Phrensta - Any qualifications you make using Inferno at this time are invalid. INVALID. because Blizzard has already acknowledged inferno is broken, and is fixing both itemization and difficulty to make it playable. And with the exception of a few affix combos, I can stand toe-to-toe with even elites in Inferno A1 for a few shots, if they don't have ground effects. Not geared enough for A2, yet, but shouldn't be an issue once 1.0.3 arrives.
You simply can't stand and fight even with perfect rolled geared, you have to run in and out all the time regardless, it just pisses people off that you are forced to play a certain way and then you get horribly punished for it. Also don't fucking respond with learn the attack animations, you are seriously retarded if you think that changes gameplay, you still run in and out.
So wait, let me get this straight - you want active avoidance, but you are complaining about actively avoiding incoming damage? Running in or out, or dodging and running in and out, I fail to see how your request improves things. How much more damage do you expect to do when half of that time you spend attacking you have to dodge too?
So wait, let me get this straight, you are in ACT I and you are standing toe to toe with champ packs, have you been to act 3 or 4 yet, rofl lol more laughter and mirth. Sigh, you call me a mouth breather and you spout that uninformed Frankenstein of a response, seriously, people are stupider for reading your post. Go to Act 4 stand toe to toe with something there, then come back here and tell me how much you enjoy hit detection.
Anyway, let's not argue about RMAH, let's get some constructive, intelligible, informed discussions about hit detection in Inferno beyond say ACT I.
It will be interesting to see how the Inferno changes play out. But again, I don't think Inferno is that hard, cleared act IV with wiz @ 60/60 dps/hp, In fact I don't want difficulty lowered at all, keep the monster HP, keep the Damage, just fix getting hit from things you actively avoided. Punish mistakes, reward skill, that is how I feel Inferno should be played. I think this is the game people were expecting, and voicing your opinion on the matter is not a crime
rofl you expect extended melee encounters in a world of one-shots...nice try
When Blizzard states they are happy with game balance and there are still one-shots (or 2 or 3 shots, for that mater) for people who aren't grossly undergeared, let me know. Until then, you should refrain from posting. You won't look any smarter that way, but you won't look any dumber, unlike now, by supporting an argument with facts gleaned from a broken system.
Phrensta - where I am makes no difference in regards to experiencing the issue you are crying about. When i first hit Act 1 with my crap gear, i got 1-shot a fair number of times - enough that i couldn't even differentiate if it was this issue, or just too much damage and not enough ability to mitigate. The active dodge concept would have allowed my to live longer, sure - but i would have still died due to enrage or eventually having to stand toe-to-toe to kill something.
As my gear improved, it became easier to see when I died to avoidable damage, when I died to massive amounts of unavoidable damage (crazy affixes), and the few times I died using escape moves to get out of range, and dying 20 yards away to an attack I saw start before I leaped.
Act 2 has been crazier, my gear isn't up there yet, less so than starting Act 1. And yet, in no way, would the ability to actively dodge actually help me kill monsters, just run away differently.
The entire discussion is useless until the Inferno changes are patched regardless. You won't ever get an active dodge/avoidance system outside of the active abilities we have. You *may* get lucky enough that certain mobs will have their damage adjusted to only 3 or 4 shot you providing you have the expected gear level for the zone.
Also - gj and insulting me and my comments without actually posting anything of value as a response.
Person A buys a pizza
Person B delivers pizza
Person A "b..but the Pizza is burnt..."
Person B "STOP BEING SO ENTITLED!!! ITS BY DESIGN, ITS HOW WE MADE IT, STOP BEING A CHILD"
To be fair, I am going to assume your retarded cousin put you up to posting this.
By design, a pizza has the toppings you request at purchase time, cooked correctly.
If you didn't get the olives you asked for, your pizza is not feature-complete.
If the cheese is bad, your pizza is broken and requires patching before consumption.
If you get a pizza and ask for a refund because it isn't a steak, and the pizza cook refuses to make you a steak, which you decided is what you wanted after ordering, your are an entitled douchebag who thinks because they payed the cashier, they are now entitled to get whatever food they want.
Phrensta - I agree, everyone should be able to voice their opinions. Something in your wording got me wound up, sorry if I made it personal first.
However, you said -
"Punish mistakes, reward skill, that is how I feel Inferno should be played"
I fail to see how having 1 more skill makes the difference between skill and cheap. If it was added, next week you would all be here complaining that you hit dodge, but got killed anyways, because the mob swing was started, you hit the button, and didn't make it. or mad because dodging won't work against multiple mobs at once (if it did, would be just as cheap).
That sentence is defined by a very fine line. I think it is skill to time your abilities ahead of melee attacks, while you think it shows more skill to have another way of avoiding damage beyond the ones we already have. And all the while, completely failing to understand that adding this ability will change nothing of significance in your gameplay, expect require to have even more gear to overcome the DPS deficit you will be in due to spending less time doing damage and more time avoiding it - active or not.
Person A buys a pizza
Person B delivers pizza
Person A "b..but the Pizza is burnt..."
Person B "STOP BEING SO ENTITLED!!! ITS BY DESIGN, ITS HOW WE MADE IT, STOP BEING A CHILD"
To be fair, I am going to assume your retarded cousin put you up to posting this.
By design, a pizza has the toppings you request at purchase time, cooked correctly.
If you didn't get the olives you asked for, your pizza is not feature-complete.
If the cheese is bad, your pizza is broken and requires patching before consumption.
If you get a pizza and ask for a refund because it isn't a steak, and the pizza cook refuses to make you a steak, which you decided is what you wanted after ordering, your are an entitled douchebag who thinks because they payed the cashier, they are now entitled to get whatever food they want.
yeap, this is my biggest issue with d3. I really want to use vault to avoid stuff but it's actually impossible if the mob started its attack animantion. You end up dying from a melee hit after you vaulted away from it.
Smoke screen is the only option to dodge melee attacks. I really hope they fix this so i can use vault instead.
Also, diablos' ring of fire is not visually accurate with the fireball radius. Sucks, and they should fix that too.
Dunno what you're on about there, I don't even have SS on my bars, I use vault like crazy. It is highly intolerant and you basically have to attack from offscreen 100% of the time in Inferno but it does work. Even if I get Vortexed in I can usually vault out provided I'm not killed instantly (Vortex chains molten trolololol).
Not saying it doesn't happen but it's not nearly that frequent.
Dodging is not impossible, you have roughly a 10% chance depending on your class, check in the Details.
^THIS.
no but seriously, you can STILL easily dodge them, if you react before mobs are actually on you lol. Same goes with diablo's fireball that spawns a fire pool, if you see him bashing the grounds and you move right away rather than waiting for the fire animation you can dodge it quick and clean. IMO, if you could avoid all melee hits just by moving a little, i mean diablo would be too easy... hes already not so hard WITH melee hits lol.
Deal with it or leave! This game is meant for real mans!
The titles incorrect, hit detection is not broken. As I'm sure has been stated a couple times in this thread, this is on purpose by Blizzard. On my DH, I make sure to always stay away from mobs as much as I can. And even when I get close I'm still able to run away (w/o vault) without getting hit most of the time. If you're trying to play a ranged but be in melee range and run in and out constantly, then you are exactly the reason why Blizzard made the mechanic this way. Learn to play ranged as ranged.
how awesome would it be in pvp if all ranged had to do is move 1 step backward and you do no damage ? Then you would come back here and cry rangeds are too OP.
Same thing in wow..... you can hit rangeds from like 8 yards away even tho you have a tiny ass dagger lol. even more with the latency between players, it looks like a biger gap.
(Excuse typos it's late, the wife wants to watch a movie)
In the interest of being fair, let's assume they were to add this feature. Any implementations that would not make usage significantly skill-based while still allowing the game to be accessible to most players will be thrown out. Also, no crazy unrealistic ideas or things that change the game in a way that makes it not Diablo. Not to be rude, but that is the point one needs another game, not changes to this one.
Control Scheme -
the control scheme is highly problematic to start with.
(1) Due to the fact that the left hand is already semi-static (1-4+Q), any idea of having dodge keys for the cardinal directions is out.
(2) Any setup that requires significantly changed keybinds is out
(3) 1 Single key is no more skill than a passive, really, unless it had a cooldown or dimishing returns on effectiveness.
(4)Extra mouse-buttons are invalid, as not everyone has those, and they shouldn't be required to play.
(5) The one concept that could work would be dbl-clicking in a direction to dodge. This has issues of it's own, as both buttons have attacks mapped to them, and anyone playing the game knows that clicking a monters or impassable terrain has questionable results at best.
Choice - (5) dbl-clicking.
Function -
So you dbl-click to dodge. What happens?
(1) you dodge, and an incoming attack is avoided. Doesn't scale well for the type of game we are playing, with many mobs attacking.
(2) you dodge, and x# of incoming attacks are avoided. Could scale with dodge rating, so chars with higher rating can avoid more attacks at once. Would still be questionable for chars with minimum dodge rating - skillful usages would save them more times than not, though.
(3) dbl-click a specific mob to dodge it's attack. Doesn't scale well with numerous mobs, would not be very functional.
(4) dbl-click in a short range around the player. Player moves no more than 5 yards in the direction clicked, doding x# of in process attacks in the least Y milliseconds. Works well for getting out of immediate danger, doesn't give much utility when surrounded though. Does encourage skillful play and awareness of the characters surroundings.
Choice - (4) dbl-click directional.
Limiter -
Spamming dodge takes no skill, and would require a significant increase in mob damage to compensate, which would punish all players except the ones who utilize it well. Therefore, the skill must have a limiter on how well it functions.
(1) Cooldown - only make it work every X seconds. Choosing the right time for skills takes alot of skill, but in a game with as many monsters at one time, a cooldown makes the ability almost useless. Great is you have 1 sec left on an ability, but outside of that or fight small packs while kiting, not worth the effort of implementation.
(2) Scaling based on stat/attribute. You can dodge back to back, but the number of attacks avoided scale with some stat. Since not all classes have the means of increasing dodge rating, scale it off of vitality, since all classes can access, it is already a survival stat, and because scaling off the primary stat would give ridiculous scaling to everyone, making it cheap, not skill.
(3) Dimishing returns. You can spam the button, the first time it blocks x# of attacks, and blocks fewer attacks each consecutive press until it blocks a maximum of 1. 3-5 seconds of no use resets the counter. Not alot of skill here, but does do reasonably well against packs at first.
(4) Damage trigger. Button activates after you take X damage, or cause X damage. Not taking or causing damage for x seconds deactivates the ability. Would need a secondary limiter from above, but much weaker, to prevent spamming once damage is dealt. kiting would disable it, preventing cheap abuse.
Choice - a blend of (2) and (4)
Game Effects -
With our new dodge mechanic, what changes need to be taking into account to adapt the game.
(1) Mob damage needs to be adjusted. Giving chars a global ability to avoid damage requires mob to put out more damage to compensate.
(2) Itemization adjustments to make sure the scaling stat isn't too abundant, and to make sure people who suck at dodging can gear in an alternate manner to play the game.
(3) Mob hit boxes and attack would need to be updated, to allow the game to take into account how dodging moves the player, and to understand within how much of a deadzone a char can dodge and count as avoiding the incoming attacks.
(4) All players skills that provide avoidance, and all stats that provide avoidance, would need to be revisited and adjusted to account for the damage mitigation the new ability allows.
(5) Player dps would need to be addressed, as dodge would almost always be in addition to the kiting time currently spent.
Outside of the above, are some secondary points -
(1) Any player who isn't doing well in his current content won't be saved by dodge. It will just, in most cases, extend the amount of time to die. Clever characters may be able to pull out close fights, and some folks may be able to surive the occasionally otherise deadly hit. Characters right on the cusp of the next content breakpoint will benefit most, providing they know when and how to use it effectively.
(2) Classes who don't use vitality in favor of GC builds will gain no benefit at all really. And shouldn't. Damage vs survivability is a choice. Getting both isn't skill.
(3) No skill of this type effectively handles hordes of monsters. Skillful use in these cases requires good kiting/environmental awareness, because if you get surrounded, it won't save you.
(4) because of how the mouse buttons are utilized, and how attacking works, this setup is still shaky at best.
-----------------------------------------
I am sure there are other ideas out there, but I tried to be as comprehensive as possible in a short time. Covering the details in regards to just making every attack avoidable is easier, but people won't like it as much. Everything has a balance, and if you get a better chance to avoid damage, your chance to take more damage will increase relative to the other.
Meaning - if they take away hit completion of basic attacks once the swing starts, regardless of char position, you can be sure melee mobs will get a damage increase acrossed the board to make up for it. You don't like Soul Rippers now? Wait til after this change. Scavengers? Awesome! Or, you are will take a hit in your avoidance stats, so that you lose block%/dodge%/armor/vitality scaling/etc. Either way, you get to avoid one little bit of damage that can already be avoided if your careful, in exchange for damage you have no means of mitigating excepting better gear.
and before anyone suggests it - they won't just take those hits away. The game is balanced around people taking those hits. Doing so doesn't provide more skillful gameplay, and it provides no benefit outside of the very small group of people who think they wouldn't have died in the next 10 seconds regardless.
for men/girls who obviously cannot dodge manually but just trusting the gear to do it for them. right.
(1) If you took damage, that mob hit you. That you don't like that it swung, you moved before the animation finished, but you took damage, in no way negates the fact above.
(2) The game *is* about being hit. You're third post makes a reference to dodging taking skill, but here, to talk about the game not being about things hitting you. In what way is any combat based game about skill and *NOT* taking damage? D2's hit detection wasn't better - not for anyone claiming to play a skill-based game, at least. D2 had virtually no challenge from start to finish. beyond that, D3 doesn't have guaranteed hits - just that once an attack has been determined to be a hit, your passive mitigation is what will decide the outcome. You know why it is this way? Because otherwise jackasses will stat pure DPS stats, and never die.
(3) Active dodge won't add much more skill based gameplay. In order to balance it, it would have very limited applications, and would also practically force the current mechanic being complained about to be left in place. If you want to talk about skill, learn to kite that extra .5 seconds such that your current abilities can save you. Don't ask the game developers to change the game in order for you to show off how badass you are.
rofl you realize that mobs (like Diablo) teleport...you can't always play ranged as ranged, you will be forced to be in melee sometimes..in that case blizzard doesn't let skill trump it
It has nothing to do with if it's intended but rather how ridiculous it makes the game look. There might as well not even BE a melee swing animation if it's going to hit you when Blizzard wants it to.
Basically anything that doesn't have skill avoiding windows take out the animation and just make me take damage. Same effect and doesn't look as ludicrous.
Happened to me numerous times too, i wasnt even close to the mob but still got hit, they're saying this is intended yet in d2 we didnt had this and the game worked just fine for milions of ppl.
Just think about is it logical to get hit by a mob when u're 5-10yd away from his swing, how does this makes sense?
Well i know is a game but in real life if a guy swings a hit at you and you move a bit behind the hit wont reach you, players instinct is to move away when they see a mob swinging at them.
This is a very important aspect of the game and they should have posted it when u start a hardcore character or on d3 box so you know that hits from 10yd away can still hit you.
exactly this one. this is THE Diablo i've been waiting for 10 years. Not any other. but it has a clear flaw. a hole in the bottom which has been plugged with a bubblegum.You can take that "play another game then"-card away. It's not too good excuse for issue like this.
This is a very interesting post because it shows so well how people thinks blizz owes them something. As if Blizz HAD to provide the game you've been dreaming of. Sorry to break it for you, they don't owe you anything.
Blizz releases a game, you like it? you buy it. You don't like it? you don't buy it. They made the "are you supposed to dodge" point VERY clear before release. You don't like it, yet you chose to buy the game and cry about how you don't like it. As if you HAD to buy the game, as if there was no other option, as if you were entilted to get the game you've been waiting for, exactly the way you want it.
QQing about server stability is something I can understand. QQing about game mechanics you couldn't ignore when you bought the game is just a spoiled brat attitude.
I'm getting really annoyed by the rivers of tears, and all the anger in the community. D3 has been released for more than a month now, it's time to move the fuck on if you REALLY hate it. I'm sure you'll get over the $60 paid after having played it for probably dozen of hours if not more, not ignoring what the game mechanism are when you bought it.
QQing about server stability is something I can understand. QQing about game mechanics you couldn't ignore when you bought the game is just a spoiled brat attitude.
People have been complaining about the ramp up in difficulty between inferno drops and Blizz decided to address it. There's been constant complaints about the item drops and loot tables and Blizz will be tweaking the specifics there too. Blizz has always maintained a solid stance against RMAH in HC, but with increasing demand they're reconsidering that notion. Every decision Blizzard makes is not perfect and shouldn't be treated as gospel. How many people complained about the skill UI when it first surfaced in beta? People are still complaining about it. Sometimes they just make poor decisions, and many of us are refuting this is one of them.
D2 didn't suffer this problem. Many people have come to expect the same level of fun and gameplay that D2 offered, but some are finding it's just not there with the way the game is handling hit detection. It's clearly taking skill out of the game and reinforcing the need for AH participation. Sure, players versed in the game mechanics can learn to always stay out of melee range if they can avoid it. But that's not always possible with teleporting/fast/vortex monsters. Diablo as well has a teleport attacks which exacerbates the issue. Watch the first video if you need proof. Also, check out these images: http://imgur.com/a/QxxZq#0
Vladivostok - no, Vlad, you were waiting for a game named Diablo 3 that worked the way you want it too. A system working as intended by the developers is not broken just because you do not like it. It is broken when it isn't working as they intended it.
Findulidas - I agree with the first point. On HC deaths - I am cool with dying to game mechanics (even this one) - it is server stability deaths that I do not like, but that is a diffferent discussion.
Benegesserit - the disconnect here is moving after the swing starts. A few of the supprting videos are clearly lag/latency issues. The rest clearly show someone being way close before using an ability, and dying from attacks that started before the ability did.
n0n3 - (1) If you were there when the swing started then yup - makes sense. (2) D2 had practically 0 difficulty, and worked great for eveyone who just wanted a loot pinyata game. Way to set the bar as low as possible. (3) Is it logical to be able to teleport, or summon bomb-dropping bats? How about realistic? A slow boxer can be dodged when the swing starts - a fast one? not nearly so much. (4) you should have learned the game mechanics before starting a HC character so you don't die.
kamiftw - agree 100%. Upvoted.
blazur - You aren't comparing apples-to-apples. People complain about many things. When Blizzard see them complain about things not working as intended, you get the fixes you describe. When people complain about things that are working as intended, you get this sort of backlash.
The ability to make the AH available to HC chars is not gamebreaking. Nor was their stance "solid" - it was "not available at launch, but that can change depending on demand". It will have a different economy, and be separate from the SC RMAH. It will also give players a realistic chance of progressing in Inferno. Also, it requires no sognificant changesin the game outside exposing the AH button on the char screen. Revamping the issue you are complaining about here requires *way* more work.
You have a disconnect between someone disagreeing with you and taking Blizzards stance as gospel. Beyond that, it exposes an underlying ignorance of how things work in the real world. When you buy *anything*, you have a right to it working correctly - as advertised. When something doesn't, you have a return policy to get your money back. When it works as described, and you are simply to stupid to pay attention, some places will still help you, but most will not. And yet, considering how many people understand the above, you all still think that games are somehow different.
To get to the point, though - everyone has a right to make their opinion on the game known, and make complaints about what they like or do not. Blizzard cannot make us like something, or tell us to like it. They cannot make us play this game. They *can* tell us if something is working correctly or not, and what they intend to do about it. They *can* decided to make the game they intended, and have no way obligation to us to do anything other than make the game available, and fix it according to the vision *they* had for the game. There is no issue with Blizzard "gospel" or "perfect" decision making. It is simply the way things work.
UI - liking it is a subjective issue - opinion. Works fine in my opinion.
Many people are finding any and every excuse under the sun to like D2 in favor of D3. If they fixed this, those people would find a new witch to burn. Many of the D2 supporters will never like D3 - because it isn't D2, and those rose-tinted glasses are tough to take off. Of because D3 actually requires someone to know how to play and gear past Normal mode. Or because, unlike endgame D2, you can actually die in Inferno mode. 9/10 arguements in favor of D2 are in favor of less skilled play, and more loot pinatas with better guaranteed loot.
---------------
Paying 60$ for a game doesn't guarantee it works the way you want it. Hell, in many cases it doesn't guarantee it works at all. That's why refunds are available - for when a purchases doesn't meet your needs. And it surely doesn't guarantee the developer has any responsibility to change it to make you happy. Just like an author isn't changing his book for you. Or a painter his color palette.
People need to understand that the ability to patch the game doesn't guarantee that it will be patched to their liking, or as they demand. Most companies with any amount of integrity will try to make the players happy, while maintaining the games vision as the created it. Too many people here have never created anything at all, or had their creation changed outside of their control, and have no concept of artistic integrity.
The argument has been made as well, that this wouldn't be as bad with an active dodge. And you would be wrong. You would still die to the same mechanic, just less often. It wouldn't be a measure of skill, it would be just 1 more "oh SH!t" button to cover when you screw up your kiting - which is the cuase of most of the deaths to this mechanic anyways. And ultimately, most of the people in support are in support of every other complaint thread here - meaning in the end, the only thing you will like is a new game - if that.
In the end, I just choose to accept and learn to play the game I bought, not ask them to change the game to meet my expectations. If it is broken, I behave like an adult and explain my issues, and ask to have it fixed. If they say it isn't broken, I try to learn how to play as they intended. And if it doesn't work out, I move onto another game, acknowldging that this one isn't a good fit. I do this with my books, my movies, and my music. Games are no different.
Yeah this is really sad imo. Don't know how many times I have died on diablo when he swings his arm. Betting he is taking my soul and have it there and grips it or something. Only explanation I have!
All high-damaging boss attacks are telegraphed so you can move out of them. If you are dying to boss melee then you shouldn't be in melee range.
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So wait, let me get this straight, you are in ACT I and you are standing toe to toe with champ packs, have you been to act 3 or 4 yet, rofl lol more laughter and mirth. Sigh, you call me a mouth breather and you spout that uninformed Frankenstein of a response, seriously, people are stupider for reading your post. Go to Act 4 stand toe to toe with something there, then come back here and tell me how much you enjoy hit detection.
Anyway, let's not argue about RMAH, let's get some constructive, intelligible, informed discussions about hit detection in Inferno beyond say ACT I.
It will be interesting to see how the Inferno changes play out. But again, I don't think Inferno is that hard, cleared act IV with wiz @ 60/60 dps/hp, In fact I don't want difficulty lowered at all, keep the monster HP, keep the Damage, just fix getting hit from things you actively avoided. Punish mistakes, reward skill, that is how I feel Inferno should be played. I think this is the game people were expecting, and voicing your opinion on the matter is not a crime
When Blizzard states they are happy with game balance and there are still one-shots (or 2 or 3 shots, for that mater) for people who aren't grossly undergeared, let me know. Until then, you should refrain from posting. You won't look any smarter that way, but you won't look any dumber, unlike now, by supporting an argument with facts gleaned from a broken system.
Phrensta - where I am makes no difference in regards to experiencing the issue you are crying about. When i first hit Act 1 with my crap gear, i got 1-shot a fair number of times - enough that i couldn't even differentiate if it was this issue, or just too much damage and not enough ability to mitigate. The active dodge concept would have allowed my to live longer, sure - but i would have still died due to enrage or eventually having to stand toe-to-toe to kill something.
As my gear improved, it became easier to see when I died to avoidable damage, when I died to massive amounts of unavoidable damage (crazy affixes), and the few times I died using escape moves to get out of range, and dying 20 yards away to an attack I saw start before I leaped.
Act 2 has been crazier, my gear isn't up there yet, less so than starting Act 1. And yet, in no way, would the ability to actively dodge actually help me kill monsters, just run away differently.
The entire discussion is useless until the Inferno changes are patched regardless. You won't ever get an active dodge/avoidance system outside of the active abilities we have. You *may* get lucky enough that certain mobs will have their damage adjusted to only 3 or 4 shot you providing you have the expected gear level for the zone.
Also - gj and insulting me and my comments without actually posting anything of value as a response.
To be fair, I am going to assume your retarded cousin put you up to posting this.
By design, a pizza has the toppings you request at purchase time, cooked correctly.
If you didn't get the olives you asked for, your pizza is not feature-complete.
If the cheese is bad, your pizza is broken and requires patching before consumption.
If you get a pizza and ask for a refund because it isn't a steak, and the pizza cook refuses to make you a steak, which you decided is what you wanted after ordering, your are an entitled douchebag who thinks because they payed the cashier, they are now entitled to get whatever food they want.
Phrensta - I agree, everyone should be able to voice their opinions. Something in your wording got me wound up, sorry if I made it personal first.
However, you said -
"Punish mistakes, reward skill, that is how I feel Inferno should be played"
I fail to see how having 1 more skill makes the difference between skill and cheap. If it was added, next week you would all be here complaining that you hit dodge, but got killed anyways, because the mob swing was started, you hit the button, and didn't make it. or mad because dodging won't work against multiple mobs at once (if it did, would be just as cheap).
That sentence is defined by a very fine line. I think it is skill to time your abilities ahead of melee attacks, while you think it shows more skill to have another way of avoiding damage beyond the ones we already have. And all the while, completely failing to understand that adding this ability will change nothing of significance in your gameplay, expect require to have even more gear to overcome the DPS deficit you will be in due to spending less time doing damage and more time avoiding it - active or not.
Wish you could +1 posts here for awesomeness
Hell, I +1'd yours, happy we agreed on something
Dunno what you're on about there, I don't even have SS on my bars, I use vault like crazy. It is highly intolerant and you basically have to attack from offscreen 100% of the time in Inferno but it does work. Even if I get Vortexed in I can usually vault out provided I'm not killed instantly (Vortex chains molten trolololol).
Not saying it doesn't happen but it's not nearly that frequent.
^THIS.
no but seriously, you can STILL easily dodge them, if you react before mobs are actually on you lol. Same goes with diablo's fireball that spawns a fire pool, if you see him bashing the grounds and you move right away rather than waiting for the fire animation you can dodge it quick and clean. IMO, if you could avoid all melee hits just by moving a little, i mean diablo would be too easy... hes already not so hard WITH melee hits lol.
Deal with it or leave! This game is meant for real mans!
also..
what the guy under me said
how awesome would it be in pvp if all ranged had to do is move 1 step backward and you do no damage ? Then you would come back here and cry rangeds are too OP.
Same thing in wow..... you can hit rangeds from like 8 yards away even tho you have a tiny ass dagger lol. even more with the latency between players, it looks like a biger gap.
^
^
^
This is Diablo, real game for real mans (girls too nowaday) with balls of steel!.
In the interest of being fair, let's assume they were to add this feature. Any implementations that would not make usage significantly skill-based while still allowing the game to be accessible to most players will be thrown out. Also, no crazy unrealistic ideas or things that change the game in a way that makes it not Diablo. Not to be rude, but that is the point one needs another game, not changes to this one.
Control Scheme -
the control scheme is highly problematic to start with.
(1) Due to the fact that the left hand is already semi-static (1-4+Q), any idea of having dodge keys for the cardinal directions is out.
(2) Any setup that requires significantly changed keybinds is out
(3) 1 Single key is no more skill than a passive, really, unless it had a cooldown or dimishing returns on effectiveness.
(4)Extra mouse-buttons are invalid, as not everyone has those, and they shouldn't be required to play.
(5) The one concept that could work would be dbl-clicking in a direction to dodge. This has issues of it's own, as both buttons have attacks mapped to them, and anyone playing the game knows that clicking a monters or impassable terrain has questionable results at best.
Choice - (5) dbl-clicking.
Function -
So you dbl-click to dodge. What happens?
(1) you dodge, and an incoming attack is avoided. Doesn't scale well for the type of game we are playing, with many mobs attacking.
(2) you dodge, and x# of incoming attacks are avoided. Could scale with dodge rating, so chars with higher rating can avoid more attacks at once. Would still be questionable for chars with minimum dodge rating - skillful usages would save them more times than not, though.
(3) dbl-click a specific mob to dodge it's attack. Doesn't scale well with numerous mobs, would not be very functional.
(4) dbl-click in a short range around the player. Player moves no more than 5 yards in the direction clicked, doding x# of in process attacks in the least Y milliseconds. Works well for getting out of immediate danger, doesn't give much utility when surrounded though. Does encourage skillful play and awareness of the characters surroundings.
Choice - (4) dbl-click directional.
Limiter -
Spamming dodge takes no skill, and would require a significant increase in mob damage to compensate, which would punish all players except the ones who utilize it well. Therefore, the skill must have a limiter on how well it functions.
(1) Cooldown - only make it work every X seconds. Choosing the right time for skills takes alot of skill, but in a game with as many monsters at one time, a cooldown makes the ability almost useless. Great is you have 1 sec left on an ability, but outside of that or fight small packs while kiting, not worth the effort of implementation.
(2) Scaling based on stat/attribute. You can dodge back to back, but the number of attacks avoided scale with some stat. Since not all classes have the means of increasing dodge rating, scale it off of vitality, since all classes can access, it is already a survival stat, and because scaling off the primary stat would give ridiculous scaling to everyone, making it cheap, not skill.
(3) Dimishing returns. You can spam the button, the first time it blocks x# of attacks, and blocks fewer attacks each consecutive press until it blocks a maximum of 1. 3-5 seconds of no use resets the counter. Not alot of skill here, but does do reasonably well against packs at first.
(4) Damage trigger. Button activates after you take X damage, or cause X damage. Not taking or causing damage for x seconds deactivates the ability. Would need a secondary limiter from above, but much weaker, to prevent spamming once damage is dealt. kiting would disable it, preventing cheap abuse.
Choice - a blend of (2) and (4)
Game Effects -
With our new dodge mechanic, what changes need to be taking into account to adapt the game.
(1) Mob damage needs to be adjusted. Giving chars a global ability to avoid damage requires mob to put out more damage to compensate.
(2) Itemization adjustments to make sure the scaling stat isn't too abundant, and to make sure people who suck at dodging can gear in an alternate manner to play the game.
(3) Mob hit boxes and attack would need to be updated, to allow the game to take into account how dodging moves the player, and to understand within how much of a deadzone a char can dodge and count as avoiding the incoming attacks.
(4) All players skills that provide avoidance, and all stats that provide avoidance, would need to be revisited and adjusted to account for the damage mitigation the new ability allows.
(5) Player dps would need to be addressed, as dodge would almost always be in addition to the kiting time currently spent.
Outside of the above, are some secondary points -
(1) Any player who isn't doing well in his current content won't be saved by dodge. It will just, in most cases, extend the amount of time to die. Clever characters may be able to pull out close fights, and some folks may be able to surive the occasionally otherise deadly hit. Characters right on the cusp of the next content breakpoint will benefit most, providing they know when and how to use it effectively.
(2) Classes who don't use vitality in favor of GC builds will gain no benefit at all really. And shouldn't. Damage vs survivability is a choice. Getting both isn't skill.
(3) No skill of this type effectively handles hordes of monsters. Skillful use in these cases requires good kiting/environmental awareness, because if you get surrounded, it won't save you.
(4) because of how the mouse buttons are utilized, and how attacking works, this setup is still shaky at best.
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I am sure there are other ideas out there, but I tried to be as comprehensive as possible in a short time. Covering the details in regards to just making every attack avoidable is easier, but people won't like it as much. Everything has a balance, and if you get a better chance to avoid damage, your chance to take more damage will increase relative to the other.
Meaning - if they take away hit completion of basic attacks once the swing starts, regardless of char position, you can be sure melee mobs will get a damage increase acrossed the board to make up for it. You don't like Soul Rippers now? Wait til after this change. Scavengers? Awesome! Or, you are will take a hit in your avoidance stats, so that you lose block%/dodge%/armor/vitality scaling/etc. Either way, you get to avoid one little bit of damage that can already be avoided if your careful, in exchange for damage you have no means of mitigating excepting better gear.
and before anyone suggests it - they won't just take those hits away. The game is balanced around people taking those hits. Doing so doesn't provide more skillful gameplay, and it provides no benefit outside of the very small group of people who think they wouldn't have died in the next 10 seconds regardless.
Just some food for your thoughts.
(1) If you took damage, that mob hit you. That you don't like that it swung, you moved before the animation finished, but you took damage, in no way negates the fact above.
(2) The game *is* about being hit. You're third post makes a reference to dodging taking skill, but here, to talk about the game not being about things hitting you. In what way is any combat based game about skill and *NOT* taking damage? D2's hit detection wasn't better - not for anyone claiming to play a skill-based game, at least. D2 had virtually no challenge from start to finish. beyond that, D3 doesn't have guaranteed hits - just that once an attack has been determined to be a hit, your passive mitigation is what will decide the outcome. You know why it is this way? Because otherwise jackasses will stat pure DPS stats, and never die.
(3) Active dodge won't add much more skill based gameplay. In order to balance it, it would have very limited applications, and would also practically force the current mechanic being complained about to be left in place. If you want to talk about skill, learn to kite that extra .5 seconds such that your current abilities can save you. Don't ask the game developers to change the game in order for you to show off how badass you are.
This quote does explain it quite well. You just want to play the game.
Just not *this* one.
rofl you realize that mobs (like Diablo) teleport...you can't always play ranged as ranged, you will be forced to be in melee sometimes..in that case blizzard doesn't let skill trump it
happy we agreed on something
It has nothing to do with if it's intended but rather how ridiculous it makes the game look. There might as well not even BE a melee swing animation if it's going to hit you when Blizzard wants it to.
Basically anything that doesn't have skill avoiding windows take out the animation and just make me take damage. Same effect and doesn't look as ludicrous.
Just think about is it logical to get hit by a mob when u're 5-10yd away from his swing, how does this makes sense?
Well i know is a game but in real life if a guy swings a hit at you and you move a bit behind the hit wont reach you, players instinct is to move away when they see a mob swinging at them.
This is a very important aspect of the game and they should have posted it when u start a hardcore character or on d3 box so you know that hits from 10yd away can still hit you.
This is a very interesting post because it shows so well how people thinks blizz owes them something. As if Blizz HAD to provide the game you've been dreaming of. Sorry to break it for you, they don't owe you anything.
Blizz releases a game, you like it? you buy it. You don't like it? you don't buy it. They made the "are you supposed to dodge" point VERY clear before release. You don't like it, yet you chose to buy the game and cry about how you don't like it. As if you HAD to buy the game, as if there was no other option, as if you were entilted to get the game you've been waiting for, exactly the way you want it.
QQing about server stability is something I can understand. QQing about game mechanics you couldn't ignore when you bought the game is just a spoiled brat attitude.
I'm getting really annoyed by the rivers of tears, and all the anger in the community. D3 has been released for more than a month now, it's time to move the fuck on if you REALLY hate it. I'm sure you'll get over the $60 paid after having played it for probably dozen of hours if not more, not ignoring what the game mechanism are when you bought it.
People have been complaining about the ramp up in difficulty between inferno drops and Blizz decided to address it. There's been constant complaints about the item drops and loot tables and Blizz will be tweaking the specifics there too. Blizz has always maintained a solid stance against RMAH in HC, but with increasing demand they're reconsidering that notion. Every decision Blizzard makes is not perfect and shouldn't be treated as gospel. How many people complained about the skill UI when it first surfaced in beta? People are still complaining about it. Sometimes they just make poor decisions, and many of us are refuting this is one of them.
D2 didn't suffer this problem. Many people have come to expect the same level of fun and gameplay that D2 offered, but some are finding it's just not there with the way the game is handling hit detection. It's clearly taking skill out of the game and reinforcing the need for AH participation. Sure, players versed in the game mechanics can learn to always stay out of melee range if they can avoid it. But that's not always possible with teleporting/fast/vortex monsters. Diablo as well has a teleport attacks which exacerbates the issue. Watch the first video if you need proof. Also, check out these images: http://imgur.com/a/QxxZq#0
Findulidas - I agree with the first point. On HC deaths - I am cool with dying to game mechanics (even this one) - it is server stability deaths that I do not like, but that is a diffferent discussion.
Benegesserit - the disconnect here is moving after the swing starts. A few of the supprting videos are clearly lag/latency issues. The rest clearly show someone being way close before using an ability, and dying from attacks that started before the ability did.
n0n3 - (1) If you were there when the swing started then yup - makes sense. (2) D2 had practically 0 difficulty, and worked great for eveyone who just wanted a loot pinyata game. Way to set the bar as low as possible. (3) Is it logical to be able to teleport, or summon bomb-dropping bats? How about realistic? A slow boxer can be dodged when the swing starts - a fast one? not nearly so much. (4) you should have learned the game mechanics before starting a HC character so you don't die.
kamiftw - agree 100%. Upvoted.
blazur - You aren't comparing apples-to-apples. People complain about many things. When Blizzard see them complain about things not working as intended, you get the fixes you describe. When people complain about things that are working as intended, you get this sort of backlash.
The ability to make the AH available to HC chars is not gamebreaking. Nor was their stance "solid" - it was "not available at launch, but that can change depending on demand". It will have a different economy, and be separate from the SC RMAH. It will also give players a realistic chance of progressing in Inferno. Also, it requires no sognificant changesin the game outside exposing the AH button on the char screen. Revamping the issue you are complaining about here requires *way* more work.
You have a disconnect between someone disagreeing with you and taking Blizzards stance as gospel. Beyond that, it exposes an underlying ignorance of how things work in the real world. When you buy *anything*, you have a right to it working correctly - as advertised. When something doesn't, you have a return policy to get your money back. When it works as described, and you are simply to stupid to pay attention, some places will still help you, but most will not. And yet, considering how many people understand the above, you all still think that games are somehow different.
To get to the point, though - everyone has a right to make their opinion on the game known, and make complaints about what they like or do not. Blizzard cannot make us like something, or tell us to like it. They cannot make us play this game. They *can* tell us if something is working correctly or not, and what they intend to do about it. They *can* decided to make the game they intended, and have no way obligation to us to do anything other than make the game available, and fix it according to the vision *they* had for the game. There is no issue with Blizzard "gospel" or "perfect" decision making. It is simply the way things work.
UI - liking it is a subjective issue - opinion. Works fine in my opinion.
Many people are finding any and every excuse under the sun to like D2 in favor of D3. If they fixed this, those people would find a new witch to burn. Many of the D2 supporters will never like D3 - because it isn't D2, and those rose-tinted glasses are tough to take off. Of because D3 actually requires someone to know how to play and gear past Normal mode. Or because, unlike endgame D2, you can actually die in Inferno mode. 9/10 arguements in favor of D2 are in favor of less skilled play, and more loot pinatas with better guaranteed loot.
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Paying 60$ for a game doesn't guarantee it works the way you want it. Hell, in many cases it doesn't guarantee it works at all. That's why refunds are available - for when a purchases doesn't meet your needs. And it surely doesn't guarantee the developer has any responsibility to change it to make you happy. Just like an author isn't changing his book for you. Or a painter his color palette.
People need to understand that the ability to patch the game doesn't guarantee that it will be patched to their liking, or as they demand. Most companies with any amount of integrity will try to make the players happy, while maintaining the games vision as the created it. Too many people here have never created anything at all, or had their creation changed outside of their control, and have no concept of artistic integrity.
The argument has been made as well, that this wouldn't be as bad with an active dodge. And you would be wrong. You would still die to the same mechanic, just less often. It wouldn't be a measure of skill, it would be just 1 more "oh SH!t" button to cover when you screw up your kiting - which is the cuase of most of the deaths to this mechanic anyways. And ultimately, most of the people in support are in support of every other complaint thread here - meaning in the end, the only thing you will like is a new game - if that.
In the end, I just choose to accept and learn to play the game I bought, not ask them to change the game to meet my expectations. If it is broken, I behave like an adult and explain my issues, and ask to have it fixed. If they say it isn't broken, I try to learn how to play as they intended. And if it doesn't work out, I move onto another game, acknowldging that this one isn't a good fit. I do this with my books, my movies, and my music. Games are no different.
All high-damaging boss attacks are telegraphed so you can move out of them. If you are dying to boss melee then you shouldn't be in melee range.