100MF Act I or 0MF ACT II? My experience and some simple math

  • #21
    Quote from lorien1973

    Quote from Miv

    A3 > A2 > A1 regardless of how much MF you have (and assuming you have the ability to do each act in a reasonable time).

    This pretty much sums it up.


    It's not that simple. First off, act 2 is slow to farm because there are very few elites that you can count on being in specific locations like you can in act 1. It's a lot more running around. If you have the gear to completely mindlessly crush act 2 I still recommend doing act 1. You're just going to get so many more items per hour that the higher chance of getting ilvl62-63 in a slow act 2 isn't worth it. Also, I can do act 1 in a very high amount of MF gear and still pretty much plow through it. You just have to get good MF gear with stats on it and make good choices on what gear you swap out for MF gear. Doing this will net you a ton of extra rares and will get you some legendaries as well. Note, I don't swap MF gear, I wear it. Doing so gets me a TON of rares off normal mobs.

    I farm act 1 a lot. There are certain points in my routine where I used to portal back to ID and sell. I can say that since I changed to MF gear I've had to modify when I go back. It's a lot earlier now. The million dollar question is time. I have never timed my routine. I think it's about 40 minutes. If running with MF gear adds 10 minutes then I'm not so sure MF is a giant payoff in my specific situation.

    Swapping MF gear is a slowdown too. You're using up bag real estate to carry it which means a lot more trips back. Also, let's be honest, you can call yourself super gamer all you want but opening your bag and swapping everything over and closing is gonna get you killed sometimes. You have to do it early too otherwise you risk killing them too fast. Swap too early and it becomes a slow kill or you get 2 hit and die. Don't get me wrong, swapping MF is efficient if you do it right and quickly but there's nothing wrong with relying on 5 stacks on NV getting you that guaranteed rare on every elite kill and 2 on every boss.
  • #22
    Quote from 07Ghost

    Quote from Bilge

    The simple fact is the monsters in act 1 have so much fewer hitpoints than in higher acts that you will get more i63s / hour farming act 1 than any other act, whether your gear is godly or garbage, or anywhere in between. The percentage drop rate is lower but you get so many more rares per hour in act 1 that it negates the lower drop rate.


    getting so many more rares doesn't mean crap when they're all junks. you only want the ilvl62-63 rares. anything below it is just garbage except for rings and ammys. that's why you want to farm a3 if you can.

    mf does work. however, if you're focusing on mf too much while sacrificing survivability and dps, it's just not worth it.


    Can you read ghost? CAN YOU?Inferno – Act I
    iLvl 61: 23.9%, up from 17.7%
    iLvl 62: 12.6%, up from 7.9%
    iLvl 63: 4.8%, up from 2.0%
    Inferno – Act II
    iLvl 61: 23.3%, up from 18.6%
    iLvl 62: 18.6%, up from 12.4%
    iLvl 63: 9.3%, up from 4.1%

    IF you kill mobs at least TWICE as much per hour, you have equal or better drop rates then A2? ? ? Is that so difficult to understand? wtf is wrong with people!
  • #23
    Quote from cyberrico

    Quote from lorien1973

    Quote from Miv

    A3 > A2 > A1 regardless of how much MF you have (and assuming you have the ability to do each act in a reasonable time).

    This pretty much sums it up.


    It's not that simple. First off, act 2 is slow to farm because there are very few elites that you can count on being in specific locations like you can in act 1. It's a lot more running around. If you have the gear to completely mindlessly crush act 2 I still recommend doing act 1. You're just going to get so many more items per hour that the higher chance of getting ilvl62-63 in a slow act 2 isn't worth it. Also, I can do act 1 in a very high amount of MF gear and still pretty much plow through it. You just have to get good MF gear with stats on it and make good choices on what gear you swap out for MF gear. Doing this will net you a ton of extra rares and will get you some legendaries as well. Note, I don't swap MF gear, I wear it. Doing so gets me a TON of rares off normal mobs.

    I farm act 1 a lot. There are certain points in my routine where I used to portal back to ID and sell. I can say that since I changed to MF gear I've had to modify when I go back. It's a lot earlier now. The million dollar question is time. I have never timed my routine. I think it's about 40 minutes. If running with MF gear adds 10 minutes then I'm not so sure MF is a giant payoff in my specific situation.

    Swapping MF gear is a slowdown too. You're using up bag real estate to carry it which means a lot more trips back. Also, let's be honest, you can call yourself super gamer all you want but opening your bag and swapping everything over and closing is gonna get you killed sometimes. You have to do it early too otherwise you risk killing them too fast. Swap too early and it becomes a slow kill or you get 2 hit and die. Don't get me wrong, swapping MF is efficient if you do it right and quickly but there's nothing wrong with relying on 5 stacks on NV getting you that guaranteed rare on every elite kill and 2 on every boss.


    Act 2 has a lot of elites that you can count on being there. I'm not sure if it's currently bugged or not, but the Forgotten Ruins (where you get 1 out of 2 blood for Zoltun Kulle) has 8-15 Champion/Elite packs in it. Always. I'm farming this dungeon 'till it's completely empty and then head off to Zoltun Kulle and Belial. I do these runs in about 20 minutes, where I on average kill about 10 Champion/Elite packs. I have a full bag with rares in the end, which is about 20-25 rares. This is completely without MF gear.

    So yes, I agree with you. I had a full set (335% MF with 5 stacks), but I found it only worthwhile when farming Goblins. It doesn't work on bosses at all in my experience. To clarify this last statement: I have killed the Assault Siegebreaker with the Barbarian Weapon Throw build with 200% MF (before I entered the room and never took it off!), it only dropped 2 blues, all 5 runs that I tested this. Now the 5 runs isn't that much, but with 200% MF, the loot should've been substantially better than 5 stacks of NV, but by far it wasn't. It was horrible.

    So to all the people who say "I have a feeling that with MF gear I get a lot more rares." or something like that, I wouldn't be so sure until you publish hard numbers. Goblins are the exception, of course.

    Also: gear swapping is (except for Act 1) 99% of the time not an option as melee.
  • #24
    Quote from Ackbarspiff
    by kickass gear i talk about +500 millions worth of gear.

    So for now im sticking to act 2.


    Look for 1mio and 200k gold challenges in these forums :o I am farming A3 no problem with like 5mio worth of gear (WD).
  • #25
    I run 336% MF after Valor in Act 3 and I can clear on average 35 Elite packs, 4 Goblins and two bosses (Cydaea and Azmo) in 45 Minutes, with 7 deaths on average.


    What is your route anyway?
  • #26
    Quote from cyberrico

    It's not that simple. First off, act 2 is slow to farm because there are very few elites that you can count on being in specific locations like
    you can in act 1. It's a lot more running around.


    Anyone saying this does not know how to farm Act 2. All Zoltan Kulle dungeons seem to have a minimum of 5 elites per dungeon, and can have up to 15. These include Forgotten Ruins, Vault of the Assassin, Cave of the Betrayer and both Archive dungeons. I get on avarage around 30 elites while farming Act 2. I know where they are and they are always there in high concentration, making my Act 2 farming just as, if not more, effective as Act 1 in terms of rares per hour. One Act 2 sweep gave me about 1.5 bank tab of rares with 0% MF,

    Something that people don't seem to get is that the first 5 elites are "wasted". They do not give guaranteed rares and they are simply killed to get stacks, you want to have a minimal amount of wasted elites. I would rather do 1 longer run with 5 wasted elites and 25 with NV than 3 runs with 5 wasted elites and 5 with NV.

    Guaranteed spots will give you your NV stacks faster, but you gotta have something to kill with those stacks.
  • #27
    Quote from archonshope

    Quote from 07Ghost

    Quote from Bilge

    The simple fact is the monsters in act 1 have so much fewer hitpoints than in higher acts that you will get more i63s / hour farming act 1 than any other act, whether your gear is godly or garbage, or anywhere in between. The percentage drop rate is lower but you get so many more rares per hour in act 1 that it negates the lower drop rate.


    getting so many more rares doesn't mean crap when they're all junks. you only want the ilvl62-63 rares. anything below it is just garbage except for rings and ammys. that's why you want to farm a3 if you can.

    mf does work. however, if you're focusing on mf too much while sacrificing survivability and dps, it's just not worth it.


    Can you read ghost? CAN YOU?Inferno – Act I
    iLvl 61: 23.9%, up from 17.7%
    iLvl 62: 12.6%, up from 7.9%
    iLvl 63: 4.8%, up from 2.0%
    Inferno – Act II
    iLvl 61: 23.3%, up from 18.6%
    iLvl 62: 18.6%, up from 12.4%
    iLvl 63: 9.3%, up from 4.1%

    IF you kill mobs at least TWICE as much per hour, you have equal or better drop rates then A2? ? ? Is that so difficult to understand? wtf is wrong with people!


    but you don't that's the thing. if you can do that, then you should just do act 3.

    kripp can do a full clear a3 run in 40 mins with his ww barb. if you can do three a1 runs in dat time then it's better otherwise it's just shit and you just better off farming a3.
  • #28
    Quote from plan3s

    I run 336% MF after Valor in Act 3 and I can clear on average 35 Elite packs, 4 Goblins and two bosses (Cydaea and Azmo) in 45 Minutes, with 7 deaths on average.


    What is your route anyway?


    http://www.diablofan...al-farming-run/

    Quote from 07Ghost

    but you don't that's the thing. if you can do that, then you should just do act 3.

    kripp can do a full clear a3 run in 40 mins with his ww barb. if you can do three a1 runs in dat time then it's better otherwise it's just shit and you just better off farming a3.


    I clear what I believe to be the best way for Elite farming in Act 3 in the same time frame as most people who run through all of Act 1. Don't generalize that "Act 1 is better no matter what" cause it isn't.

    There's certain areas in each act that aren't worth bothering with which simply are too long and unrewarding. There seems to be a general assumption that having MF on your gear causes your killing speed to be worse which yes if you're wearing "Magic Find Gear of the Whale" Then yes, it will. I upgraded each of my pieces with Magic find in mind never buying one without it but making sure it was an upgrade and something that would improve kill time, not make it worse.

    Just cause something has Magic Find on it does not make it automatically "less powerful". In addition, just because you don't know where the elites are in another act also doesn't mean "there's less guaranteed elites", Act 1 isn't the only place with a Festering Woods goodness.
  • #29
    Quote from Carpenters

    ...
    Assumptions:

    First I will show some simple math reasoning, which is based on the following assumptions:

    1. Our goal in farming is to get the maximum number of ilvl 62+ RARE+ items while having fun.

    2. MF will not increase the number of items nor the ilvl of items, only the likelihood of this item being blue/rare+.

    3. The chance of getting a rare increase linearly with MF. For example, if you originally have 10% chance getting a rare item, with 100MF you now have 20% chance.
    ...


    This is where you got it wrong, it's not linear. It's slightly exponecial. Having 270% MF is twice as good as having 150% MF. The example below do not count the EXTRA drops from NV5 buff;

    Edit: The table I tried linking got messed up. Click the link below for the original, here is a short sum up:

    0% MF ==> 9.84% R
    150% MF ==> 18.40% R
    270% MF ==> 36.01% R

    Source: http://www.diablofan...stical-insight/
    Notice that you actually get less magical items, not just whites, with higher MF.

    Quote from Miv

    A3 > A2 > A1 regardless of how much MF you have (and assuming you have the ability to do each act in a reasonable time).


    This is very over simplified. Do this instead:

    ( [Number of packs killed / run] x [act chance for 62+ items] x [rare drop rate] x [average MF modifier] + [NV5 Bonus] ) x [FUN] / [time / run] = LOOT

    [Number of packs killed / run] = Self explanatory.
    [act chance for 62+ items] = Fixed values, stated by Blizzard. Also quoted below.
    [rare drop rate] = Also a fixed value, roughly 10%.
    [average MF modifier] = Use the data above to calculate that.
    [NV5 Bonus] = Add 1 rare for every pack you killed times the act chance for 62+.
    [FUN] = It's a GAME people, don't forget to add your fun factor ^^!
    [time / run] = Self explanatory.
    LOOT = Sweet sweet loots you get / time spent

    Quote from Bodycount1

    5 stacks of NV helps make MF useless. Just get 5 stacks and farm the highest act you can do without dying.


    It makes MF less good, not useless. If I was a SC player, I would definitely make a super glass cannon and stack as much MF as I could and design that spec/class to suite a specific act that I like to play and just go pwn some shit.

    Quote from EarlZ088

    Farm the highest act where you can easily steam roll, 0MF or 400MF will not matter what so ever.


    HC players can't "steam roll" any act... 'cept possibly act 1.

    Quote from Mahoraba

    You lost my interest when you said "Blue drops don't matter cause people only want yellows" while your statement holds true about Yellows, Blues are salvage amazingness. Due to your lack of gold or lack of wanting to spend gold on crafting you probably don't actually understand how good crafting really is, why do you think people buy your Exquiste essence when you post it.

    I run 336% MF after Valor in Act 3 and I can clear on average 35 Elite packs, 4 Goblins and two bosses (Cydaea and Azmo) in 45 Minutes, with 7 deaths on average.

    Oh, and by the way i've netted 42 Legendaries, 2 Exalted Grand Sovereign greaves, 1 Exalted Grand Vambraces, Grand Armplates and 2 Grand Chests.

    Edit: 450 Hours of play time.


    You bring up a point that I found interesting. Since you actually get LESS blues with higher MF (at least from packs/goblins, what about normal mobs?). That means less to salvage. Then again you will get more junk yellows as well which gives a lot better salvaging results. But interesting note.

    7 deaths on average... yeah I'm a HC player, so not really following your farming advice ^^

    Quote from Bilge

    The simple fact is the monsters in act 1 have so much fewer hitpoints than in higher acts that you will get more i63s / hour farming act 1 than any other act, whether your gear is godly or garbage, or anywhere in between. The percentage drop rate is lower but you get so many more rares per hour in act 1 that it negates the lower drop rate.

    The clincher is that you can easily stack MF in act 1, while MF will hurt your dps too much for you to effectively do acts 2-4. Gear swapping is temporary, it will be nerfed. Even until then, it takes time, and when we're talking about maxing rares per hour, time is money.

    This is poor game design. This is the new Blizzard. Reel in its stench.


    First bold: True.

    Second bold: Not true. Check some Youtube videos, there are some sickly geared people out there. Sure they could cream through packs in act 1, BUT they don't take that much more time to kill packs in act 3, and since a lot of the time can be spent running around trying to find the packs, it could be better to kill packs that take 1min to kill instead of 30sec if you have to spend 2 min between them just to find them. See formula above.

    Third bold: Not true. It will affect your dps OR survivability. You could still pwn shit fast but have less hp/block/whatever. Or if your dps is high enough for the act you are farming you could nerf that for higher MF.

    Quote from archonshope

    Can you read ghost? CAN YOU?Inferno – Act I
    iLvl 61: 23.9%, up from 17.7%
    iLvl 62: 12.6%, up from 7.9%
    iLvl 63: 4.8%, up from 2.0%
    Inferno – Act II
    iLvl 61: 23.3%, up from 18.6%
    iLvl 62: 18.6%, up from 12.4%
    iLvl 63: 9.3%, up from 4.1%

    IF you kill mobs at least TWICE as much per hour, you have equal or better drop rates then A2? ? ? Is that so difficult to understand? wtf is wrong with people!


    You are forgetting NV5 buff. You need to kill mobs in act 1 LESS then twice as fast to win that battle. But some people are super geared and kill mobs in act 1, 2, 3 almost as fast. See formula above.



    MF is fun for some. Killing mucho mobs is fun for others. Facing a constant challenge is fun for a few.
    Finding kick ass loot if fun for EVERYONE.
    Does it really matter to YOU which road OTHERS take to achieve it? Stop the hate, join the fun ^^
    Winter is coming...
  • #30
    Quote from Mahoraba

    I clear what I believe to be the best way for Elite farming in Act 3 in the same time frame as most people who run through all of Act 1. Don't generalize that "Act 1 is better no matter what" cause it isn't.


    I agree with this, although I run act 2, I one-shot everything in both act 1 and act 2, so there is absolutely no reason for me to head back to act 1.

    Quote from Mahoraba
    There's certain areas in each act that aren't worth bothering with which simply are too long and unrewarding. There seems to be a general assumption that having MF on your gear causes your killing speed to be worse which yes if you're wearing "Magic Find Gear of the Whale" Then yes, it will. I upgraded each of my pieces with Magic find in mind never buying one without it but making sure it was an upgrade and something that would improve kill time, not make it worse.

    Just cause something has Magic Find on it does not make it automatically "less powerful". In addition, just because you don't know where the elites are in another act also doesn't mean "there's less guaranteed elites", Act 1 isn't the only place with a Festering Woods goodness.


    I disagree with this. The item with magic find isn't worse perse, but that item could have had another stat instead of magic find, which would've made it a lot more expensive. But instead of having:

    -100 strength
    -20% magic find
    -70 all resistance
    -60 vitality

    it could've had the following:

    -140 strength
    -70 all resistance
    -60 vitality

    I understand your point of view, that you only upgrade if it's a dps increase AND magic find increase. But items without magic find on them certainly can be better dps/tanking wise.
  • #31
    Quote from Seditiar

    ...
    Also: gear swapping is (except for Act 1) 99% of the time not an option as melee.


    Hehe, this just reminded me of a funny almost death Kungen had while farming Goblins (the 1% where it's an option):
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MT8JUcMQrpc

    HAHAHA, that clip still cracks me up (P.S. Yes it's HC).
    Winter is coming...
  • #32
    Quote from Nausicaa

    You bring up a point that I found interesting. Since you actually get LESS blues with higher MF (at least from packs/goblins, what about normal mobs?). That means less to salvage. Then again you will get more junk yellows as well which gives a lot better salvaging results. But interesting note.

    7 deaths on average... yeah I'm a HC player, so not really following your farming advice ^^


    I count White mobs in the equation even though I might skip killing some white mobs in favor of a quicker run, so yes still more to salvage.

    Also, I'm very reckless which is why I don't play Hardcore and probably why I have 7 deaths on average.
  • #33
    Quote from Nausicaa

    Quote from Seditiar

    ...
    Also: gear swapping is (except for Act 1) 99% of the time not an option as melee.


    Hehe, this just reminded me of a funny almost death Kungen had while farming Goblins (the 1% where it's an option):
    <Snip>

    HAHAHA, that clip still cracks me up (P.S. Yes it's HC).


    Exactly, it is possible. But way too risky, especially on Hardcore. If you die, you lose at least 10 seconds, most of the time 1-2 minutes (depending on how far you have to run to get back to that pack). Those 1-2 minutes could've been used for a new run. I'm not saying it's entirely impossible for melee, but it's a lot more risky than for a ranged class to change gear.
  • #34
    If you really want better gear as fast as possible spend a day at work and then buy it on the rmah.
  • #35
    Quote from Findulidas

    If you really want better gear as fast as possible spend a day at work and then buy it on the rmah.


    You're a funny guy, oh wait you were being serious, you're EVEN more of a funny guy cause of it.
  • #36
    Quote from Carpenters

    So now let's assume you have 30% chance of getting a rare off a champion pack. Then after 10 packs, in average you will have 3 rare items. But if you have 100MF, you will get 6 instead of 3. This seems quite an advantage. However, NV buffs come into play. You will get one guaranteed rare for every pack you kill. With 5 NV and 0MF, you will have 10 + 1.75 * 3 = 15.25 rare items. With 5 NV and 100MF, you will have 10 + 2.75 * 3 = 18.25 rare items. With some RNG, this will hardly be that noticeable.



    That assumption is wrong to my knowledge. Magic Find is NOT the same as Rare Find. They said that Magic Find worked similar to Diablo 2, and in Diablo 2,

    100% Magic Find= 85% Rare Find=83% Set find= 71% Unique Find
    (pulled from Diablo Wiki)

    I don't think D3 uses anywhere near these numbers, but I expect a diminishing effect of Magic Find on Rare Find or Legendary Find. Either way, it works more in favor of Act 2 vs. Act 1 Farming.
  • #37
    Quote from 07Ghost

    Quote from Bilge

    The simple fact is the monsters in act 1 have so much fewer hitpoints than in higher acts that you will get more i63s / hour farming act 1 than any other act, whether your gear is godly or garbage, or anywhere in between. The percentage drop rate is lower but you get so many more rares per hour in act 1 that it negates the lower drop rate.


    getting so many more rares doesn't mean crap when they're all junks. you only want the ilvl62-63 rares. anything below it is just garbage except for rings and ammys. that's why you want to farm a3 if you can.

    mf does work. however, if you're focusing on mf too much while sacrificing survivability and dps, it's just not worth it.

    You don't get what I'm saying. Yes, I know the chance of iLvl 62-63 rares is lower in act 1. What I'm saying is that you get significantly more rares / hour in act 1, which negates the lower drop rate. Even with godly gear, higher act elites have so much health that they simply take longer to kill yielding a lower amount of rares per hour.

    When you add into the equation the fact that you can easily sport a ton of MF in act 1, thus getting even MORE rares per hour, it becomes clear that there is precious little reason to do the higher acts if your goal is getting good gear.

    Btw, an item doesn't have to be 62+ to be good. I have a 61 amulet worth at least 150 million gold, and that's being conservative.

    @ other posters: Yes, there's some godly ass gear out there with high MF on it. It's very costly. For most people, boosting MF will mean a significant drop in dps and survivability.
  • #38
    Quote from Bilge

    Btw, an item doesn't have to be 62+ to be good. I have a 61 amulet worth at least 150 million gold, and that's being conservative.


    Very relevant point, especially with amulets & rings. Well-rolled items are well-rolled items and, generally, anything 61+ has a chance to be something good. Perfect 63s are obviously going to be the best items out there. But, let's not act like great 62s and 61s aren't worthwhile. If all you're looking at is 63s then that's half of the problem.
    66.0k elite kills :: 1.97m total kills :: p244
    Planet Express <PlanEx>
    (V) (°,,°) (V)
  • #39
    Quote from Bilge

    You don't get what I'm saying. Yes, I know the chance of iLvl 62-63 rares is lower in act 1. What I'm saying is that you get significantly more rares / hour in act 1, which negates the lower drop rate. Even with godly gear, higher act elites have so much health that they simply take longer to kill yielding a lower amount of rares per hour.


    Your definition of "Godly" obviously doesn't include the ability to steam roll act 3 the same way that you do Act 1, which is currently the case for me, maybe not other but do not generalize that Act 1 is always better cause its not.

    There is a point in gear that Acts become better to farm. Get over it.
  • #40
    Quote from Trance

    Quote from Bodycount1

    Quote from Mahoraba

    It upsets me when people say this, you truely do not understand/realize how good Magic Find is beyond a 5 stack.


    I have zero MF. After 5 stacks I'm seeing 1-3 yellows drop per champ pack. Mostly 2-3 per pack. Rarely only 1.

    Sure I could spend 10-20 million on GF gear.. or hurry up and switch out gear before the last of the pack dies.. but that seems like work to me. And I play this game for fun, not work.

    I've had 100 base MF before.. and all that netted me was more blues from bosses. Blues don't sell. Everyone wants perfect stat yellows.

    Now i'm slowly working on gold find gear. Only catch is it must be an upgrade or I don't get it. So it's going very slowly. But i'm up to 75% base. Love those 2000 gold drops from whites.


    I don't know what to write really. I can't see how...no.. Your just talking BS with getting "mostly" 2-3 rare with only 75%.
    Since it's already stated that MF = more rare
    Just.. stop it.


    I run with 0MF and get 2 rares probably 80% of the time off elites once I get to 5 stacks. How you gonna call someone a liar? Are you watching them stream or in the same room with them? Hell my best item ever sold came with no stacks and 0 MF. Got a 1k DPS one handed x-bow with crit and a socket off the first pack I saw. RNG is still RNG. MF doesnt make my items I get better so I dont bother with it. That crappy level 55 rare I got was still going to be a crappy level 55 rare even if I had 1000 MF.
  • To post a comment, please or register a new account.
Posts Quoted:
Reply
Clear All Quotes