Lack of Diminishing Returns in CC

  • #1
    I am very worried about the state of CC abilities... Here's why...

    1.) No diminishing returns on CC abilities

    * This is extremely exploitable with groups of characters. What is going to stop a group of 4 warriors from keeping monsters chain stunned with ground stomp, Mages w/ frost nova, etc.?

    * I'm unsure about when the increased resistances start to kick in. Can you exploit chain stun all the way through normal? What about all the way through nightmare? etc. A yes to any of these questions would be a big disappointment. Enemies need diminishing returns on CC effects. There is no reason why a group should be allowed to keep a group of enemies chain stunned.

    2.) End game increased resistance of CC abilities

    * I am not thrilled with this solution at all. It's better than allowing us to chain stun enemies but it's vastly worse than a diminishing returns system. There are 2 major faults with an increased resistance system

    A.) There is nothing less fun than dying because your escape ability (stun, frost nova, etc.) rolled poor RNG and failed. Dying because of RNG and not lack of skill is not a fun system.

    B.) Only certain defensive skills are being targeted. This will imbalance the skills that aren't targeted. If you add resistance to a skill like frost nova what will you do to an ability like teleport or mirror images? What happens with this system is that frost nova gets worse but the others remain the same.

    Why was this system decided on instead of a simple diminishing returns system? It just seems.... worse on all accounts. Am I missing something?
  • #2
    This isn't an MMO, as such with this type of game that wouldn't be exploiting. That's called being tactical. Yes you're right, that would be easier for a group of barbs to chain stun a group of mobs, and good on them for being able to communicate their rotation. Bosses have an increased resistance to CC abilities though.

    All in all, it doesn't really matter at ALL whether a group is able to CC effectively. It won't affect me whether some people are playing as a team.


    Edit: You're not helping your case by calling the classes mages and warriors... just sayin.

    Double edit: Um, welcome to video games, where EVERYTHING you do is RNG.
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChB2_IPc-HVXbi0jS1Riljg
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  • #3
    Those aren't escape abilities. They're CC. What about Teleport, Spirit Walk, Sprint/leap, vault, tempest rush??

    You're arguing something that makes no sense. Of course their are resistances because they're supposed to GET harder on higher difficulties. They want gear to matter so that you don't rely on all those abilities and be glass cannons while avoiding all damage.

    And you are missing something. It's called the rest of the game after Skeleton King.
  • #4
    Mobs die so fast, chaining cc on a single group is useless. Even uniques will be dead after to cc skills.

    Plus, you need the resource to spam your cc spells while still casting your other damaging spells.

    Third, if your group can play so well that they can chain cc every monster, perk for you. Good luck though. I just don't see the tactic working out. And that's coming from someone who chained shockwave in D2.

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  • #5
    Quote from Steamrice

    Those aren't escape abilities. They're CC. What about Teleport, Spirit Walk, Sprint/leap, vault, tempest rush??

    You're arguing something that makes no sense. Of course their are resistances because they're supposed to GET harder on higher difficulties. They want gear to matter so that you don't rely on all those abilities and be glass cannons while avoiding all damage.

    And you are missing something. It's called the rest of the game after Skeleton King.


    How does it make no sense? If you have one ability that works 50% of the time and one ability that works 100% of the time, which ability would you choose?

    Why would you choose horrify over spirit walk in Inferno if Horrify works 50% of the time and spirit walk always works?
  • #6
    Quote from Ruppgu

    Quote from Steamrice

    Those aren't escape abilities. They're CC. What about Teleport, Spirit Walk, Sprint/leap, vault, tempest rush??

    You're arguing something that makes no sense. Of course their are resistances because they're supposed to GET harder on higher difficulties. They want gear to matter so that you don't rely on all those abilities and be glass cannons while avoiding all damage.

    And you are missing something. It's called the rest of the game after Skeleton King.


    How does it make no sense? If you have one ability that works 50% of the time and one ability that works 100% of the time, which ability would you choose?

    Why would you choose horrify over spirit walk in Inferno if Horrify works 50% of the time and spirit walk always works?


    because they have completely different uses

    To illustrate: Would you take an ability that did 1 DPS 100% of the time or 10000 DPS 50% of the time? Obviously at SOME point there's a line you would cross. Since Horrify and Spirit Walk are different everyone is going to have their own line to decide if 50% is worth it.
  • #7
    And let's not forget that you can have both Spirit Walk and Horrify at the same time. Maybe Inferno requires more than just 1 defensive ability.
  • #8
    In MOBAs there is no diminishing returns. DotA and LoL are some of the most successful online competitive games. End of thread?
  • #9
    You lost validity when you put warrior and mage...
  • #10
    I'll drop the 2nd part because it's getting a lot of attention and was really just an afterthought. I understand now that there's a difference between escape and CC abilites (the horrify vs spirit walk situation is still concerning imo), but regardless...

    I don't understand how everyone can enjoy such a flawed system. I don't care what so and so game did... can you tell me a REASON why the system is good? I honestly don't understand how it's possible to enjoy such a system. Are you guys saying that you enjoy a system that allows you to keep enemies in a stun lock for 100% of the time? That's fun to you? I'm not trying to be contrary, I just don't understand the point of view.

    I'm worried that this stun-lock will be allowed late into the game. So far, we've only received word from bliz that Inferno will have increased resistances to CC effects. When will the increased resistances start? I really hope it's Nightmare but we have no reason to assuming that's the case beyond blind speculation and hence my worry. If nightmare and hell difficulty is negated by cheap tactics, I'll be very disappointed. Why is the game better without diminishing returns? Even in normal, the game would be better with diminishing returns....

    It's not like I'm talking about an extreme case either. 3 of the 5 classes have abilities that would allow for a stun-lock scenario.

    In case you don't know want I mean by diminishing returns, I mean that the first stun to the monsters does full amount, the next stun does half and then any stun for the next x seconds will do nothing. It's a great system and helps to avoid cheesy stunlock strategies.
  • #11
    After playing a group game with just 1 other barbarian that was using stuns (bash with the clobber rune is a hate generator so you pretty much spam it until it misses then you ground stomp) it was pretty ridiculous how little effort was spent on the skeleton king. Try it out even with the new 1.5 sec stun it's LOL's

    If the end of act bosses behave in the same manor it will be quite trivial for an all barb group through normal. Lets face it though I don't think anyone really expects normal to be a challenge.

    The problem is that I have seen no mention about diminish returns just about stun resist.
    So the question is at what point do stuns become no longer viable, and if end of act bosses or latter mini bosses are immune to stun.

    Clobber is amazing, its a lvl 6 rune, in my mind should be a lvl 52 rune - but it's not. So maybe it's only going to be viable through the first difficulty lvl.So unless stun resist is very high like 90% a inferno a group laying down blanket stuns will greatly reduce the amount of time mobs are actively swinging on them.

    Or everything will eventually be immune to stun and you will have to trade those abilities out.
    Personally I think that knockback and stun will probably work on normal mobs with a chance (10-20%) to work on high end eletie packs and end of act bosses will be immune.

    There is also the chance that there will be a cc immune (unstopable?) affix for champion packs... I also expect stuns to get nerfed like they were in wow pvp so you get true diminishing returns (15 sec of cc 15 sec stun immune) However as this is hack and slash we don't know how long it's going to take to kill things at latter difficulty lvls.

    All is speculation before may 15th or until blizzard releases more information on it's combat system (I'm very interested in the damage reduction/ slow stacking )

    We shall see shortly
  • #12
    I wouldn't worry too much about it honestly. Blizzard is an exceptionally competent developer and they have some of the more extensive internal testing and iteration in the industry. The tiny bit of D3 which they've publicly shown isn't anywhere near enough to start making sweeping indictments about balance between CC and DPS skills / runes, etc. Tooltips rarely tell the whole story.
    ...and if you disagree with me, you're probably <insert random ad hominem attack here>.
  • #13
    Quote from Ruppgu

    I don't understand how everyone can enjoy such a flawed system. I don't care what so and so game did... can you tell me a REASON why the system is good? I honestly don't understand how it's possible to enjoy such a system.


    Play it, then judge it. If you hate it that much, don't play it. /care
  • #14
    Quote from Ruppgu
    It's not like I'm talking about an extreme case either. 3 of the 5 classes have abilities that would allow for a stun-lock scenario.

    How many mobs do you think there will be that will last a full round of 4 stuns on them? I can't see the need to stun lock a group.

    Just because you can stun lock a group of mobs and kill them does not mean that is the most efficient or even effective path to chose. Using that global CD, those resources, that ability on your hotbar, that time to stun and co-ordinate stun locking could be used to better effect either simply dishing DPS or using a heal/damage mitigating ability that would negate the damage taken from not stun locking them.
    I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear.I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain...
  • #15
    Quote from Ruppgu

    Quote from Steamrice

    Those aren't escape abilities. They're CC. What about Teleport, Spirit Walk, Sprint/leap, vault, tempest rush??

    You're arguing something that makes no sense. Of course their are resistances because they're supposed to GET harder on higher difficulties. They want gear to matter so that you don't rely on all those abilities and be glass cannons while avoiding all damage.

    And you are missing something. It's called the rest of the game after Skeleton King.


    How does it make no sense? If you have one ability that works 50% of the time and one ability that works 100% of the time, which ability would you choose?

    Why would you choose horrify over spirit walk in Inferno if Horrify works 50% of the time and spirit walk always works?


    You know you can still take damage when you spirit walk? if mobs are near you when you walk your body still takes damage. Its not a get out of jail free card.
  • #16
    Quote from RaidenFreeman

    Quote from Ruppgu

    I don't understand how everyone can enjoy such a flawed system. I don't care what so and so game did... can you tell me a REASON why the system is good? I honestly don't understand how it's possible to enjoy such a system.


    Play it, then judge it. If you hate it that much, don't play it. /care


    I have to completely agree.

    @ Rappgu

    Can YOU tell me why it's a flawed system? You're going around ranting that this system is flawed / broken ect, when you provide no proof. Yes, if timed right a group CAN chain stunlock a mob... And so what? You're not adding anything afterwards.
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChB2_IPc-HVXbi0jS1Riljg
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  • #17
    what you consider "exploiting" is really a way of playing the game. do it! it will benefit you if you can keep it up (no you whont, there will be time where you are your balls are gona get served on a silver plate if you rely to much on CC)

    kinda like stacking lifesteal!, its awesome, you never die... untill you cant attack for a few secs...
    Game Designer - Micro Design
  • #18
    Quote from Nivius

    what you consider "exploiting" is really a way of playing the game. do it! it will benefit you if you can keep it up (no you whont, there will be time where you are your balls are gona get served on a silver plate if you rely to much on CC)

    kinda like stacking lifesteal!, its awesome, you never die... untill you cant attack for a few secs...

    Indeed. Stun locking is perfect until one stunlock "misses" or is mistimed. There are too many variables in a game like this to say with certainty that a group can perma-stun lock their way to inferno. It might only take one or two mobs to fall outside of the CC range to start landing a few hits to throw even the most organised group off balance later in the game.

    I think the OP underestimates the level of skill, co-ordination and patience needed to stun-lock your way through a game such as this
    I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear.I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain...
  • #19
    This is not MMO PVP!

    A hack-n-slash game like D3 is much more hands-on and diverse, to every stun in this game is a counter available ready at the button.
    "Just quit and wait for GW2"
  • #20
    There's not diminishing returns because CC is not how you play this game. In World of Warcraft (The game that some people think D3 is with a hell themed skin.) diminishing returns are an important and essential part of combat. Without them arena would be pathetic and group dungeons would be significantly easier.

    In Diablo 3 (The game we are actually going to be playing on May 15th.) there is ''CC" abilities to get you out of oh shit situations or make a messy situation a little more manageable. While 4 Wizards (Not Mages) in theory could chain frost nova it would be extremely inefficient even in a normal mode setting. The amounts of monsters in a 4 player game are so massive you'll be overrun if you choose to chain frost nova.

    TL;DR; This isn't WoW, chain CCing in games of all sizes is extremely inefficient and that's why diminishing returns are not needed.
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