They aren't actually catering to anyone. The entire "catering to casuals" concept is a shallow, yet effective narrative built on simple rhetoric. Every time you read "catering to casuals", in your head just replace it with "made it different than Diablo 2". Game is fine. I promise.
I wouldn't particularly say "catering to casuals" but one of their goal is to make the game accessible to new players, and from Bashiok's grandma story, simplified tool tips, now the new skill UI with guided categories. It is pretty clear of their intentions.
Another thing I noticed was the Quest Objectives,
New Objective: Find Adria's Hunt
Objective Complete!
New Objective: Search Adria's Hunt
Objective Complete!
New Objective: Enter the hidden cellar
Objective Complete!
New Objective: Explore the hidden cellar
I mean is that all necessary? These little guidance features really feel quite a bit redundant
Many of us just feel that Blizzard is making too much of a deal out of this "accessibility" direction, spending manpower and time on it. For any one that spends 60 dollars on a game, he/she should be at least somewhat interested in the features that he/she would be willing to learn about it. And to be honest, D3 is not a complex game at all compared to other rpgs out there.
For a newbie, some of the features may help, but those features would quickly turn into annoyance as soon as they have learned the basics of the game, and would serve no purpose.
i dont think the complexity of the quest have anything to do with appealing to casual players, ill use the quest as an example.. its not what is written in the quest that appeals casuals, but if a big fuckin arrow guided you, not on the map but on the actual screen that would be a better example, but saying ohh
New Objective: Find Adria's Hunt
Objective Complete!
New Objective: Search Adria's Hunt
Objective Complete!
New Objective: Enter the hidden cellar
Objective Complete!
New Objective: Explore the hidden cellar
is appealing to casuals that isnt necessarily true, its simple yes, but just cuz you find her hut does not mean you need to search it, you could find it and bomb it or find it and walk away, personally i dont care if it said find her hut then enter it etc.. i sure wouldnt want it to say
New Objective: Proceed along the asymmetrical path, evidentally manufacturing your vision into discovering a dispensary.
The kiddy tooltips such as punch someone hard, i think thats way to casual, even a casual player would want to know some sort of number that it generates.. like how hard?, 10%? 20%? 150%? i dont think you need to be a veteran to know, okay that punch does more damage than punch someone hard by 110%
The rhetoric "catering to casuals" is probably one of the most ignorant statements the "hardcore" gaming community loves to make now. It stems from people upset that their hobby is no longer niche, a special little place just for them. They don't want gaming to be inviting, to be streamlined and intuitive. The worst part is, these simpletons don't even realize that the changes blizzard makes aren't just for casual players - they're for EVERYONE. EVERYONE benefits from easily understood explanations and intelligent streamlining. The problem is these people, in their disingenuous argument, have turned these things into dirty words, idiotically. They don't realize that even if they themselves are completely ignorant of the streamlining, or the hand-holding of new players, that it has no effect on their gameplay experience whatsoever. So what it you don't like simple tooltips? Turn them off. So what if you don't like the hand-holding of the new skill system? There's elective mode.
The problem is idiots love to pretend that every single change they don't like is directly caused by Blizzard's policy of including everyone within their development considerations. It's a completely shallow, idiotic argument that people latch onto because they either don't like a (usually VERY intelligent and warranted) design decision, or they feel like they're no longer the beautiful and unique hardcore snowflakes they thought they were, with developers' attention all to themselves.
The most ironic thing? The people who frequently think of themselves as the ones with the most "mature" taste in gaming and experienc, are frequently the most intellectually and developmentally stunted when it comes to consideration for others in gaming.
The rhetoric "catering to casuals" is probably one of the most ignorant statements the "hardcore" gaming community loves to make now. It stems from people upset that their hobby is no longer niche, a special little place just for them. They don't want gaming to be inviting, to be streamlined and intuitive. The worst part is, these simpletons don't even realize that the changes blizzard makes aren't just for casual players - they're for EVERYONE. EVERYONE benefits from easily understood explanations and intelligent streamlining. The problem is these people, in their disingenuous argument, have turned these things into dirty words, idiotically. They don't realize that even if they themselves are completely ignorant of the streamlining, or the hand-holding of new players, that it has no effect on their gameplay experience whatsoever. So what it you don't like simple tooltips? Turn them off. So what if you don't like the hand-holding of the new skill system? There's elective mode.
The problem is idiots love to pretend that every single change they don't like is directly caused by Blizzard's policy of including everyone within their development considerations. It's a completely shallow, idiotic argument that people latch onto because they either don't like a (usually VERY intelligent and warranted) design decision, or they feel like they're no longer the beautiful and unique hardcore snowflakes they thought they were, with developers' attention all to themselves.
The most ironic thing? The people who frequently think of themselves as the ones with the most "mature" taste in gaming and experienc, are frequently the most intellectually and developmentally stunted when it comes to consideration for others in gaming.
WOAHH! easy there in regards to calling others idiots because they dont enjoy the simplifying of the game they love isnt the best way to approach something.. someone has a right to be upset that a game goes past its point to be simplistic, you dont need to be.. hmm i wont use casual since that upsets you.. a newer player to a game to think, for example a new, skill thunder punch is to simple by only saying a skill that punches hard, sure you can turn it off but seriously there is a difference between new player and ultimately incoherent and inadequate.
i do have to agree with you that people do throw around the term "casual player" in such a way that it comes across negative and they are the bane of the hardcore gamers existence, some things dont need to be complained about but some things can also be adressed and you can still be upset about it without being flamed for bearing some emotions towards the subject
So one of the things that was brought up here was Megaman, and the concepts surrounding how the game teaches you the mechanics and well how that is a good thing. Sometimes limited choices can lead to a greater a experience. Megaman allowed you to gain your power ups in any order you wanted, with of course a setup that basically said this ability trumps that. Well that system is cool because it limits you based on you progression to learn how your super ability works.
For me that example can relate to this game and the way it works now. Now I know that most people will get to their personal favorite ability and be the end of it. This is a great thing. The one thing they have done is make that you learn about your spells and who the other runes work along the way. That is an amazing concept to really help players learn how runes work by slowly introducing them to the players.
This allows players to get more time with each rune, as they level up. Not just get all the choices at once and then stick to their favorite. Now they might have found they like another rune from the one they had their heart set on. The game educates you by limiting your options, you will learn what choices you have because they are fed to you slowly.
To me that is much more like a Megaman feature which improves the way the game progress rather than getting all your options and choices by 30.
i dont think the complexity of the quest have anything to do with appealing to casual players, ill use the quest as an example.. its not what is written in the quest that appeals casuals, but if a big fuckin arrow guided you, not on the map but on the actual screen that would be a better example, but saying ohh
New Objective: Find Adria's Hunt
Objective Complete!
New Objective: Search Adria's Hunt
Objective Complete!
New Objective: Enter the hidden cellar
Objective Complete!
New Objective: Explore the hidden cellar
is appealing to casuals that isnt necessarily true, its simple yes, but just cuz you find her hut does not mean you need to search it, you could find it and bomb it or find it and walk away, personally i dont care if it said find her hut then enter it etc.. i sure wouldnt want it to say
New Objective: Proceed along the asymmetrical path, evidentally manufacturing your vision into discovering a dispensary.
The kiddy tooltips such as punch someone hard, i think thats way to casual, even a casual player would want to know some sort of number that it generates.. like how hard?, 10%? 20%? 150%? i dont think you need to be a veteran to know, okay that punch does more damage than punch someone hard by 110%
I actually said I wouldn't call their actions as "catering to casuals" in my original post. I simply pointed some of the signs showing their effort of making a guided gameplay experience, (the step by step quest objective, the simplified tool tips, and now the locked skill categories). I believe they are overly done, and they've put too much emphasis on it, and wasting their resources. Because anyone that spends 60 dollars is going to want to learn about the game, and once they learn it, those guiding features will become an annoyance to them (and you agree with me with the tool-tips).
And to Engagequadlaser, not all of us are like that. I for one am just concerned that these many many guiding features (who knows what else they have in store) are going to get in the way of our regular gameplay. Currently the skill UI is a good example of how they have to spend time to create an Elective Mode that creates a hassle for regular players, just so that they can have a system that tells new players which skill to put on which button. In addition to that, those 'new' players will become experienced players and despise this system later down the road.
Modern gamers are concidered idiots by the game designers. Back in the day you sat down and learned by playing and it was good! You didn't need a tutorial because it was all kind of self-explanatory (atleast the good ones were). Take a look at Egoraptor's sequelitis where he talks about Mega Man X, he really hits his head on the nail when it comes to modern game design (it's very funny too if you havn't seen it).
Fuck man, so glad to have watched this. Just yesterday at work I was talking to my buddy about the new rune system changes. I brought up the point of why not just have it explained in a game manual? The thing that I cannot understand is that; all new players inevitably will become an experienced player. They will play, figure things out, and become experienced. Experienced players will NEVER revert to being a new player. So by this logic ultimately the majority of players will be experienced. Why not cater to this? Blizzard emphasizes so heavily on pick up and play and simple to figure out, yet within a week at most people will have caught on to this shit and be wanting something more challenging and stimulating, not something dumbed down. And unfortunately you won't find something like that until an expansion. This is why WoW's sub's drop so dramatically and the hardcore players plow through new content in less than a month and then quit.
i dont think the complexity of the quest have anything to do with appealing to casual players, ill use the quest as an example.. its not what is written in the quest that appeals casuals, but if a big fuckin arrow guided you, not on the map but on the actual screen that would be a better example, but saying ohh
New Objective: Find Adria's Hunt
Objective Complete!
New Objective: Search Adria's Hunt
Objective Complete!
New Objective: Enter the hidden cellar
Objective Complete!
New Objective: Explore the hidden cellar
is appealing to casuals that isnt necessarily true, its simple yes, but just cuz you find her hut does not mean you need to search it, you could find it and bomb it or find it and walk away, personally i dont care if it said find her hut then enter it etc.. i sure wouldnt want it to say
New Objective: Proceed along the asymmetrical path, evidentally manufacturing your vision into discovering a dispensary.
The kiddy tooltips such as punch someone hard, i think thats way to casual, even a casual player would want to know some sort of number that it generates.. like how hard?, 10%? 20%? 150%? i dont think you need to be a veteran to know, okay that punch does more damage than punch someone hard by 110%
I actually said I wouldn't call their actions as "catering to casuals" in my original post. I simply pointed some of the signs showing their effort of making a guided gameplay experience, (the step by step quest objective, the simplified tool tips, and now the locked skill categories). I believe they are overly done, and they've put too much emphasis on it, and wasting their resources. Because anyone that spends 60 dollars is going to want to learn about the game, and once they learn it, those guiding features will become an annoyance to them (and you agree with me with the tool-tips).
And to Engagequadlaser, not all of us are like that. I for one am just concerned that these many many guiding features (who knows what else they have in store) are going to get in the way of our regular gameplay. Currently the skill UI is a good example of how they have to spend time to create an Elective Mode that creates a hassle for regular players, just so that they can have a system that tells new players which skill to put on which button. In addition to that, those 'new' players will become experienced players and despise this system later down the road.
i agree that in some cases it goes to far but yet once again the quest simplicity has nothing to do with it, lol i suppose we are both fighting the same cause just opposite ends of it
Fuck man, so glad to have watched this. Just yesterday at work I was talking to my buddy about the new rune system changes. I brought up the point of why not just have it explained in a game manual? The thing that I cannot understand is that; all new players inevitably will become an experienced player. They will play, figure things out, and become experienced. Experienced players will NEVER revert to being a new player. So by this logic ultimately the majority of players will be experienced. Why not cater to this? Blizzard emphasizes so heavily on pick up and play and simple to figure out, yet within a week at most people will have caught on to this shit and be wanting something more challenging and stimulating, not something dumbed down. And unfortunately you won't find something like that until an expansion. This is why WoW's sub's drop so dramatically and the hardcore players plow through new content in less than a month and then quit.
/rant
Ok I just mentioned above how Diablo 3 is taking one concept of the Megaman play book, sequential development of power. In Megaman, you pick up powers and abilities that make you a better player. At first you only have one and later you get many. By the end of the game you've learned to use all of these abilities and it was because at some point you were forced to use one of them.
Now Blizzard has made rune stones more of a choice so you don't "need" any of them. Definitely a fact, I won't even argue it. What they did have was forced use that really didn't feel like a player choice. (e.i. Oh man I still only have a Crimson rune level 1, I guess I should just use level 4 Alabaster rune since I can't seem to get this item to drop.) That is actually a very aggravating choice, the good thing is that Blizzard will then have you learn a bit about the other runes and what they do, bad part is that it feels forced.
Now to you and me, the new system can feel forced, because we knew of a time before. For the vast majority it will feel like progression. New options, maybe new choices, and to add to it all this really pushes experimentation in the game.
Lets not lie and say that the previous rune system basically worked seamlessly in the game. It didn't, it was something that promoted leaving the game and looking at the options. Now what has Blizzard done, they've made it so you have the info in the game and you are slowly introduced to new abilities, which means you can see how they work gradually and organically. You're not learning from a website how the spell works, you are learning because it is all you have, or the newest option you obtained.
That is much more Megaman like and one of the reason's it is a great game, I think this game has taken a very solid concept and adapted it to a A-RPG format.
From both wow and things they've done in the D3 Beta it really seems that Blizzard is starting to think that new gamers are absolute retards. How do they think they got wow started? Wow was a lot more difficult on release then it is now, even just to level up. When it came out no one was a pro and even they didn't need all that they give new players now. The game became popular before all this casual stuff for reason its what people liked, new and old gamers.
i agree that in some cases it goes to far but yet once again the quest simplicity has nothing to do with it, lol i suppose we are both fighting the same cause just opposite ends of it
hah probably, I just feel that those D3 quest objectives update like "do this, now do this, now do this..." handholding the player every step of the way... and I find that kind of annoying.
I've recently been playing d2, and it was just "Search for this at there." Granted, that wasn't a good way to go either, but D3 seems to have jumped on the other extreme, and that's why I readily notice it.
For that particular quest, all you need is probably:
And to Engagequadlaser, not all of us are like that. I for one am just concerned that these many many guiding features (who knows what else they have in store) are going to get in the way of our regular gameplay. Currently the skill UI is a good example of how they have to spend time to create an Elective Mode that creates a hassle for regular players, just so that they can have a system that tells new players which skill to put on which button. In addition to that, those 'new' players will become experienced players and despise this system later down the road.
How exactly are they going to 'get in your way'? Are the tooltips on your screen so big that they get in the way of your mouse clicks? Why point to something such as the skill UI, which is OBVIOUSLY in its first iteration, as evidence? You know it's not final. For christ's sake, there's elements that overlap and obscure others.
So again, how exactly are you being inconvenienced by these measures?
Modern gamers are concidered idiots by the game designers. Back in the day you sat down and learned by playing and it was good! You didn't need a tutorial because it was all kind of self-explanatory (atleast the good ones were). Take a look at Egoraptor's sequelitis where he talks about Mega Man X, he really hits his head on the nail when it comes to modern game design (it's very funny too if you havn't seen it).
Fuck man, so glad to have watched this. Just yesterday at work I was talking to my buddy about the new rune system changes. I brought up the point of why not just have it explained in a game manual? The thing that I cannot understand is that; all new players inevitably will become an experienced player. They will play, figure things out, and become experienced. Experienced players will NEVER revert to being a new player. So by this logic ultimately the majority of players will be experienced. Why not cater to this? Blizzard emphasizes so heavily on pick up and play and simple to figure out, yet within a week at most people will have caught on to this shit and be wanting something more challenging and stimulating, not something dumbed down. And unfortunately you won't find something like that until an expansion. This is why WoW's sub's drop so dramatically and the hardcore players plow through new content in less than a month and then quit.
/rant
The video actually explains why they DON'T have it in a game manual... because it's better to teach as you play...
Yes, eventually everyone will be experienced. By that point, there will be NO MORE TOOLTIPS, and they can go into elective mode if they want. So again, how exactly are YOU being hurt by their decisions to provide some help for newer players? Help that you're QUICKLY going to blast through and probably never have to deal with again.
All I see is another unfounded whine post about "wahhhhhh! wahhhhh! catering to casuals! How? Umm... I don't know..."
Ok I just mentioned above how Diablo 3 is taking one concept of the Megaman play book, sequential development of power. In Megaman, you pick up powers and abilities that make you a better player. At first you only have one and later you get many. By the end of the game you've learned to use all of these abilities and it was because at some point you were forced to use one of them.
Now Blizzard has made rune stones more of a choice so you don't "need" any of them. Definitely a fact, I won't even argue it. What they did have was forced use that really didn't feel like a player choice. (e.i. Oh man I still only have a Crimson rune level 1, I guess I should just use level 4 Alabaster rune since I can't seem to get this item to drop.) That is actually a very aggravating choice, the good thing is that Blizzard will then have you learn a bit about the other runes and what they do, bad part is that it feels forced.
Now to you and me, the new system can feel forced, because we knew of a time before. For the vast majority it will feel like progression. New options, maybe new choices, and to add to it all this really pushes experimentation in the game.
Lets not lie and say that the previous rune system basically worked seamlessly in the game. It didn't, it was something that promoted leaving the game and looking at the options. Now what has Blizzard done, they've made it so you have the info in the game and you are slowly introduced to new abilities, which means you can see how they work gradually and organically. You're not learning from a website how the spell works, you are learning because it is all you have, or the newest option you obtained.
That is much more Megaman like and one of the reason's it is a great game, I think this game has taken a very solid concept and adapted it to a A-RPG format.
You make a few valid points. The way the runes were most recently definitely would not have worked, however the original unattenuated rune system I feel is fine. Where I disagree with you is giving a player access to something to make it easier for them, which is essentially what you are saying. Just because it may take time to get a drop you want doesn't mean that it should just be given to you by default for playing (via leveling up) Diablo 2 is about itemization, working to hunt for a new rune to make one of your abilities more powerful was another very rewarding form of progression in a game where end game can become very tedious very fast without any raids like WoW. There were many ways in which you could acquire a rune without having it drop for you; either it drops for a friend and they give it to you, you trade for it, buy it on the AH. All of these elements have essentially been removed. Runes could have held valuable in the economy and possibly made you real money via the RMAH. Yes it may be frustrating hunting endlessly for an item but thats really what Diablo is about, and it makes it FEEL that much better when you are finally rewarded with it vs just being given it by default. This comes back to my other central point which is Blizzard neglects the psyche of their player in recent designs, in my opinion. I will always get feeling of much greater accomplishment having to work for and manipulate in some way (via farming or haggling in a trade) to get my item, vs just playing the game and having it automatically given to me. Leveling in Diablo isn't hard. Hell and Inferno might be much harder respectively vs the difficulties in D2, but hitting the level cap will not be a hard feat to accomplish, and in turn unlocking anything along the way will not be that hard either. To further relate it to your point, yes they may be making it more megaman-like, but the means by which they are doing so is not ideal. But then again, I also feel like learning it from a website isn't that big of a deal, its just when you short a player some experience to make it easier or spell it all out directly by giving it to them that irritates me.
i agree that in some cases it goes to far but yet once again the quest simplicity has nothing to do with it, lol i suppose we are both fighting the same cause just opposite ends of it
hah probably, I just feel that those D3 quest objectives update like "do this, now do this, now do this..." handholding the player every step of the way... and I find that kind of annoying.
I've recently been playing d2, and it was just "Search for this at there." Granted, that wasn't a good way to go either, but D3 seems to have jumped on the other extreme, and that's why I readily notice it.
For that particular quest, all you need is probably:
Search Adria's Hunt and Explore the hidden cellar
ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh okay well the example given makes a lot of sense why you could not enjoy the hand holding, yaa it does suck but that topic is hard to determine whether or not blizz is trying to simplify for newer gamers or just what the norm is but i get your point, i do wish things were different but i cant change them i can only enjoy the fact that D3 is slowly but surely coming along
i agree that in some cases it goes to far but yet once again the quest simplicity has nothing to do with it, lol i suppose we are both fighting the same cause just opposite ends of it
hah probably, I just feel that those D3 quest objectives update like "do this, now do this, now do this..." handholding the player every step of the way... and I find that kind of annoying.
I've recently been playing d2, and it was just "Search for this at there." Granted, that wasn't a good way to go either, but D3 seems to have jumped on the other extreme, and that's why I readily notice it.
For that particular quest, all you need is probably:
Search Adria's Hunt and Explore the hidden cellar
ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh okay well the example given makes a lot of sense why you could not enjoy the hand holding, yaa it does suck but that topic is hard to determine whether or not blizz is trying to simplify for newer gamers or just what the norm is but i get your point, i do wish things were different but i cant change them i can only enjoy the fact that D3 is slowly but surely coming along
lmao yeaa they need to fix that skill UI, the passive UI is bad, but call me weird i dont mind it lmao, i think i just like seeing the potential passives i can get just on one easy to see page.. with that said the UI still blows
Modern gamers are concidered idiots by the game designers. Back in the day you sat down and learned by playing and it was good! You didn't need a tutorial because it was all kind of self-explanatory (atleast the good ones were). Take a look at Egoraptor's sequelitis where he talks about Mega Man X, he really hits his head on the nail when it comes to modern game design (it's very funny too if you havn't seen it).
Thank you for sharing this video. So many good points there. It actually made me realize a lot of what I have been missing in games lately, and pointed out how annoying all those tips are during gameplay. Such a good video.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing a Wizard. Looking for Demon Hunters to play with.
And to Engagequadlaser, not all of us are like that. I for one am just concerned that these many many guiding features (who knows what else they have in store) are going to get in the way of our regular gameplay. Currently the skill UI is a good example of how they have to spend time to create an Elective Mode that creates a hassle for regular players, just so that they can have a system that tells new players which skill to put on which button. In addition to that, those 'new' players will become experienced players and despise this system later down the road.
How exactly are they going to 'get in your way'? Are the tooltips on your screen so big that they get in the way of your mouse clicks? Why point to something such as the skill UI, which is OBVIOUSLY in its first iteration, as evidence? You know it's not final. For christ's sake, there's elements that overlap and obscure others.
So again, how exactly are you being inconvenienced by these measures?
Modern gamers are concidered idiots by the game designers. Back in the day you sat down and learned by playing and it was good! You didn't need a tutorial because it was all kind of self-explanatory (atleast the good ones were). Take a look at Egoraptor's sequelitis where he talks about Mega Man X, he really hits his head on the nail when it comes to modern game design (it's very funny too if you havn't seen it).
Fuck man, so glad to have watched this. Just yesterday at work I was talking to my buddy about the new rune system changes. I brought up the point of why not just have it explained in a game manual? The thing that I cannot understand is that; all new players inevitably will become an experienced player. They will play, figure things out, and become experienced. Experienced players will NEVER revert to being a new player. So by this logic ultimately the majority of players will be experienced. Why not cater to this? Blizzard emphasizes so heavily on pick up and play and simple to figure out, yet within a week at most people will have caught on to this shit and be wanting something more challenging and stimulating, not something dumbed down. And unfortunately you won't find something like that until an expansion. This is why WoW's sub's drop so dramatically and the hardcore players plow through new content in less than a month and then quit.
/rant
The video actually explains why they DON'T have it in a game manual... because it's better to teach as you play...
Yes, eventually everyone will be experienced. By that point, there will be NO MORE TOOLTIPS, and they can go into elective mode if they want. So again, how exactly are YOU being hurt by their decisions to provide some help for newer players? Help that you're QUICKLY going to blast through and probably never have to deal with again.
All I see is another unfounded whine post about "wahhhhhh! wahhhhh! catering to casuals! How? Umm... I don't know..."
Uhm Well the UI BLOWS CHUNKS, The way they sorted the skills and everything is just terrible. without "whine" threads they'd say oh look no ones complained and it's awesome lets leave it. Then we all get fucked. so thank these "whine" Threads for getting things changed.
Second To an earlier post you made, I have no idea why everyone who says Casuals has to be a "hardcore", and masochistic asshole, I say casuals as someone who's going to pick up their first arpg and play it for a few months. They are casual, i.e they play it casually and at leisure not like most of us here on this forum will do. To say we're all stupid for saying a game is making things for casual players is idiotic in itself. You can't deny the fact that they've made certain aspects of the game easier for the masses. Just look at Normal, Nightmare, Hell, and Inferno. They made normal so easy a baby could play it. So they then added Inferno to balance out with something only hardcore players will do. So clearly they are catering to casuals here. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, I'm just pointing out that it is a true statement. They've purposely made the game easier. Simple as that.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Not even Death will save you from Diablo Bunny's Cuteness!
And to Engagequadlaser, not all of us are like that. I for one am just concerned that these many many guiding features (who knows what else they have in store) are going to get in the way of our regular gameplay. Currently the skill UI is a good example of how they have to spend time to create an Elective Mode that creates a hassle for regular players, just so that they can have a system that tells new players which skill to put on which button. In addition to that, those 'new' players will become experienced players and despise this system later down the road.
How exactly are they going to 'get in your way'? Are the tooltips on your screen so big that they get in the way of your mouse clicks? Why point to something such as the skill UI, which is OBVIOUSLY in its first iteration, as evidence? You know it's not final. For christ's sake, there's elements that overlap and obscure others.
So again, how exactly are you being inconvenienced by these measures?
First, you cannot deny that they are putting effort and time towards this goal of having a guided experience. I'm not saying it's bad, but it's overly done, and a lot of this effort i feel is going to be a little wasted.
The simplified tool tips for example, if you are an experienced rpg player, but never touched diablo, never followed the beta like we are doing right now, what would your first thought be when you see those tool-tips (punch the enemy hard)? would you know if there's actually an option to toggle that off? or press ctrl?
Currently there's people reporting of map markers showing on map telling you exactly where to go in a dungeon... do you really want that?
What's the fun in exploring if you are guided to the goal?
As for the UI, if they publish it through the beta patch, they are at least some what confident that this is the correct direction, which is to sacrifice usability for guided experience. And this should be where we need to get concerned. If this is the direction that they are going with, what other mechanism might they sacrifice in the future for the sake of making the game more guided/accessible for new players? Would it be worth it to make that sacrifice? In the long term?
To me, I would never agree to exchange gameplay/usability, for a more scripted guidance for new players. Because strong game features is key for a great game, and it is long term, but new players are not. New players will get experienced, and those features will serve little purpose to them.
And last but not least, we are all reasonable people having a reasonable discussion, please don't call people idiots.
And to Engagequadlaser, not all of us are like that. I for one am just concerned that these many many guiding features (who knows what else they have in store) are going to get in the way of our regular gameplay. Currently the skill UI is a good example of how they have to spend time to create an Elective Mode that creates a hassle for regular players, just so that they can have a system that tells new players which skill to put on which button. In addition to that, those 'new' players will become experienced players and despise this system later down the road.
How exactly are they going to 'get in your way'? Are the tooltips on your screen so big that they get in the way of your mouse clicks? Why point to something such as the skill UI, which is OBVIOUSLY in its first iteration, as evidence? You know it's not final. For christ's sake, there's elements that overlap and obscure others.
So again, how exactly are you being inconvenienced by these measures?
First, you cannot deny that they are putting effort and time towards this goal of having a guided experience. I'm not saying it's bad, but it's overly done, and a lot of this effort i feel is going to be a little wasted.
The simplified tool tips for example, if you are an experienced rpg player, but never touched diablo, never followed the beta like we are doing right now, what would your first thought be when you see those tool-tips (punch the enemy hard)? would you know if there's actually an option to toggle that off? or press ctrl?
Currently there's people reporting of map markers showing on map telling you exactly where to go in a dungeon... do you really want that?
What's the fun in exploring if you are guided to the goal?
As for the UI, if they publish it through the beta patch, they are at least some what confident that this is the correct direction, which is to sacrifice usability for guided experience. And this should be where we need to get concerned. If this is the direction that they are going with, what other mechanism might they sacrifice in the future for the sake of making the game more guided/accessible for new players? Would it be worth it to make that sacrifice? In the long term?
To me, I would never agree to exchange gameplay/usability, for a more scripted guidance for new players. Because strong game features is key for a great game, and it is long term, but new players are not. New players will get experienced, and those features will serve little purpose to them.
And last but not least, we are all reasonable people having a reasonable discussion, please don't call people idiots.
Ok I watched this video but it seems the guide is only on the overworld map. It never seems to show up in the dungeons. Is there time stamp for when it is used in the dungeon?
Modern gamers are concidered idiots by the game designers. Back in the day you sat down and learned by playing and it was good! You didn't need a tutorial because it was all kind of self-explanatory (atleast the good ones were). Take a look at Egoraptor's sequelitis where he talks about Mega Man X, he really hits his head on the nail when it comes to modern game design (it's very funny too if you havn't seen it).
i dont think the complexity of the quest have anything to do with appealing to casual players, ill use the quest as an example.. its not what is written in the quest that appeals casuals, but if a big fuckin arrow guided you, not on the map but on the actual screen that would be a better example, but saying ohh
New Objective: Find Adria's Hunt
Objective Complete!
New Objective: Search Adria's Hunt
Objective Complete!
New Objective: Enter the hidden cellar
Objective Complete!
New Objective: Explore the hidden cellar
is appealing to casuals that isnt necessarily true, its simple yes, but just cuz you find her hut does not mean you need to search it, you could find it and bomb it or find it and walk away, personally i dont care if it said find her hut then enter it etc.. i sure wouldnt want it to say
New Objective: Proceed along the asymmetrical path, evidentally manufacturing your vision into discovering a dispensary.
The kiddy tooltips such as punch someone hard, i think thats way to casual, even a casual player would want to know some sort of number that it generates.. like how hard?, 10%? 20%? 150%? i dont think you need to be a veteran to know, okay that punch does more damage than punch someone hard by 110%
The problem is idiots love to pretend that every single change they don't like is directly caused by Blizzard's policy of including everyone within their development considerations. It's a completely shallow, idiotic argument that people latch onto because they either don't like a (usually VERY intelligent and warranted) design decision, or they feel like they're no longer the beautiful and unique hardcore snowflakes they thought they were, with developers' attention all to themselves.
The most ironic thing? The people who frequently think of themselves as the ones with the most "mature" taste in gaming and experienc, are frequently the most intellectually and developmentally stunted when it comes to consideration for others in gaming.
WOAHH! easy there in regards to calling others idiots because they dont enjoy the simplifying of the game they love isnt the best way to approach something.. someone has a right to be upset that a game goes past its point to be simplistic, you dont need to be.. hmm i wont use casual since that upsets you.. a newer player to a game to think, for example a new, skill thunder punch is to simple by only saying a skill that punches hard, sure you can turn it off but seriously there is a difference between new player and ultimately incoherent and inadequate.
i do have to agree with you that people do throw around the term "casual player" in such a way that it comes across negative and they are the bane of the hardcore gamers existence, some things dont need to be complained about but some things can also be adressed and you can still be upset about it without being flamed for bearing some emotions towards the subject
For me that example can relate to this game and the way it works now. Now I know that most people will get to their personal favorite ability and be the end of it. This is a great thing. The one thing they have done is make that you learn about your spells and who the other runes work along the way. That is an amazing concept to really help players learn how runes work by slowly introducing them to the players.
This allows players to get more time with each rune, as they level up. Not just get all the choices at once and then stick to their favorite. Now they might have found they like another rune from the one they had their heart set on. The game educates you by limiting your options, you will learn what choices you have because they are fed to you slowly.
To me that is much more like a Megaman feature which improves the way the game progress rather than getting all your options and choices by 30.
I actually said I wouldn't call their actions as "catering to casuals" in my original post. I simply pointed some of the signs showing their effort of making a guided gameplay experience, (the step by step quest objective, the simplified tool tips, and now the locked skill categories). I believe they are overly done, and they've put too much emphasis on it, and wasting their resources. Because anyone that spends 60 dollars is going to want to learn about the game, and once they learn it, those guiding features will become an annoyance to them (and you agree with me with the tool-tips).
And to Engagequadlaser, not all of us are like that. I for one am just concerned that these many many guiding features (who knows what else they have in store) are going to get in the way of our regular gameplay. Currently the skill UI is a good example of how they have to spend time to create an Elective Mode that creates a hassle for regular players, just so that they can have a system that tells new players which skill to put on which button. In addition to that, those 'new' players will become experienced players and despise this system later down the road.
Fuck man, so glad to have watched this. Just yesterday at work I was talking to my buddy about the new rune system changes. I brought up the point of why not just have it explained in a game manual? The thing that I cannot understand is that; all new players inevitably will become an experienced player. They will play, figure things out, and become experienced. Experienced players will NEVER revert to being a new player. So by this logic ultimately the majority of players will be experienced. Why not cater to this? Blizzard emphasizes so heavily on pick up and play and simple to figure out, yet within a week at most people will have caught on to this shit and be wanting something more challenging and stimulating, not something dumbed down. And unfortunately you won't find something like that until an expansion. This is why WoW's sub's drop so dramatically and the hardcore players plow through new content in less than a month and then quit.
/rant
i agree that in some cases it goes to far but yet once again the quest simplicity has nothing to do with it, lol i suppose we are both fighting the same cause just opposite ends of it
Ok I just mentioned above how Diablo 3 is taking one concept of the Megaman play book, sequential development of power. In Megaman, you pick up powers and abilities that make you a better player. At first you only have one and later you get many. By the end of the game you've learned to use all of these abilities and it was because at some point you were forced to use one of them.
Now Blizzard has made rune stones more of a choice so you don't "need" any of them. Definitely a fact, I won't even argue it. What they did have was forced use that really didn't feel like a player choice. (e.i. Oh man I still only have a Crimson rune level 1, I guess I should just use level 4 Alabaster rune since I can't seem to get this item to drop.) That is actually a very aggravating choice, the good thing is that Blizzard will then have you learn a bit about the other runes and what they do, bad part is that it feels forced.
Now to you and me, the new system can feel forced, because we knew of a time before. For the vast majority it will feel like progression. New options, maybe new choices, and to add to it all this really pushes experimentation in the game.
Lets not lie and say that the previous rune system basically worked seamlessly in the game. It didn't, it was something that promoted leaving the game and looking at the options. Now what has Blizzard done, they've made it so you have the info in the game and you are slowly introduced to new abilities, which means you can see how they work gradually and organically. You're not learning from a website how the spell works, you are learning because it is all you have, or the newest option you obtained.
That is much more Megaman like and one of the reason's it is a great game, I think this game has taken a very solid concept and adapted it to a A-RPG format.
Edit: that megaman vid is so true.
Isendims#1577
hah probably, I just feel that those D3 quest objectives update like "do this, now do this, now do this..." handholding the player every step of the way... and I find that kind of annoying.
I've recently been playing d2, and it was just "Search for this at there." Granted, that wasn't a good way to go either, but D3 seems to have jumped on the other extreme, and that's why I readily notice it.
For that particular quest, all you need is probably:
Search Adria's Hunt and Explore the hidden cellar
How exactly are they going to 'get in your way'? Are the tooltips on your screen so big that they get in the way of your mouse clicks? Why point to something such as the skill UI, which is OBVIOUSLY in its first iteration, as evidence? You know it's not final. For christ's sake, there's elements that overlap and obscure others.
So again, how exactly are you being inconvenienced by these measures?
The video actually explains why they DON'T have it in a game manual... because it's better to teach as you play...
Yes, eventually everyone will be experienced. By that point, there will be NO MORE TOOLTIPS, and they can go into elective mode if they want. So again, how exactly are YOU being hurt by their decisions to provide some help for newer players? Help that you're QUICKLY going to blast through and probably never have to deal with again.
All I see is another unfounded whine post about "wahhhhhh! wahhhhh! catering to casuals! How? Umm... I don't know..."
You make a few valid points. The way the runes were most recently definitely would not have worked, however the original unattenuated rune system I feel is fine. Where I disagree with you is giving a player access to something to make it easier for them, which is essentially what you are saying. Just because it may take time to get a drop you want doesn't mean that it should just be given to you by default for playing (via leveling up) Diablo 2 is about itemization, working to hunt for a new rune to make one of your abilities more powerful was another very rewarding form of progression in a game where end game can become very tedious very fast without any raids like WoW. There were many ways in which you could acquire a rune without having it drop for you; either it drops for a friend and they give it to you, you trade for it, buy it on the AH. All of these elements have essentially been removed. Runes could have held valuable in the economy and possibly made you real money via the RMAH. Yes it may be frustrating hunting endlessly for an item but thats really what Diablo is about, and it makes it FEEL that much better when you are finally rewarded with it vs just being given it by default. This comes back to my other central point which is Blizzard neglects the psyche of their player in recent designs, in my opinion. I will always get feeling of much greater accomplishment having to work for and manipulate in some way (via farming or haggling in a trade) to get my item, vs just playing the game and having it automatically given to me. Leveling in Diablo isn't hard. Hell and Inferno might be much harder respectively vs the difficulties in D2, but hitting the level cap will not be a hard feat to accomplish, and in turn unlocking anything along the way will not be that hard either. To further relate it to your point, yes they may be making it more megaman-like, but the means by which they are doing so is not ideal. But then again, I also feel like learning it from a website isn't that big of a deal, its just when you short a player some experience to make it easier or spell it all out directly by giving it to them that irritates me.
ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh okay well the example given makes a lot of sense why you could not enjoy the hand holding, yaa it does suck but that topic is hard to determine whether or not blizz is trying to simplify for newer gamers or just what the norm is but i get your point, i do wish things were different but i cant change them i can only enjoy the fact that D3 is slowly but surely coming along
Yea, except for that new skill UI lol!
Isendims#1577
lmao yeaa they need to fix that skill UI, the passive UI is bad, but call me weird i dont mind it lmao, i think i just like seeing the potential passives i can get just on one easy to see page.. with that said the UI still blows
Thank you for sharing this video. So many good points there. It actually made me realize a lot of what I have been missing in games lately, and pointed out how annoying all those tips are during gameplay. Such a good video.
Uhm Well the UI BLOWS CHUNKS, The way they sorted the skills and everything is just terrible. without "whine" threads they'd say oh look no ones complained and it's awesome lets leave it. Then we all get fucked. so thank these "whine" Threads for getting things changed.
Second To an earlier post you made, I have no idea why everyone who says Casuals has to be a "hardcore", and masochistic asshole, I say casuals as someone who's going to pick up their first arpg and play it for a few months. They are casual, i.e they play it casually and at leisure not like most of us here on this forum will do. To say we're all stupid for saying a game is making things for casual players is idiotic in itself. You can't deny the fact that they've made certain aspects of the game easier for the masses. Just look at Normal, Nightmare, Hell, and Inferno. They made normal so easy a baby could play it. So they then added Inferno to balance out with something only hardcore players will do. So clearly they are catering to casuals here. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, I'm just pointing out that it is a true statement. They've purposely made the game easier. Simple as that.
First, you cannot deny that they are putting effort and time towards this goal of having a guided experience. I'm not saying it's bad, but it's overly done, and a lot of this effort i feel is going to be a little wasted.
The simplified tool tips for example, if you are an experienced rpg player, but never touched diablo, never followed the beta like we are doing right now, what would your first thought be when you see those tool-tips (punch the enemy hard)? would you know if there's actually an option to toggle that off? or press ctrl?
Currently there's people reporting of map markers showing on map telling you exactly where to go in a dungeon... do you really want that?
You can actually see it here, on Kagekaze's playthrough, at the last 5 minute, you can see an arrow telling you which way to go to get to the Royal Crypt. It was not there in prior patches.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJZJsJSDOkc&feature=plcp&context=C36617dbUDOEgsToPDskJ9O8dBReKAeBy3FOJIH6cp
What's the fun in exploring if you are guided to the goal?
As for the UI, if they publish it through the beta patch, they are at least some what confident that this is the correct direction, which is to sacrifice usability for guided experience. And this should be where we need to get concerned. If this is the direction that they are going with, what other mechanism might they sacrifice in the future for the sake of making the game more guided/accessible for new players? Would it be worth it to make that sacrifice? In the long term?
To me, I would never agree to exchange gameplay/usability, for a more scripted guidance for new players. Because strong game features is key for a great game, and it is long term, but new players are not. New players will get experienced, and those features will serve little purpose to them.
And last but not least, we are all reasonable people having a reasonable discussion, please don't call people idiots.
Ok I watched this video but it seems the guide is only on the overworld map. It never seems to show up in the dungeons. Is there time stamp for when it is used in the dungeon?
This is win. So is megaman.