Gamebreaking Combat Mechanics - Movement Lockout and Weapon Types

  • #1
    The following issue has not had the visability it needs, please help me get this topic out in the open.

    Following links to Blizzard forum posts:

    General Overview (quick read) : http://us.battle.net...ic/5911882086#1

    Bug Report (most detailed) : http://us.battle.net...061483?page=1#0

    Hardcore warning: http://us.battle.net...opic/5912471934

    I do not know how this has not been publicized widely yet; this topic should be at a top priority level.
  • #2
    omfg, they have to fix this, i wont play torchight to this day because attack speed or """DPS"" is BS
    animation speed = attack speed, if you have to wait before you can move again with certain weapons the game is basically LIENG to you about your attack speed, this is un acceptable, they need to fix this before they fix anything about item drops, skills, auction house economy, or anything else, this is just too stupid.
  • #3
    Seriously, i mean wtf is so hard? you have an animation, you ( the team ) decide a certain amount of frames for the animation to be complete, you increase the speed it is played ie your attack speed, wtf is so complicated about this?
    if the animation length is actually longer just make a formula to decide how long it should take to complete it, and speed up the animation accordingly/ apply correct attack speed.
  • #4
    Quote from paroxysm2010

    they need to fix this before they fix anything about item drops, skills, auction house economy, or anything else

    This is the reason I must continue informing about this issue, too many other "issues" of seemingly smaller scale are getting wider recongnition.

    I don't know if there is a "fix", but there must be research done into the issue to determine if this is "working as intended" or a sign of unpolished mechanics or oversight.
  • #5
    best you can do is test out a new weapon when you get it, and make sure the attack speed is acceptable to you, but it doesnt mean this problem can be ignored, il tell jay wilson my self XD :P does he check his email often?
    and dont assume the DPS is what it says it is.
  • #6
    Quote from paroxysm2010

    if you have to wait before you can move again with certain weapons the game is basically LIENG to you about your attack speed

    I just fully comprehended what you were trying to get at just now. But it seems attacks per second correlating to overall attack speed are dead on if not very close to 100% accurate over a periodic timeframe without moving.

    The issue is that movement lockout time is basically a second mechanic that can cause what we could call secondary effects to movement alone.

    All in all, movement, not attack speed or "DPS", seems to be the one to suffer, which has major secondary side effects.

    A good example to relate this to would be, the jailer affix.
    Say you are jailed for 0.2 seconds per jail, compared to 0.5 seconds per jail. You still can stand still and deal damage without suffering any direct side effects, but when the time comes to move, you would want to know why there is a 0.3 second disparity.
  • #7
    Quote from repinSniper

    Quote from paroxysm2010

    if you have to wait before you can move again with certain weapons the game is basically LIENG to you about your attack speed

    I just fully comprehended what you were trying to get at just now. But it seems attacks per second correlating to overall attack speed are dead on if not very close to 100% accurate over a periodic timeframe without moving.

    The issue is that movement lockout time is basically a second mechanic that can cause what we could call secondary effects to movement alone.

    All in all, movement, not attack speed or "DPS", seems to be the one to suffer, which has major secondary side effects.

    A good example to relate this to would be, the jailer affix.
    Say you are jailed for 0.2 seconds per jail, compared to 0.5 seconds per jail. You still can stand still and deal damage without suffering any direct side effects, but when the time comes to move, you would want to know why there is a 0.3 second disparity.

    This is spot on from my experience in fights with no movement or when movement doesn't effect survivability, but also slightly off, and affects my dps in fights where movement is required for survivability, and here's why. When I can stand and DPS non-stop, my attacks/sec and DPS are very close to my stats overtime, because I can just spam my attacks until the monsters are dead.

    This changes when you get in fights that require movement. When you start spamming attacks, and get ground-effects thrown under you and have to move, you won't move out of it no matter how many times you click until your last attack animation ends. This leads one to click in a more metered fashion to make sure you don't get trapped in them, because if the ground-effects hurt enough to have to leave them, then the mobs themselves hurt enough for you to need to move.

    Basically, it ends up being a reduction in DPS in fights where you need it, and reflects the stat pages DPS in fights where it doesn't matter.

    EDIT: typos and clarity.
  • #8
    Quote from Tyraen

    Basically, it ends up being a reduction in DPS in fights where you need it, and reflects the stat pages DPS in fights where it doesn't matter.

    To summarize, what we could call "secondary effects" on damage output due to the primary "movement lockout" being affected. Secondary effects are much harder to put values to.

    Edit: To show you that in my opinion that I agree on suvivability and damage output being affected, from my Bug post :
    "From my experience, being able to move away after you attack in a timely manner is a key survival trait necessary for high end play. Movement lockout times could be DIRECTELY related to damage reduction, survivability, damage output, and kiting effectiveness. And my in my opinion, they are directly related, just not at an empirical level."
  • #9
    If I'm reading this correctly, I have had this happen many times since 1.03.

    I will be using frenzy on a bunch of enemies and quickly spam furious charge because I am about to die. The ability will not go off when I know I cast it in plenty of time and I will die.

  • #10
    I should add - the title is not correct. It isn't game-breaking, even as a melee - with just enough dps, I can still progress. The bit of DPS I would gain would be nice, but it isn't enough to impede most. With ranged (especially glass cannon builds) I can see it being rough, as that extra seconds many times is the difference between life and death, though.

    Still needs to be fixed.

    EDIT: this wasn't added in 1.0.3. It has been there for a while now.
  • #11
    Quote from Savages

    I will be using frenzy on a bunch of enemies and quickly spam furious charge because I am about to die. The ability will not go off when I know I cast it in plenty of time and I will die.

    My build relys on Furious Charge + Merciless Assault rune to a degree I could not live without it at the moment (even with it's issues), so I can relate to your standpoint.

    I also have had many times where Furious Charge has had issues that I believe I could attribute to Movement Lockout Times, and I did see an increase in Lockout after the charge ended when I was using a 2h mace compared to the seemingly faster polearm.

    Thank you for one of the first actual Skill + Side Effects seen posts this topic has seen, I will do more research into Furous Charge now because of this.
  • #12
    Quote from paroxysm2010

    LIENG

    I stopped at that 'word' and it took me a good 2 minutes to realize that it wasnt a new acronym i didnt know, and just a misspelled word.

    Ohh web forums...
  • #13
    Quote from Tyraen

    I should add - the title is not correct. It isn't game-breaking

    Quote from Tyraen

    EDIT: this wasn't added in 1.0.3. It has been there for a while now.

    I would consider gamebreaking any widespread issue that can have minimal effect on one player while having major side effects to another player.

    Although you may disagree that this is in your idea of the word or meaning of gamebreaking, you are entitled to your opinion and I respect that.

    I would agree with you that this issue has been in existance since launch day at the least.
  • #14
    Quote from paroxysm2010

    omfg, they have to fix this, i wont play torchight to this day because attack speed or """DPS"" is BS
    animation speed = attack speed, if you have to wait before you can move again with certain weapons the game is basically LIENG to you about your attack speed, this is un acceptable, they need to fix this before they fix anything about item drops, skills, auction house economy, or anything else, this is just too stupid.

    Yeah, instead of being more realistic, everyone should be able to fire the skill off instantly, so fast thatyou can't even see, but the time between these super fast attack should be based on attack speed.

    TL;dr:NOOOOOOOOO
  • #15
    ok i misunderstood the attack speed issue, but it still seems like a big problem, hit and run is probably a lot of peoples strategies, and unknowingly to them their 'hit and run build' is nerfed if there is a limit on you being able to run after you attack.
    and is still a silly glitch, that could eat you up in inferno.
  • #16
    Quote from Plocer

    Yeah, instead of being more realistic, everyone should be able to fire the skill off instantly, so fast thatyou can't even see, but the time between these super fast attack should be based on attack speed.

    I don't fully understand the intentions of this post, but it raises the question: Realistic speeds + Unrealistic speeds COEXIST at the moment

    Quote from paroxysm2010

    ok i misunderstood the attack speed issue, but it still seems like a big problem, hit and run is probably a lot of peoples strategies, and unknowingly to them their 'hit and run build' is nerfed if there is a limit on you being able to run after you attack.
    and is still a silly glitch, that could eat you up in inferno.

    Misunderstanding is fine! I just want to clarify everything so that misinformation does not amplify an already complex issue.

    And yes! I went from Act 3 to the end with my polearm and after I put on a mace I said, "No way am i even touching A3+ with this dang mace, gotta get that polearm back from the AH, hope it doesnt sell!"

    Edit: Just did a test with Furious charge VS Mace/Polearm/Sword of near identical base attack speed. I seemed that no matter what weapon I used, when I used Frenzy every weapon prevented me from using Furious Charge for nearly the same time, but some allowed a much longer period of movement before I could use Furious Charge.
  • #17
    Yes it's true, and it also affects many movement abilities, like leap. I've died a couple of times, while spamming my az off W, but leap never happened. No latency of course, just a long animation.
  • #18
    Quote from RaidenFreeman

    No latency of course, just a long animation.

    My hope is that this does not get attributed to latency or lag whatsoever. This is independant of latency due to the fact it is a game mechanic.
  • #19
    all observations, no data, and no clue what other mechanics are taken into account when calculating animation speeds......

    yup seems like a totally just reason to complain about something
    Blizzard used to care about releasing Diablo III, then they all took an arrow in the knee...
  • #20
    Quote from youwillneverknow

    all observations, no data, and no clue what other mechanics are taken into account when calculating animation speeds

    Yes, these are all observations with a biased opinion since I'm human. I do not have the tools or the qualifications to accurately describe the mechanics in a detailed numerical manner, nor would a vast majority of indivduals.

    Most of these variances are taking place with timeframes of under one and a half seconds, a very small window to investigate.

    Don't believe me or don't understand what I am saying? I have listed a few tests you can do for yourself, and I will list again here:

    -Obtain two identical daggers, using basic attack as a skill, try to move as soon as you can after an attack with one dagger equipped, two daggers equipped, and no daggers equipped
    -Obtain a 2h Mace and 2h Polearm, repeat
    -Obtain 1h Spear and 1h Mace, repeat.

    These "tests" that can be done in under 5 minutes that have been determined by myself to show the disparity are simple ways to "see for yourself" that a problem actually exists, and that there are probably more scenarios that this can occur.

    As for the no clue about what other mechanics take place when calculating animation speeds, I do not know if animation speeds directly are even the problem and I doubt that they are. The issue is the Movement Lockout Time incurred by varying weapons, each of which have different animations.

    Also, what large mechanic is altered by just switching weapons? If you could explain, please do so.
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