I think the system as it is should stay, with skill variations unlocking by level, but that all the rune skills should receive a slight nerf to make room for the addition I'm about to propose...
I think they should add a runestone-style item that could be gathered from drops, with 7 (or however many) ranks. Just the one variety in 7 ranks, and it buffs the skill it's socketed into by an amount determined by it's rank. That solves the problem of having too many types of runes AND the issue with the tooltips, whilst keeping the random drop chance that some people seemed to love so much. It makes build customisation possible without any grinding at all but leaves the grinding aspect in for optimisation, and doesn't have the weakness of having to "exercise" a skill in order to make it stronger. Removing the rune from a skill could damage it, lowering it's effectiveness by downgrading it to a lower rank. Removing a rank 1 rune destroys it.
(example: WDs aoe slow/damage skill that makes hand come of from the ground, its srsly op when playing. expecialy whit the +damage rune.)
That is very true, at the beginning I was planning on select only damaging skills, but I soon noticed that this I would be way too exposed to danger.
My favorite spell is plague of toads, and it has a great synergy with Grasp of the Deads : more aoe slow => more toads reaching targets = win.
I'm not convinced by the system as it is right now.
To my point of view, and to be on par with Blizzard, I think that every Spell Rune that is automatically unlock should just "Transform" the spell, modifying it's effect, but not making it more powerful (ie : no more damage, just elemental addition). Additionnally, they should put the Runes as items back, only one Rank (or 2, but not 7 as it was before), very loooooowww droprate, that make spell more powerful again.
So the spell morphing is a two times operation :
- first you unlock every form of all of your spell automatically, as you level up through Normal to Hell (or Nightmare ?)
- second you look for the Runes-as-items that make your spell more powerful (extra very low chance to drop in Nightmare, very very low chance to drop in Hell, low chance to drop in Inferno)
This way, you're able to experiment with each of the spell aspects, you can also enjoy "100%" of the game, in the way that every effect is at disposal, even for the more "casual" player (that blizzard want to take care of), but for the more hardcores of us, it's still possible to "tweak" or "enhance" our builds, by searching those Runes items. And the "Inventory mass storage problem" is still solved (as there is only one or two ranks, and the drop rate is low enough to not flood the market, at least for the first 6 months).
It's kind of boring if the skill's nature is simply changed. I mean a lot of builds would use 2, 1, or even 0 stones because the skill at its core is designed to already be useful enough to pick over other skills, and if that system were to be put in place, why wouldn't you get rid of runes entirely and just add 5 additional skills per original skill in place of said runes, it would essentially be the same thing O.o
and if that system were to be put in place, why not just have more skills doing the same things the runes change about them, without the runes entirely, in stead O.o
I see your point, but as it is now, and as it's been already stated by some, SpellRunes are actually no more than "Additionnal Spells".
I agree with you on the fact that they could just remove the notion of "Spell Runes" and names them "Spells" instead. Then if you put back the runes as I see them, we just get back on the previous system, except that there isn't 7 ranks of runes, but just one or two.
The runes all empower the skill as the system stands. Some change the effect but if I'm not mistaken they all increase the effectiveness over the original plain skill one way or another. The first rune you unlock for any given skill seems to have once been the crimson rune, for example, which basically upped the power of the existing skill (though it may be another rune). IE instead of shooting once you shoot 3 poison darts. Instead of casting an AOE spell that deals some damage, you cast an aoe that does (in the beta ridiculously different) powerful damage. Even in the old rune system (and most likely in this one) where a rune changes the way a skill works entirely, it would still be granted a higher damage coefficient most of the time for starters, if not just given a larger radius or a secondary effect like a snare etc.
I don't understand why we'd need to remove that added power, it'd make runes next to pointless.
I think they should hold onto runes for starters because they help organize the other 4/5 different reworking of the skill they come with. Each rune type has a common theme, some almost always reduce the cost of spells or grant you additional resources. Some just usually increase the flat damage of the spell. Others tend to not be quite as easy to categorize, but they're still recognizable like adding duration to skills or giving them an added snare/stun utility or radius/delay etc.
If we didn't have the runestones we'd be looking at 4 times the skills for every non passive skill, quite a "nightmarish point of comparison" for starters, not to mention much more bland and unexciting.
Not trying to spam but it is true that it's a good idea. I hope people keep discussing this to make sure we don't find any drawbacks and maybe start something, despite the fact that we were boldly told the current system is in its "final" form.
All in all, discussing is a cool to get the time rolling, and it's always interesting to see people's opinions (some of you are so much creative, that's brilliant sometimes :P).
But I think that :
- dfans.com is not the place to discuss at if you want Blizzard to be aware of the debate (though they probably browse every major community website's forums),
- I hope that they won't revamp the system one more time for now, maybe in a future expansion pack (as they regularly do for WoW for example), 'cause I'm dying waiting for the game to be released xd !
To go back on the debate, I think the major "drawback" (from Blizzard point of view at least) is that if you're able to choose the order in which you unlock the Spell Runes, you won't "enjoy 100% of the game" (you'll focus on YOUR build, YOUR prejudice (is it the word ? :x) and potentially miss cool and effective Spell Runes effects that you did not choose in the first place). To force the unlock order is a way for them to hopefully make players experiment with all effects until they reach lvl 60, and THEN choose which skills suit better for their gameplay, once you've potentially tested all of them.
Well, that should be up to the player not forced down their throats. With that said almost all of our time will be spent at 60 anyways so it's not a huge deal.
I don't know about you guys but half the fun of the game (at first) is going to experiment and feel/map out all the runes anyways as I play through, even if they don't stand out to me at first.
I think that this is an awesome and simple idea! It seems like a good start in finding a compromise between a degree of commitment to a character build, and more open customisation.
Also, because you choose what runes you want to unlock as you level up, there's still that feeling of making important customisation decisions with each level, while not permanently hamstringing you, since you will eventually unlock all options when you're 60, anyway. And you'll unlock all the ones you really want before then, too.
Although in the end everyone has the same runes just like before
I can't see why everyone would have the same (Spell) Runes once lvl 60... it all depends on the gameplay you are looking for... some may prefer survivability, other would focus on AoEs, or attack speed, or...
Maybe did I misandurstand what you said, but the system as it is now has nothing to do with the choice of the Runes, in the end game.
The major drawback is the lack of feel to get better. You are just given every spell and every spell runes as you level, you aren't able to choose which effect to set in the first place (due to forced unlock order), and once you've reached lvl 60, there is no more progression Skills side : you just, as it was in D2, have to run to grab some gear.
Another thing to note, if it hasn't been yet, is that these points are different from traditional "talent points" in that you accumulate all the skill runes eventually one way or another and so they wouldn't have that problem of players taking all their "points out of arcane missile and placing them in arcane orb" etc.
There was something like this brought up in the Bnet forums. They need to do something to allow for more character progression and character customization. I haven't read too much into gems and such though.
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I think they should add a runestone-style item that could be gathered from drops, with 7 (or however many) ranks. Just the one variety in 7 ranks, and it buffs the skill it's socketed into by an amount determined by it's rank. That solves the problem of having too many types of runes AND the issue with the tooltips, whilst keeping the random drop chance that some people seemed to love so much. It makes build customisation possible without any grinding at all but leaves the grinding aspect in for optimisation, and doesn't have the weakness of having to "exercise" a skill in order to make it stronger. Removing the rune from a skill could damage it, lowering it's effectiveness by downgrading it to a lower rank. Removing a rank 1 rune destroys it.
My favorite spell is plague of toads, and it has a great synergy with Grasp of the Deads : more aoe slow => more toads reaching targets = win.
I'm not convinced by the system as it is right now.
To my point of view, and to be on par with Blizzard, I think that every Spell Rune that is automatically unlock should just "Transform" the spell, modifying it's effect, but not making it more powerful (ie : no more damage, just elemental addition). Additionnally, they should put the Runes as items back, only one Rank (or 2, but not 7 as it was before), very loooooowww droprate, that make spell more powerful again.
So the spell morphing is a two times operation :
- first you unlock every form of all of your spell automatically, as you level up through Normal to Hell (or Nightmare ?)
- second you look for the Runes-as-items that make your spell more powerful (extra very low chance to drop in Nightmare, very very low chance to drop in Hell, low chance to drop in Inferno)
This way, you're able to experiment with each of the spell aspects, you can also enjoy "100%" of the game, in the way that every effect is at disposal, even for the more "casual" player (that blizzard want to take care of), but for the more hardcores of us, it's still possible to "tweak" or "enhance" our builds, by searching those Runes items. And the "Inventory mass storage problem" is still solved (as there is only one or two ranks, and the drop rate is low enough to not flood the market, at least for the first 6 months).
What d'you think ?
I agree with you on the fact that they could just remove the notion of "Spell Runes" and names them "Spells" instead. Then if you put back the runes as I see them, we just get back on the previous system, except that there isn't 7 ranks of runes, but just one or two.
I don't understand why we'd need to remove that added power, it'd make runes next to pointless.
If we didn't have the runestones we'd be looking at 4 times the skills for every non passive skill, quite a "nightmarish point of comparison" for starters, not to mention much more bland and unexciting.
But I think that :
- dfans.com is not the place to discuss at if you want Blizzard to be aware of the debate (though they probably browse every major community website's forums),
- I hope that they won't revamp the system one more time for now, maybe in a future expansion pack (as they regularly do for WoW for example), 'cause I'm dying waiting for the game to be released xd !
To go back on the debate, I think the major "drawback" (from Blizzard point of view at least) is that if you're able to choose the order in which you unlock the Spell Runes, you won't "enjoy 100% of the game" (you'll focus on YOUR build, YOUR prejudice (is it the word ? :x) and potentially miss cool and effective Spell Runes effects that you did not choose in the first place). To force the unlock order is a way for them to hopefully make players experiment with all effects until they reach lvl 60, and THEN choose which skills suit better for their gameplay, once you've potentially tested all of them.
Also, because you choose what runes you want to unlock as you level up, there's still that feeling of making important customisation decisions with each level, while not permanently hamstringing you, since you will eventually unlock all options when you're 60, anyway. And you'll unlock all the ones you really want before then, too.
Maybe did I misandurstand what you said, but the system as it is now has nothing to do with the choice of the Runes, in the end game.
The major drawback is the lack of feel to get better. You are just given every spell and every spell runes as you level, you aren't able to choose which effect to set in the first place (due to forced unlock order), and once you've reached lvl 60, there is no more progression Skills side : you just, as it was in D2, have to run to grab some gear.