D3 Skill Mechanics Destroy Replayability?

  • #1
    Hey all,

    Long time Diablo 2 player here to pose a serious question.

    I believe that with the new D3 skill system, the replayability we found in D2 will not exist in D3. The tree feels very WoWesque. There seems to be no choice of skills, but rather, choice of active skills. The only customization that comes into play is the rune system, which just further enhances the skill's abilities or bonus effects.

    One of the best aspects of D2, in my opinion, is the choices you made that ultimately determined your character. These choices were mainly:
    1. What do you put your stat points into?
    2. What do you put your skill points into?

    People complained because the community got caught up in the meta-game (saving your skill points for allocation at higher level). Blizzard answered with its best idea: respec scrolls after normal, nightmare and hell difficulties were completed. This allowed players to use their points in the early skills, mid skills and finally their "final" builds that they had planned since the conception of the character. Blizzard also responded to the cries of "that skill is useless" by providing the skill trees with 'synergies'. This gave passive bonuses to the skills around it, so that using points in skills you liked had some benefits down the road.

    This is a hack and slash series. What gives the game replayability is creating new characters and trying to create that ultimate build. Even if you find it, or something close to it, you always think there is something better out there and try again. I remember I must have made like, 30 Hardcore Diablo 2 Necromancers over the course of my play. I don't regret any one of them. With this skill system, however, I don't see the need to EVER create more than 1 of any class, given they are not Hardcore toons and die. ( I plan on playing 100% hardcore, btw.)

    1. So...does this new skill system, in your opinion, kill the replayability (I'm talking years worth, like we got out of Diablo 2) ? Or, am I being hypocritical of a game that I have waited a decade for?

    2. Also, would you prefer the current D3 skill system setup, or a system similar to late D2 where trees had synergies, respec scrolls were available etc?

    Thank you for reading :P
  • #2
    because artificially increasing playtime by limiting player choice and flexibility is a creative way of enhancing gaming experience.

    we all know how much replayability RTS, FPS, and arcade fighting games have and that they force you to stick with one faction, weapon, character right? oh wait....
    -------------------------------------------------------
  • #3
    I dont think it kills the replayablity factor. There are still five unique classes to play as well as several different modes. As on of the blue posters mentioned, not everyone likes the leveling aspect of the game. I think they are trying to gear the game so that you spend more time exploring and discovering story and environment than rushing throught the levels again and again to find the best build.
  • #4
    Have you played the beta? It's pretty fun, and the new approach to abilities hasn't turned me off from playing it over and over again.
  • #5
    Hey look, yet another post wanting D2's garbage in D3. 1st post garbage at that.
  • #6
    I believe there was a blue post on this very topic that Blizz has absolutely no qualm if the skill system being what it is now kills replayability a little bit. They believe that the new skill system makes the game more fun and that they do not want to artificially extend the life of the game by forcing people to have to pay to respec or build entirely new characters to try out new builds or build variants. I think the exact words were "We're grateful to the lessons learned from the 90's but we're just not into that kind of masochistic system any longer".

    Frankly I agree, I've played action and hack n slash rpg's since the 90's and as sentimental as the skill tree system is, the D3 system is much more favorable to me in the respect of the times I was curious about trying out a certain build for curiosity's sake but didn't want to spend the hours and days to actually level and build a character to try it out effectively.
    What are you willing to sacrifice?
  • #7
    Quote from Doez

    Hey look, yet another post wanting D2's garbage in D3. 1st post garbage at that.


    Oh doez.... while we disagree on most topics I think we are in agreement that most of these 1st day members are ruining this forum. AT least until the contest ends and they shrink back into the shadows and never contribute again ...

    Maybe we should do the opposite of them and just dissapear now to return when its over. Its not liek we have a fuck of a chance at winning the key anyways ... with the 20,000 new forum members that will sign up over this contest.
  • #8
    ohmaygawd not this thread again. Please for the love of Diablo, search the forums if you want to complain about this, there's about 4 hundred threads.

    More on topic: There's so many good arguments for the skill system in diablo 3, you just CAN'T argue against it. Your main point; Replayability. Leveling new characters because you are forced to, because you made a mistake with the broken stat allocation system and skill trees did NOT contribute to this. Look back to playing D2. You could level to 85 in no time. This was not why you kept playing. Instead it was the item hunt. If replay ability to you = forcing people to level characters, when most didn't like having to level that 3rd amazon because they screwed up, then that's fine. But don't try to force it on the rest of us.

    The fact is D3 has thousands upon thousands of more, viable, and different builds than D2 ever had. Hacking and more importantly duping will be very limited in D3, causing those super rare legendaries to actually BE super rare, thus dramatically improving the item hunt from D2. D3 will give you the ability to farm the entire game, reducing the mundane task of having someone teleport to Baal, open portal, kill and repeat.

    TLDR; Your kidding yourself if you think *having* to level characters was why D2 was fun. D2 was fun because of the chance of really cool, rare items dropping, and actually playing your character. Just because you can switch your skills doesn't mean you have instant access to every build. Every build is going to need, for the most part, different gear, different runes, different gems. It has replay ability, more so than any game I've seen.
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChB2_IPc-HVXbi0jS1Riljg
    ^ YouTube.Com/IceBleuGaming ! It's a thing! Check it oooout!
  • #9
    Quote from ubeRom

    I believe that with the new D3 skill system, the replayability we found in D2 will not exist in D3. The tree feels very WoWesque. There seems to be no choice of skills, but rather, choice of active skills. The only customization that comes into play is the rune system, which just further enhances the skill's abilities or bonus effects.


    Blizz did away with those systems because ppl were just dumping points into 1 or 2 things rather than actually having a spread. D3 has taken the option of mass point allocation away leaving much more energy to be used perfecting the use of the skill makeups (builds). You can still make characters that are aspect focused, like healmonks and tankbarbs just not as much tinkering to be had with stats/skills. Personally im loving the new proposed skill and attribute systems, allows me to focus on what skills/runes are going to be the best for my play style.



    This is a hack and slash series. What gives the game replayability is creating new characters and trying to create that ultimate build. Even if you find it, or something close to it, you always think there is something better out there and try again. I remember I must have made like, 30 Hardcore Diablo 2 Necromancers over the course of my play. I don't regret any one of them. With this skill system, however, I don't see the need to EVER create more than 1 of any class, given they are not Hardcore toons and die. ( I plan on playing 100% hardcore, btw.)


    Even in D2 after patch you could just sit on one char and respec him hundreds if not thousands of times if you wanted to. No need to create more than one of each character either way. This system just puts more focus on other areas. There will still be a multitude of ways you can stand out from the crowd, if thats what you're aiming for. However, just like in D2 there will be many similar builds also, Its really up to the player.


    1. So...does this new skill system, in your opinion, kill the replayability (I'm talking years worth, like we got out of Diablo 2) ? Or, am I being hypocritical of a game that I have waited a decade for?

    2. Also, would you prefer the current D3 skill system setup, or a system similar to late D2 where trees had synergies, respec scrolls were available etc?


    Nah im really excited to see how the new system goes, it really sounds like its going to make the game better imo. Makes standing out in pvp a real challenge.
  • #10
    I really do agree, unfortunately. When I heard about no skilll point allocation it made me extremely sad /: but, I kind of got used to it. It's definitely not my favorite implementation into the new game. I wish they still had skill trees. I loveeeed the skill trees, regardless of what Blizzard says, that was a really cool way of looking at the skill system. I loved it so much, but then they switched it up, and I actually gave up on Diablo for a little while :P But I had to have hope in Blizzard to make the best game possible and so I will do so. Just trust Blizzard, because they've given us no reason to distrust them yet. If they do, then oh well o:
  • #11
    Like the new system, but would rather they make it a little more troublesome to change skill points.

    Was starting a new strafezon on D2X untwinked, dejavu the boring lvling.

    In another way the lvl of the runes probably will equate to the mutiple skill points.
  • #12
    Do not forget that blizzard has plans to let us sell whole characters on the auction house. I believe this will be enough incentive to those who like rerolling to do so. With the items you find during the leveling + the value of the character once level 60 it should be a decent way to farm for gold.

    And as far as D2 is concerned, it usually took only a few, most of the time boring, hours of rush to get a fresh 80 character to try a new build on. Not to mention that at some point it took 10 minutes to get a GRush and then an hour of uber tristram to get to 90. Most of the time it took to try something else came from getting the right gear, and this will still be the case with Diablo 3.

    As for me, I believe most of the replayability will come from hardcore. I'm not really a fan of hardcore mode but I know I'll enjoy trying to get a char as far as I can once in a while ;)
  • #13
    Quote from Butchkun

    Do not forget that blizzard has plans to let us sell whole characters on the auction house. I believe this will be enough incentive to those who like rerolling to do so. With the items you find during the leveling + the value of the character once level 60 it should be a decent way to farm for gold.

    And as far as D2 is concerned, it usually took only a few, most of the time boring, hours of rush to get a fresh 80 character to try a new build on. Not to mention that at some point it took 10 minutes to get a GRush and then an hour of uber tristram to get to 90. Most of the time it took to try something else came from getting the right gear, and this will still be the case with Diablo 3.

    As for me, I believe most of the replayability will come from hardcore. I'm not really a fan of hardcore mode but I know I'll enjoy trying to get a char as far as I can once in a while ;)


    I don't think they will do this in the end... If they do... i just simply don't think it will be worth it. I have a feeling with help you should be able to max a character in at most 50 hours.
  • #14
    Quote from Snaks42

    There's so many good arguments for the skill system in diablo 3, you just CAN'T argue against it.
    ...
    If replay ability to you = forcing people to level characters, when most didn't like having to level that 3rd amazon because they screwed up, then that's fine. But don't try to force it on the rest of us.


    I don't know if I should laugh or cry when I read stuff like this: "I'm gonna try to force my opinion on you, but you better not try to force yours on me!"

    On Topic: I really don't see D3 having anywhere near the longevity that D2 had. This isn't automatically a bad thing, though. That leaked Blizzard roadmap from a while back had 2 expansions slated at 18 month intervals after the initial release date. This should at least keep the game interesting for 4 or 5 years which isn't too bad. I don't expect D3 to enjoy the same sort of 10+ year run that D2 had, but D2 was such a phenomenal game for its time that Blizzard would be hard pressed to match that success no matter what they put into D3. At the end of the day, it looks to be a fun game that will last as long as it last and then Blizzard will get us to buy whatever their next big thing is.
  • #15
    Lets look at the replayability that can be done with the system.

    5 character classes. So thats 5 play throughs.
    Next is blacksmithing and jewelry crafting. I guess you can piggy back those on your 5 characters.

    I don't know all the details but maybe you're going to want your guy to have a different name. With the new naming system they pushed out does that name carry to all your characters or do you get to name each one individually? I would assume individually.

    Also it could be for inventory reasons. We don't know if theres going to be another cube or something similiar. That extra main inventory space on other classes could be useful if your shared stash is full.

    At the bare minimum you'll have 5 play throughs but if they add ANYTHING that is permanent to character customization that'll cause another play through. I think we're going to have to wait and see on this one.

    But think about it. When you played d2 did you have 5 geared guys or more? I can remember 2; a sorc and a paladin and a barb I could never hit my dreams with. Yea its fun watching levels fly on up but with this system you're going to tweak your main(s) and always be in MF mode at the end game.

    Off topic I can't wait for the 2nd play through. It hopefully will be super fast and fun since I'll be saving items for that next class.
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  • #16
    If you want maximum replayability, play hardcore mode :)

    You will be rerolling and experiencing the game many times, with many different builds.

    I do think this new skill system will lessen the replayability, BUT, only if you play softcore mode. Because when you hit level 60 with a character, you wont ever need to make the same type again. In Diablo 2 you had reasons to level up again because of new builds etc. Yes there are more builds in Diablo 3, but once you have a Lvl 60 softcore mode monk, you will have them all in the same character.

    But having in mind: The "end game" will be far more mixed and fun (no more doing only Baal runs), Farming trough ALL areas in Hell and Inferno (because champions and rare monsters gives the "best loot" now), with the promised jaw breaking challenge of Inferno. Because of that, the game could, and will, probably have a longer life span than Diablo 2, even for the softcore players. Only time will tell.
  • #17
    This old song and dance? ... again?

    This argument is getting tired, and it wasn't even compelling to begin with.

    Short answer:

    Builds in Diablo 2 were by and large 1 or 2 hit wonders. There were a couple exceptions but not many. Either way, you either:

    -Maxed a skill
    -Maxed a synergy
    -Put one point into a skill to get to either synergy or a used skill.

    Stat points did not provide replayability, customization, or anything positive to the game. You got str/dex for gear, then pumped vitatliy, period.

    Whereas... Diablo III gives you 30~ skills per class and allowed you to utilize 6 of those to their maximum potential. With 30 skill slots, 6 active skills, and 5 possible runes that leaves you with over a trillion options for each class, without even discussing passives.

    If you define replayability as having to re-roll the same class just to try a new spec.. then I guess I can't tangibly debate that. No, you won't have to do that in Diabo III. Sorry? >.>

    Long answer:

    http://www.diablofans.com/blog/181/entry-603-my-answer-to-diablo-vets-who-hate-diablo-iii/

    Did a whole blog about this and posted on the Diablo 3 forums a while ago about this very topic. Read, and be enlightened.
  • #18
    Being able to ruin your character to the point that you have to reroll isn't fun. Having to look up how to play the class just to be able to play for 2 levels without ruining it is horrible design.

    A good game lets the player experiment, without punishing them too harshly for mistakes they couldn't have possibly known about. A good game also shows the player how to play by letting them play, not explicitly telling them.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FpigqfcvlM This is the best video I've ever found on game design, and why that kind of stuff makes the game worse, even if it is a good game. Warning for strong language.
  • #19
    This system takes the frustration potential from us. Do you remember what happened after a missclick in D2....yerah, nothing! Playing all up to 75 and then a missclick......

    You will have so many more choice for your char to make than in D2, runes with their levels, itmes, skill combinations, passives.

    There is much much more diversity than in D2, you HAVE to see this finally :-)
  • #20
    It seems like alot of people just want Diablo 2.5.

    I want something different, I really found stat allocation boring in diablo 2. I just had enough str for equipment requirements and the rest was vitality. Definetly not something I'll miss.
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