Dumbed down in the name of ease of use

  • #112
    Quote from mavfin

    The key to it is, unlike D2, you're not locked into anything, and there's no limit on respecs. Cookie-cutters don't really matter so much that way, because you don't have to start planning for level 60 at level 1. If a skill isn't inferno-viable, but it's fun in nightmare and hell, you can use it there, and then change it. Also, no more mistakes in skill allocation that people are stuck with.

    Well, I'm not advocating in favour of skills/runes being locked. I just think since choosing a rune doesn't "lock" you into a build (because you can lvl up and change it), why not allow people to choose what they want to experience at their pace? And if there's no better/worse runes, just different ones, we could still be able to choose it and not have it be the "wrong" choice.

    On the "cookie cutter" subject, I just recognize that some builds are going to have such great synergy and be easier to use than others to the point where they become the "standard", that tends to happen in most games (even in Call of Duty multiplayer with the customization).
  • #113
    Quote from Adon

    Good response, way to dodge out of the whole question ha. Good game buddy, try again next time.


    Hahahahaha.

    The best part is, I bet he honestly doesn't understand why no one takes him seriously.
  • #114
    Quote from Burzghash

    Quote from Adon

    Good response, way to dodge out of the whole question ha. Good game buddy, try again next time.


    Hahahahaha.

    The best part is, I be he honestly doesn't understand why no one takes him seriously.


    Probably because he still thinks that he can be 'right' while others are 'wrong' on the Internet, when it all comes down to personal preference and opinion. If he doesn't like how D3 is, he doesn't have to buy it, and neither does anyone else in the thread. It's your money. Spend it on D3 or don't. I will, but, I'm not here to convince you either way. I just share my likes for the system the way it is.

    If you don't like the D3 way, and want something less changed from D2, check out Torchlight I/II, and Path of Exile. Of course, GW2 is on the horizon for something completely different. I wouldn't give a plugged nickel for it, but I'm sure a lot of you will love it, and more power to you if so.
  • #115
    Yeah because when you finally finished Hell and started grinding gear you realiased you statted your character completely wrong at the lower levels and it was basically useless. I like the new system, this is Diablo 3 it needed change.
  • #116
    Quote from Burzghash

    Your argument is going so far into nonsense territory, it's like watching a child who doesn't know how to argue. They just pan through what's being said to them, and then immediately vomit something onto the keyboard that they think refutes what's being said, but really doesn't because they have such a poor grasp of the topic at hand. Helped in no small measure by the fact that they can't even keep their own logic straight in their head and dance from point to point.

    "Don't know if trolling or completely borderland stupid."

    Quote from Burzghash

    Why are we even trying to have a rational discussion with someone in which the extent of their logic is: D2 = 12 years, therefore D2 = perfect, changing that = bad. It should be clear that logic and reasoning don't factor in. The only decision-making that goes on in Adon's head is, if like D2, good. Else, bad!

    you actually are the king of argumentation. period.
    "A delayed game is eventually good, a bad game is bad forever." Shigeru Miyamoto-nintendo boss

    "I think it's hilarious because gamers won't be getting watered down anything.
    This is flat out Diablo 3." -Anonymous discussing the console version
  • #117
    Quote from Zero(pS)

    On the "cookie cutter" subject, I just recognize that some builds are going to have such great synergy and be easier to use than others to the point where they become the "standard", that tends to happen in most games (even in Call of Duty multiplayer with the customization).


    There's also a set of contrary gamers out there who will *avoid* the standard min/max builds. Cookie-cutters are a fact of life in MMOs, but, I avoid them like the plague in single-to-a-few-friends RPGs like Diablo. It's my time and my friends' to waste. Of course, I won't be playing pug games at all, so never fear, I won't be gimping anyone's gogogogoggo pubbie games. I have three guilds full of BattleTag friends from WoW/Rift/Diablo I/Diablo 2 days to play with.
  • #118
    Quote from brx

    Hi, I did not wrote the following topic (or the title), it is from the official beta feedback forum. I thought it was very interesting and well writen, and I believe it deserves your time. It is from a player named Cogwheel:

    Source: http://us.battle.net...opic/4427666934

    I fold. I give up on being (relatively) diplomatic about it. I've defended blizzard against cries of the game being "dumbed down" on many occasions.[1] But I'm really getting sick of having to tell new players that the game is either giving them false information or not even providing the basic tools to make intelligent decisions. D3's UI crosses the line from quality of life improvements to being dumbed down in many ways.

    The Skill UI

    On the face of it, to a new player there is nothing amiss. 6 skill slots, 6 categories of skills that go in those slots. The process of skill swapping is relatively smooth if you follow Blizzard's intended usage: right click a slot, select a skill, select a rune, accept. When you unlock a new skill slot, you open up a new skill category. Eventually you will have six slots for the 6 categories of spells. Cool. Nice and simple.

    Except that's wrong. This hand-held experience is hiding the underlying truth of the game. There are only 3 categories of spells: primary (cheap/generator damage), secondary (expensive/spender damage), and utility (everything else). These have been essentially shuffled into the 6 categories we have now.

    The other truth that is being hidden is that you can put any skill in any slot. Your build is not restricted to the 6 arbitrary groups noted above. If you decide you want to use two skills from the same category, you might go looking for an option. But there's no reason someone *should* think that's even possible. The skill UI makes it quite clear how the game works (and it's wrong).

    Once you do discover elective mode, you find that the UI experience is sacrificed at the altar of the default mode. Now that you have the capability of playing the game as it was designed (sigh) you find that it's extremely clumsy to take advantage of your new-found freedom.

    There is no easy way to compare two skills that you don't put on your bar unless they happen to be in the same category. Paging through 6 categories to find one spell is extremely annoying. Much of the interface is unintuitive. Take moving spells between buttons, for example. Drag and drop works there, but not in the skill pane itself.

    All of this is unnecessary pain. Either get rid of non-elective mode and streamline the UI, or give us a different UI for elective mode. You can achieve a guided experience for new players without straitjacketing everyone else.

    The skill system

    This might be more appropriate in its own thread because I actually really like the skill/rune system. I don't feel it's dumbed down in general (streamlined, for sure), but like the other problems I'm pointing out, it seems to be conveying the wrong idea to new players.

    There are at least a few dozen threads right now in the first few pages where people think of the skill UI in Diablo 3 as if it's the spellbook in WoW, or as the list of skills you can bring up for each mouse button in Diablo 2. This is probably at the root of most of the persistence/customizability concerns.

    The skill UI in diablo 3 is the evolved form of the skill tree in diablo 2. It is analogous to the talent tree in wow. The underlying concept it represents is "what limited set of skills will I have available to use the next time I find myself in combat?"

    The cooldowns are intended to convey the idea that skill swapping is a persistent decision, but instead they just come across as an inconvenience. The ease by which you can swap skills and the way the UI is set up makes the decision feel trivial.

    Even though you have just as much capability to differentiate yourself from other players (more, really), there's no sense of a cohesive build. When you look at the skill UI, you don't think of it as a snapshot of the choices you've made, it's just a list of spells you currently have bound to keys/mouse buttons.

    I'm not sure what can be done about this. Perhaps having a more tree-like interface would do the trick. This problem doesn't really affect the functionality of the game but it does take away something from players' expectations. It's hard to break down the first impression and get them to see the bigger picture

    Tooltips

    Advanced tooltips aren't advanced. They tell you exactly what the skill does and nothing more.

    The default tooltips, on the other hand, don't even make it that far. The have no damage numbers (percent or otherwise) on any skill, and many skills simply don't say they do damage. If skills that do damage don't tell you they do damage, how are you supposed to know when you're looking at a skill that actually does no damage? Especially when floating damage numbers are off by default?

    And with no indication of how much damage a skill does, you are hiding yet another fundamental mechanic of the game: that skill power is based on weapon damage.

    You didn't dumb down the game, you dumbed down your players. How are they supposed to make intelligent decisions when you aren't even providing the most basic of information?

    Basic tooltips should at least show damage %. Advanced tooltips could use more advanced info (like raw damage numbers).

    Target hitbox size

    I understand forgiving hitboxes, but this game goes far beyond "forgiving." When the WHOLE of my cursor (let alone just the tip) is over a quarter inch from any monster, I should be clicking ground not monster. End of story.

    At the very least, there should be an option to shrink them for people who actually care about precision. I mean it's pretty disingenuous for you to have a D3 themed gaming mouse when a gaming mouse doesn't do you a damn bit of good in D3.

    I could go on, and I'll probably add more later as I remember other issues. Threads about these issues have been cropping up in droves after every single beta wave. These are issues that make your game harder to use and harder to understand for new players in the name of doing the exact opposite.

    Pls to be fixing nao kthx

    --------------

    TL;DR version: There are several core game mechanics that aren't being conveyed to new players:

    Any skill can go in any slot (with some restrictions on the mouse buttons)Skills are more naturally categorized into Primary, Secondary, and UtilityChoosing your 6 skills is more than just binding spells, it's creating a buildSkills are based on weapon damage

    And hit boxes are too big

    ---------------
    [1] I still agree with most of those individual defenses. Most people who cry "dumbing down" are complaining about quality of life improvements, not true down-dumbing. For another example of my feelings on the matter, see my post about skill caps: http://us.battle.net...opic/3082251562


    Agreed on all accounts.

    At this point, after several months in beta, I am in a wait-and-see mode. Not sure I'll buy at release. The game has just moved too far from what I thought it would be even 6 months ago.
  • #120
    Quote from Tekkiller

    At this point, after several months in beta, I am in a wait-and-see mode. Not sure I'll buy at release. The game has just moved too far from what I thought it would be even 6 months ago.

    Interesting - do you mind explaining a little more? Feel free to PM me if you don't want to post in the thread.
  • #121
    Quote from Shmark

    Quote from Tekkiller

    At this point, after several months in beta, I am in a wait-and-see mode. Not sure I'll buy at release. The game has just moved too far from what I thought it would be even 6 months ago.

    Interesting - do you mind explaining a little more?

    i cant answer for him but i believe he feel being let down and have less and less faith to see thing changes after weeks and weeks of no communication from blizzard and nothing pointing toward an inch of clever changes. He then tries to be optimistic about it in a situation he analyse as very pessimistic. Something like that.
    "A delayed game is eventually good, a bad game is bad forever." Shigeru Miyamoto-nintendo boss

    "I think it's hilarious because gamers won't be getting watered down anything.
    This is flat out Diablo 3." -Anonymous discussing the console version
  • #122
    Quote from Adon

    Blizzard / Orb - FB - Lightning - Teleport - Masteries - Static - Warmth


    Quote from Adon

    But it isn't. you get 3 passives that can either increase mana, increase damage, increase life/ect whatever. I am getting 4+ passives, with 5-6+ offensive skills.


    Where are you getting "4+" and "5-6+" from? I count 7. Why is there a "+" at the end of your numbers too?

    ....WHAT ARE YOU EVEN TALKING ABOUT?

    We get it, you don't like D3 systems. This thread isn't about that, this thread is about the UI. Why are you so zealously attacking the game in a thread that's not even about that? I've seen so many people like you on these boards just hellbent on trying to convince everyone that the game they've played for hours upon hours in beta and loved has no customization and hence, no replay value? I've literally replayed the same 13 levels of the beta like 50+ times. Go ahead, try and tell me it has no replay value.

    Fucking logic.
  • #123
    Quote from pskfry

    Quote from Adon

    Blizzard / Orb - FB - Lightning - Teleport - Masteries - Static - Warmth


    Quote from Adon

    But it isn't. you get 3 passives that can either increase mana, increase damage, increase life/ect whatever. I am getting 4+ passives, with 5-6+ offensive skills.


    Where are you getting "4+" and "5-6+" from? I count 7. Why is there a "+" at the end of your numbers too?

    ....WHAT ARE YOU EVEN TALKING ABOUT?

    We get it, you don't like D3 systems. This thread isn't about that, this thread is about the UI. Why are you so zealously attacking the game in a thread that's not even about that? I've seen so many people like you on these boards just hellbent on trying to convince everyone that the game they've played for hours upon hours in beta and loved has no customization and hence, no replay value? I've literally replayed the same 13 levels of the beta like 50+ times. Go ahead, try and tell me it has no replay value.

    Fucking logic.

    Ha, im not getting into it with you. However, masteries counts as 3, warmth is another, that is 4. I can add more if I wanted.
  • #124
    Quote from Adon

    Quote from pskfry

    Quote from Adon

    Blizzard / Orb - FB - Lightning - Teleport - Masteries - Static - Warmth


    Quote from Adon

    But it isn't. you get 3 passives that can either increase mana, increase damage, increase life/ect whatever. I am getting 4+ passives, with 5-6+ offensive skills.


    Where are you getting "4+" and "5-6+" from? I count 7. Why is there a "+" at the end of your numbers too?

    ....WHAT ARE YOU EVEN TALKING ABOUT?

    We get it, you don't like D3 systems. This thread isn't about that, this thread is about the UI. Why are you so zealously attacking the game in a thread that's not even about that? I've seen so many people like you on these boards just hellbent on trying to convince everyone that the game they've played for hours upon hours in beta and loved has no customization and hence, no replay value? I've literally replayed the same 13 levels of the beta like 50+ times. Go ahead, try and tell me it has no replay value.

    Fucking logic.

    Ha, im not getting into it with you. However, masteries counts as 3, warmth is another, that is 4. I can add more if I wanted.


    Do I get to count all the rune variants too then?
  • #125
    I used more skills in D3 beta than I ever did in D2. But not because I wanted to. I felt it was OPTIMAL doing so, since some fights demand a different approach and the game allows you to adapt your set of skills for the moment.

    For example: as a wizard, I used magic missile, ray of frost, diamond skin and frost nova for SK (and it sounds a viable set for single target fights); For mobs, I preferred shock pulse w/ corpse explosion rune, arcane orb, wave of force and frost nova. The interesting thing is that I didn't do 'buff renewing', but used completely active skills in my UI, for damage, defense or control.

    As a sorceress in D2, the most versatile (and VIABLE) thing I did was having FOrb/Meteor/Teleport/Static. Nothing much else to use. Masteries are passives, warmth was a passive, a few sinergies and a lot of never used pre-reqs. But optimal builds require you to be a fireball/meteor spam with heavy sinergy investment.
  • #126
    Nephalem valor anyone?
  • #127
    I prefer the new skill system, which is based more around (player) skills than "knowledge".
    All the skills are much more unique, and it will be fun to level up a character while trying all the skills.
    People judge the game on a 2h beta, I wonder who's stupid...

  • #128
    The paid posters are putting up a good fight.

    But this is only the warmup - when people realize just how badly these design choices have hurt replayability a month after release, it will be really interesting. The QQers will have a whole new layer of bitterness.
  • #129
    Quote from Gheed2010

    The paid posters are putting up a good fight.

    But this is only the warmup - when people realize just how badly these design choices have hurt replayability a month after release, it will be really interesting. The QQers will have a whole new layer of bitterness.


    Explain to me in detail how this affects re-playability? By allowing us to freely change and try out the seemingly endless build types wouldn't this bolster the games lifespan instead of discouraging people with the Diablo 2 model of having to remake entire characters?
    Redkoolaid -ALL 2 MINUTE COOLDOWNS
  • #130
    I've played the Diablo series since it started (I was 11 at the time playing online; Town Square REPRESENT!) and ill be the first to admit I am no pro at this game. Mainly due to the many stat/skill choices offered (stemming from D2) to be perfectly honest I had to restart a few characters because I did not know what the hell I was doing.

    Some may see this system as being "dumbed down" but it kinda makes it easier on gamers like me. Sure, I can catch on and learn (now that I'm older and out of the "Oh, that skill has a cool name! I MUST HAVE IT" phase), and from what I've seen so far of the skill system it offers a little less anxiety of "if I pick this will I suck?" mentality.
  • #131
    Quote from FistOfZakarum

    Quote from Gheed2010

    The paid posters are putting up a good fight.

    But this is only the warmup - when people realize just how badly these design choices have hurt replayability a month after release, it will be really interesting. The QQers will have a whole new layer of bitterness.


    Explain to me in detail how this affects re-playability? By allowing us to freely change and try out the seemingly endless build types wouldn't this bolster the games lifespan instead of discouraging people with the Diablo 2 model of having to remake entire characters?


    because skill swapping is lame. Respeccing is okay... but it should be for an increasing gold cost... and it should be in town only... and only once per day.
  • #132
    Quote from Gheed2010

    The paid posters are putting up a good fight.

    But this is only the warmup - when people realize just how badly these design choices have hurt replayability a month after release, it will be really interesting. The QQers will have a whole new layer of bitterness.


    I'm starting to think there's paid posters on the NA Bnet forums lol. Everytime there's a well-thought out anti-Bnet or anti-Skills-UI thread, always a few trolls that refuse to acknowledge weakness in their designs. And most of us love the game, but there are issues with new players being tricked etc...

    The funny thing is in SC2 we (in the mapping community) saw the issues from the beta, but it took over a year for the main stream community to 'get it'. Same might happen for D3?
    SC2 Editor Tutorials: OnetwoSC
    D3 Channel: OnetwoD3
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