Catering to the "new" player? Someone had to of understood old games from the start

  • #41
    Quote from Inf

    Modern gamers are concidered idiots by the game designers. Back in the day you sat down and learned by playing and it was good! You didn't need a tutorial because it was all kind of self-explanatory (atleast the good ones were). Take a look at Egoraptor's sequelitis where he talks about Mega Man X, he really hits his head on the nail when it comes to modern game design (it's very funny too if you havn't seen it). :D

    Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FpigqfcvlM


    Thank you for sharing this video. So many good points there. It actually made me realize a lot of what I have been missing in games lately, and pointed out how annoying all those tips are during gameplay. Such a good video.
    Playing a Wizard. Looking for Demon Hunters to play with.
  • #42
    Quote from EngageQuadLaser

    Quote from hoboman27

    And to Engagequadlaser, not all of us are like that. I for one am just concerned that these many many guiding features (who knows what else they have in store) are going to get in the way of our regular gameplay. Currently the skill UI is a good example of how they have to spend time to create an Elective Mode that creates a hassle for regular players, just so that they can have a system that tells new players which skill to put on which button. In addition to that, those 'new' players will become experienced players and despise this system later down the road.


    How exactly are they going to 'get in your way'? Are the tooltips on your screen so big that they get in the way of your mouse clicks? Why point to something such as the skill UI, which is OBVIOUSLY in its first iteration, as evidence? You know it's not final. For christ's sake, there's elements that overlap and obscure others.

    So again, how exactly are you being inconvenienced by these measures?

    Quote from sionofdarkness

    Quote from Inf

    Modern gamers are concidered idiots by the game designers. Back in the day you sat down and learned by playing and it was good! You didn't need a tutorial because it was all kind of self-explanatory (atleast the good ones were). Take a look at Egoraptor's sequelitis where he talks about Mega Man X, he really hits his head on the nail when it comes to modern game design (it's very funny too if you havn't seen it). :D

    Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FpigqfcvlM


    Fuck man, so glad to have watched this. Just yesterday at work I was talking to my buddy about the new rune system changes. I brought up the point of why not just have it explained in a game manual? The thing that I cannot understand is that; all new players inevitably will become an experienced player. They will play, figure things out, and become experienced. Experienced players will NEVER revert to being a new player. So by this logic ultimately the majority of players will be experienced. Why not cater to this? Blizzard emphasizes so heavily on pick up and play and simple to figure out, yet within a week at most people will have caught on to this shit and be wanting something more challenging and stimulating, not something dumbed down. And unfortunately you won't find something like that until an expansion. This is why WoW's sub's drop so dramatically and the hardcore players plow through new content in less than a month and then quit.

    /rant


    The video actually explains why they DON'T have it in a game manual... because it's better to teach as you play...

    Yes, eventually everyone will be experienced. By that point, there will be NO MORE TOOLTIPS, and they can go into elective mode if they want. So again, how exactly are YOU being hurt by their decisions to provide some help for newer players? Help that you're QUICKLY going to blast through and probably never have to deal with again.

    All I see is another unfounded whine post about "wahhhhhh! wahhhhh! catering to casuals! How? Umm... I don't know..."


    Uhm Well the UI BLOWS CHUNKS, The way they sorted the skills and everything is just terrible. without "whine" threads they'd say oh look no ones complained and it's awesome lets leave it. Then we all get fucked. so thank these "whine" Threads for getting things changed.

    Second To an earlier post you made, I have no idea why everyone who says Casuals has to be a "hardcore", and masochistic asshole, I say casuals as someone who's going to pick up their first arpg and play it for a few months. They are casual, i.e they play it casually and at leisure not like most of us here on this forum will do. To say we're all stupid for saying a game is making things for casual players is idiotic in itself. You can't deny the fact that they've made certain aspects of the game easier for the masses. Just look at Normal, Nightmare, Hell, and Inferno. They made normal so easy a baby could play it. So they then added Inferno to balance out with something only hardcore players will do. So clearly they are catering to casuals here. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, I'm just pointing out that it is a true statement. They've purposely made the game easier. Simple as that.
    Not even Death will save you from Diablo Bunny's Cuteness!


  • #43
    Quote from EngageQuadLaser

    Quote from hoboman27

    And to Engagequadlaser, not all of us are like that. I for one am just concerned that these many many guiding features (who knows what else they have in store) are going to get in the way of our regular gameplay. Currently the skill UI is a good example of how they have to spend time to create an Elective Mode that creates a hassle for regular players, just so that they can have a system that tells new players which skill to put on which button. In addition to that, those 'new' players will become experienced players and despise this system later down the road.


    How exactly are they going to 'get in your way'? Are the tooltips on your screen so big that they get in the way of your mouse clicks? Why point to something such as the skill UI, which is OBVIOUSLY in its first iteration, as evidence? You know it's not final. For christ's sake, there's elements that overlap and obscure others.

    So again, how exactly are you being inconvenienced by these measures?



    First, you cannot deny that they are putting effort and time towards this goal of having a guided experience. I'm not saying it's bad, but it's overly done, and a lot of this effort i feel is going to be a little wasted.

    The simplified tool tips for example, if you are an experienced rpg player, but never touched diablo, never followed the beta like we are doing right now, what would your first thought be when you see those tool-tips (punch the enemy hard)? would you know if there's actually an option to toggle that off? or press ctrl?

    Currently there's people reporting of map markers showing on map telling you exactly where to go in a dungeon... do you really want that?

    You can actually see it here, on Kagekaze's playthrough, at the last 5 minute, you can see an arrow telling you which way to go to get to the Royal Crypt. It was not there in prior patches.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJZJsJSDOkc&feature=plcp&context=C36617dbUDOEgsToPDskJ9O8dBReKAeBy3FOJIH6cp

    What's the fun in exploring if you are guided to the goal?


    As for the UI, if they publish it through the beta patch, they are at least some what confident that this is the correct direction, which is to sacrifice usability for guided experience. And this should be where we need to get concerned. If this is the direction that they are going with, what other mechanism might they sacrifice in the future for the sake of making the game more guided/accessible for new players? Would it be worth it to make that sacrifice? In the long term?

    To me, I would never agree to exchange gameplay/usability, for a more scripted guidance for new players. Because strong game features is key for a great game, and it is long term, but new players are not. New players will get experienced, and those features will serve little purpose to them.


    And last but not least, we are all reasonable people having a reasonable discussion, please don't call people idiots.
  • #44
    Quote from Nastai

    Thank you for sharing this video. So many good points there. It actually made me realize a lot of what I have been missing in games lately, and pointed out how annoying all those tips are during gameplay. Such a good video.


    No problem. I love that video, I'm glad others enjoy it too :)

    Edit: Woah, that QuestHelper arrow on the minimap was kind of lame... -_- It really bothers me how modern games are getting so easy. The best games I know are from the NES/SNES days and some of those games are REALLY hard. Some games I could never beat as a kid, but it was fine. The challenge was fun and the satisfaction for getting further into the game was greater. I know you can't compare NES games to Diablo and that this is only the first part of Normal difficulty Act 1 (bla bla) but what's the point of adding QuestHelpers to games who are supposed to have randomized dungeons? What's wrong with having the player explore a little? I know that Normal won't be a challenge for anyone as it's not intended to be but come on. Guess it saves time for people who just want to plow through normal to get to where the game really starts though :P

    Atleast Super Meat Boy did it right... :Thumbs Up: I hope Diablo III follows the same curve in difficulty:
    Starts off super easy (check) and ends really hard!
  • #45
    Quote from hoboman27

    Quote from EngageQuadLaser

    Quote from hoboman27

    And to Engagequadlaser, not all of us are like that. I for one am just concerned that these many many guiding features (who knows what else they have in store) are going to get in the way of our regular gameplay. Currently the skill UI is a good example of how they have to spend time to create an Elective Mode that creates a hassle for regular players, just so that they can have a system that tells new players which skill to put on which button. In addition to that, those 'new' players will become experienced players and despise this system later down the road.


    How exactly are they going to 'get in your way'? Are the tooltips on your screen so big that they get in the way of your mouse clicks? Why point to something such as the skill UI, which is OBVIOUSLY in its first iteration, as evidence? You know it's not final. For christ's sake, there's elements that overlap and obscure others.

    So again, how exactly are you being inconvenienced by these measures?



    First, you cannot deny that they are putting effort and time towards this goal of having a guided experience. I'm not saying it's bad, but it's overly done, and a lot of this effort i feel is going to be a little wasted.

    The simplified tool tips for example, if you are an experienced rpg player, but never touched diablo, never followed the beta like we are doing right now, what would your first thought be when you see those tool-tips (punch the enemy hard)? would you know if there's actually an option to toggle that off? or press ctrl?

    Currently there's people reporting of map markers showing on map telling you exactly where to go in a dungeon... do you really want that?

    You can actually see it here, on Kagekaze's playthrough, at the last 5 minute, you can see an arrow telling you which way to go to get to the Royal Crypt. It was not there in prior patches.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJZJsJSDOkc&feature=plcp&context=C36617dbUDOEgsToPDskJ9O8dBReKAeBy3FOJIH6cp

    What's the fun in exploring if you are guided to the goal?


    As for the UI, if they publish it through the beta patch, they are at least some what confident that this is the correct direction, which is to sacrifice usability for guided experience. And this should be where we need to get concerned. If this is the direction that they are going with, what other mechanism might they sacrifice in the future for the sake of making the game more guided/accessible for new players? Would it be worth it to make that sacrifice? In the long term?

    To me, I would never agree to exchange gameplay/usability, for a more scripted guidance for new players. Because strong game features is key for a great game, and it is long term, but new players are not. New players will get experienced, and those features will serve little purpose to them.


    And last but not least, we are all reasonable people having a reasonable discussion, please don't call people idiots.


    Ok I watched this video but it seems the guide is only on the overworld map. It never seems to show up in the dungeons. Is there time stamp for when it is used in the dungeon?
  • #46
    Quote from Inf

    Modern gamers are concidered idiots by the game designers. Back in the day you sat down and learned by playing and it was good! You didn't need a tutorial because it was all kind of self-explanatory (atleast the good ones were). Take a look at Egoraptor's sequelitis where he talks about Mega Man X, he really hits his head on the nail when it comes to modern game design (it's very funny too if you havn't seen it). :D

    Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FpigqfcvlM


    This is win. So is megaman.
  • #47
    Quote from hoboman27

    First, you cannot deny that they are putting effort and time towards this goal of having a guided experience. I'm not saying it's bad, but it's overly done, and a lot of this effort i feel is going to be a little wasted.


    Who are you to say it's overdone? You're obviously not a casual gamer, and it'd be very difficult if not impossible for you to go back and put your mentality in the shoes of one. Blizzard has a lot more experience on the matter of playtesting for casuals than YOU do, they've put hundreds and hundreds of casuals through their testing phases and monitored them for the issues that REAL casuals have, not what a hardcore who THINKS he knows what casuals think/do. So I think I'm going to go with their standard of what constitutes 'overly done', if you don't mind.

    Quote from hoboman27
    The simplified tool tips for example, if you are an experienced rpg player, but never touched diablo, never followed the beta like we are doing right now, what would your first thought be when you see those tool-tips (punch the enemy hard)? would you know if there's actually an option to toggle that off? or press ctrl?


    That is NOT an example of getting in your way, which is what I asked you for. Because you can disable simplified tooltips with a checkbox. Done. Next?

    Quote from hoboman27
    Currently there's people reporting of map markers showing on map telling you exactly where to go in a dungeon... do you really want that?

    You can actually see it here, on Kagekaze's playthrough, at the last 5 minute, you can see an arrow telling you which way to go to get to the Royal Crypt. It was not there in prior patches.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJZJsJSDOkc&feature=plcp&context=C36617dbUDOEgsToPDskJ9O8dBReKAeBy3FOJIH6cp

    What's the fun in exploring if you are guided to the goal?


    Exactly, it wasn't there in prior patches. How do you know this isn't a glitch? It doesn't happen anywhere else except this one instance, and no further. How do you know it doesn't occur on normal only? How about we wait until we have the full picture before we start jumping to random conclusions, yes?

    Quote from hoboman27
    As for the UI, if they publish it through the beta patch, they are at least some what confident that this is the correct direction, which is to sacrifice usability for guided experience. And this should be where we need to get concerned. If this is the direction that they are going with, what other mechanism might they sacrifice in the future for the sake of making the game more guided/accessible for new players? Would it be worth it to make that sacrifice? In the long term?


    This whole statement from you makes some GROSS assumptions you have no basis for and cannot prove at all. You falsely assume that because they publish something in a beta patch that that is the direction they're headed, when we have countless examples of them doing complete 180's in the past. You falsely assume that they have intentionally sacrificed usability for a guided experience, when the UI is BLATANTLY, OBVIOUSLY A FIRST ATTEMPT, and then top it off with an awesome logical fallacy to further drive home the point you don't actually have a legitimate argument; slippery slope. "If this goes through, THEN JUST IMAGINE WHAT ELSE WILL GO THROUGH!1!!!"

    Knock it off. You're smarter than this nonsense above.
  • #48
    Quote from hoboman27

    Currently there's people reporting of map markers showing on map telling you exactly where to go in a dungeon... do you really want that?

    You can actually see it here, on Kagekaze's playthrough, at the last 5 minute, you can see an arrow telling you which way to go to get to the Royal Crypt. It was not there in prior patches.
    *snip*
    What's the fun in exploring if you are guided to the goal?


    I didn't even really notice the arrow most of the time even while recording that, to be honest. I'm usually focused on the world and the monsters. However, I do kind of like the arrow for 2 reasons.

    1) Back in Diablo 2, a ton of people used maphack (even me) in order to get to the end quickly. This was usually because boss runs were the fastest form of loot. In this case, I like it in case I'm on a quest and might not have a lot of time to play. I can quickly get to the next checkpoint and leave without missing progress. It's a minor convenience, but I think blizzard realized so many people had map hacks they might as well bake it in.

    2) most of the time I intend to explore and find all the quests and treasure. By having an arrow, I know not to go that way first, which would cause me to double back. So you see, it can be useful if you want it to be. I don't really think it's a problem if one person wants to use it to skip exploration it doesn't hurt how I will play the game in any way.

    Also, keep in mind that not all parts of Cathedral have the arrow. Some of the deeper, more elaborate parts do, granted, but not all.
    Diablo 3 playthroughs and guides via Kagekaze's Domain or Twitch TV
    Come on by and comment on YouTube or chat on Twitch, twitch chat is often watched
  • #49
    Im a Little shocked they put something like that to "Guide you" to your destination all the trouble they whent through to try and keep maphack outta the game but lest face it by the time the game was done and a room full of mobs was a joke who didnt use it to run to the boss farm, rinse repeat. Maybe this way they can focus on some of the more important elements like keeping REAL cheats out and continuing the epic franchise of amazing loot, maybe just increase drop rates on higher dificulty and from the sounds of the new mode!!!!

    They just might be making a mode designed for the HARDCORE players, something like a raid Anyone know how big of a group is required and the level "cap" of sorts as I have seen they will out level players which I think is great... tho worries me they might be turning this into "World of diablo" as long as its not the point A grab X Point B kill y. do your dance then run to Point C and gloat.
    Oh wait your gloating and become a new even more interesting now you have to go to point X Y AND z! then return....

    Also anyone have a good resourse for the crafting info, im trying to comb through the massive info and getting sucked further down the rabbit hole 1 page at a time... Starting to fear if I dont get a beta invite my sanity might explode!
  • #50
    Diablo is diablo, you kill stuff and you get loot, and then you do it again, and again, and again. Eventually without cheating you might get something worth the effort, the enjoyment in the game is getting amazing gear. Mechanics are mechanics, what makes a game great is having fun! You can theorize a game until your blue in the balls, but it is much deeper than just yout ability to understand something. For all you know, you could spend 4 years learning every detail about diablo 3 and become a master at whatever it is, and then BAM,everything changes and you spend another few years learning that. Its pshycological in this industry, and blizzard knows that. Online games are always ever changing, and its like that for a reason, dont under estimate the power of simplisity. The Chess theory the other guy mentioned, is a perfect example, even if you dont agree with it.
  • #51
    Also, keep in mind that not all parts of Cathedral have the arrow. Some of the deeper, more elaborate parts do, granted, but not all.


    I'm fairly certain no dungeons have the quest arrows, (the Defiled Crypts for exampe) that was just a specific instance of the GIANT QUEST DOOR being pointed out for you. Look at other instances of dungeon exploration and the arrow always disappears. The arrow is only there to guide you to key locations, but exploration is still there both in finding places off the beaten path and simply when you're in a dungeon itself, which is where the maze navigation aspect comes to the forefront. (Though I don't think it's all that important, the game -- at it's core -- is about killing monsters more than anything else.)

    Now, if you want to talk about quest markers in Elders Scrolls. That's a different story.

    Im a Little shocked they put something like that to "Guide you" to your destination all the trouble they whent through to try and keep maphack outta the game but lest face it by the time the game was done and a room full of mobs was a joke who didnt use it to run to the boss farm, rinse repeat.


    Knowing exactly where to go won't be as useful in this game because in Inferno you're not speeding to the next boss, but searching out challenging elites to take down for your loot purposes, and those could be anywhere.
  • #52
    Quote from EngageQuadLaser

    Who are you to say it's overdone? You're obviously not a casual gamer, and it'd be very difficult if not impossible for you to go back and put your mentality in the shoes of one. Blizzard has a lot more experience on the matter of playtesting for casuals than YOU do, they've put hundreds and hundreds of casuals through their testing phases and monitored them for the issues that REAL casuals have, not what a hardcore who THINKS he knows what casuals think/do. So I think I'm going to go with their standard of what constitutes 'overly done', if you don't mind.

    That is NOT an example of getting in your way, which is what I asked you for. Because you can disable simplified tooltips with a checkbox. Done. Next?

    Exactly, it wasn't there in prior patches. How do you know this isn't a glitch? It doesn't happen anywhere else except this one instance, and no further. How do you know it doesn't occur on normal only? How about we wait until we have the full picture before we start jumping to random conclusions, yes?

    This whole statement from you makes some GROSS assumptions you have no basis for and cannot prove at all. You falsely assume that because they publish something in a beta patch that that is the direction they're headed, when we have countless examples of them doing complete 180's in the past. You falsely assume that they have intentionally sacrificed usability for a guided experience, when the UI is BLATANTLY, OBVIOUSLY A FIRST ATTEMPT, and then top it off with an awesome logical fallacy to further drive home the point you don't actually have a legitimate argument; slippery slope. "If this goes through, THEN JUST IMAGINE WHAT ELSE WILL GO THROUGH!1!!!"

    Knock it off. You're smarter than this nonsense above.



    Just a couple of things, I'll keep this short:

    I'm actually a very very casual gamer, maybe a couple hours a week, I don't even have a dedicated videocard at the moment (waiting for kepler come on nvidia!)

    When I say "overly done" I should've made it clear that's my opinion

    The example of the tooltips is not to show what got in MY way, but what can get into regular players way, those people who does not follow D3 patch changes like we do, and does not know to press ctrl, and the option toggle.
    Isn't that what we are talking about? it's not about us, but the general gamers out there, the casual gamers out there, the mainstream gamers out there.

    Lastly, even though it is the beta, the changes and additions they made are done for a reason, and have gone through internal testing. These changes has to be first thought up by the designers, for a reason, brainstormed, designed and implemented into the game. It then went through internal testing and the internal testers believe the change have carried out their original reason rather well, so they release it to the beta testers. Even though it may not be the final version of it, it gives you a glimpse of what they have in their head and what they are planning to convey the game to be. Since several of their changes have pointed to the issue we are discussing, it is quite logical to connect that dot.



    KageKaze! really like your videos, good to hear from you, hope you didn't mind me posting your videos everywhere.
    I just feel that by having the arrow, you know where your destination is, and it takes out the "geez where the hell is it!?" out of it, and you get the "ok just follow the arrow"

    In bigger dungeons it can be frustrating after a while if you can't find it, but I feel the experience of searching for the unknown, the suspense, makes a game engaging.
  • #53
    Quote from hoboman27

    hope you didn't mind me posting your videos everywhere.


    Nah, I never mind that. It's free publicity. :) Actually been getting a lot of subs lately so I guess I'm doing something right.

    Quote from hoboman27

    I just feel that by having the arrow, you know where your destination is, and it takes out the "geez where the hell is it!?" out of it, and you get the "ok just follow the arrow"

    In bigger dungeons it can be frustrating after a while if you can't find it, but I feel the experience of searching for the unknown, the suspense, makes a game engaging.


    I definitely understand where you're coming from on that. There's obviously pros and cons for having that system in place at all. If it's not always there for dungeons then it might be okay, then you can get that exploration. I don't think it existed in places like the Den of Evil.

    Overall this has been a pretty good conversation, if getting a little heated at times. This is why there is no 'right' way to do things in game design, everyone has their own opinion on the matter and you can't please everyone. Just shows we're all passionate about the game.
    Diablo 3 playthroughs and guides via Kagekaze's Domain or Twitch TV
    Come on by and comment on YouTube or chat on Twitch, twitch chat is often watched
  • #54
    Quote from Uldyssian

    Well I was about 13 when I played Diablo 1 and I had no trouble figuring out that system. Same when I was 15 and played Diablo 2. Not to mention all the other games out there. It should also be known that I am really bad at being "good" at games (Didn't raid successfully til LK patch in Wrath for example) so this isn't about gamer ego.

    While I do appreciate that they are easing those who wouldn't inherently understand some mechanics (my girlfriend benefited from the tutorial aspects and ease of use when she tried out the beta) it's saddening to see that even basic systems are too much for those who buy the games to process and enjoy handling.

    I think that is the big problem. The game industry is, like any form of entertainment, a product of those who consume it. People as a whole seem completely disinterested with the details of games. Sure the runestone system was an inventory hog and perhaps not the smoothest application of the system. But there are some elements in these rpgs that add a depth of nuance to absorbing the mindset of the characters you play. Taking time to read tomes rather than hearing them as ipod audiobooks while you smash face is another example. Immersion becomes lost for the sake of a certain flow of one aspect of the game.

    This is all rehashed opinions I am sure but I was in the beta yesterday just thinking about how some of the old elements of these games that are hacked away for the sake of streamlining were actually parts that took you deeper into a world.

    When I think of WoW I can say that while Wrath was a better flowing section of the overall game Vanilla and parts of TBC were actually far more memorable in the long term because of the larger investments of time and energy I put in as a whole. The music in the orc starting zones strike much more of a personal chord than the arguably more beautifully constructed soundtracks of Northrend.


    I would have to disagree with you on this point. The Action/RPG genre is one of the kindest and easiest types of games for people to play. You really just have to spam your skills and watch your orbs. My wife is not a big video game player. However, when there is a new ARPG to play i get it because it is something easy to handle.
  • #55
    Quote from hoboman27

    I'm actually a very very casual gamer, maybe a couple hours a week, I don't even have a dedicated videocard at the moment (waiting for kepler come on nvidia!)


    In the context of this discussion we're not talking about the amount of hours you play, we're talking about your formal game knowledge. You have plenty of it already. For purposes of this discussion, you're not a casual gamer.

    Quote from hoboman27
    The example of the tooltips is not to show what got in MY way, but what can get into regular players way, those people who does not follow D3 patch changes like we do, and does not know to press ctrl, and the option toggle.
    Isn't that what we are talking about? it's not about us, but the general gamers out there, the casual gamers out there, the mainstream gamers out there.


    And by and large, the simplified tooltips are a great tool for casual gamers (casual as in those who may have no formal gaming experience whatsoever). There have been several posts on other forums already detailing how complete novices have benefited from the new, simplified tooltips. You might now, because as already mentioned, you're not new to gaming or Diablo or RPG's. If you like, I can post these examples of people benefiting. But the fact remains; simplified tooltips serve a very useful purpose. And if they get in your way, they can be disabled. Period.

    Quote from hoboman27
    Lastly, even though it is the beta, the changes and additions they made are done for a reason, and have gone through internal testing. These changes has to be first thought up by the designers, for a reason, brainstormed, designed and implemented into the game. It then went through internal testing and the internal testers believe the change have carried out their original reason rather well, so they release it to the beta testers. Even though it may not be the final version of it, it gives you a glimpse of what they have in their head and what they are planning to convey the game to be. Since several of their changes have pointed to the issue we are discussing, it is quite logical to connect that dot.


    Yes, it gives you a glimpse. And it's not final. And you have no evidence whatsoever to suggest that they have intentionally sacrificed functionality for the sake of catering to casuals.

    Looking at the current skill UI, and taking into consideration what a disorganized mess it is, the fact that the arrows overlap useful information, the fact that it's buggy, and other such things which demonstrate that the interface isn't finalized... it should be COMPLETELY OBVIOUS to EVERYONE that what you have now is NOWHERE NEAR FINALIZED. And that likely ALL YOUR COMPLAINTS ABOUT LOSING USABILITY TO A GUIDED EXPERIENCE WILL BE FIXED.

    Yes, we get it. You would absolutely love to make the correlation that because the first iteration of an interface that we've seen isn't perfect that it constitutes proof that they've intentionally sacrificed quality in order to cater to the casuals. And I'm saying, that argument is retarded.

    Edit - I just replayed through the beta again - no arrow pointing the way to the royal crypts.
  • #56
    Quote from EngageQuadLaser

    Yes, it gives you a glimpse. And it's not final. And you have no evidence whatsoever to suggest that they have intentionally sacrificed functionality for the sake of catering to casuals.

    Looking at the current skill UI, and taking into consideration what a disorganized mess it is, the fact that the arrows overlap useful information, the fact that it's buggy, and other such things which demonstrate that the interface isn't finalized... it should be COMPLETELY OBVIOUS to EVERYONE that what you have now is NOWHERE NEAR FINALIZED. And that likely ALL YOUR COMPLAINTS ABOUT LOSING USABILITY TO A GUIDED EXPERIENCE WILL BE FIXED.


    Yes, we get it. You would absolutely love to make the correlation that because the first iteration of an interface that we've seen isn't perfect that it constitutes proof that they've intentionally sacrificed quality in order to cater to the casuals. And I'm saying, that argument is retarded.




    I think you mis-understood my position on several points, I'm not saying what they are doing wont have it's benefits, but I am here to discuss at what cost, it's value in the long term, and to what limit.

    It can be helpful to new players, but this usefulness is short lived to them. And not to mention anyone who spends 60 dollars on a game is at least somewhat interested in the game to learn about it through playing. Does newbie friendly games bring in more players? in the long term? Or does a good and well polished game bring in more players in the long term?

    So my stance is that instead of creating these extensive guiding features (simplified tooltips and new UI for example), Blizzard should use this manpower and time focusing on gameplay and polish. Guiding features are fine, but there's a limit where extra investment would not be worth it anymore, or the diminishing of returns.

    And why couldn't we discuss an UI that's not finalized? It's beta feedback period right? An unfinished UI still have it's intentions displayed clearly no?

    While the UI is definitely horrible and got its bugs. The main contrast of the current UI and the previous one was the introduction of multiple and defined skill categories, which are linked to specific buttons. It is there to serve as another hand holding feature where the game tells you which type of skill to put on which button. This is the core design, and not any bug or cosmetic feature. I see this as going overboard with their guided game-play philosophy (again my opinion just to make it clear for you). Going back to earlier, how useful will this feature be? Is it worth it in the long term to completely scrapped the original design just to add this feature, and have to now work around it.

    I hope this clears it up for you, you see i'm not against them having some "press x to shoot" guides, but there's a point where those many many features will become redundant and have short lived value, and may even hinder their development process or create conflict with other features.



    Kagekaze: You sir sure is passionate about the game, recording at 4am in the morning???
  • #57
    Quote from hoboman27

    It can be helpful to new players, but this usefulness is short lived to them. And not to mention anyone who spends 60 dollars on a game is at least somewhat interested in the game to learn about it through playing. Does newbie friendly games bring in more players? in the long term? Or does a good and well polished game bring in more players in the long term?


    I'll field this question. Blizzard has already made the case that a more newbie friendly game is much better for them, and thus for business, as a whole. Blizzard put out stats that said many new players in World of Warcraft did not make it to level 10 because the gaming interface did nothing to help them figure out how to play and where to go. Now, WoW is hugely advanced compared to Diablo in terms of gameplay mechanics, so that's understandable. That's also not to say that you can't go TOO far with hand holding. A middle ground is really needed.

    As far as players paying $60 and not wanting to spend time to learn it.. well that can happen, after all, some newbies might play on a friend's system. This happens all the time. As far as Blizzard's business model is concerned, this is definitely the best choice.

    Now, we should never assume that resources are being taken away from polishing the game to make the UI more user friendly. Usually the team working on the UI and the tooltips is very different from the team working on gameplay mechanics. We don't have to sacrifice one for the other.
    Diablo 3 playthroughs and guides via Kagekaze's Domain or Twitch TV
    Come on by and comment on YouTube or chat on Twitch, twitch chat is often watched
  • #58
    Quote from EngageQuadLaser

    Exactly, it wasn't there in prior patches. How do you know this isn't a glitch? It doesn't happen anywhere else except this one instance, and no further. How do you know it doesn't occur on normal only? How about we wait until we have the full picture before we start jumping to random conclusions, yes?


    There's an option for this new "feature" in the options I believe. I remember seeing it last night and wondering what it was.

    //edit: I'm pretty sure it's buggy though. I don't always have the arrow. It almost seems like there's a timer and if you take x amount of time on a certain lvl it might appear? This is just a guess of course.
  • #59
    Quote from KageKaze

    I'll field this question. Blizzard has already made the case that a more newbie friendly game is much better for them, and thus for business, as a whole. Blizzard put out stats that said many new players in World of Warcraft did not make it to level 10 because the gaming interface did nothing to help them figure out how to play and where to go. Now, WoW is hugely advanced compared to Diablo in terms of gameplay mechanics, so that's understandable. That's also not to say that you can't go TOO far with hand holding. A middle ground is really needed.

    As far as players paying $60 and not wanting to spend time to learn it.. well that can happen, after all, some newbies might play on a friend's system. This happens all the time. As far as Blizzard's business model is concerned, this is definitely the best choice.

    Now, we should never assume that resources are being taken away from polishing the game to make the UI more user friendly. Usually the team working on the UI and the tooltips is very different from the team working on gameplay mechanics. We don't have to sacrifice one for the other.


    Definitely a middle ground is something Blizzard should focus on. From a business point of view WoW's business model is very different than Diablo's. WoW's goal is to keep players whichever way they can, so that they can earn subscriptions. Their WoW's business model dictates over other priorities, and they put extra effort into developing newbie friendly, game guiding features. But would those same actions work in Diablo's case, i'm really not sure, it really depends on how excessive they go.

    As for the resources, I'm not sure about you, but it feels like the "Easy to Play" philosophy started dictating their development process recently. They designed their skill UI the same style for their website as for their game, which tells you that they were pretty confident of that style. But now have to change it. It seems like these decisions are made pretty late in the development cycle, and as we all know, drastic changes so late in the development cycle is never a good thing to do? But of course, I shouldn't have purveyed the message of "1 or the other" Because it's all a part of development. (Whisper Voice: "I just feel they are overemphasising the handholding, pushing it further and further, and losing focus on that middleground")
  • #60
    Quote from hoboman27

    Definitely a middle ground is something Blizzard should focus on. From a business point of view WoW's business model is very different than Diablo's. WoW's goal is to keep players whichever way they can, so that they can earn subscriptions. Their WoW's business model dictates over other priorities, and they put extra effort into developing newbie friendly, game guiding features. But would those same actions work in Diablo's case, i'm really not sure, it really depends on how excessive they go.

    As for the resources, I'm not sure about you, but it feels like the "Easy to Play" philosophy started dictating their development process recently. They designed their skill UI the same style for their website as for their game, which tells you that they were pretty confident of that style. But now have to change it. It seems like these decisions are made pretty late in the development cycle, and as we all know, drastic changes so late in the development cycle is never a good thing to do? But of course, I shouldn't have purveyed the message of "1 or the other" Because it's all a part of development. (Whisper Voice: "I just feel they are overemphasising the handholding, pushing it further and further, and losing focus on that middleground")


    The beautiful thing about blizzard is they think long term. They aren't short sighted like EA or even Bobby "Take the fun out of making games" Kotick... and trust me I'm super glad Blizz is still autonomous from Activision. The goal here is player retention. yes, Diablo is much easier to understand comparatively, but they want to make the game accessible so that people keep playing. This way they can release expansions and continue to make money on a game rather than make a whole new one next year.

    Having played the system, I can tell you I don't see any real problems here other than needing more advanced skill editing when going into Elective mode. I'm sure it will come as this is only the first public implementation of the system. The runes unlock at a descent pace that let you learn how they operate and the skill categorization is cleaner and makes more sense (assuming they fix some of the glaring category choices - see Demon Hunter video 6 to see what I mean).

    Now, a lot of people say this is a very drastic thing to do 'late in development' but what we don't know is how old this build is. Beta has always been behind the internal Blizz build. They may have already squashed many of these issues. The reason we can't see it is because the beta client is built just slightly differently and can't just pull the latest build Blizzard has. They have probably already been working on this system for months, the polish that's already there tells me that. You can't whip something up this complex in a matter of days/weeks when you're dealing with coding and art.

    I'm not saying there shouldn't be any debate or discussion, of course. But I think there's going to be this fear of the system not being ready until the full game is released and we see how it will really look. I have faith they'll figure it out, but I do admit this system is far from perfect.
    Diablo 3 playthroughs and guides via Kagekaze's Domain or Twitch TV
    Come on by and comment on YouTube or chat on Twitch, twitch chat is often watched
  • To post a comment, please or register a new account.
Posts Quoted:
Reply
Clear All Quotes