Catering to the "new" player? Someone had to of understood old games from the start

  • #21
    And you missed my point entirely, they've made the game so retards can play it, that by definition is catering to casuals.


    Yeah all games do it, some do it well others don't. I just think they took it a little far with Diablo 3.


    If you think all new players are retards then that's your prerogative. I try to hold a higher opinion of people.

    This ties in to the point that they just made a few weeks back saying most casuals won't make it to Hell or Inferno...


    Sucks for those "casuals" because now they have to play to at least Hell to see all the skill runes!
  • #22
    Quote from Entity

    And you missed my point entirely, they've made the game so retards can play it, that by definition is catering to casuals. Unless i didn't learn English correctly i'm pretty sure when you cater to someone it's when you specifically do things to help them out. Yeah all games do it, some do it well others don't. I just think they took it a little far with Diablo 3. This ties in to the point that they just made a few weeks back saying most casuals won't make it to Hell or Inferno... Then why make it so that those casuals can't use all the runes. They're just blindly making decisions that severely affect the game. If they wanted everyone to try all the runes and play the way they wanted them to play, but are making the game hard enough that most casuals won't reach that point then they're contradicting themselves and those systems are counter-productive.


    Again, we need to get off this casuals = stupid or casuals = bad kick. It's newbies that tooltips and the like cater to and that is, again, a good thing. As far as runes no longer being a drop, I'm not sure why this is considered more "elite" or why them not dropping is "casual". Is it because they don't have to put in long hours to get something that you somehow feel cheated? You can still get your hardcore fix from the rest of the gear that drops in inferno.

    And since everyone says that runestones dropped like candy, then I don't see why it matters anyway, that means the "thrill of the hunt" would be over very quickly as you'd find that rank 6 or 7 rune in a short time frame. This would be easy enough for a casual to do as well. This new system actually slows down the introduction of runes, where you could get them all fairly quickly (based on the aforementioned logic). This means newer players can test the skill modification system without being overwhelmed by too many options simultaneously. It also means that if you're "hardcore", you'll have to work to get all the options you want by leveling. Then you work on your gear in inferno.
    Diablo 3 playthroughs and guides via Kagekaze's Domain or Twitch TV
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  • #23
    Quote from Entity

    Quote from Inf

    Modern gamers are concidered idiots by the game designers. Back in the day you sat down and learned by playing and it was good! You didn't need a tutorial because it was all kind of self-explanatory (atleast the good ones were). Take a look at Egoraptor's sequelitis where he talks about Mega Man X, he really hits his head on the nail when it comes to modern game design (it's very funny too if you havn't seen it). :D

    Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FpigqfcvlM


    This is the msot true video ever, all of his sequilitis videos are good, and prove the dumbification of games point.


    I found his style more irritating than amusing, but I'm a grumpy ol'd git :) He does have some very good points too and explaiend them with some good (if somewhat drawn out) examples.

    Old school games usually threw you in at the deep end without tutorials, pages of texts, flashy cursors etc. While some of the old games I remember did cause a hefty amount of "wtf?!" I think they were better and less annoying. Slightly OT but I recently tried out Rosetta Stone for learning a language and the teaching through immersion design is how games used to work. Has this changed to increase sales and hook the players with little attention span for learning? Or is it because games are more complicated with their control system and what you need to learn? I don't know.

    One point briefly covered in the video that I've wondered for ages is why games developers make such childish and basic tutorial systems for games with an 18 certificate and a blatantly adult theme. I understand that you can teach something easily, but mastering it can take immense time and skill, but while that's fine, there are few examples where I feel that is a good thing. It reminds me of the silly moments in Japanese video games where the skill you need to do something is practically superhuman, and one split second of concentration lapse results in failure.

    Back to D3's tuition system though, and I have to say that the quest objectives irritate the hell out of me. It holds your hand far too much and I hope it doesn't stay that simplistic for long. It could do with less steps to complete along the quest and less flashy "progress" or X marks while you do it.

    I'm very glad of the ability to turn off most of the tutorial baby mode stuff, but it does make me despair that an 18 certificate game has to resort to such hand holding.

    More rant, slightly OT:
    Furthermore, almost to contradict myself, WoW could do with a little more constraint on it's freedom and better tutorial. The number of times you see players queuing as a tank with no clue what to do or how to gear when they're at the level cap is astonishing. To learn to play WoW, the game relies on you being helped and taught by other players or involves the player having the initiative to head onto the internet and research it themselves. Far too many players seem to be too shy to ask for help (no surprise given the number of players that are mocking/abusive/rude) or too lazy to look for help themselves. Then we end up with the problem games are in now - spoonfed information in laymen's terms that tend to drive gamers with an IQ higher than their shoe size up the wall.
    "It takes a man with real heart...to make beauty out of the stuff that makes us weep." - Clive Barker
  • #24
    Quote from Entity

    Quote from IgnatiusReilly

    This is the most False statement ever.


    Tool-tips are in many games. Final Fantasy Tactics has hundreds of tool-tips, and that game's pretty complex. No, not the system or UI, but the actual game play, you had to work to win a lot of those fights. Every move counted, yet there was always a tool-tip at your finger tips. "Cater to casuals" is such a blanket statement for everything people don't agree with and when people use it I just can't take them seriously, because what they are usually so upset about is helping new players familiarize themselves with the experience. They seem to think throwing them into the deep end is such a great idea. As though leaving the player in the dark is just the pinnacle of great game design.

    You don't know how easy/casual it will be (my guess, not very) becuase you've only played a 1/100th of it. So the game has some helpful tool-tips or a UI that gives suggestions for placing your skils, these two things have no bearing on the overal challenge that will be presented to the player in the later difficulties.

    Second, they've thrown out runestones because it was an inventory problem. D1 and D2 had inventorty management too, It was part of the game, so for them to change this I feel is just laziness.


    Inventory management isn't exactly a challenge nor is it a fun one at that. It's simlpy busy work. Playing the game and hoping runes drop isn't any more difficult than having acccess to them at certain levels. It just means you have to wait a little longer to use the build you want. You're going to play the game anyway, and they're going to drop sooner or later. I mean, no one would claim that someone who found a Zod on their first Baal run was somehow better at the game than everyone else. With either system the hard decision still has to be made: which rune is the best for my build?


    Did you even read up on runestones? Back at Blizzcon Jay said they dropped like candy, there was no oh I couldn't find an obsidian rune, They all had equal drop rates and they dropped fairly casually at rank 1. So everyones argument oh I had to wait to find a crimson rune is complete bullshit. They said they made them drop a ton of them. Specifically so that everyone could try out all rune types then decide which was best, then use that and gather more to combine to make higher ranks. There was literally nothing wrong with the original system besides the fact they made the inventory a mess. All they had to do was make rune types stackable and provide a nice sink, which isn't hard considering the sink should've been an easy salvaging for a part to make items with. or at least make them sellable for Gold.

    And you missed my point entirely, they've made the game so retards can play it, that by definition is catering to casuals. Unless i didn't learn English correctly i'm pretty sure when you cater to someone it's when you specifically do things to help them out. Yeah all games do it, some do it well others don't. I just think they took it a little far with Diablo 3. This ties in to the point that they just made a few weeks back saying most casuals won't make it to Hell or Inferno... Then why make it so that those casuals can't use all the runes. They're just blindly making decisions that severely affect the game. If they wanted everyone to try all the runes and play the way they wanted them to play, but are making the game hard enough that most casuals won't reach that point then they're contradicting themselves and those systems are counter-productive.


    Ok beyond the fact that yes the game is easier for new players to understand I'm so sorry that the rune system isn't in the game anymore. Listen when I say this though, they changed the rune system so that there could be more progression in the game and to help bring more experimentation into how you use runes. Sure you can say it was to make it "easier" fine I get that, but I don't think that makes it less complex. You get more options and your character develops, and for me that was a big issue I had with the game. Playing past lvl 30 with no real advances other than gear just felt lame.

    Now they've kept the customization in the game while lengthening character progression. Now I know what you're going to say, the first abilities dropped like candy, well dammit I want to upgrade to one of the higher runes in the game but it never drops! See how that works. It isn't about the first runes, it is about the later runes. If I really want to upgrade my spells to be what I want then I have to grind for more than just gear.

    Fact is that grinding gear is fun, and it is what we do. I had no problem with grinding for runes personally, but I always thought that it felt slightly boring. I just go and pick my rune when I see it drop, and get pissed off later when the upgrades don't.

    Not getting the sword you want sucks, admitted, having to switch your spell from a scatter shot to a beam because nothing else seems to drop near end game, well that just blows. Some things in a game shouldn't be related to chance, and I think this is an example of such a thing.
  • #25
    Quote from Laevus

    Has this changed to increase sales and hook the players with little attention span for learning? Or is it because games are more complicated with their control system and what you need to learn? I don't know.


    I think it has more to do the with the teaching method change we were just talking about. Games used to come with manuals, sometimes big ones. You were expected to know how to play the game before you got into it. Some people didn't need the manuals, but sometimes there were moves or options you wouldn't know about UNLESS you read the manual.

    I don't think manuals back then had any more or less information than tooltips we get now. I think we just notice it more because now we're inundated by tooltips and tutorials where as before we could skip those by just not reading the manual if we chose. Companies do not want to make manuals anymore, they cost money in materials. So I don't see this tutorial phase going away.

    Guess us old gamers just get a bit grumpy to be told something we already know ;)
    Diablo 3 playthroughs and guides via Kagekaze's Domain or Twitch TV
    Come on by and comment on YouTube or chat on Twitch, twitch chat is often watched
  • #26
    Quote from hoboman27

    Quote from IgnatiusReilly

    They aren't actually catering to anyone. The entire "catering to casuals" concept is a shallow, yet effective narrative built on simple rhetoric. Every time you read "catering to casuals", in your head just replace it with "made it different than Diablo 2". Game is fine. I promise.



    I wouldn't particularly say "catering to casuals" but one of their goal is to make the game accessible to new players, and from Bashiok's grandma story, simplified tool tips, now the new skill UI with guided categories. It is pretty clear of their intentions.

    Another thing I noticed was the Quest Objectives,

    New Objective: Find Adria's Hunt
    Objective Complete!
    New Objective: Search Adria's Hunt
    Objective Complete!
    New Objective: Enter the hidden cellar
    Objective Complete!
    New Objective: Explore the hidden cellar

    I mean is that all necessary? These little guidance features really feel quite a bit redundant

    Many of us just feel that Blizzard is making too much of a deal out of this "accessibility" direction, spending manpower and time on it. For any one that spends 60 dollars on a game, he/she should be at least somewhat interested in the features that he/she would be willing to learn about it. And to be honest, D3 is not a complex game at all compared to other rpgs out there.
    For a newbie, some of the features may help, but those features would quickly turn into annoyance as soon as they have learned the basics of the game, and would serve no purpose.


    i dont think the complexity of the quest have anything to do with appealing to casual players, ill use the quest as an example.. its not what is written in the quest that appeals casuals, but if a big fuckin arrow guided you, not on the map but on the actual screen that would be a better example, but saying ohh

    New Objective: Find Adria's Hunt
    Objective Complete!
    New Objective: Search Adria's Hunt
    Objective Complete!
    New Objective: Enter the hidden cellar
    Objective Complete!
    New Objective: Explore the hidden cellar

    is appealing to casuals that isnt necessarily true, its simple yes, but just cuz you find her hut does not mean you need to search it, you could find it and bomb it or find it and walk away, personally i dont care if it said find her hut then enter it etc.. i sure wouldnt want it to say

    New Objective: Proceed along the asymmetrical path, evidentally manufacturing your vision into discovering a dispensary.

    The kiddy tooltips such as punch someone hard, i think thats way to casual, even a casual player would want to know some sort of number that it generates.. like how hard?, 10%? 20%? 150%? i dont think you need to be a veteran to know, okay that punch does more damage than punch someone hard by 110%
    All for One, and One for None
  • #27
    The rhetoric "catering to casuals" is probably one of the most ignorant statements the "hardcore" gaming community loves to make now. It stems from people upset that their hobby is no longer niche, a special little place just for them. They don't want gaming to be inviting, to be streamlined and intuitive. The worst part is, these simpletons don't even realize that the changes blizzard makes aren't just for casual players - they're for EVERYONE. EVERYONE benefits from easily understood explanations and intelligent streamlining. The problem is these people, in their disingenuous argument, have turned these things into dirty words, idiotically. They don't realize that even if they themselves are completely ignorant of the streamlining, or the hand-holding of new players, that it has no effect on their gameplay experience whatsoever. So what it you don't like simple tooltips? Turn them off. So what if you don't like the hand-holding of the new skill system? There's elective mode.

    The problem is idiots love to pretend that every single change they don't like is directly caused by Blizzard's policy of including everyone within their development considerations. It's a completely shallow, idiotic argument that people latch onto because they either don't like a (usually VERY intelligent and warranted) design decision, or they feel like they're no longer the beautiful and unique hardcore snowflakes they thought they were, with developers' attention all to themselves.

    The most ironic thing? The people who frequently think of themselves as the ones with the most "mature" taste in gaming and experienc, are frequently the most intellectually and developmentally stunted when it comes to consideration for others in gaming.
  • #28
    Quote from EngageQuadLaser

    The rhetoric "catering to casuals" is probably one of the most ignorant statements the "hardcore" gaming community loves to make now. It stems from people upset that their hobby is no longer niche, a special little place just for them. They don't want gaming to be inviting, to be streamlined and intuitive. The worst part is, these simpletons don't even realize that the changes blizzard makes aren't just for casual players - they're for EVERYONE. EVERYONE benefits from easily understood explanations and intelligent streamlining. The problem is these people, in their disingenuous argument, have turned these things into dirty words, idiotically. They don't realize that even if they themselves are completely ignorant of the streamlining, or the hand-holding of new players, that it has no effect on their gameplay experience whatsoever. So what it you don't like simple tooltips? Turn them off. So what if you don't like the hand-holding of the new skill system? There's elective mode.

    The problem is idiots love to pretend that every single change they don't like is directly caused by Blizzard's policy of including everyone within their development considerations. It's a completely shallow, idiotic argument that people latch onto because they either don't like a (usually VERY intelligent and warranted) design decision, or they feel like they're no longer the beautiful and unique hardcore snowflakes they thought they were, with developers' attention all to themselves.

    The most ironic thing? The people who frequently think of themselves as the ones with the most "mature" taste in gaming and experienc, are frequently the most intellectually and developmentally stunted when it comes to consideration for others in gaming.


    WOAHH! easy there in regards to calling others idiots because they dont enjoy the simplifying of the game they love isnt the best way to approach something.. someone has a right to be upset that a game goes past its point to be simplistic, you dont need to be.. hmm i wont use casual since that upsets you.. a newer player to a game to think, for example a new, skill thunder punch is to simple by only saying a skill that punches hard, sure you can turn it off but seriously there is a difference between new player and ultimately incoherent and inadequate.

    i do have to agree with you that people do throw around the term "casual player" in such a way that it comes across negative and they are the bane of the hardcore gamers existence, some things dont need to be complained about but some things can also be adressed and you can still be upset about it without being flamed for bearing some emotions towards the subject
    All for One, and One for None
  • #29
    So one of the things that was brought up here was Megaman, and the concepts surrounding how the game teaches you the mechanics and well how that is a good thing. Sometimes limited choices can lead to a greater a experience. Megaman allowed you to gain your power ups in any order you wanted, with of course a setup that basically said this ability trumps that. Well that system is cool because it limits you based on you progression to learn how your super ability works.

    For me that example can relate to this game and the way it works now. Now I know that most people will get to their personal favorite ability and be the end of it. This is a great thing. The one thing they have done is make that you learn about your spells and who the other runes work along the way. That is an amazing concept to really help players learn how runes work by slowly introducing them to the players.

    This allows players to get more time with each rune, as they level up. Not just get all the choices at once and then stick to their favorite. Now they might have found they like another rune from the one they had their heart set on. The game educates you by limiting your options, you will learn what choices you have because they are fed to you slowly.

    To me that is much more like a Megaman feature which improves the way the game progress rather than getting all your options and choices by 30.
  • #30
    Quote from Bajheera

    i dont think the complexity of the quest have anything to do with appealing to casual players, ill use the quest as an example.. its not what is written in the quest that appeals casuals, but if a big fuckin arrow guided you, not on the map but on the actual screen that would be a better example, but saying ohh

    New Objective: Find Adria's Hunt
    Objective Complete!
    New Objective: Search Adria's Hunt
    Objective Complete!
    New Objective: Enter the hidden cellar
    Objective Complete!
    New Objective: Explore the hidden cellar

    is appealing to casuals that isnt necessarily true, its simple yes, but just cuz you find her hut does not mean you need to search it, you could find it and bomb it or find it and walk away, personally i dont care if it said find her hut then enter it etc.. i sure wouldnt want it to say

    New Objective: Proceed along the asymmetrical path, evidentally manufacturing your vision into discovering a dispensary.

    The kiddy tooltips such as punch someone hard, i think thats way to casual, even a casual player would want to know some sort of number that it generates.. like how hard?, 10%? 20%? 150%? i dont think you need to be a veteran to know, okay that punch does more damage than punch someone hard by 110%




    I actually said I wouldn't call their actions as "catering to casuals" in my original post. I simply pointed some of the signs showing their effort of making a guided gameplay experience, (the step by step quest objective, the simplified tool tips, and now the locked skill categories). I believe they are overly done, and they've put too much emphasis on it, and wasting their resources. Because anyone that spends 60 dollars is going to want to learn about the game, and once they learn it, those guiding features will become an annoyance to them (and you agree with me with the tool-tips).

    And to Engagequadlaser, not all of us are like that. I for one am just concerned that these many many guiding features (who knows what else they have in store) are going to get in the way of our regular gameplay. Currently the skill UI is a good example of how they have to spend time to create an Elective Mode that creates a hassle for regular players, just so that they can have a system that tells new players which skill to put on which button. In addition to that, those 'new' players will become experienced players and despise this system later down the road.
  • #31
    Quote from Inf

    Modern gamers are concidered idiots by the game designers. Back in the day you sat down and learned by playing and it was good! You didn't need a tutorial because it was all kind of self-explanatory (atleast the good ones were). Take a look at Egoraptor's sequelitis where he talks about Mega Man X, he really hits his head on the nail when it comes to modern game design (it's very funny too if you havn't seen it). :D

    Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FpigqfcvlM


    Fuck man, so glad to have watched this. Just yesterday at work I was talking to my buddy about the new rune system changes. I brought up the point of why not just have it explained in a game manual? The thing that I cannot understand is that; all new players inevitably will become an experienced player. They will play, figure things out, and become experienced. Experienced players will NEVER revert to being a new player. So by this logic ultimately the majority of players will be experienced. Why not cater to this? Blizzard emphasizes so heavily on pick up and play and simple to figure out, yet within a week at most people will have caught on to this shit and be wanting something more challenging and stimulating, not something dumbed down. And unfortunately you won't find something like that until an expansion. This is why WoW's sub's drop so dramatically and the hardcore players plow through new content in less than a month and then quit.

    /rant
  • #32
    Quote from hoboman27

    Quote from Bajheera

    i dont think the complexity of the quest have anything to do with appealing to casual players, ill use the quest as an example.. its not what is written in the quest that appeals casuals, but if a big fuckin arrow guided you, not on the map but on the actual screen that would be a better example, but saying ohh

    New Objective: Find Adria's Hunt
    Objective Complete!
    New Objective: Search Adria's Hunt
    Objective Complete!
    New Objective: Enter the hidden cellar
    Objective Complete!
    New Objective: Explore the hidden cellar

    is appealing to casuals that isnt necessarily true, its simple yes, but just cuz you find her hut does not mean you need to search it, you could find it and bomb it or find it and walk away, personally i dont care if it said find her hut then enter it etc.. i sure wouldnt want it to say

    New Objective: Proceed along the asymmetrical path, evidentally manufacturing your vision into discovering a dispensary.

    The kiddy tooltips such as punch someone hard, i think thats way to casual, even a casual player would want to know some sort of number that it generates.. like how hard?, 10%? 20%? 150%? i dont think you need to be a veteran to know, okay that punch does more damage than punch someone hard by 110%




    I actually said I wouldn't call their actions as "catering to casuals" in my original post. I simply pointed some of the signs showing their effort of making a guided gameplay experience, (the step by step quest objective, the simplified tool tips, and now the locked skill categories). I believe they are overly done, and they've put too much emphasis on it, and wasting their resources. Because anyone that spends 60 dollars is going to want to learn about the game, and once they learn it, those guiding features will become an annoyance to them (and you agree with me with the tool-tips).

    And to Engagequadlaser, not all of us are like that. I for one am just concerned that these many many guiding features (who knows what else they have in store) are going to get in the way of our regular gameplay. Currently the skill UI is a good example of how they have to spend time to create an Elective Mode that creates a hassle for regular players, just so that they can have a system that tells new players which skill to put on which button. In addition to that, those 'new' players will become experienced players and despise this system later down the road.


    i agree that in some cases it goes to far but yet once again the quest simplicity has nothing to do with it, lol i suppose we are both fighting the same cause just opposite ends of it
    All for One, and One for None
  • #33
    Quote from sionofdarkness

    Fuck man, so glad to have watched this. Just yesterday at work I was talking to my buddy about the new rune system changes. I brought up the point of why not just have it explained in a game manual? The thing that I cannot understand is that; all new players inevitably will become an experienced player. They will play, figure things out, and become experienced. Experienced players will NEVER revert to being a new player. So by this logic ultimately the majority of players will be experienced. Why not cater to this? Blizzard emphasizes so heavily on pick up and play and simple to figure out, yet within a week at most people will have caught on to this shit and be wanting something more challenging and stimulating, not something dumbed down. And unfortunately you won't find something like that until an expansion. This is why WoW's sub's drop so dramatically and the hardcore players plow through new content in less than a month and then quit.

    /rant


    Ok I just mentioned above how Diablo 3 is taking one concept of the Megaman play book, sequential development of power. In Megaman, you pick up powers and abilities that make you a better player. At first you only have one and later you get many. By the end of the game you've learned to use all of these abilities and it was because at some point you were forced to use one of them.

    Now Blizzard has made rune stones more of a choice so you don't "need" any of them. Definitely a fact, I won't even argue it. What they did have was forced use that really didn't feel like a player choice. (e.i. Oh man I still only have a Crimson rune level 1, I guess I should just use level 4 Alabaster rune since I can't seem to get this item to drop.) That is actually a very aggravating choice, the good thing is that Blizzard will then have you learn a bit about the other runes and what they do, bad part is that it feels forced.

    Now to you and me, the new system can feel forced, because we knew of a time before. For the vast majority it will feel like progression. New options, maybe new choices, and to add to it all this really pushes experimentation in the game.

    Lets not lie and say that the previous rune system basically worked seamlessly in the game. It didn't, it was something that promoted leaving the game and looking at the options. Now what has Blizzard done, they've made it so you have the info in the game and you are slowly introduced to new abilities, which means you can see how they work gradually and organically. You're not learning from a website how the spell works, you are learning because it is all you have, or the newest option you obtained.

    That is much more Megaman like and one of the reason's it is a great game, I think this game has taken a very solid concept and adapted it to a A-RPG format.
  • #34
    From both wow and things they've done in the D3 Beta it really seems that Blizzard is starting to think that new gamers are absolute retards. How do they think they got wow started? Wow was a lot more difficult on release then it is now, even just to level up. When it came out no one was a pro and even they didn't need all that they give new players now. The game became popular before all this casual stuff for reason its what people liked, new and old gamers.

    Edit: that megaman vid is so true.

    Isendims#1577
  • #35
    Quote from Bajheera

    i agree that in some cases it goes to far but yet once again the quest simplicity has nothing to do with it, lol i suppose we are both fighting the same cause just opposite ends of it


    hah probably, I just feel that those D3 quest objectives update like "do this, now do this, now do this..." handholding the player every step of the way... and I find that kind of annoying.

    I've recently been playing d2, and it was just "Search for this at there." Granted, that wasn't a good way to go either, but D3 seems to have jumped on the other extreme, and that's why I readily notice it.

    For that particular quest, all you need is probably:

    Search Adria's Hunt and Explore the hidden cellar
  • #36
    Quote from hoboman27

    And to Engagequadlaser, not all of us are like that. I for one am just concerned that these many many guiding features (who knows what else they have in store) are going to get in the way of our regular gameplay. Currently the skill UI is a good example of how they have to spend time to create an Elective Mode that creates a hassle for regular players, just so that they can have a system that tells new players which skill to put on which button. In addition to that, those 'new' players will become experienced players and despise this system later down the road.


    How exactly are they going to 'get in your way'? Are the tooltips on your screen so big that they get in the way of your mouse clicks? Why point to something such as the skill UI, which is OBVIOUSLY in its first iteration, as evidence? You know it's not final. For christ's sake, there's elements that overlap and obscure others.

    So again, how exactly are you being inconvenienced by these measures?

    Quote from sionofdarkness

    Quote from Inf

    Modern gamers are concidered idiots by the game designers. Back in the day you sat down and learned by playing and it was good! You didn't need a tutorial because it was all kind of self-explanatory (atleast the good ones were). Take a look at Egoraptor's sequelitis where he talks about Mega Man X, he really hits his head on the nail when it comes to modern game design (it's very funny too if you havn't seen it). :D

    Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FpigqfcvlM


    Fuck man, so glad to have watched this. Just yesterday at work I was talking to my buddy about the new rune system changes. I brought up the point of why not just have it explained in a game manual? The thing that I cannot understand is that; all new players inevitably will become an experienced player. They will play, figure things out, and become experienced. Experienced players will NEVER revert to being a new player. So by this logic ultimately the majority of players will be experienced. Why not cater to this? Blizzard emphasizes so heavily on pick up and play and simple to figure out, yet within a week at most people will have caught on to this shit and be wanting something more challenging and stimulating, not something dumbed down. And unfortunately you won't find something like that until an expansion. This is why WoW's sub's drop so dramatically and the hardcore players plow through new content in less than a month and then quit.

    /rant


    The video actually explains why they DON'T have it in a game manual... because it's better to teach as you play...

    Yes, eventually everyone will be experienced. By that point, there will be NO MORE TOOLTIPS, and they can go into elective mode if they want. So again, how exactly are YOU being hurt by their decisions to provide some help for newer players? Help that you're QUICKLY going to blast through and probably never have to deal with again.

    All I see is another unfounded whine post about "wahhhhhh! wahhhhh! catering to casuals! How? Umm... I don't know..."
  • #37
    Quote from arsonal3

    Ok I just mentioned above how Diablo 3 is taking one concept of the Megaman play book, sequential development of power. In Megaman, you pick up powers and abilities that make you a better player. At first you only have one and later you get many. By the end of the game you've learned to use all of these abilities and it was because at some point you were forced to use one of them.

    Now Blizzard has made rune stones more of a choice so you don't "need" any of them. Definitely a fact, I won't even argue it. What they did have was forced use that really didn't feel like a player choice. (e.i. Oh man I still only have a Crimson rune level 1, I guess I should just use level 4 Alabaster rune since I can't seem to get this item to drop.) That is actually a very aggravating choice, the good thing is that Blizzard will then have you learn a bit about the other runes and what they do, bad part is that it feels forced.

    Now to you and me, the new system can feel forced, because we knew of a time before. For the vast majority it will feel like progression. New options, maybe new choices, and to add to it all this really pushes experimentation in the game.

    Lets not lie and say that the previous rune system basically worked seamlessly in the game. It didn't, it was something that promoted leaving the game and looking at the options. Now what has Blizzard done, they've made it so you have the info in the game and you are slowly introduced to new abilities, which means you can see how they work gradually and organically. You're not learning from a website how the spell works, you are learning because it is all you have, or the newest option you obtained.

    That is much more Megaman like and one of the reason's it is a great game, I think this game has taken a very solid concept and adapted it to a A-RPG format.


    You make a few valid points. The way the runes were most recently definitely would not have worked, however the original unattenuated rune system I feel is fine. Where I disagree with you is giving a player access to something to make it easier for them, which is essentially what you are saying. Just because it may take time to get a drop you want doesn't mean that it should just be given to you by default for playing (via leveling up) Diablo 2 is about itemization, working to hunt for a new rune to make one of your abilities more powerful was another very rewarding form of progression in a game where end game can become very tedious very fast without any raids like WoW. There were many ways in which you could acquire a rune without having it drop for you; either it drops for a friend and they give it to you, you trade for it, buy it on the AH. All of these elements have essentially been removed. Runes could have held valuable in the economy and possibly made you real money via the RMAH. Yes it may be frustrating hunting endlessly for an item but thats really what Diablo is about, and it makes it FEEL that much better when you are finally rewarded with it vs just being given it by default. This comes back to my other central point which is Blizzard neglects the psyche of their player in recent designs, in my opinion. I will always get feeling of much greater accomplishment having to work for and manipulate in some way (via farming or haggling in a trade) to get my item, vs just playing the game and having it automatically given to me. Leveling in Diablo isn't hard. Hell and Inferno might be much harder respectively vs the difficulties in D2, but hitting the level cap will not be a hard feat to accomplish, and in turn unlocking anything along the way will not be that hard either. To further relate it to your point, yes they may be making it more megaman-like, but the means by which they are doing so is not ideal. But then again, I also feel like learning it from a website isn't that big of a deal, its just when you short a player some experience to make it easier or spell it all out directly by giving it to them that irritates me.
  • #38
    Quote from hoboman27

    Quote from Bajheera

    i agree that in some cases it goes to far but yet once again the quest simplicity has nothing to do with it, lol i suppose we are both fighting the same cause just opposite ends of it


    hah probably, I just feel that those D3 quest objectives update like "do this, now do this, now do this..." handholding the player every step of the way... and I find that kind of annoying.

    I've recently been playing d2, and it was just "Search for this at there." Granted, that wasn't a good way to go either, but D3 seems to have jumped on the other extreme, and that's why I readily notice it.

    For that particular quest, all you need is probably:

    Search Adria's Hunt and Explore the hidden cellar


    ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh okay well the example given makes a lot of sense why you could not enjoy the hand holding, yaa it does suck but that topic is hard to determine whether or not blizz is trying to simplify for newer gamers or just what the norm is but i get your point, i do wish things were different but i cant change them i can only enjoy the fact that D3 is slowly but surely coming along
    All for One, and One for None
  • #39
    Quote from Bajheera

    Quote from hoboman27

    Quote from Bajheera

    i agree that in some cases it goes to far but yet once again the quest simplicity has nothing to do with it, lol i suppose we are both fighting the same cause just opposite ends of it


    hah probably, I just feel that those D3 quest objectives update like "do this, now do this, now do this..." handholding the player every step of the way... and I find that kind of annoying.

    I've recently been playing d2, and it was just "Search for this at there." Granted, that wasn't a good way to go either, but D3 seems to have jumped on the other extreme, and that's why I readily notice it.

    For that particular quest, all you need is probably:

    Search Adria's Hunt and Explore the hidden cellar


    ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh okay well the example given makes a lot of sense why you could not enjoy the hand holding, yaa it does suck but that topic is hard to determine whether or not blizz is trying to simplify for newer gamers or just what the norm is but i get your point, i do wish things were different but i cant change them i can only enjoy the fact that D3 is slowly but surely coming along


    Yea, except for that new skill UI lol!

    Isendims#1577
  • #40
    Quote from isendims


    Yea, except for that new skill UI lol!


    lmao yeaa they need to fix that skill UI, the passive UI is bad, but call me weird i dont mind it lmao, i think i just like seeing the potential passives i can get just on one easy to see page.. with that said the UI still blows
    All for One, and One for None
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