Catering to the "new" player? Someone had to of understood old games from the start

  • #81
    Quote from Sabvre


    Lol - Yes... you should die 20x during the tutorial. THAT is a challenging game.


    Play Solstice for Nintendo, you can't beat it.
    Playing Diablo since 97. I know nothing and having nothing good to say, I be a troll.
  • #82
    Quote from Slayerviper

    Quote from Sabvre

    Lol - Yes... you should die 20x during the tutorial. THAT is a challenging game.


    Play Solstice for Nintendo, you can't beat it.


    I'm not going to lie. I found Witcher 2 fairly challenging at times. I HAD to google how to beat that big kraken thing....
  • #83
    Quote from Azjenco

    Quote from Lord_Jaroh

    I think your fallacies are running away with you...

    Fallacy? So you think I've got the matter all wrong, blowing it out of proportion?

    No, I will tell you what is ridiculous. When the game was first revealed, due to a rainbow people said this was no longer Diablo. Blizzard turned it into Sunshine Unicorn Islands. When they announced the monk and the demon hunter, people said Blizzard is destroying the lore of the game. When they took out attribute and skill points, they said the game is destroyed and has become Diablo for Dummies. With runes changed, people seem to think it somehow removes choice from the game. And now, they added options to make the game better to pick up for new players, and that makes the game dumbed down, even if the options to remove them are a few clicks away. That's plain lazy and sad.

    So, call it what you want, but my rant wasn't all that far off. People are already blowing issues out of hand. The game is being streamlined to make it more convenient and better to play, not easy and dumb. Games use to be a lot more clunky, and now whenever modern companies attempt to streamline their titles, it either makes people lazy or turned them into naysayers sticking to the 'glory days'.

    Truthfully, it's because whenever most modern companies attempt to "streamline" their titles and make them "more accessible" for the "mainstream audience", they do "dumb it down" so the simplest common denominator can figure it out, which also means that it becomes so simplistic that it insults the intelligence of almost every other person that plays it, or they make it "optimized" for consoles, and in the meantime ruin it for the PC (see Skyrim for a recent example of this). See:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FpigqfcvlM&feature=g-like&context=G254dd26ALT0OeQwAEAA

    Specifically the tutorial info and the "Yeah, I get it" part.

    Now, I'm not saying that Blizzard is "just like every other modern company", however many of their design choices speak of them doing just that. Yes, the options can be altered in the menu, but the problem is, how many people know this? (See the current issues with the "elective mode" checkbox) As well, their tooltips assume that you are less intelligent than a bag of hammers in being able to understand how to play the game. At least give people the option, when installing the game, to avoid the "tutorial-esque" parts of the game that no person with a reasonable amount of intelligence will need (ie, most people that will play Diablo III in the first place).
  • #84
    Quote from m8harry

    Maybe by making D3 not a D2.5 they are opening up their target audience. At the end of the day Blizz has to make money to pay the bills and if by upsetting a % of players to increase the amount of new players they will attract (lets face it like the changes or not your still gunna buy it) they will make more money from it.

    Diablo 2 was/is one of the best selling games of all time; that alone would guarantee that D3 would be a sales success. How much more do they need? When you try to appeal to an ever broadening audience, you end up 'watering down' the experience, it's just an inescapable fact (you can only use 'things' that appeal to everyone, and can't use 'things' that don't appeal to even one group of your target audience). Try to think about it in terms of music. A genre or artist that tries to appeal to more and more people ends up watering down his distinctive style, because he has to eliminate 'things' that alienate possible 'customers'. This is not a good thing.

    Quote from Azjenco

    They took away skill points, which limited you to a few skills that unlocked over time, and replaced it with a system where you can choose a few skills over time.

    I think you just described the same thing: 'skills over time'.

    Quote from Azjenco

    They took out runes, which dropped rarely so building your character was a protracted process, and gave a system where you build your skill runes through protracted leveling.

    Not true, lower level runes would drop frequently in the old system. You wanting an Alabaster rune and not having one wouldn't last more than 10 minutes, probably less than that (according to J.Wilson, they would 'drop like candy'). And don't tell me a build relies on level 7 runes, or it would fail. Level 7 runes were a nice long-term goal, not necessarily a huge jump in power, but a nice thing to strive for (like searching for better gear even when you can already beat the hardest boss in the game).

    Quote from solocommander

    How the rune stones turned into skill runes is a good change when looking at how it solves inventory problems

    There were no inventory problems (except with the short-lived un-attuned rune system). 5types*7ranks=35 spaces (if stackable, which would only make sense).

    Quote from solocommander

    But my first thought was if we had 5 different types of rune stones with 7 levels each, as compared to now we have 5 skill rune options, where did the other 2 levels go and what happened to the skill annimation that would have been on a level 7 rune or a different type of rune stone ?

    I don't think you understand how the old system worked. Only different rune TYPES (of which there were 5) gave new animations; rune RANKS (there were 7) only gave better statistical bonuses.

    Quote from solocommander

    Either way patch 13 is definitely a well deserved change to the game mechanics that makes gear a whole lot more important than before, rather than trying to find 5 different rune stone at level 7 each.

    Again, you didn't need level 7 runes, they were sort of the cherry on top of the cake.


    EDIT: @Lord_Jaroh: love that video. Spot on.
  • #85
    I've nothing against the simple tool tips. Thats actually a pretty smart move from blizzard. The vast majority of people simply dislike calculation and thats not a matter of judging the brain power of the players. Understand what 323% weapon damage over 2.5 seconds with 4 seconds cooldown is in terms of DPS requires some ultra basic elementar math. But it doesn't matter how basic it is, it's a annoyance if you dont deal with numbers daily.

    Tooltips with fair amount of information only existed for games were permanent choices were relevant. It's impossible to decide between fire ball and inferno if i don't even kno the skill's damage. But if i can just test both skills i don't need a bunch of numbers in my game. When you play a FPS do the damage of each weapon pops up in the screen in the momment you grab it ? When you play a fightning game does the damage of each move and special move appears in the move list ?

    Just think about all the game you've played and you will see what i mean. Specific skill description only exist in games were you allocate points. Thats not the case of D3 anymore.
    "In time the hissing of her sanity
    Faded out her voice and soiled her name
    And like marked pages in a diary
    Everything seemed clean that is unstained
    The incoherent talk of ordinary days
    Why would we really need to live?
    Decide what is clear and what's within a haze
    What you should take and what to give" - Opeth
  • #86
    Quote from italofoca

    I've nothing against the simple tool tips. Thats actually a pretty smart move from blizzard. The vast majority of people simply dislike calculation and thats not a matter of judging the brain power of the players. Understand what 323% weapon damage over 2.5 seconds with 4 seconds cooldown is in terms of DPS requires some ultra basic elementar math. But it doesn't matter how basic it is, it's a annoyance if you dont deal with numbers daily.

    Tooltips with fair amount of information only existed for games were permanent choices were relevant. It's impossible to decide between fire ball and inferno if i don't even kno the skill's damage. But if i can just test both skills i don't need a bunch of numbers in my game. When you play a FPS do the damage of each weapon pops up in the screen in the momment you grab it ? When you play a fightning game does the damage of each move and special move appears in the move list ?

    Just think about all the game you've played and you will see what i mean. Specific skill description only exist in games were you allocate points. Thats not the case of D3 anymore.

    Those aren't the tooltips that I refer to. Those I would rather see the more specific info, but it's no real biggie. However, the tips to "Open your inventory to equip an item" and "Click on this to attack it" and "You picked up a magic item. Open your inventory to see it" and "you unlocked a skill. Open your skill menu to see it", et al. These are not needed. If you are a person that needs these kind of tips, you should not be breathing, let alone playing a video game! And they are everywhere! The hand-holding in this game is beyond necessary, and that is what I take issue with. Streamlining is one thing, but treating everyone as an idiot...that's another thing entirely.
  • #87
    Really people argue and go ballistics over the most trivial things. Firstly, blizzard wants to improve the game to make it more accessable and some interpret as dumbing the game to casuals. They improve the rune/skills so that everyone has a decent shot to get to use the system, but same set of people with tunnel vision scream bloody murder.
    If these same set of peoples only enjoyment of a game is to farm 24/7 on inferno level to get all the high level runes? Or to make their 100th char so they can individualize it with stats? I am really amaze at these same set of people thinking diablo 3 is still diablo 2. Come on, diablo 2 has powerleveling exploits... has hacks to dupe high level runes, rare items, and uniques.... or u can even buy them from u know which sites... I believe diablo 3 will not have these cuz blizzard has put in a real money RMAH system they cant afford to have any such illegal activities or it will be bad for diablo 3 and people will quit playing.
    My advice if any improvements made doesnt impact u in anyway to enjoy the game why bother making a mountain out of a molehill? If u want difficulty, why not fight naked? Or better still just use normal attacks. I am sure u are pretty unique doing it from lvl1 to 60.
  • #88
    Quote from Kizzarse

    Really people argue and go ballistics over the most trivial things. Firstly, #1-blizzard wants to improve the game to make it more accessable and some interpret as dumbing the game to casuals. They improve the rune/skills so that everyone has a decent shot to get to use the system, but same set of people with tunnel vision scream bloody murder.
    If these same set of peoples only enjoyment of a game is to farm 24/7 on inferno level to get all the high level runes? Or to make their 100th char so they can individualize it with stats? I am really amaze at these same set of people thinking diablo 3 is still diablo 2. #2-Come on, diablo 2 has powerleveling exploits... has hacks to dupe high level runes, rare items, and uniques.... or u can even buy them from u know which sites... I believe diablo 3 will not have these cuz blizzard has put in a real money RMAH system they cant afford to have any such illegal activities or it will be bad for diablo 3 and people will quit playing.
    #3-My advice if any improvements made doesnt impact u in anyway to enjoy the game why bother making a mountain out of a molehill? #4-If u want difficulty, why not fight naked? Or better still just use normal attacks. I am sure u are pretty unique doing it from lvl1 to 60.


    #1- because it is. It's inherent: when you try to appeal to a broader audience, you have to water down whatever you're selling, to appeal to the lowest common denominator. It's just a fact, you can't argue with it.

    #2- for you, maybe. I never got rushed, never had duped items, never spent any real money (except on the game itself). I only played online with real-life friends, anyway, so none of us did any of that.

    #3- Now you're just contradicting yourself. Power-levelling doesn't affect you, yet you were ranting against it 3 sentences back.

    #4- Because fighting against adversity is fun, while purposefully gimping yourself is definitely not fun and gets real old real fast.
  • #89
    Quote from KageKaze

    The beautiful thing about blizzard is they think long term. They aren't short sighted like EA or even Bobby "Take the fun out of making games" Kotick... and trust me I'm super glad Blizz is still autonomous from Activision. The goal here is player retention.

    It's exactly this. For us it's hard to imagine, because we grew up with D1, D2 ad whatnot. We got eased into finding our way quickly around these games. But I have friends who never played any kind of rpg before and are planning to play D3. I can imagine that some extra pointer here and there would just improve their playing experience. Heck, I remember watching a let's play of the D3 demo by the guys from the Yogscast, experienced players. One of them hadn't played Diablo before, and he sucked It was horrible to watch. If they made atc 1 normal harder, or the interface less simple, these players would be discouraged right away, and that's not what the company wants.

    The same goes for the "play normal before you can access HC". Do you really think that all players who have never played Diablo before fully realize right from the start what "hardcore mode" entails? That this is a game where you spend a lot of time building your character and that's all gone if you die just once? Those players will never play again if somehow they ended up thinking hardcore mode would be a good idea for a first character. We may think "good riddance", but that's not something a company wants to put its customers through.
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