it dies, pick up items, equip them if they're better than what you had before". It is no longer.
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Sol77-2972/hero/66110450