Grouping & Magic Find

  • #41
    Quote from Nuvian

    Quote from HeyseusKristos

    Quote from Nuvian

    Quote from underarock

    I see it as a tradeoff of find stats for survivability in group runs, It will ultimately lower MF/GF/EXP gain in groups overall. if three people have 1200 MF and one person has 1800 MF, that means the 1200 peeps are bumped to 1350 and the 1800 is bummered out of 450 of his hard earned MF gear.

    Groups will be run because of the social gain not the actual stat gains - in most situations it seems solo play wold be more beneficial to people from a find stat point of view.

    There would be a survivability gain from groups (heals, buffs and debuffs) which is an incentive to do them (inferno content)

    any thoughts?

    Its impossible to have a complete balance, but if all were close to equal equipped and one had 450 more MF it would have cost him some DPS, why should the rest be punished for that? this system isn't perfect but its more fair in general.
    Quote from HeyseusKristos

    Quote from jaclashflash

    Quote from insanetrasher

    Quote from jaclashflash

    No what is bad is your reasoning skills.

    Its like you want to be rewarded twice. You want the extra items, but you don't want any sort of penalty for your lack of dps at the same time.

    MF isn't free... All you leechers have this weird idea that you are like super pro and although your decked in MF and join this random group you will still do just as much dmg as everyone else.

    Well I hate to break this to ya, well not really, but you are not pro. And the faster you get over this delusion, the faster you can come join us in reality. Once there you will easily recognize this is by far the most fair system for everyone involved, and hopefully these terribad complaint threads can stop.


    So you decided I was a leecher? Anyway.. What I'm pointing is that obviously Blizzard want to make the game rewardable even for those who doesn't understand every systems (MF). But those who understand it will get penalized if they play with those who don't.

    So if Blizzard really want to make it so those with no MF has some gain, they should at least consider not penalizing the others too much.

    I'd prefer no sharing at all but if it is to be shared, at least don't share it at 100%.

    EDIT: The new system is great if you play in a planned group and if MF gear is always "a lot" worse than regular DPS oriented gear.

    But once you play with randoms you're f***ed.


    You are a leecher, you plan on joining games with very high MF and low DPS. That is the definition of a leecher in D3.

    MAGIC FIND IS NOT A FREE STAT!!!!
    MAGIC FIND IS NOT A FREE STAT!!!!
    MAGIC FIND IS NOT A FREE STAT!!!!
    MAGIC FIND IS NOT A FREE STAT!!!!


    Idk what is hard about that to understand..... You have to give something up to stack that stat. You are not better than other players because you have more Magic find then they do.

    ONE QUADRILLION MAGIC FIND is worthless if you can't kill shit!


    Magic Find in D2 was often a FREE STAT!!! on set pieces... ooops.

    It has been stated by blizzard that there wont be "free" MF in diablo 3 and players will have to sacrifice for MF.

    Doesn't matter if you sacrifice survivability or damage it still effects your group, if you keep dying you are slowing down the rest, if you do low damage you are slowing down the rest, with this change your at least giving something back.


    I have not seen Blizzard state MF bonuses won't be on Set pieces. If set pieces are going to be viable at end game, they will have MF on them. What Blizzard was refering to, was the Ice Sorc who could deal crazy high AOE damage and still be high MF. You are no longer getting your dps mainly from your build, but mainly from your gear.

    And that is why you will have to sacrifice DPS/survivability if you want to go all out MF, and what does set pieces have to do with it? the pieces will have a certain balance, the point is what will you do with your other pieces? prioritize MF over other essential states? and we don't know how common/uncommon the sets are at the moment.

    The issue is players that just use the highest MF pieces and don't care about their contribution to the group, not players that use their class sets etc... to be honest i have no idea how you even got to the set example (every stat has the potential to be a bonus, does that mean all the stats in the game are free?), my post was about people that put MF above all else.


    I am specifically referring to the phrase "MF IS NOT A FREE STAT!!!" I'm telling you, if you want set pieces at end game, they will come with MF on them. Often in the "set bonus" which in reality is a free stat. Only a fool will go all dps and no mf in the game. Or someone who likes to kill alot more monsters for the same return someone else who does it in less time and effort.
  • #42
    Quote from CrazyValheru


    If a player with high mf does more than his share of the damage on a given monster, he gets to keep his full MF on said monster.


    This. I don't know why there can't be a meet in the middle solution. People who are for averaging MF basically come out with a straw man saying "If you are going for MF you have 0 dps, if you go for offensive stats you 1 shot everything."

    At high end gear levels, the difference might be 1-2 hits, if that. Again, we aren't talking blues with MF only as the stats, we are talking rares and legendaries with offensive stats with the added bonus of MF.


    Yah why don't we have the game solve advanced calculus problems while we play as well? I am sure that will work...ohh wait, thats right its not designed to do anything like that, and even if it could be done after months of further delay it would be quite taxing.

    This is the 2nd best method to solve the problem; the 1st is of course the method they chose. Of course its still terrible, because it assumes that the only objective is dps.

    Quote from HeyseusKristos

    I am specifically referring to the phrase "MF IS NOT A FREE STAT!!!" I'm telling you, if you want set pieces at end game, they will come with MF on them. Often in the "set bonus" which in reality is a free stat. Only a fool will go all dps and no mf in the game. Or someone who likes to kill alot more monsters for the same return someone else who does it in less time and effort.


    What a crock of shit, you are just arguing semantics BS. Strawman says HI! Such a comment isn't even worthy of discussion.
    One is never hurt by being given additional choices, only by taking them away.
    A QUADRILLION MAGIC FIND is worthless if you can't kill shit!
  • #43
    I think this system is good for whichever end of the spectrum you are on.

    Consider the two situations most people are talking about.

    1. 3 players have a lot of MF and one has 0.

    2. 3 players have 0 MF and one has a lot.

    In scenario 1, the one guy without magic find gets benefit from being in a MF group. You might think this is unfair to the other three, but actually, the guy without MF will greatly increase the kill rate of the whole group because his stats are all geared to killing.

    In scenario 2, the 3 players get a MF boost from the one guy with tons of MF. The one guy with MF gets the benefit of 3 players tearing through monsters extremely fast.

    In both cases, MF people and non-MF people benefit equally from having each other in their groups.
  • #44
    This is great thing for coop, now you can have like 2 ''killers'' and 2 ''mf/gf'' persons, which is great for balance, hope it stayed this way, so you can maximize finding stuff per time, to have enough killing and mf/gf great. Really hope it stays this way then coop will really pay off.
    Not even death can save you from me
  • #45
    I'm not going to give this guy the benefit of quoting his post to allow the screaming to continue. But as to the, "Magic find is not being a free stat." No one has ever said its a free stat. But lets see if you can follow me here.

    http://us.battle.net/d3/en/artisan/blacksmith/recipe/exalted-grand-sovereign-helm We're both wearing this same helm.

    It has 6 stats on it. Lets say that of our 2 items, 5 of the stats are the exactly the same. We're both wizards for simplicity. If you need to see the list of current affixes go for it: http://diablonut.incgamers.com/affixes

    Lets say this item has: 5 offensive affixes and +MF on mine, and 6 offensive affixes on yours, but ATM there don't even seem to be 6 offensive affixes, so your 6th is globe radius or even a defensive stat.

    Its true that MF is not free, but given the alternatives, you can trade a stat for MF and still have the same killing power.
  • #46
    Quote from Omann

    I think this system is good for whichever end of the spectrum you are on.

    Consider the two situations most people are talking about.

    1. 3 players have a lot of MF and one has 0.

    2. 3 players have 0 MF and one has a lot.

    In scenario 1, the one guy without magic find gets benefit from being in a MF group. You might think this is unfair to the other three, but actually, the guy without MF will greatly increase the kill rate of the whole group because his stats are all geared to killing.

    In scenario 2, the 3 players get a MF boost from the one guy with tons of MF. The one guy with MF gets the benefit of 3 players tearing through monsters extremely fast.

    In both cases, MF people and non-MF people benefit equally from having each other in their groups.


    Don't bring your logic in here sir, this is the leecher QQ thread!!!

    All these leechers think they are not only going to be more skilled, but also better geared than all the pugs they join. Thus they in turn deserve far more loot and gold than everyone else in the groups.
    One is never hurt by being given additional choices, only by taking them away.
    A QUADRILLION MAGIC FIND is worthless if you can't kill shit!
  • #47
    Quote from jaclashflash

    Quote from CrazyValheru


    If a player with high mf does more than his share of the damage on a given monster, he gets to keep his full MF on said monster.


    This. I don't know why there can't be a meet in the middle solution. People who are for averaging MF basically come out with a straw man saying "If you are going for MF you have 0 dps, if you go for offensive stats you 1 shot everything."

    At high end gear levels, the difference might be 1-2 hits, if that. Again, we aren't talking blues with MF only as the stats, we are talking rares and legendaries with offensive stats with the added bonus of MF.


    Yah why don't we have the game solve advanced calculus problems while we play as well? I am sure that will work...ohh wait, thats right its not designed to do anything like that, and even if it could be done after months of further delay it would be quite taxing.

    This is the 2nd best method to solve the problem; the 1st is of course the method they chose. Of course its still terrible, because it assumes that the only objective is dps.

    Quote from HeyseusKristos

    I am specifically referring to the phrase "MF IS NOT A FREE STAT!!!" I'm telling you, if you want set pieces at end game, they will come with MF on them. Often in the "set bonus" which in reality is a free stat. Only a fool will go all dps and no mf in the game. Or someone who likes to kill alot more monsters for the same return someone else who does it in less time and effort.


    What a crock of shit, take your semantics horse shit and eat it. Such a comment isn't even worthy of discussion.


    Whoa? Angry much? Why are you so angry? And do you really think there aren't being numbers crunched everytime you click on a monster? But really, my posts #18 and #39 pretty much have my feel on this subject. If you are gonna get abusive, I'll spend my time with better people. Good day to you too.
  • #48
    with items having several different stats, what do you think you'll have instead of MF? the item will already have damage and defensive stats on it. it's highly likely that most, if not all items will have a stat like mf/gf/radius etc...

    i think in most situations it's not going to be trading damage or armor for mf
  • #49
    Quote from Donderion

    This is great thing for coop, now you can have like 2 ''killers'' and 2 ''mf/gf'' persons, which is great for balance, hope it stayed this way, so you can maximize finding stuff per time, to have enough killing and mf/gf great. Really hope it stays this way then coop will really pay off.

    Why not have 4 balanced characters instead? the result would be the same as 2 "killers" and 2 "MF'rs", having people with low resist and low vit getting one shot isn't exactly a great thing for coop :D
  • #50
    Quote from CrazyValheru

    I'm not going to give this guy the benefit of quoting his post to allow the screaming to continue. But as to the, "Magic find is not being a free stat." No one has ever said its a free stat. But lets see if you can follow me here.

    http://us.battle.net...-sovereign-helm We're both wearing this same helm.

    It has 6 stats on it. Lets say that of our 2 items, 5 of the stats are the exactly the same. We're both wizards for simplicity. If you need to see the list of current affixes go for it: http://diablonut.incgamers.com/affixes

    Lets say this item has: 5 offensive affixes and +MF on mine, and 6 offensive affixes on yours, but ATM there don't even seem to be 6 offensive affixes, so your 6th is globe radius or even a defensive stat.

    Its true that MF is not free, but given the alternatives, you can trade a stat for MF and still have the same killing power.


    case in point....hey guys herpty derp, if I outgear people, herp, then I do the same dmg, derp, so I deserve more loots!!

    Ohh wait, thats right that didn't always hold true even before things were averaged. Ohh and ya know there is another problem, ya know like how you set the scenario up on a false pretense, you outgear everyone else....
    One is never hurt by being given additional choices, only by taking them away.
    A QUADRILLION MAGIC FIND is worthless if you can't kill shit!
  • #51
    you need to take into consideration that someone could have higher mf and higher damage than the rest of the party because in the end it comes down to who has the best gear, and whos lucky and who plays the most d3
  • #52
    Quote from jaclashflash

    Quote from Omann

    I think this system is good for whichever end of the spectrum you are on.

    Consider the two situations most people are talking about.

    1. 3 players have a lot of MF and one has 0.

    2. 3 players have 0 MF and one has a lot.

    In scenario 1, the one guy without magic find gets benefit from being in a MF group. You might think this is unfair to the other three, but actually, the guy without MF will greatly increase the kill rate of the whole group because his stats are all geared to killing.

    In scenario 2, the 3 players get a MF boost from the one guy with tons of MF. The one guy with MF gets the benefit of 3 players tearing through monsters extremely fast.

    In both cases, MF people and non-MF people benefit equally from having each other in their groups.


    Don't bring your logic in here sir, this is the leecher QQ thread!!!

    All these leechers think they are not only going to be more skilled, but also better geared than all the pugs they join. Thus they in turn deserve far more loot and gold than everyone else in the groups.


    Ah yes, I see what you're saying. I do try to be constructive and look at topics from every angle. I'll go do that in another thread, haha.

    But one more thought first. Someone mentioned that this new system is like socialism. I think it is pure capitalism. The commodities are MF and Killing Speed. They each have value and by joining a group, you are exchanging benefits to each other. If you feel that your MF is too high for the killing speed of the group, then you join another public group that is more to your liking.

    Sorry, more logic.
  • #53
    You know what I dont like about all this? The main arguement for the change is "It prevents the 400%MF leecher from leaching!"... why is everyone assuming that all MF players will leach? The argument is based on a very rare situation... that an more or less afk MFer joins your game just to run around behind your group and pick up loot. But lets face it thats a rare thing to happen... and the new system doesnt prevent leechers. Now the leecher will just join without MF gear and leech your kills AND lower your MF.

    Lets face it within an average group (with the old system) nobody would have cared how much MF/DPS or whatever someone had. If you have an "average" group with one highMF/lowDPS player, one lowMF/highDPS player and two averageMF/DPS player none of them would care for the stats of the other 3 as long as the group progresses well. If one of them is clearly "worse" than the others you would either ask him to change his gear (if he even HAS other gear... if he is just a new lvl60 guy you cant help it) or kick him... that is if Blizzard gives us a kick feature -_-. Also the thing is you had no way to know how "fast" your teammates are... the only way to get that "info" is to run around and observing them the whole time Oo.

    With the new system everybody will start to observe the other players... if your MF goes down you will observe them to see if they kill faster. If they dont kill faster you will complain if they kill only a little bit faster you will complain... if they kill a lot faster everything is fine. If your MF goes up you will observe their killspeed... if its low you will complain because they are slow (eventhough you get your MF share)... if they kill as fast as you they will complain about YOU. The whole system basically adds a "gear score" to the game... not something that has a good ring to my ears. With that new system we only need a DPS meter to completely "judge" people that join our PuG... Oo

    IMHO the system solves some problems but creates new problems along the way. It stops the old highMF leechers but now adds leecher that leech kills and mf at the same time. It also creates problems within the community (discrimination etc). Overall I just dont like it... it creates new and IMHO worse problems.
  • #54
    In the harsh reality of public games, this will mean that experienced players will not only have their killing speed drained, but also their MF when playing with lesser team mates.

    I'd much prefer a system where everybody is adjusted toward the average by a cerain %
  • #55
    Quote from CrazyValheru

    I'm not going to give this guy the benefit of quoting his post to allow the screaming to continue. But as to the, "Magic find is not being a free stat." No one has ever said its a free stat. But lets see if you can follow me here.

    http://us.battle.net...-sovereign-helm We're both wearing this same helm.

    It has 6 stats on it. Lets say that of our 2 items, 5 of the stats are the exactly the same. We're both wizards for simplicity. If you need to see the list of current affixes go for it: http://diablonut.incgamers.com/affixes

    Lets say this item has: 5 offensive affixes and +MF on mine, and 6 offensive affixes on yours, but ATM there don't even seem to be 6 offensive affixes, so your 6th is globe radius or even a defensive stat.

    Its true that MF is not free, but given the alternatives, you can trade a stat for MF and still have the same killing power.


    You chose a stat which has, for WD's, an offensive purpose with the passive Grave Injustice. And do you really think think that we know all of the affixes right now? Also, I see at least 6 offensive affixes; Critical Chance, Critical Damage, Primary Stat, Attack Speed %, Attacks per Second, Elemental Damage, Damage bonus %, Min/Max damage, +Resources, Resource generation, On hit effects.

    And those are just the ones we know of which are used offensively.
  • #56
    Quote from 7auragis

    I see this kind of situation happening:

    Player A joins the game.
    Player B: hi
    Player A: mf?
    Player B: 60
    Player A leaves the game.
    Player B is sad :(


    How can you possibly fail to realize that before this change it was exactly the same? At least kind of.

    Player A has 50 magic find. He wants to kill things fast, but sacrifices some stats to get more / better drops. Before this change, he would be accepted by random people in a game. At least i would accept that, as long as he pulled his own weight.

    Player B has 200 magic find. He wants to max the big loots, so he sacrificed almost all his stats to get more / better drops. Before this change, he was 100% a freaking leecher, and he wouldnt pull his own weight at all (if items really matter), and i for one would be annoyed as hell knowing he got better loot than me, while doing 10% of the work (with me doing 90% of it, for lesser drops). See the problem?

    With the change though, its going to be averaged. Therefore, whenever someone joins a game, you can either look at it as a big buff to your own mf / gf stats, or as a valuable ally in killing things (still assuming items actually matter when killing things. Levels will likely outweigh secondary stats on items though, so stacking mf + gf will probably be good). But this is why they averaged it. The only way to "make everyone happy", at least the ones who realize the above points.

    Let me clarify that this is of course only true if you actually sacrifice killing power for magic find, gold find and exp increase.
  • #57
    For me personally grouping MF/GF is a horrible idea. As soon as I heard that there was going to be an auction house I stuck with the idea of throwing out MF all together and stacking GF.

    Why spend hours doing boss runs or looking for champion mobs, hoping for items to drop, when I can increase my GF and use the huge increase in gold to buy items at the AH.

    Now this is only guess work, but I guess most people will be stacking MF over GF, and this screws me up in two ways

    1) I join a pub game where everyone is stacking MF, they notice that when I join the average MF has dropped right down, they either ask me how much MF I have, and my reply will be 0% and then kick me, or don't even bother asking and just kick me anyway.

    2) I'm betting I will be one of a very few people stacking pure GF, I join a pub game where most likely no one has really bothered with GF, and the average GF is reduced to a pointless amount, thus throwing my gold hoarding idea straight out the window

    This sucks, really sucks... and now I will spend more time solo than playing multi-player.
  • #58
    Quote from Matowa

    For me personally grouping MF/GF is a horrible idea. As soon as I heard that there was going to be an auction house I stuck with the idea of throwing out MF all together and stacking GF.

    Why spend hours doing boss runs or looking for champion mobs, hoping for items to drop, when I can increase my GF and use the huge increase in gold to buy items at the AH.

    Now this is only guess work, but I guess most people will be stacking MF over GF, and this screws me up in two ways

    1) I join a pub game where everyone is stacking MF, they notice that when I join the average MF has dropped right down, they either ask me how much MF I have, and my reply will be 0% and then kick me, or don't even bother asking and just kick me anyway.

    2) I'm betting I will be one of a very few people stacking pure GF, I join a pub game where most likely no one has really bothered with GF, and the average GF is reduced to a pointless amount, thus throwing my gold hoarding idea straight out the window

    This sucks, really sucks... and now I will spend more time solo than playing multi-player.


    For dedicated farming you're better off either grouping with people with similar goals or going solo. Why? Because everyone either goes for MF/GF or you do it yourself. At least that's how it will go with the new system, with the old system the most effective way to use MF/GF is to leech off of people doing all the work, killing faster then you possibly can alone because you sacrificed stats for MF/GF.
  • #59
    i dont think people understand in the gold auction house stuff is gonna be well freakin expensive especialy since you can just join games and keep redoing quests with a high gold reward your better off rolling mf if you want to go that route and not earn your gear thru random drops or trading with friends
  • #60
    Quote from jaclashflash

    Quote from CrazyValheru

    I'm not going to give this guy the benefit of quoting his post to allow the screaming to continue. But as to the, "Magic find is not being a free stat." No one has ever said its a free stat. But lets see if you can follow me here.

    http://us.battle.net...-sovereign-helm We're both wearing this same helm.

    It has 6 stats on it. Lets say that of our 2 items, 5 of the stats are the exactly the same. We're both wizards for simplicity. If you need to see the list of current affixes go for it: http://diablonut.incgamers.com/affixes

    Lets say this item has: 5 offensive affixes and +MF on mine, and 6 offensive affixes on yours, but ATM there don't even seem to be 6 offensive affixes, so your 6th is globe radius or even a defensive stat.

    Its true that MF is not free, but given the alternatives, you can trade a stat for MF and still have the same killing power.


    case in point....hey guys herpty derp, if I outgear people, herp, then I do the same dmg, derp, so I deserve more loots!!

    Ohh wait, thats right that didn't always hold true even before things were averaged. Ohh and ya know there is another problem, ya know like how you set the scenario up on a false pretense, you outgear everyone else....


    troll much?

    It's quite obvious he's not saying he out gears anyone or anything like that, in fact he's using the same exact item to compare. so if you guys were naked wearing only that helm, he'd have more MF and you'd pick up health globes from further away. You guys kill at the same speed, he has a better chance to get a blue, and you'll steal that health globe from him.

    only read the first page and a half, and it's almost glaringly obvious that you're trolling hard. Either that or you're dumb.
    Quote from Mac_an_tSaoir

    Blizzard keeps this shit up, im going to find me some fucking remora action to roll with. Cause imma shark, shark shark shark shark
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